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It's official then. We'll agree to disagree and I won't call you a "punk ass" either. :o)
I just read through the comments again and picked up one from Scott about the vigilante language actually being posted. I wasn't reading the MMJ discussions every 10 minutes so I thought I must have just missed those comments when the posts were removed.
Now that I've thought about it a bit more I too would like to know if there really were comments posted as Bob states;
"Cowards are talking about where Lisa lives. Cowards are talking about drive-by shootings, mass graves and heads being cut off."
If so, I'd like to know when criminal charges are being filed against the individuals who made these comments.
This language could be construed as nothing short of death threats. Such comments regardless of anonymous posting would almost certainly lead to criminal charges. The Pilot has our emails and required a phone number and phone call for verification so they could track us down.
With recent arrests around the country for so-called "facebook death threats" Many of which really were simply a joke gone wrong, I'd be surprised if someone really made these comments and if they did I'd be surprised that their contact info has not been turned over to the police.
Interesting to say the least.
I've said this in the past and I still fully stand behind my previous comments on the same issue 100%.
Some of us are employed in businesses where our personal opinions could be detrimental to our co-workers. I am personally employed in a business that relies partially on the real estate market. For instance my opinions on Steamboat 700 were not in line with our customers base. I'm sure my opinions on the subject would have alienated many of our customers.
That would be fine with me so long as I was the only one affected by my opinions. At this point in my life and my career, I don't have that liberty. If my opinions on any particular subject cause our customers who don't agree with me to take their business to our competition then my co-workers suffer financially from the loss of business.
I think the pilot needs to keep the anonymous posting. There are too many people in this small town whose opinions would not be stated if they had to declare who they were before posting. Their opinions need to be shared and taken into consideration just like any other.
I am in agreement with Bob regarding the personal attacks. I do think the anonymous posting allows people to hide behind a veil of secrecy and fire off comments without regard. I'm fairly center of the aisle and haven't been too interested the the MMJ discussion either way so I missed the vigilante language Bob repeated in his letter but I have seen many other personal attacks, just not quite to the extent of the vigilante language Bob mentions above.
For the record, I'm 100% for MMJ for people who use it as a medical remedy. I'm 100% against the people who've found loopholes to use it for recreational purposes. I firmly believe giving the product names like "Kandy Kush" does nothing to legitimize the MMJ business. If Pfizer, Bayer or any of the drug company put the word "Kandy" in the name of their latest pharmaceutical they would never be taken seriously. It would be banned from sale for fear that the word "Kandy" markets the product toward children. If the dispensaries want to be taken seriously they need to try to live by some similar rules of the road.
To finish up I believe the Pilot could be more vigilant about removing comments attacking other people instead of addressing the issues being discussed. I think the Pilot could have a system of discipline where they could place a hold on the individuals whose comments are repeatedly flagged for removal. Too many flags will get you a 30, 60, or 90 day "time out" for your 1st, 2nd and 3rd violation respectively. If there was fear of recourse for inflammatory statements posted on the site I believe people would think twice before firing off such comments and they would stick to arguing the merits of the issue being discussed.
Sled, personally, I'm not in the floodplain at my house west of town and we called them gulley washers (or gulley worshers depending on how far back in the hollers you lived) back when I was a kid in Tennessee and North Carolina. :)
I was over surveying the scene and visiting a friend at the Majestic Valley Townhomes on Tuesday afternoon. That's where I heard from my friend that Curt Weiss was laying blame on the Bald Eagle Lake. The comment was that the lake was emptying on it's eastern end into the ditch along US 40 and that ditch was carrying it right down along US 40 to the pond in front of the Christian center. Then I saw Hubiem say the same thing above and decided to explore the argument. I saw Sled's comment about people making alterations to berms along the river and I started thinking back to the mid to late 90's when the lake was a topic of discussion around town.
Then I found Vickies letter that stated among other things the lake would affect the floodplain and as a member of the Gravel Matrix Committee, I would assume her opinions (no pun intended) to hold some water so I decided to share her letter again.
It's just my personal opinion, but when I look at the lake I can't help but believe if it were still filled with dirt and gravel that the water would not flow as easily it does now. With the lake in place we have created a water delivery system that delivers water completely unimpeded 600-700 yards closer to the highway, businesses and residences than if the lake was not there at all.
