In response to Jason Krueger and BeCoolHoneyBunny, I still think I was doing nothing wrong when I made my right turn. Cyclists approaching from the rear, who can clearly see the flashing turn signal and the intentions of the driver while a car is waiting for pedestrians to finish crossing should not be passing that car on the right hand side.
I just picked up a copy of the "Steamboat Springs Bike Guide" and think I finally found a definite answer to our questions. Page 34 of the Bike Guide is the page dedicated to "Road Safety" Page 34 among other things states;
"Ride in the right lane, except when passing another vehicle, preparing for a left turn or avoiding hazards."
I appreciate the vote of confidence from you but I'm still not quite sure myself Billy, I've stated my views but I can see the points that Jason and BeCool have made as well. I think there's still a lot of cloudy grey area that could be argued both ways. This is why I think Ulrich has a good point in getting everyone together and drafting some rules for these kind of scenarios that we all can agree on. Then put the info out there on brochures that can be placed in the racks around town. I think it would be beneficial for everyone.
As for the comments about the manual, I did look through the Colorado drivers handbook and even looked up statutes from other municipalities around Colorado before posting. I couldn't find anything specific for cycling rules in Steamboat.
The drivers handbook has some vague descriptions and does not specifically address passing on the right by cyclists. It says bicycles shall be considered a vehicle and subject to the same rules as motor vehicles. It also says bicycles are to stay on the right hand side of the road but may use the entire street for making left turns and passing, which vaguely insinuates that they should be passing on the left just like other vehicles.
As for lanes, the manual lumps bike lanes in with HOV lanes and bus lanes and it says these lanes are restricted for the specific use listed. In some states (again Colorado doesn't have a specific reference one way or the other in their drivers manual) blocking a bike lane with your car is illegal. I know it is certainly illegal to block or drive in an HOV lane without additional passengers and it is illegal to block or drive in a bus lane for any reason which makes me think it's also illegal to block or drive in a bike lane.
The laws that are already written are vague and don't give enough direction to protect cyclists and drivers. Some municipalities such as Boulder realized this and have enacted better more descriptive laws regarding bike and car interactions and scenarios. Boulder among other things has made it illegal to do what the cyclist did on Yampa that nearly caused my accident. Boulder says a cyclist can pass a line of cars on the right all the way up to the rear tire of the first car that is stopped at an intersection.
Picture this. If you rode down Yampa street watching and approaching the rear end of a car that was signaling a right turn for 20 seconds while pedestrians were in the crosswalk, would you;
A.) try to race by the right hand side of the car at the last second before they made their turn? B.) stop at their rear bumper and allow them to turn knowing that more often than not the driver probably doesn't see you?
That being said I'm sure my car was sitting at least partially blocking the bike lane for at least 20 seconds with my turn signal flashing while the cyclist approached from the rear.
Next time you drive down Yampa look at 9th street. The bike lane takes a big jog to the right at the 9th street intersection. The pedestrians were crossing 9th, not Yampa so my car was angled into the bike lane toward the turn I was getting ready to make.
As Jason said and I agree, this isn't about cyclists vs drivers. It's about everyone working together to stay safe. Please note, I'm writing this from the perspective of a cyclist as well. In high school and college I biked nearly 30 miles a day to my summer job on rural roads, 4 lane highways and city streets. I've logged thousands of miles biking on roadways and I've come up with one cardinal rule to live by;
Cars are much bigger and it simply doesn't matter who had the right-of-way once an accident has happened!
Proclaiming that you had the right-of-way from the back of an ambulance on your way to the hospital is a moot point. If a cyclist can use a bit of common sense and avoid creating a scenario where an an accident is more likely to happen it's better for all parties involved.
Common sense in my book is not racing full speed on your bike past the right hand side of a car that is signalling a right turn.
I've been wondering some of the same things myself. I sit here at my office watching the 5th and Lincoln intersection from my desk and I see cyclists running the lights, riding on the sidewalks and crosswalks and generally doing unsafe things on a regular basis. I think more education for the cyclists will help.
As a driver, I think we need some additional education as well. These new bike lnaes have thrown a curve ball at us. Earlier this summer I was driving northwest on Yampa Street. I got ready to turn at 9th street and there were pedestrians crossing 9th street so I was stopped on Yampa with my right turn signal flashing. After the pedestrians finished I started to turn and was passed on the right by a cyclist in the bike lane. It all happened so fast. Out of the corner of my eye he appeared. All I could do was hit the brakes and hope for the best. He swerved to avoid hitting my car but it was a close call. He gave me a look like I did something wrong and I gave him the same look back. I have always been told that the law says bikes are not suppoed to pass cars on the right, but now I'm not so sure about who has the right-of-way when dedicated bike lanes are involved.
Do the bike lanes change any of the usual rules of the road?
Are drivers now required to constantly be checking over their right shoulder now before making every turn?
Can cyclists legally pass drivers on the right if they are in a bike lane?
Who holds the answers to these questions? Please let us know?
