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Yeah enforcing current laws is a great idea, but that doesn't address private gun sales or gun shows. Rhys, I'm with you, glad Mark is on the lookout, constant vigilance is what is needed. And with Tomo and the Oath Keepers on board, I'm sleepin like a baby!
Allen, you say that you are not paranoid or delusional, yet your entire argument against any form of gun control is based on your irrational fear that the government will confiscate all guns. I'd say that's a paranoid delusion. You go on to say that you are just a guy who formulates an opinion based on facts. But then you refuse to accept the facts. Your proposed solution to gun crime is a mandatory death sentence carried out within one month of conviction. And you don't think it is delusional to believe that such a law would ever be enacted. Then you say people aren't intelligent enough to arm themselves, since the police can't protect them, and that is not paranoid? Again, your suggestion that the answer to the problem of gun crime is more guns, is absurd. The reason that there is so much gun crime in the inner city is because of exactly what you are suggesting that we all do. Don't trust that the police will protect society, arm yourself, and take the law into your own hands. Again, this is an illogical and absurd notion. This is exactly how a civilized society would degenerate into a lawless, chaotic nightmare that I don't think any of us would ever want to experience. Law and order is the backbone of any civilized society. If you don't trust the police, don't think there are enough police to respond in time, then focus your energy on that problem. Lobby for more police or what can be done to speed up response times instead of deciding that we should all arm ourselves and become judge, jury and executioner. That mentality is going backward, reverting back to the "old west." We need to move forward, not backward. Gun control measures, increased background checks and registration or licensing will not stop every gun crime, but it will make it much more difficult for criminals and the insane to get guns and will allow police to more accurately track the flow of guns and trace guns back to the dealer and or the perp. If you take away the paranoid delusion that gun control will lead to confiscation of all guns, then there would be no reason to oppose gun control measures.
Well Dan K at least you remain "true to form." You will find anything to argue about, even whether or not we are an advanced nation. Wow....then classic example of deflecting to abortion. Geez...how about climate change? Does that relate to abortion and gun laws too? Ken, even the police, who are highly trained, make mistakes. They undergo hours and hours of simulation training to differentiate between good guy and bad guy. Are you really saying that anyone, with zero training should be trusted to tell the difference and not shoot an innocent bystander or the victim? This scenario scares me, especially if there is the possibility of a bunch of people packin, much more than the extremely remote possibility that I would need a gun during the course of my daily life. After all, that's why we have police. I don't even trust that people can drive their cars safely and you have to take a test for that. You all like to talk about the crime rate in the inner city. This is a place where lots of folks are armed. Why? Because there aren't enough police to protect them and they don't trust the police. So....as you suggest....they take the law into their own hands and arm themselves. Gangster A gets ripped off or has some grievance and shoots gangster B. Gangster B's friends retaliate and shot one of gangster A's friends. Gangster A's friends then retaliate but also accidentally shoot an innocent bystander and a member of gang C. You get the picture. In more civilized neighborhoods we trust the police to protect us and don't go around playin hero John Wayne or shooting people we happen to disagree with or mistake for a perp. We need common sense gun laws that require extensive background checks for every transaction and extensive training and registration for concealed carry.
Interesting how Ken and Allen in particular, keep deflecting. They keep making a false assumption that someone is trying to take their guns away, or ban guns altogether. This is simply not the case, but a paranoid delusion, repeated over and over again by the NRA and the gun lobby to scare people into opposing any action to reduce gun violence. Every time you offer up a quote where someone says something like....oh. I wish I had a gun at home for self defense, you are implying that we, I, am opposed to that. We, I, am not. I am a gun owner and keep a gun in my home, but I don't go carrying it around in constant fear that I am going to be attacked, or that I'm going to be a John Wayne hero. I am opposed to the lack of gun control laws that make it easy for the mentally ill and criminals to get their hands on guns. You continue to bring up mental health, not guns as the issue. So just exactly what do you propose doing about mental heath issues. I'll tell you exactly what....NOTHING! That's what is so disturbing and disingenuous about this entire discussion. We CAN do something easily to make it more difficult to acquire a gun. There is little if anything that we can do about mental health issues. We all know that with republicans in congress, they will never spend one cent on anything related to health issues. So the argument suggesting that the answer to our problem of a 19 times greater rate of gun related deaths than any other advanced nation in the world, is to address mental heath issues, is simply a smoke screen, ridiculous, disingenuous and nothing more than a way to try and "deflect" the conversation away from anything to do with guns. The Oregon shooter's mother apparently knew her son had mental health issues, she herself was a "gun nut" and afraid that Obama was going to take her guns, and encouraged her son to learn to shoot. What more do you people need to know!