4gen, If you read my post again I said if the fish dams are in fact causing back ups and overflow of the banks then the whole idea of engineering fish dams should be reconsidered. I never once said I supported them. In not so many words, I said I didn't believe they were large enough to cause problems once the water got to current levels. I still believe that. If you drop a 1 foot rock into 1.5 feet of rushing water you'll see a disturbance on the surface. If you drop the same 1 foot rock into 6-8 feet of water you won't see any effect on the rivers surface.
I've done a bit more research and even if the fish dams at Chuck Lewis were to cause overflows, that is on the other side of the railroad berm. I believe the entire flow of the river is constricted at the railroad bridge at the north end of Chuck Lewis so any overflow in the Chuck Lewis area caused by dams must reenter the riverbed before going under the railroad trestle. Thus, overflows at Chuck Lewis could not be contributing the the problems around the lake, the Christian center and the Majestic Valley Townhomes.
and the rest of the letter.
It scored poorly on air and water quality and land use compatibility.
What kind of message are we sending to other gravel pit operators, who are faced with all these regulations, by saying we should turn our head and approve this, since it will clean up somebody's eyesore?
Gravel pit operators will see this as a precedent and start digging up piles of gravel all over the county. The proposed Werner gravel pit, was denied due to the same issues that denied MacArthur's pit. The proposed More pit also has these same issues.
Anyone citing these same planning documents pleading for a denial of these pits would be hypocritical supporting MacArthur's proposal just because it would generate affordable housing, trails and a city park.
What are we doing? Selling our souls and our integrity? Constructing a gravel pit at the MacArthur site actually was presented as a creative alternative to denying the More pit site. Yet, these same issues were being used by the opposition.. If you oppose the More Pit because of visual impacts, land use compatibility, air and water quality issues, you cannot in good conscience support this proposal.
This brings us back to the issue of what do we do with this eyesore that has plagued the entrance to our community for so many years.
On many occasions, the County has asked Mr. MacArthur to discuss with them any reasonable solution to this problem.
If Mr. MacArthur is truly an altruistic individual and wants to clean up his act, he has the option of donating the existing gravel piles to the community. I am sure there are all kinds of creative ideas that don't involve huge profits from a gravel pit. Why should he profit from a mistake that left the community with this eyesore? Mr. MacArthur can still do the right thing without making a profit by selling gravel.
We should not compromise our planning documents to justify the end result of cleaning up this site. As you stated we need to come up with a solution that is a true benefit to the community.
What do you say, Mr. MacArthur?
Here's the letter to the editor
I am writing in response to the editorial in the Steamboat Pilot & Today concerning Ed MacArthur's potential plans to develop a gravel pit operation on his ski lake property.
I applaud MacArthur for his generosity in donating time, material and labor to our community. The ski jump is welcomed as a creative alternative to the standing gravel piles at his site. But, by no means, should this be a free pass to construct a gravel pit at the worst site proposed in Routt County history.
The editorial mentioned that three mounds of gravel are an eyesore on the gateway to the community. Can you imagine what a full-blown gravel pit would be? Mr. MacArthur, after knowing he couldn't sell the gravel, went ahead and dug the lake anyway and constructed the existing piles. This is his problem and not that of the community.
He is now discussing affordable housing, trail systems and city parks as a solution to his problem. In this case, I feel the end cannot justify the means. He could build houses and give them away but that would never justify this site as an acceptable place to mine gravel.
As a member of the Gravel Matrix Committee, we have spent years working on a document that would facilitate a just decision-making process for gravel pit sites. If this site was approved as an acceptable site, we might as well throw all of our planning documents out the window.
The statement that issues at the property have been put to rest or can be mitigated is a mistake. MacArthur has been before the Planning Commission twice and both times has been unanimously opposed. The Planning staff has informed the applicant that based on the planning documents, the proposed location is not appropriate for gravel mining at any scale.
The three major areas where the proposal conflicts with the Master Plan and Zoning Resolutions are visual impacts, land-use compatibility, and flood plain impacts.
There are also wildlife concerns. Because of the location of the proposed site these negative impacts are impossible to mitigate. The site is in close proximity to substantial residential and recreational uses. There are more than five times as many residences, motels, etc., than at any other existing or proposed gravel pit in Routt County.
The site is within 1.5 miles of the base of the ski area and adjoins the Legacy Ranch open space parcel owned by the city.
The west side adjoins the State Wildlife Area.
Noise from the crusher, wash plant, and backup alarms on trucks likely would be audible within nearby neighborhoods. On the gravel matrix score, it scored the worst possible score of all existing or proposed pits in visual impacts.