I've seen those bike jumps someone dug into the hillside between the bowling alley and West End Village. I'd be suprised if someone actually had permission to build those. That's probably in the CDOT right-of-way so if someone gets hurt it's the state that will get the bill. I live in Steamboat II and I barely remember the bike park you're talking about. I'd hardly call that a park. More like a bunch of dirt mounds where some bmx'ers had their version of a pump track. It's been less than ten years since they tore it out. Seems like it was bulldozed the year after we moved in. Probably 2003.
They strung the fiber optic cable over a week ago but I still have yet to see any change in the signals. Not sure about the other intersections but at 5th street pedestrians are still getting only 5-6 seconds of walk time on the side street crosswalks.
In addition, I still have yet to see anybody give an answer to my original question. How do the "goals of the community" get relayed to CDOT? My personal goal for the community is to get the crosswalk signals working correctly and hopefully avoid someone getting hit by a car.
Thanks for the input trafficman. My first post was really more about the unwillingness of the city employees to help out. In the article Ben makes it sound like he and the city are personally working on the issues and he says;
"Depending on how traffic flows go, these things can be updated over time depending on the goals of the community”
Currently there is no way for the goals of the community to be communicated with the people in charge at CDOT. I'd still like some answers to my original questions from someone locally.
It's just that we live here in a local economy driven by tourism dollars. When I stand on the corner of 5th street every day and hear the visitors cursing the people in charge of timing the crosswalks and see motorists honking at pedestrians who got tired of waiting and ended up in the middle of the street during a green light, I can't help but think we are leaving a bad taste in their mouths and nobody seems to want to remedy the situation.
We need to try our best to make every visitor who comes to town feel like this is a place they want to return to over and over again. When they end up nearly getting hit by a car or in a road rage incident with a motorist honking at them, they are not having the kind of travel experience we promote in our marketing of Steamboat.
Ulrich Salzgeber: Bike education needed
In response to Jason Krueger and BeCoolHoneyBunny, I still think I was doing nothing wrong when I made my right turn. Cyclists approaching from the rear, who can clearly see the flashing turn signal and the intentions of the driver while a car is waiting for pedestrians to finish crossing should not be passing that car on the right hand side.
October 23, 2011 at 8:37 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Ulrich Salzgeber: Bike education needed
Hey Ulrich,
I just picked up a copy of the "Steamboat Springs Bike Guide" and think I finally found a definite answer to our questions. Page 34 of the Bike Guide is the page dedicated to "Road Safety" Page 34 among other things states;
"Ride in the right lane, except when passing another vehicle, preparing for a left turn or avoiding hazards."
October 23, 2011 at 8:31 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Ulrich Salzgeber: Bike education needed
I appreciate the vote of confidence from you but I'm still not quite sure myself Billy, I've stated my views but I can see the points that Jason and BeCool have made as well. I think there's still a lot of cloudy grey area that could be argued both ways. This is why I think Ulrich has a good point in getting everyone together and drafting some rules for these kind of scenarios that we all can agree on. Then put the info out there on brochures that can be placed in the racks around town. I think it would be beneficial for everyone.
October 5, 2011 at 8:58 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Ulrich Salzgeber: Bike education needed
As for the comments about the manual, I did look through the Colorado drivers handbook and even looked up statutes from other municipalities around Colorado before posting. I couldn't find anything specific for cycling rules in Steamboat.
The drivers handbook has some vague descriptions and does not specifically address passing on the right by cyclists. It says bicycles shall be considered a vehicle and subject to the same rules as motor vehicles. It also says bicycles are to stay on the right hand side of the road but may use the entire street for making left turns and passing, which vaguely insinuates that they should be passing on the left just like other vehicles.
As for lanes, the manual lumps bike lanes in with HOV lanes and bus lanes and it says these lanes are restricted for the specific use listed. In some states (again Colorado doesn't have a specific reference one way or the other in their drivers manual) blocking a bike lane with your car is illegal. I know it is certainly illegal to block or drive in an HOV lane without additional passengers and it is illegal to block or drive in a bus lane for any reason which makes me think it's also illegal to block or drive in a bike lane.
The laws that are already written are vague and don't give enough direction to protect cyclists and drivers. Some municipalities such as Boulder realized this and have enacted better more descriptive laws regarding bike and car interactions and scenarios. Boulder among other things has made it illegal to do what the cyclist did on Yampa that nearly caused my accident. Boulder says a cyclist can pass a line of cars on the right all the way up to the rear tire of the first car that is stopped at an intersection.
Picture this. If you rode down Yampa street watching and approaching the rear end of a car that was signaling a right turn for 20 seconds while pedestrians were in the crosswalk, would you;
A.) try to race by the right hand side of the car at the last second before they made their turn?
B.) stop at their rear bumper and allow them to turn knowing that more often than not the driver probably doesn't see you?
