Jump to content
Ken, I'm sure you are aware that we have a representative system of government where we elect officials to act on our behalf. I "walk the walk" by voting and countering the negative, doomsday, ridiculous conspiracy theories and illogical assumptions based on cherry picked data that is so common amongst the angry and frustrated political right wingers that seem to enjoy contributing hate speak to this comment section. Speaking before the City Council regarding minimum wage would be a complete waste of time and effort and I really don't get your apparent obsession with this. An example of the false logic that is so commonly used here is the idea that because inner city populations tend to vote democratic and therefore have democratic mayors, that democratic policy must be the reason they remain in poverty. This is a ridiculous assumption, not based in fact but rather a favorite "right wing" talking point. Poor people vote democratic because the democratic party continues to fight for equality and to invest in the inner city and offer a hand up. The GOP tends to do the exact opposite. Obviously, democratic mayors cannot act unilaterally and demand that the federal government invest in their communities and enact the kinds of programs and reforms that could actually help. So to assume that the problem faced by those in the inner city is caused by democratic leadership, is of course nonsense.
One does not need a college degree to understand basic economic systems Ken, and a BA in economics most certainly does not qualify you as an expert. What is predictable, and has been tried and proven to be a failed policy, is trickle down economics. This has never worked! It's been tried, it's failed and we are still paying for it due to the disaster of the Bush administration. We could learn from the successes of the Scandinavian countries and their mix of capitalism and socialism. In this country, most if not all of the gains experienced in the last twenty years have gone to the top one percent of Americans at the expense of the other ninety nine percent. That is the real story and that is why our economic rebound has been slow and difficult and that's why it is time for government to do what it is intended to do and step in and make changes to allow for further growth. Pure capitalism will not work and is unsustainable, as is pure socialism and communism. I question your understanding despite your alleged degree since you don't seem to be able to grasp the fact that we indeed live under a mixed socioeconomic system that contains elements of capitalism and socialism. I attribute your reluctance to admit to this fact to your political extremism and tribalism. You can't allow yourself to admit that policies such as social security, medicare, welfare and the numerous public services provided to us by government owned and operated entities that are part of the fabric of our society and employ millions of Americans, are indeed forms of socialism. You can't admit it because your entire argument would collapse, so you steadfastly hold on to the right wing myth. This is precisely why we have gridlock in Washington and nothing can get done without the president taking executive action where he legally can. One needn't look any further than the cast of clowns being offered up by the GOP as presidential candidates. Can you imagine, out of the millions upon millions of Americans, this is the best you can do. And look at your parties clear front runner, a bombastic xenophobe, racist, bigot, another who claims the pyramids are actually grain silos, another who won't admit to blatantly lying about faked abortion videos and insists that she was a business success when the facts indicate otherwise, another, so called moderate, who is now calling for the creation of a government agency to promote Judeo-Chrisitian values. This is the best you can do! Sad state of affairs indeed.
Ken I don't need you to explain economics to me. I also went to college and studied economics and I dare say I have a much better understanding of the topic than you. I suggest you go back and review your lessons and particularly as they relate to the components of "socialism." It is so funny that in this little town we have so many experts, form climate scientists, to constitutional scholars and now self proclaimed economics experts. What an amazing place! Once again Ken, your are showing your right wing extremist colors by refusing to consider the topic of democratic socialism, and rather insist on sticking to your guns, pun untended, that I am advocating for a pure form of socialism, which I am not. Pretend that we don't have a mixed system all you want, it doesn't change the facts.
Once again Mark and Ken, you continue the right wing tactic of the "all or nothing" argument. All of our publicly funded city, county, federal government entities and the services they provide are a form of socialism no matter what you want to believe. The are certainly not examples of capitalism. The city, for instance, owns the means of production and allocates the scarce resources. That's socialism. As far as our socioeconomic system goes, it it a mix of capitalism and socialism, denying that fact does not make it go away. Bernie Sanders, nor I, are advocating for a socialist system. This is the scare tactic used by the right wing. What we are advocating for is "democratic socialism." Go ahead and continue your "straw man" argument, that's quite typical. By the way the ACA is not an example of a failure of socialism. It too is a mixed system that includes "for profit" insurance companies and that is the problem. The ACA was not what the president wanted, nor is it what I wanted, this was and is the republican plan that was compromised on as an alternative to what the president and I wanted, a single payer system or at the very least a "public option".
Mark, your "all or nothing" approach is very bizarre. This is the right wing narrative by the way, whether it is gun control or a minimum wage. Any effort to to keep guns out of the hands of criminals is considered an all out effort to take away yer guns, any attempt to mandate a living wage is seen as full on communism. And you ask why there is gridlock in Washington and nothing can get done. We live in a "mixed" socioeconomic system period. It isn't all or nothing. We have elements of pure capitalism and elements of socialism. In my earlier snow plowing example, according to you and the pure capitalist model, every household and business would hire their own privately owned and unregulated snow plow service. So only their property or store front would be plowed. If the neighbor didn't plow their section of the road, no one could get to their property or business, sound good? In another post you conceded that CDOT has a responsibility to build and maintain roads. How do you justify this in your "all or nothing" pure capitalist world. Shouldn't every individual be responsible for the road in front of their piece of property? What about the military, how do you explain this? Doesn't this mean that a minimum wage, CDOT and the military suggest that we are on the road to all out communism? Like most conservatives, you trot out your "sky is falling" or "all or nothing" argument when it suits your needs, then fully accept and embrace the benefits you receive from (socialist) publicly owned and operated services when that suits your needs. Interesting. Tomo......if you are speaking about what you perceive to be American values, bigotry, hatred and racism, I sure hope I don't morph into one of those "Americans."
Ken....since you have spent years of your life earning a degree in economics, I would think you would have a better understanding of socioeconomic systems. You choose to narrowly define socialism to fit your perceived paranoid theory that we on the left are promoting some "each to each" forced system of marxist socialism or communism. This is completely false and again, the typical pattern of mischaracterization and misrepresentation that is so common among those on the right. Why you ask? Because if you didn't mischaracterize and misrepresent, you wouldn't have any case to make. Shared services, or whatever you choose to call our system of taxpayer funded public services, is indeed a form of socialism whether you want to believe it or not. As is our military, our federal, state and local government, medicare, medicaid and any other taxpayer funded public service that you can think of. We live in a "mixed" socioeconomic system in this country, doesn't matter what you choose to believe Ken. We on the left are advocating for a change to the mix that favors the common good of all, rather than just a few at the very top. We believe that programs such as raising the minimum wage, universal health care, free education, rebuilding our infrastructure, spending money on this country, will benefit all Americans and create a more robust middle class and thereby spur economic growth. Sounds pretty scary huh. The current "mix" being skewed to favor the rich, is what has created the stagnant middle class and prolonged the recovery. You, having a degree in economics, should be able to clearly see that the gains of the last twenty years have gone almost exclusively to those at the very top, while the middle class have suffered and the percentage of poor is on the rise. Those on the right would have us "double down" on the Bush era policies of deregulation, more tax breaks for the wealthiest Americans, cutting social programs that benefit the poor, out of control military spending, more wars, for profit health care that excludes those with pre-existing conditions and the constant fear of losing everything because of getting sick, all of the policies that came dangerously close to destroying our economy and thereby threatening our national security. No thanks Ken......been there, done that. Lastly Tomo....I wonder what delusion you are living under that allows you to imagine that somehow I or liberals in general are not repulsed by radical Islam and Sharia Law? Why do you even bother to bring up Shari Law? I don't get it.
Excuse me Ken, but you are confusing some form of socialism with democratic socialism that we have in place in this country. Snow plowing the streets and all public services are a form of socialism and in fact democratic socialism. We do not live in a pure capitalist system. You and others on the right love to use this scare tactic to conflate democratic socialism with Marxism or national socialism which it is not , and not what we are talking about here. This is partly why there is so much division and tribalism going on with political debate. The right simply cannot make a case without distorting or mischaracterizing.
Next time we get a big snow storm, beware of the socialist snow plows clearing the public roads and highways. Yes, we pay taxes that go into a big pot, some of that money goes to buy snow plow trucks and hire the drivers. The city, county owns the means of production and decides how much and when it is used, that's socialism folks, whether you want to believe it or not!
Sorry Mark, Jerry, Tom, etal, we already have a democratic socialist system in place. It just doesn't contain quite as much socialism as some of us would like. As in investing in this country by way of infrastructure investment, investing in our schools, police, fire protection, providing for a universal healthcare system. These are all socialist programs as is our military, our local government and maintenance of our existing infrastructure. So if you've ever traveled on public roads, if goods and services that you buy and use for you business have ever traveled on public roads, if your business benefits from police and fire protection, if the food you buy at the local market is safe, if you have ever used our legal system to settle a dispute involving a business transaction, then you have taken money from the government and benefitted from socialist programs. It's not the scary boogey man that the right wingers want to portray. It's what we already have. Some of us would like to see the balance between capitalism and socialism be more equal and actually work for the benefit of all citizens, not just a few at the top.
Tomo, what I think of you, or what you may believe I think of you, is completely irrelevant and makes no difference. What you are can be most accurately described by your words and actions. Need I say more?
Last login: Tuesday, November 17, 2015
Contents of this site are © Copyright 2015 Steamboat Pilot & Today. All rights reserved.