4gen, your original post mentioned only Tree Haus to 13th street. Considering where the issue is, Walton Creek and above, bringing the area between Tree Haus to the c-hole into the argument from an hydrological engineering perspective is a moot point.
Now that you've added some info about construction projects upstream and around the area in question, you've actually added something we can talk about. If you want to discuss engineering projects that affect the floodplain, Bald Eagle Lake is the largest project that has happened in that area in the last 30 years.
I'd have to say the fish dams and the work done at Chuck Lewis would do little to cause flooding over the river banks. Fish dams are engineered to make deeper pools at the lowest water levels of summer and winter allowing fish to have more habitat to survive the warm and low water levels in the summer and ice free water in the winter. Once the river level increases to a point where there is no pool-drop-pool-drop sequence to the downstream flow, in my personal and engineering opinion, fish dams do very little to raise the river levels at high water.
I can't say for certain because I haven't been out along the river in the Chuck Lewis area this spring. A walk through of the Chuck Lewis area would probably be in order just to be sure. If there are bank overflows in areas with Fish Dams, then I believe they should reconsider the fish dam engineering projects.
On to the next issue. Below is a letter to the editor posted in the Steamboat Today August 17, 2003. Specifically, note below the statement that the lake would cause floodplain issues. Being that this is the largest runoff we've had since the lake was dug, I think that one of Vickie Rozenzwigs many concerns is coming true. Curt Weiss has been around a couple more years than me and definitely has more experience with water issues in that particular area but I can't help but believe that it's simply not a good thing to see water running from the river into the lake and then out into the floodplain inundating drainage ditches with water that should still be in the river.
I would agree with Hubie on the issue of the C hole affecting flows that far upstream 4gen. I've been a river rat for 30 years. I've spent years of my life on the water kayaking, rafting and fly fishing. I also have an engineering degree and work experience in pipe and drainage ditch flow and fluid dynamics. To say that the C hole affects the flow above Walton Creek would be like saying the Hoover Dam and Lake Mead affects the rivers flow at Lees Ferry. That's not even possible or logical.
An obstruction added to the river will only affect the flow to a minute distance( a few inches at most) beyond the upstream most point of the flatwater pool created by the obstruction.
In other words, the C hole or any other obstruction would have to create a flatwater pool all the way to Walton Creek before it would affect the flow there. That's simply not the case.
I would also agree with Hubie on river spiking sledneck. The river does not as you say "spike up and down every day". It gradually raises and lowers with a smooth sinusoidal motion just like Hubie stated. The spike that the graph shows is an anomaly and and is probably just as Scott indicated the point when the Stagecoach reservoir filled. However, even as the reservoir filled, I would not expect to see it as a straight vertical line. I would think by the time the front of the "bubble" as we call it in the river community got to Steamboat it would be a little more gradual.
I also heard the same thing about Bald Eagle Lake. Water that was once in the river and should have remained in the river is flowing backward into the lake and inundating ditches with additional water they were not meant to carry. Just goes to show the issues we create when we decide to build things like man made lakes where there should be none.
jlc, now you are doing the same thing with my post. Reviewing plats is not the only job duty the county surveyor is required to perform. See the link below for a full description.
The county surveyor is an elected position required by the state constitution. If you want to gripe about the money county surveyors get paid then go gripe in Jackson County, Moffat County or Rio Blanco County where little or no development is occurring. They each have an elected surveyor too. Those are the guys who are getting paid to do even less than our county surveyor.
I don't personally know Mr. Moon either and I agree that cocaine use does not instill confidence. However, if you'll read my posts again, I never once mentioned Mr. Moon in either of my posts. My posts were about the job duties of the position not the person.
Everybody these days wants to jump on the bandwagon screaming that every elected official is robbing the country blind but nobody ever wants to acknowledge the salary paid to these officials saves money in the long run.
I just looked at the county records and 2100 hits came up under "plats" recorded in the last decade. If the "only" thing Mr. Moon did for the county was reviewing plats then that puts it at a little over $17 per plat. Hardly the highway robbery you are decrying.
You do realize that a doctor can get through med school faster than a person can get licensed as a Professional Land Surveyor don't you. You do realize that a real estate attorney can demand anywhere from $350-$600 or more an hour. If the county surveyor position eliminates a lawsuit every few years then it's well worth the expense.
If you read my post above you'll see the value jlc. By reviewing and approving every plat that arrives in the courthouse for recording the county surveyor mitigates boundary issues before they become a legal issue that would cost the county more money.
Last login: Wednesday, September 14, 2011
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