Agreed Pat, according to polling, the NRA does not represent the majority of it's membership, but rather a few fringe types and the gun industry. Every poll I've seen suggests that somewhere around 80% of the NRA membership supports universal background checks. And you're also correct that it is folks like Allen and some of the other commenters who simply refuse to accept fact, and or suffer from some paranoid delusion that the gubbamint is comin for their guns, or some equally bizarre conspiracy theory involving inner city gangs and liberals teaming up to..... what was that again Mark? Or what kind of twisted logic would lead someone to believe that a person is afraid of their shadow, won't defend themselves and wants to stop others from defending themselves because they don't feel the need to carry a gun around? Now that's twisted. All we want is the right, "right" to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness and not live in fear that some nut with a gun is going to take out his frustration by shooting up a school or movie theater. Then there's always the deflection....oh but the inner city. Did you know that the number of gun deaths due to gang violence and drug dealing in dwarfed by the number of gun deaths due to non gang or drug related plain old arguments? In the last 30 years a good guy with a gun has not stopped one mass shooting, and rather on at least two occasions came very close to shooting another innocent bystander by mistake. Then there's the argument that criminals won't obey gun laws so they are of no use. Ever think of all the other laws criminals don't obey. So should we just get rid of every law that criminals don't obey? Of course not. It's the shear number of guns in circulation that is the problem. There are always going to be crazy people and we have to make it much more difficult for them to get guns.
Allen, first of all I am not in any way afraid to defend myself, I just don't need a gun to do it. Secondly, when did I or anyone ever say we wanted to take away anyone's right to defend themselves? Where did this come from? What I said was we need mandatory background checks for all gun purchases, public or private. Latest Quinnipiac polling, 90% of GOP voters, 93% of independents, 98% of democrats approve of mandatory background checks for all gun purchases. The NRA and the gun lobby are not representing the will of the people, they are representing their own special interest. No need to start in putting words in my mouth or anyone else's. If you choose to live in constant fear and feel the need to arm yourself to the teeth and walk around with a gun 24/7 go ahead! No one is stopping you. So who is "uniformed, frightened, close minded and unwilling to accept any data given?" I especially get a kick out of the oft used "closed minded" argument used by those on the right. So if we don't accept your ridiculous, ill conceived notion, we are somehow "closed minded." Please.
Well Allen, one thing is for sure, you can never be proven wrong if you refuse to accept facts. The facts are that more guns equal more gun crime no matter what you choose to believe. We are the only advanced nation in the world with this level of mass shooting and gun related crime. Gun crime in the U.S. is something like 19 times greater than any other advanced nation. A profile has started to emerge. These mass shooters tend to be white twenty something males. In at least two of these incidences, the gunman also lived with his mother, who by the way was a gun nut who encouraged her son to learn to shoot. So much for more guns make us safer. In addition, there was a former member of the military, who was armed, at the school at the time of the shooting. He choose to stay put rather than draw his weapon and rush toward the scene. Why you ask? Because he wasn't sure of the SWAT response time and reasoned that if he was running around with a weapon he could be mistaken for the shooter and either shot or distracted the responders from the real threat. This is a guy who is trained and because of his training knew better than to rush in and play the hero. This is exactly why more guns make us far less safe! The two TV reporters who were shot didn't see their attacker until it was too late. Can you imagine going for their guns, trying to pull them, chamber a round and fire. Please. Can you imagine police responding to an incident and encountering a bunch of people with guns drawn, maybe shooting at each other and not being able to tell who is the perp? No matter how many times you say something, it doesn't make it true. The facts are that more guns equal more gun crime, period. Ken, just because a law is ignored by some, doesn't mean we shouldn't have laws. Lot's of people ignore the speed limit. Should we do away with speed limits?
Agreed Pat, truly sad to think that the answer would be to arm teachers. C'mon Allen. Can you imagine some mild mannered, hopeful young person dreaming of a career helping kids and suddenly realizing that a job requirement is tactical firearms training? Maybe they should wear body armor as well. Really, that's what our society has come to, that's the best we can do? As I read through the comments I notice quite a bit of "deflection" going on. An effort to change the topic to something other than addressing mass shootings. Inner city crime is not related to mass shootings! This is a completely different topic. Read through the crime report of any big city newspaper and you won't find gang bangers shooting up schools or movie theaters. An attempt to "deflect" and blame liberal policy and lawyers for inner city crime is ridiculous. Most mass killers kill themselves. So much for the death penalty deterrent Mark. Then we have the argument that increased background checks won't stop all criminals or all of the mentally ill from getting guns, so we shouldn't do anything. It is a proven fact that states with tougher gun laws have fewer gun crimes. This is not in dispute. What goes on in legal, regulated gun stores is another deflection, and not at issue. And you really think that an armed criminal with bad intent is going to worry about whether or not their intended victim is carrying? Seriously? And Tomo, let's take a closer look at the second amendment in it's entirety. "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to bear arms, shall not be infringed." Exactly what does "shall not be infringed" apply to? How about "a well regulated militia." Ever notice the wording, "well regulated?" How about, "In a well regulated militia, the right of people to bear arms shall not be infringed." Being necessary to the security of a free state, is a phrase that describes the "well regulated militia." I don't think one can take "the right of people to bear arms" on it's own without the context of the rest of the statement. This issue has been before the supreme court as recently as 2010 and hopefully will be back before the court soon. I'm not suggesting confiscating all guns, so you can put that paranoid delusion to rest, but we can't assume that "regulation" contradicts the constitution. While most if not all mass killers are clearly insane, nothing is going to be done about improving access to mental health care. Look how hard it has been to get access to any health care with republicans blocking every effort. No....the answer is the voting booth. Elect officials who are not beholden to the NRA and the right wing gun lobby and who will act to greatly increase background check laws, make them universal, and enact any other measures that may be required to stop these regular mass killings.
I ain't friskin Caitlyn Jenner. Yeah, seems to be young white males, mostly. The horse may be out, but anything we can do to make it more difficult to get a gun certainly wouldn't hurt.
Ken C, I believe you 100% that you are a responsible gun shop owner and would not sell to someone who you believed was a danger to society. I'm sure that most if not all gun shop owners are just like you. You are not the problem. Brad, I'm not a sheep by any means, damn it. And no, the current laws on the books didn't prevent the latest mass shooting. It should be obvious that the current laws are to weak and ineffective and are not universal. Gun sellers like Ken are not the issue, but one of the issues is gun shows and private sales with no background checks. Anyone, mentally ill, diagnosed, homicidal maniac could go to a gun show or answer an ad in the newspaper and buy whatever arsenal he might want. This is insane. I had to go the the sheriff's office, get fingerprinted, submit my fingerprints to the FBI and the CBI for a thorough background check just to get my professional license that has nothing to do with guns. Why not at least take the step to enact and enforce universal background check laws for all gun transactions, private or public. What's wrong with that? So what if you are inconvenienced and have to wait a bit. There is proof, proof, that gun laws, background checks do work to curtail gun violence. States with stricter background check laws have fewer gun crimes. We are the only advanced nation in the world that has theses continued, almost monthly mass shootings and we are the only advanced nation in the world with weak and ineffective gun laws. I'm tired of hearing about mental health issues or poor parenting skills being the problem and not guns. The combination of the two is the problem. There is nothing that can be done to force people to be better parents. There is nothing that will be done to improve access to mental health care as long as there are republicans who will vote down any funding and will ban the CDC as recently as this July, from conducting studies looking into the causes of gun violence. The gun lobby and the NRA are too powerful for anything to be done about the senseless slaughter of innocents. As long as there are politicians who are afraid to stand up, nothing will be accomplished. Let's face it, we can all have our opinions and argue and express our opinions here, but the truth is, and we all know it, nothing is going to change and nothing is going to be done. So you can sleep soundly tonight Tomo....nothing is going to change and no one is comin fer yur guns.
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