October 4, 2011 at 10:35 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Ulrich Salzgeber: Bike education needed
BeCool,
That being said I'm sure my car was sitting at least partially blocking the bike lane for at least 20 seconds with my turn signal flashing while the cyclist approached from the rear.
Next time you drive down Yampa look at 9th street. The bike lane takes a big jog to the right at the 9th street intersection. The pedestrians were crossing 9th, not Yampa so my car was angled into the bike lane toward the turn I was getting ready to make.
As Jason said and I agree, this isn't about cyclists vs drivers. It's about everyone working together to stay safe. Please note, I'm writing this from the perspective of a cyclist as well. In high school and college I biked nearly 30 miles a day to my summer job on rural roads, 4 lane highways and city streets. I've logged thousands of miles biking on roadways and I've come up with one cardinal rule to live by;
Cars are much bigger and it simply doesn't matter who had the right-of-way once an accident has happened!
Proclaiming that you had the right-of-way from the back of an ambulance on your way to the hospital is a moot point. If a cyclist can use a bit of common sense and avoid creating a scenario where an an accident is more likely to happen it's better for all parties involved.
Common sense in my book is not racing full speed on your bike past the right hand side of a car that is signalling a right turn.
October 4, 2011 at 10:30 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Ulrich Salzgeber: Bike education needed
Good points Ulrich,
I've been wondering some of the same things myself. I sit here at my office watching the 5th and Lincoln intersection from my desk and I see cyclists running the lights, riding on the sidewalks and crosswalks and generally doing unsafe things on a regular basis. I think more education for the cyclists will help.
As a driver, I think we need some additional education as well. These new bike lnaes have thrown a curve ball at us. Earlier this summer I was driving northwest on Yampa Street. I got ready to turn at 9th street and there were pedestrians crossing 9th street so I was stopped on Yampa with my right turn signal flashing. After the pedestrians finished I started to turn and was passed on the right by a cyclist in the bike lane. It all happened so fast. Out of the corner of my eye he appeared. All I could do was hit the brakes and hope for the best. He swerved to avoid hitting my car but it was a close call. He gave me a look like I did something wrong and I gave him the same look back. I have always been told that the law says bikes are not suppoed to pass cars on the right, but now I'm not so sure about who has the right-of-way when dedicated bike lanes are involved.
Do the bike lanes change any of the usual rules of the road?
Are drivers now required to constantly be checking over their right shoulder now before making every turn?
Can cyclists legally pass drivers on the right if they are in a bike lane?
Who holds the answers to these questions? Please let us know?
October 3, 2011 at 10:12 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Whistler bike park faces Parks and Rec meeting vote
I've seen those bike jumps someone dug into the hillside between the bowling alley and West End Village. I'd be suprised if someone actually had permission to build those. That's probably in the CDOT right-of-way so if someone gets hurt it's the state that will get the bill. I live in Steamboat II and I barely remember the bike park you're talking about. I'd hardly call that a park. More like a bunch of dirt mounds where some bmx'ers had their version of a pump track. It's been less than ten years since they tore it out. Seems like it was bulldozed the year after we moved in. Probably 2003.
September 15, 2011 at 2:34 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
CDOT to run fiber-optic cable to address Steamboat traffic signal issues remotely
Finally!!! Nearly 3 weeks after the new cable was run the crosswalks at the side streets are giving a walk signal longer than 5-6 seconds.
August 11, 2011 at 2:43 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
CDOT to run fiber-optic cable to address Steamboat traffic signal issues remotely
I couldn't agree more westsmbtres.
They strung the fiber optic cable over a week ago but I still have yet to see any change in the signals. Not sure about the other intersections but at 5th street pedestrians are still getting only 5-6 seconds of walk time on the side street crosswalks.
In addition, I still have yet to see anybody give an answer to my original question. How do the "goals of the community" get relayed to CDOT? My personal goal for the community is to get the crosswalk signals working correctly and hopefully avoid someone getting hit by a car.
August 2, 2011 at 2:47 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
CDOT to run fiber-optic cable to address Steamboat traffic signal issues remotely
Thanks for the input trafficman. My first post was really more about the unwillingness of the city employees to help out. In the article Ben makes it sound like he and the city are personally working on the issues and he says;
"Depending on how traffic flows go, these things can be updated over time depending on the goals of the community”
Currently there is no way for the goals of the community to be communicated with the people in charge at CDOT. I'd still like some answers to my original questions from someone locally.
It's just that we live here in a local economy driven by tourism dollars. When I stand on the corner of 5th street every day and hear the visitors cursing the people in charge of timing the crosswalks and see motorists honking at pedestrians who got tired of waiting and ended up in the middle of the street during a green light, I can't help but think we are leaving a bad taste in their mouths and nobody seems to want to remedy the situation.
We need to try our best to make every visitor who comes to town feel like this is a place they want to return to over and over again. When they end up nearly getting hit by a car or in a road rage incident with a motorist honking at them, they are not having the kind of travel experience we promote in our marketing of Steamboat.
July 29, 2011 at 9:19 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )