Democrat Diane Mitsch Bush and supporter Christina Rosch smile after Mitsch Bush took an early lead over challenger Chuck McConnell in the race for the state House of Representatives in Tuesday night's election. Mitsch Bush went on to win the seat.

Photo by John F. Russell

Democrat Diane Mitsch Bush and supporter Christina Rosch smile after Mitsch Bush took an early lead over challenger Chuck McConnell in the race for the state House of Representatives in Tuesday night's election. Mitsch Bush went on to win the seat.

Democrat incumbent Mitsch Bush defeats McConnell in state house race

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— Colorado House District 26 incumbent Diane Mitsch Bush defeated challenger Chuck McConnell by a healthy margin Tuesday night.

Election 2014

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Democrats Diane Mitsch Bush and Steve Ivancie hug at a Democratic watch party at Aurum Tuesday night. Mitsch Bush defeated Chuck McConnell to retain her Colorado House District 26 seat for another term. In an extremely tight county commissioner's race, Ivancie was defeated by Republican Cari Hermacinski.

In Routt County, Democrat Mitsch Bush had 55.8 percent, or 5,466 votes, to Republican McConnell's 41.4 percent, or 4,056 votes. In Eagle County, the only other county in District 26, Mitsch Bush had 7,832 votes to McConnell’s 6,658 votes.

“I’m disappointed, obviously,” McConnell said.

McConnell, a former chemical engineer, previously challenged Mitsch Bush when District 26 was first formed in 2012. Mitsch Bush won that election with support in both Routt and Eagle counties, winning with about 55 percent of the total vote.

Mitsch Bush was a college sociology professor before becoming a Routt County commissioner in 2007, a position she held until the 2012 House District 26 election.

Mitsch Bush said she believed voters resonated with her honesty and the fact that she relied on her record and didn’t talk down to her opponent.

“I’ve always been positive. I think people are looking for leaders that can bring people together,” Mitsch Bush said. “I tell the truth.”

Since first elected in 2012, Mitsch Bush has sponsored 13 bills, which all passed with bi-partisan support.

“It’s really important for all of us to work together,” she said.

McConnell said he had run on a platform of improving the economy and increasing jobs, and he hoped to give a voice to House District 26 and not just represent Republicans.

Compared to the 2012 race, McConnell said he’d earned more in campaign contributions and used them as wisely as he could.

“I honestly did everything I knew with the money that I had,” McConnell said.

Libertarian candidate Thom Haupt had about 2.8 percent of the vote, or 252 votes, in Routt County, and 4.2 percent, or 529 votes in Eagle County, according to preliminary returns.

To reach Teresa Ristow, call 970-871-4206, email tristow@SteamboatToday.com or follow her on Twitter @TeresaRistow

Comments

Scott Wedel 2 years, 5 months ago

DMB ran a smart campaign emphasizing her bipartisan credentials. In a Democratic leaning district she did better than other Democrats.

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Fred Duckels 2 years, 5 months ago

This appears to me to be a gerrymandered district set up by the Dems and hopefully next time we redistrict we can have more balance.

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Jim Kelley 2 years, 5 months ago

Gerrymandered? I think not. Again, the GOP could've presented a viable candidate for this district and this seat would've been ripe for the picking this year.----Tea Party based candidates won't be able to win this district though. In two more years maybe Cari could win this district and follow DMB's path from commissioner to state house while replacing her.

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Ben Tiffany 2 years, 5 months ago

Fred, Diane was simply a better candidate,and deserved to win. For once,try being a gracious loser and stop looking for conspiracies in anything that you disagree with.

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Jeff Kibler 2 years, 5 months ago

Gracious loser? Talk to the President and get back to me.

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jerry carlton 2 years, 5 months ago

While taking Industrial Engineering in college some 48 years ago, I needed an elective out of my field. I took sociology. It was the easiest course I had in college. It seemed rather useless, much like being a "community organizer".

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Fred Duckels 2 years, 5 months ago

I'm not talking candidates, in my memory this Northwest corner has always had Republican representation and the only way to break that up was to team us with Eagle County. It makes sense for this corner to be a unit.

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john bailey 2 years, 5 months ago

no worries Fred , the pendulum will swing back.....always does.....~;0)

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Dan Shores 2 years, 5 months ago

Congrats Diane. One bright spot in an otherwise dismal night. I guess there are still some sane people left in the our valley. Another bright spot was the sound thumping of Cory Gardner's personhood amendment. A schizophrenic electorate that would elect Tea Bagger Cory Gardner and at the same time reject his signature piece of legislation by something like 77%. Hard to understand.

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Dan Kuechenmeister 2 years, 5 months ago

Good old Dan S. - never disappointing as he keeps up with his name calling and hateful rhetoric. Calls the electorate schizophrenic, calls Gardner a Tea Bagger.

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cindy constantine 2 years, 5 months ago

Dan, This election was not a tidal wave because the electorate is sooooo in love with the republicans and their candidates. This sweep was a statement from the citizens that they want Obama and his progressive agenda STOPPED! Pretty darn obvious that the media is spinning the results. This was much more than anti-incumbent sentiment considering McConnell was re-elected. The independents came out in force for a different agenda.

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Scott Wedel 2 years, 5 months ago

Cindy,

Well, Congressional stalemate had stopped any progressive or any other agenda. So voters could have reelected everyone if the goal was keeping a stalemate.

The exit polls showed a large number of voters complaining about Washington getting nothing done. That has bee a consistent pattern since 2008 and included Dems and Reps landslides.

If you look at things like minimum wage laws passing including in conservative states then it appears there are issues that the public thinks Washington should be able to deal with.

McConnell was helped by Grimes showing herself to be the exact sort of politician that is the problem by refusing to say she voted for Obama. The fact that the race was ever close in Kentucky shows the public's dislike for Washington.

This was a victory for the Reps, but 2016 could be just as big of a victory for the Dems. Voters could still be disenchanted. Just as this year had Dem Senators in tough states that were swept into office in 2008, 2016 has tough races for Reps Senators swept in 2010.

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cindy constantine 2 years, 5 months ago

Funny, Scott, that you don't mention Obamacare which is by far the most unpopular legislation ever to come out of a President's office and was the main reason voters shifted their alliances. I think the electorate is telling us they want no more big govt interference. And what about this questionable Ebola czar? More of the same from this POTUS.

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john bailey 2 years, 5 months ago

but he still has his EOs to swing around , haha , what arrogance from this idiot-in-chief....smartest man in the room ......riiiiiight......

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Scott Wedel 2 years, 5 months ago

So McConnell had high negatives because he didn't sufficiently object to ObamaCare?

If Reps had a thought out plan of what to do that is better than Obamacare then they might have had more success. But ObamaCare getting people covered is allowing for cost savings in Medicare

The number of uninsured was approaching critical unsubstantial levels and were being subsidized by too few with healthcare coverage. And, for instance, we've long known that uninsured pregnant women that show up in labor at an emergency room results in far higher medical costs than those with normal prenatal visits. With no treatment then far too many treatable conditions result in extremely expensive premature births.

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cindy constantine 2 years, 5 months ago

I know, Scott, that you always want the final word in absolutely every thread so this is my final comment to you regarding Obama care. It has hurt millions more people than it has helped. I am sure you know of the 29/49 phenomena--workers hours reduced t0 29 hours a week, small businesses holding employment to 49 employees instead of the 56 employees they really need to be under OC threshold. The millions who lost their plans, the millions whose premiums have sky rocketed so do not give me your arguments about how helpful it has been. How about fairly weighing those helped against those hurt.

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john bailey 2 years, 5 months ago

yep Dan K. kinda tells ya everything one needs to know about Dan S. whines when he gets his way and whines when he doesn't , hey that's the true meaning of schizophrenic....good lord whats up with that ? damn .....I seem to have misplaced my right wing play book , got a spare ? not to worry tho this little corner of Colorado will be back to where it was before the mass exodus from Cali. , hum wonder why they left that Beautiful state to screw this state up ?

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Dan Kuechenmeister 2 years, 5 months ago

Hey Dan S. Did you see those racist, conservative right wingers in South Carolina elected an African American to the US Senate. Now I would say that is one bright spot. First African American ever elected to the US Senate. Way to go USA

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Ken Mauldin 2 years, 5 months ago

Dan - I believe that if a drunk driver kills a pregnant woman and her unborn baby they should be held to account for the loss of two lives. Further, I believe that if an armed robber kills a pregnant woman and her unborn child during the commission of a robbery that the robber should be held accountable for two murders.

On a side note, thank goodness Udall was defeated and Colorado's Senate delegation will no longer march lock-step with the destructive liberal/progressive agenda that American voters have soundly rejected.

While I congratulate Ms. Bush on her hard-earned victory, I celebrate that the American voters have placed her party's liberal ideology in such a small minority that her impact of national policy in the US House has been rendered moot.

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rhys jones 2 years, 5 months ago

While the debate rages, whether a person is a person at birth, or conception -- or some point in between -- I might offer a counter perspective: That until it can walk and is out of diapers, it should be perfectly legal to just eat the little darling. ;-)

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john bailey 2 years, 5 months ago

Rhys , shame on you , those little crumb snatchers deserve to grow up , no ? jejeje

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mark hartless 2 years, 5 months ago

Maybe by the time you can't walk or are back in diapers Obamacare will have made it perfectly legal to eat YOU...?

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rhys jones 2 years, 5 months ago

John -- You can spot 'em real early.

Mark -- If I ever do die, Science will want to study this marvel.

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Fred Duckels 2 years, 5 months ago

28 senators that voted for Obamacare are history.

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Tim Keenan 2 years, 5 months ago

Anyone want to bet that if Obamacare is repealed, which won't happen, self-proclaimed republicans will be complaining when they lose coverage, or when their children lose coverage? Republican leadership realizes that Obamacare has helped a lot of their base, whether they want to admit it or not. That's why they'll never repeal it outright.

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Dan Kuechenmeister 2 years, 5 months ago

Hey Tim, Of course they will. People right or left complain. Did any Democrats complain when Obamacare was passed? LOL

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Dan Kuechenmeister 2 years, 5 months ago

Scott W. " The fact that the race was ever close in Kentucky shows the public's dislike for Washington." With all due respect it's hard for me see how McConnell 57% vs. Grimes 40% was ever "close". I am sure you will find polls that suggest it was a toss up or Grimes was ahead at one point but I would suggest a 57 - 40 result was never close except in the minds of those that favored the Democratic candidate. What it tells me is the polling is not so good. My recollection is Nate Silver predicted 7 seat pick up and Sabato predicted 8. Still waiting on Alaska and Louisiana. As far as I am concerned they should stop all the polling. Some people don't vote according to issues they vote because they want to brag their candidate won. Their are a lot of other people that have no idea what the issues are but pull for all R's or all D's. God bless America.

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Scott Wedel 2 years, 5 months ago

Your logic is that is was never close because it ended in a wipe out?

Polls at the end had McConnell with a good lead. So say he was always doing better than the polls. That still means it was close when some polls had Grimes with a small lead.

And if Kentucky was so enthused with Republican policies then why did he have such strong negatives in the polls?

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Dan Kuechenmeister 2 years, 5 months ago

And so Scott W. proves me clairvoyant as I said " I am sure you will find polls that suggest it was a toss up or Grimes was ahead at one point" and Scott W. says "That still means it was close when some polls had Grimes with a small lead." Miami and San Diego were tied 0 - 0 when their game started last Sunday and yet Miami 37 - San Diego 0 at the end and so that game was close as well then according to your logic. As Cindy so aptly said - have the last word. UGH

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Scott Wedel 2 years, 5 months ago

Except politics aren't like a game in which starts out both sides with zero. It starts out with polls indicating who is ahead and even why. And then well into the contest it got close, but McConnelll got going well and Grimes did worse so he ended up with a large victory.

And whatever happened to all of the local prognosticators that so confidently claimed that DMB was going to be booted from office due to her support of Colorado's gun control measures? Looks like she had an idea on how to get reelected.

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Dan Kuechenmeister 2 years, 5 months ago

Hey Scott maybe the bigger story is Cari Hermacinski may have defeated Steve Ivancie in this arguably democratic leaning part of Colorado. Only delusional people like those who thought the Kentucky senate race was ever close would have thought a Republican would have a chance to beat DMB in this part of Colorado.

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mark hartless 2 years, 5 months ago

It seems those racist, sexist republicans elected the first black congresswoman ever-Mia Love, Ut. Being racists, sexists, they must have assumed that there were no black women in Ut.

? Republicans also elected the first black senator from the south since reconstruction- Tim Scott, SC.

With all the racists in the south and in the republican party, isn't that impossible???

Joni Ernst smashed a couple of glass ceilings of her own, becoming the first woman to represent Iowa in either house of Congress and the first female combat veteran ever elected to the Senate.

Shelley Moore Capito cruised to victory in West Virginia to become the first woman elected to the Senate from her state.

The number of women in Congress will reach 100 for the first time in U.S. history... thatks to those war-on-women waging repiublicans...

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Fred Duckels 2 years, 5 months ago

Not a good day for the party of the Holy Uterus.

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Jim Kelley 2 years, 5 months ago

Come on Fred, that's crass! That"s the attitude that turns many of us who mostly agree with GOP principles away. True inclusiveness is key for the future of the GOP---especially among women and Latinos, who mostly didn't vote this cycle. The GOP definitely shined Tuesday but be careful reading the results as anything other than discontent and apathy with the whole mess. A 38% voter turnout (lowest since 1942!)wouldn't even count as a quorum to have a home owner association meeting!

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Dan Shores 2 years, 5 months ago

Hey Cindy have you forgotten the 2012 election. President Obama ran on the strength of Obamacare. His opponent promised to repeal Obamacare if elected. So what happened? And what is your plan to provide access to affordable heath insurance for those with a pre-exisitng condition? I believe right wingers like to mention tort reform and selling across state lines. So how does that provide insurance to those with pre-exisitng conditions? There wouldn't be Obamacare if republicans came up with a plan of their own, oh wait, almost forgot, they did, it's called the individual mandate, the central feature of Obamacare. Dan K. I never said all southerners were racist. Funny how you to like to misrepresent anything I say. I wonder if it's because if you didn't misrepresent, you would have nothing to say? Just like a whole lot of right wingers, (notice how I didn't say all right wingers cause that would be bigoted), they have to lie and misrepresent, ignore facts, deny science or claim that the data has been manipulated by liberals or they have no case. If you recall I said that the racist southern democrats AKA, dixiecrats of the 1960's were so enraged by the passage of the civil rights and voter rights acts that they fled to the republican party where they reside today. Let's see how you try and twist an misrepresent again. And John, lumping all Californian's into a group and characterizing them in a certain way is bigotry by definition. So who is a bigot? The fact is that ignorance, fear and apathy are really what caused the republicans to win so many seats. Liberal policies such as legalization of marijuana, raising the minimum wage and the overwhelming defeat of the personhood amendment, succeeded even in red states. So the republican plan of blocking, obstructing and fear mongering over Ebola and ISIS in order to make the President appear ineffective worked beautifully. Problem is republicans are going to have to actually do something and will no longer be able to just sit back and blame the President and the Democrats. They have now been given the rope, let's see how long it takes for them to hang themselves. So rhys and Ken, I just want to be clear, you're saying that if someone you know was raped, you would favor forcing them, under penalty of law, to carry the pregnancy that resulted from the rape to full term. Or if a woman had a miscarriage, you would want to further traumatize her with the threat of criminal prosecution. This is exactly what the personhood amendment that Cory Gardner sponsored would have done, just want to be sure you understand. Is that what you your saying you agree with? Should be a yes or no answer.

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mark hartless 2 years, 5 months ago

Aren't ya glad yo mama wasn't as big a fan of abortion as you are, Dan??

Still waitin' for you to tell us all how many trillions is the magic number for the gubbamint to make a huge profit on the debt... tick...tock...tick...

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rhys jones 2 years, 5 months ago

Dan -- Don't tell me what I'm saying. I have no idea how you fathomed that from my comments. I said you should be able to eat them. I often agree with your viewpoint, but seldom speak up -- you do a great job of antagonizing people all by yourself. No. I did not support the personhood amendment. A woman should be in total charge of her own body. That amendment wouldn't have survived the courts anyway; Roe v Wade would have trumped it. Now stop asking me personal questions, in your accusatory way, and bug some other troll.

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Dan Kuechenmeister 2 years, 5 months ago

Ah come on in Rhys, the water is fine. Dan S. is constantly telling all of us what we are saying. He has done it to me several times and not once has he been correct. When i ask him to give proof of what he claims I said he just starts huffing, puffing and spinning like crazy. I think it's because he likes us. Why should you be left out, although I have no idea why he called you out.

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john bailey 2 years, 5 months ago

YAWN......not all Calis are lumped together just the ones of your ilk , why'd you run away from the problems back THERE only to bring your garbage here ? I have some every cool friends from that state oh and even sisters they never hear the end of it , I may add......hows your head ? did you find enough to put it back together ? won't take much since there's not much in the first place. in the words of Richard Sherman "you mad bro ?" LOL now then just sit back and watch the right go to work , you know WORK a word you libbies don't know the meaning of ...freeking whiner

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cindy constantine 2 years, 5 months ago

Dan,

"Problem is republicans are going to have to actually do something . . . " Let's be accurate now, Dan. Obama will no longer have Harry Reid to play interference for him. There will no longer be 380 + bills sitting on a desk in some senators office - many with bi partisan support. May now interfere with O's golf schedule as bills will reach his desk quickly and he may actually have to "work for a living." Congress has been working harder than you indicate, now the President will have to do his part and give up/down votes or actually reach across the aisle to compromise. This will be very telling as to O's "legacy" if he actually took to heart what the electorate was telling him. If his supporters did not come out to support "his" candidates they must not be very happy . . . This was an independents election especially in Colorado where Gardner won and so did Hickenlooper. I am proud of Coloradans who voted for the candidate of their choice--not necessarily the party.

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Dan Kuechenmeister 2 years, 5 months ago

Dan S. says " Dan K. I never said all southerners were racist. Funny how you to like to misrepresent anything I say." OK, once again I will ask you for proof that I said something that I didn't say, (that is becoming a constant with you and here is a bit of advice. When you find that you are digging yourself into a hole - STOP DIGGING) that you said "all southerners were racist". Why would I say that when I know you would not say that because there have to be a few folks left in the South that think like you do. But if you can mischaracterize me you hope to put me in a bad light. I suspect that most that read this blog know where you are coming from. Dude, you need to sit down and try to calm down. You are spinning so hard you remind of a song. With apologies to Tommy Roe Dizzy, I'm so dizzy my head is spinning Like a whirlpool it never ends And it's You non far lefties makin' it spin You're making me dizzy my head is spinning Like a whirlpool it never ends And it's You non far lefties making it spin You're making me dizzy you're making me dizzy

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Scott Wedel 2 years, 5 months ago

Well, Cari H won because she was able to attract independent voters.

With her campaign website promoting her early involvement with YVHA and other social programs, she appears to have campaigned as someone to the left of Monger and Corrigan. I didn't see where she has done or proposed anything that got Democrats upset.

For the right wing, she would seem to be as much of a RINO as anyone. But she ran a smart campaign to win in this district.

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cindy constantine 2 years, 5 months ago

Perhaps the independent voter thought 3 democratic commissioners was not a balanced representation of the county and a thoughtful republican candidate with good local experience was the right answer, Scott.

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Scott Wedel 2 years, 5 months ago

Maybe, but asking voters to consider the party affiliation of serving commissioners is a pretty indirect consideration for the voters.

But it was also a race in which I didn't see a single issue which there was a clear difference between Cari and Steve. Part of that is because county government doesn't have the oodles of money to spend as they choose like the city government so there are not so many controversial issues facing the county. Part of that is because Steve is a moderate Democrat and Cari is a moderate Republican. Cari didn't promise to repeal county's oil and gas drilling regulations, for instance.

I am honestly curious to see what Cari will do as county commissioner that will indicate any change of direction. Maybe she will push more for reforming YVHA into a less of a charitable aid mentally and into more of a competent business operation able to buy and create more affordable housing units.

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Dan Shores 2 years, 5 months ago

rhys I was confused by your comment, that's why I asked a yes or no question, I didn't put words in anyones mouth, just checking. Cindy, I was responding to your comment about the ACA being so unpopular. If so why was the President re-elected on the strength of the ACA? And what is your plan to provide coverage for those with a pre-existing condition. John B. you did indeed lump all Californians into a group and have done so many times, you're just not man enough to admit it. That is the definition of bigotry by the way. Dan K. keep pretending, seems to be your favorite past time.

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cindy constantine 2 years, 5 months ago

Where does it say anywhere that the govt is responsible (or anyone else for that matter) to cover pre-existing conditions? My husband and I both have pre-existing conditions that were excluded in previous health policies and we dealt with it by funding health savings accounts and other savings. We made changes to our "lifestyles" to improve those health conditions. Why should millions of middle and lower class families have to make sacrifices (which they have) so there is coverage for your and our health conditions!! Millions of families have lost their insurance, had to drop insurance because the premiums have gone thru the roof, had their hours cut at work or worse yet had their jobs eliminated because small business owners had the choice to provide OC or go out of business. Obamacare has been the single largest factor in preventing the economy from a true recovery. While I do not believe it will be rescinded many of the provisions must be eliminated for families to afford insurance and get their jobs back and to truly grow the economy. Frankly, lots of pre-existing conditions are lifestyle choices in the food eaten, activities engaged in, smoking, drinking, engaging in reckless behavior---personal choices that taxpayers should not have to fund. And for those with pre-existing conditions like children with debilitating diseases, there are many charitable organizations providing the medical and financial support, i.e. Shriners for children, Susan G. Komen for breast cancer assistance. Do not make me go on and on with many other examples because I will!! If you think you are "owed" insurance on the backs of taxpayers for your pre-existing condition I say selfish, selfish, selfish!!

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john bailey 2 years, 5 months ago

Dan S. with all due respect , ACA passed because he lied about it all , just like he lied the first time he spoke to the nation you dolt. and has lied ever since. if it will make you feel better , I did lump all Californians together , feel better yet ?. now i'll pick out the good ones and I'm afraid you don't make the list ya whiner. it looks like your eating your own there with Rhys cupcake , I can count on nothing less from a loser such as yourself. don't put words in others mouths my ass , thats all you do again Dan "you mad Bro" , cause you sure seem like it with all this complaining , so hows the head doing ? need some duct tape , I got lots of colors , will red work ? Cindy , that's all he thinks , the tax payers owe the lefties everything.....

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Dan Shores 2 years, 5 months ago

marc thanks for the insult. Seems like you boys are gettin just a little hot under the collar. I can see the smoke comin out of your ears. I got some really good comeback insults for you and yo mama but of course this isn't he right place for that. Talk about putting words in someones mouth, I've said many times on this forum that I a not a fan of abortion, I don't know anyone who is. It is very tragic and a serious matter and nothing to joke about. What I am a fan of is a woman's right to choose. This is something that is a very personal decision and should be between her and her doctor and a decision that she will have to live with for the rest of her life. What I am not a fan of is big government overreach telling us how to live our personal lives. That's all. Yes John the President did lie about certain aspects of the ACA such as you can keep your doctor, but that had nothing to do with why the bill passed and is now law. The central theme of the ACA, as I keep feeling like I have to remind people, is the provision that insurance companies can no longer discriminate due to a pre-existing condition. This is insurance reform legislation and nothing more. The pre-exisitng condition issue has been discussed for decades but this is the first time someone had the courage to do something about it. As I have also said over and over, if their is a better plan, a better way to provide access to health insurance for people with pre-exisitng conditions and keep the cost of insurance down for all American's, I'm totally for it. This shouldn't be a tribal partisan issue. I'm certainly not trying to be partisan here, I would be in favor of any plan by any party that would do a better job. If you re-read my previous post you will see that I did not in any way put words in Rhys mouth. That's why I asked a question, I was confused by what was written, that's it. If people are offended because i asked a question there is really nothing I can do about that. And while I'm on the subject of tribalism, I'm not trying to be partisan or tribal on any of these issues, even though I'm quite positive none of my critics will agree. I am strictly interested in what each party stands for, what their objectives are, the legislation they propose, whether or not it is fair for all American's, addresses an real need, is based on proven economic fact and will have a positive outcome for everyone. It just so happens that I agree with the liberal, progressive agenda. Argue all you want about the President and progressive policies but the evidence is all I care about and the evidence is quite clear, the Presidents economic policies have been a great success, the economy is improving, jobs are being created, the unemployment rate is now down to 5.8%, gas prices are down, the stock market is at record levels, the real estate and construction industries are strong, the deficit is being reduced and the economic numbers prove it.

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john bailey 2 years, 5 months ago

well , its your fantasy , have fun , careful when you wake up tho your head may hurt alittle

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jerry carlton 2 years, 5 months ago

Deficit being reduced? You got some proof of that?

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rhys jones 2 years, 5 months ago

Don't confuse the deficit with the debt, which continues to grow.

We could really use a balanced budget amendment, except that'd put half of Congress's cronies seeking alternate funding. We'd still have to rob China to pay off the debt.

Check out how fast we're spending money borrowed from the Fed, just on wars alone:

https://www.nationalpriorities.org/cost-of/

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john bailey 2 years, 5 months ago

coco for coconuts folks......, xit , Rhys you gotta link there buddy.....

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rhys jones 2 years, 5 months ago

Did I do that? What was I thinking? Or -- if I can't break my own rules -- who can? Let me count... at least I provided a lead-in, not just "Hey check this out."

I just thought it was kinda fun, watching how fast Halliburton is stealing our money.

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john bailey 2 years, 5 months ago

its all good , I don't read links anyway , we don't knead no stincing rools...

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Dan Kuechenmeister 2 years, 5 months ago

Dan S. Pray tell, o all knowing lefty. Exactly what am I pretending about? Keep spinning and keep posting. Oh and on the economy, if it's so gosh darn good why did as many as 70% of those that participated in the exit polls say they were concerned about the economy. Yep, stock market is at record highs. Who is that helping. Could it be those 1%ers that you and the lefties despise, mock and ridicule. The unemployment rate is 5.8%. How many people have stopped looking for work? Could that impact the unemployment rate. The average median income is lower now then it was in 2009. And finally, are you really giving the current president credit for lower gas prices. Do you do any research before you post on this forum or just post off your way left talking points memo you keep next to your computer.

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Dan Kuechenmeister 2 years, 5 months ago

Jerry, Apparently in Dan S mind if the deficit is not growing as fast as it did last year then that means it's being reduced. I wonder if I went to my doc and told him I hadn't gained as much weight this year as I did last year he would congratulate me on my weight reduction.

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mark hartless 2 years, 5 months ago

Still waitin, Dan. Tell us when the gubbamint will begin to show a profit on it's debt of $18T...

You are lucky that your mama wasn't as big a fan of abortion as you are...

How many tractors will the ranch need to buy before it can "sustain" itself??? You know... "sustainability"... that thing all you lefties care about so much...???

You are the most selfish breed that has ever lived. You couldn't care less about those you impose government on, AND you couldn't care less about the ones you force ME to save.

All YOU want is recognition for being "caring". You take that credit off the battlefield of ideas and persume to walk away victorious, while those you sat you came to help continue to starve. Their numbers grow every day; the deficit of your spoending expands every day. Nothing you do makes it better for those you claim to champion. But that doesn't matter to you because you really dont care about them. What you really care about is showing the world that you care enough to saddle ME with the problem. Once you do that, your conscience is free to step away and ride your mtn bike... or whatever...

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Rick Pighini 2 years, 5 months ago

The borrowed money from China has made politicians, their families and friends rich for decades. Look at what borrowed money has done to the stock market. Don't confuse the fact that borrowed money by the govt doesn't make a profit. The question is who profits from the borrowed money. All the companies making weapons, they've profited from govt borrowed money. The people voting themselves everything are those in government. They profit, we watch and work to pay for their mansions cars and planes.

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mark hartless 2 years, 5 months ago

Yes, the borrowed money has an effect. But it is NOT sustainable. "Sustainability" is the favorite word of progressive leftists like Dan when it comes to the environment. Yet when it comes to economics they are not the least bit interested on sustainability. Frankly, I believe a lot of them (including the current president) would just as soon see the current system collapse altogether so it can be re-made into what they clearly want... communism, without even so much as the current lipservice we give to capitalism.

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john bailey 2 years, 5 months ago

looks like someone is having a melt down , those mid terms sure can make it hard on a fella...poor little guy........Santa will take care of you ,jejeeeeee

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Dan Shores 2 years, 5 months ago

Cindy you've answered the fundamental question regarding the ACA and I applaud you for your honesty. A rather rare commodity on this forum. You obviously believe that access to health insurance is a privilege, only available to those without pre-existing conditions and who can afford insurance, many on the right agree with you, and I on the left believe it should be the right of all Americans, affordable to all even with a pre-existing condition, as most if not all on the left do. So of course I don't blame you for being opposed to the legislation and be mad about your tax dollars going to help others who are less fortunate. Go for it. I would be mad too. But say your prayers Cindy, the supreme court has just agreed to hear a case that could effectively gut the ACA so maybe you'll get you wish. Now who's spinning Dan K., you're making me dizzy. Since you can't dispute the numbers, you try and find a way to turn positive news into negative news. Very imaginative. So tell me again that if all the economic numbers and metrics were in negative territory, let's assume, tell me that you wouldn't be quoting the numbers as gospel and blaming the President and his policies. You know darn well that you would. Just like you know darn well that you were insinuating that I said that all southerners were racist by mentioning that an African American won a race in the south. You just won't admit it and you know it. And of course I fact check everything I say, who wouldn't, you'd get pounced on for any even slight error, heck I even get skewered for spelling errors. And no I will not provide links, you can all do the research yourselves on your own time. And yes mark I am quite aware of the difference between deficit and debt. Deficit is the difference between how much is going out and how much is comin in. Debt is how much you owe. How's that? The question is how do we reduce the debt. Start by reducing the deficit and maybe create a surplus like during the Clinton years. The disagreement is over how to reduce the debt. Be honest like Cindy, most on the right, notice how I didn't say all lest I be accused of bigotry, prefer cutting services to the lazy poor, cutting programs the protect our environment and the safety of our food and transportation systems and giving tax breaks and subsidies to the already rich, AKA trickle down economics. Most on the left, not all, (got to be careful here), prefer asking the very rich to pay their fair share of taxes, getting rid of corporate welfare, stop giving tax breaks to corporations who ship jobs overseas, reforming wall street and the banking industry, investing in the inner cities, spending on education and vocational training and rebuilding our nations infrastructure and thereby creating jobs and stimulating the economy. Which one of us has the right answer? Hard to say and that's why we have differences of opinion that shouldn't result in ad hominem attacks. I am expressing my opinion and I will continue to do so.

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john bailey 2 years, 5 months ago

fact checking from your lefty playbook again I see.....what a vision ya'll have...and of course we will express our opinion , I do find it telling there are no players from your side joining you in your crusade to spew your left wing garbage........hum ??

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Dan Shores 2 years, 5 months ago

Oh John, this is way off topic but I wanted to take a moment and answer your Cali question. Yeah I left because I could no longer stand the traffic, smog, gang bangers and the prospect of becoming a victim, caught in the crossfire between rival gangs, while stopped at a traffic light. I got really tired of the constant gray skies and the orange brown ring at the horizon that would give you a sore throat when engaging in strenuous physical activity. Waiting in long lines for virtually any activity, going to dinner, a movie, whatever. It was customary to wait in a really long line to buy a ticket to a show, then get in the next really long line and wait to get into the show. So there you have it. The question I have for you is, why in the world do you believe that anyone would, "run away" from such a life and then try to re-create the same thing here? That one has really got me baffled.

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john bailey 2 years, 5 months ago

and the rest of your kind , whats their reason ? think way back now , back in the 80's , seems they all wanted to expand their turf and bring it east , hows that working out ? I saw it happen before my very eyes . now about this solar company asking for a Federal grant of over a half mill to pay off their Federal construction loan of over 1.9 bill. hum , what state is this company from ? ya , you guessed it.....That's how you people think , you can take the rat outta da hood but.......good lord your so lost....

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john bailey 2 years, 5 months ago

poop , I forgot to ask you , Who built that scenario in Cali. ? jejeje lord have mercy.....

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john bailey 2 years, 5 months ago

so you fled the state created by the Liberal ideology and you bring that same thinking here, yet you see no problem with that ? wise up old man....

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Dan Kuechenmeister 2 years, 5 months ago

Dan S. You just can't stand researched responses to your talking points. Please pray tell, tell me how I disputed the numbers. Did I dispute the the unemployment rate at 5.8%. Is it not a fact that a lot of people have become discouraged, stopped looking for work and are not counted in the unemployment statistics. Is it not a fact that the average median income is lower today than it was in 2009. Is it not a fact that the stock market at record highs is helping the 1%ers way more then the middle and less then middle class. nice try but I do not blame the President solely for these problems. I blame our government. I blame the President, Senate, House of representatives. Just like I did when Bush, Clinton, et all were President. I am curious, how many Republican presidential candidates for President have you voted for? I'll show you mine if you show me yours. But pray tell, why are there hundreds of bills passed by the House that Harry Reid has not allowed to come to a vote. That is no way to govern. And tell me again how is it that President Obama is responsible for gas prices being at or below $3.00, and for what it's worth the average retail price for gasoline in January 2009 was $1.84. Hmmm what else happened in January 2009. Now PLEASE - do not accuse me of blaming the President for the higher gas prices. Just thought I would point out that the prices you are bragging on are not better then when Obama took office. And pray tell how is a projected increase in the deficit of $500 billion a decrease. Yes it will be less than last year and I am grateful for that, but in what world is an increase a decrease. But I don't see how a deficit increase from just under 6 Trillion in 2000 to just under 18 Trillion is any thing but a looming disaster.You accuse me of wanting services cut to the poor (you called them lazy) and cutting other policies. Please tell me when I have ever said that. There is only one thing I am in favor of cutting. Spending by the government. You can tax the "rich" to high heaven. They don't have enough money to fix the problems. Take all their money Dan S. I don't care. It won't matter. Tax them all you want. What has the current government done to reform wall street and the banking industry. Please enlighten me. The current administration is in just as deep as the previous administration. I could go on, but after awhile it is just worthless to post with you. In my opinion,You come from the 30% on the way left and way right that believe that their way is the one and true way. The 70% of us in the middle just shake our heads and wonder how this once great country got into this mess. You have called me a righty, a Tea Party member, a conservative, a Republican. I guess I can understand why you would try to place me in that box because i am not afraid to challenge you, and you being a true beliver - only people in the box you place me would dare challenge a true believer. Post on Dan S. Don't you worry, I will be here for you

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cindy constantine 2 years, 5 months ago

DanS--Food for thought-- 1) No reason to get "down in the dirt" with other posters. 2) If OC went away or modified it would mean more full time jobs for millions, many of which would include health plans again with employer contributions. 3) Affordable health care should be handled by private enterprise with perhaps a few new govt regulations (tort reform, nationwide competition) as this will be less costly than anything govt could do. ie: pro-bono services two days a month from docs in clinics attached to hospitals to keep runny noses out of the ER as one idea 4) TAX REFORM--I think all poster would agree that GE should pay corporate income taxes at some level if they saw bottom line profits of $8 bil. However of all the worlds population some are born chiefs and some are born and happy to be indians. Wouldn't you agree? Not everyone is born with the same mental capacity. That is just a fact and has nothing to do with circumstances they were born into. And frankly, some are just more motivated than others! 5) We are by far the most charitable country in the world! Many charities are set up to deal with pre-exiting conditions that are beyond the control of the individual as I mentioned in a previous post. If this country went to a modified flat tax, many would have MORE money to give to charity. Look at how many $5 checks came in to the Red Cross after Hurricanes Sandy and Katrina? This was all some were able to give but they did anyway. My charity of choice is Planned Parenthood because this organization should not be in govt budget to fund but I am a strong supporter of the services (affordable PAPs and family planning services) they provide to women. 6) We are first and foremost a nation of independent thinkers and MOST of the electorate does NOT vote strict party lines. That is why it is so discouraging that Obama is basically thumbing his nose at the election and forging ahead with his agenda that the people resoundingly said NO to. Many of his supporters did not come out to vote because they are probably too busy trying to make a living and his promises did not work for them.

This post is too long--too bad I have plenty more to say. LOL

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john bailey 2 years, 5 months ago

come on Cindy its not that long , I'd like to hear more from you please.....

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Dan Kuechenmeister 2 years, 5 months ago

Dan S. Here is a fun fact regards your comment on gas prices. "the evidence is quite clear, the Presidents economic policies have been a great success, the economy is improving, jobs are being created, the unemployment rate is now down to 5.8%, gas prices are down, " Did you know that during the Bush administration that according to the Bureau of Land Management the average number of acres leased was just over 3 million per year. In the first 5 years under Obama there have been an average of just over 1 million acres leased per year. If you don't believe me I will be happy to provide you the link so you can verify it for yourself. It's a BLM site. Cheers

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Dan Shores 2 years, 5 months ago

Cindy, glad you also see how posters like getting down in the dirt, this is nothing, you should have seen it before I had to call the editor and turn in the worst offender. Glad you're an adult and wouldn't go there. I agree with you more than you think. Big corporations like GE should pay taxes. I think we can all agree that tax reform is needed. Not everyone is born to be a chief, somebody has got to be the indian. I agree completely and this is the basis of many progressive ideals. The difference is that I believe access to insurance is a right and not a privilege. I also believe government should be responsible for making sure that insurance companies cannot discriminate. I believe that it is the responsibility of a just and civilized society to feed it's hungry, house it's homeless and offer a hand up to it's poor. I don't believe that we can rely on the goodness of others in the form of private donations to provide these services and fund organizations such as Planned Parenthood. Private donations could have never covered the costs of hurricanes Sandy and Katrina. Nor were there enough private investors who could have saved the auto industry. Thank goodness that the auto industry was saved or we could have had a major economic depression rather than a recession. But that's just me and part of what the progressive movement is all about. You mentioned that you use health savings accounts and the like to cover your medical costs. I personally use Care Credit and pay off my bills over time. I also take care of myself, don't smoke or drink alcohol and stay in good physical condition. These are all fine alternatives to health insurance except in the case of a catastrophic illness. Cancer, heart attack, stroke all can happen to even those in perfect physical condition. So that is the purpose of the ACA, to insure that no one goes broke and losses their home because they got sick. The President and I and many other progressives recognize that there are problems with the ACA, it is by no means perfect, but it's a start. We would have preferred a public option that would of forced private insurance companies to compete and provided an option to purchase a plan offered through the federal government. That idea was rejected by republicans in congress and the republican alternative is the individual mandate that you all complain so much about. It's possible that more people would be on full time work if the ACA went away but like I said, then millions wouldn't have access to heath insurance. You can't have em both just yet. The President is acting on the mandate that he was given by the voters who elected him twice. In my opinion he hasn't done enough to push through more progressive policies. The mid term election included only about one third of registered voters and included a large percentage of older white voters and many progressives just didn't show up. This is certainly not a mandate.

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Dan Shores 2 years, 5 months ago

Dan K. I don't understand your BLM thing. Sorry. Like I said you can come up with all sorts of excuses about the economic success during the Obama Presidency and how he has had nothing to do with the success. Who cares? And it is equally certain, like I said earlier, that if the economy was tanking you'd be claiming that the numbers were irrefutable proof that his policies were a failure. You know it! John, just this morning when I walked out of my house I marveled at how clean and fresh the air was. I'll never forget how wonderful it is to be able to breath clean fresh air and drink clean water from my well every day. Even after more that twenty years I still marvel at it and at how blue the sky is. Don't get that in LA. That's why I'm so passionate about making sure it stays that way. Unless you've grown up breathing filthy polluted air, I'm not sure you can fully appreciate what I am saying. I moved here for that and because I don't want to worry about being shot, except now maybe by some right wing nut job militiamen, I don't want to sit in traffic and deal with crowds. I came her to Steamboat because I wanted to work at a world class resort, guess I got that wrong according to you, and enjoy the equestrian community. Still don't understand how or why you would think I would want to bring crowds, gangs, traffic, dirty air and water to Steamboat. Makes no sense at all. Anyway, you are stuck with me and I ain't movin til I'm good and ready, so too bad. I have absolutely no idea what you could possibly be talking about regarding Californians and whatever, it's not intelligible.

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cindy constantine 2 years, 5 months ago

Why do you think 2/3rd of the voters and many progressives did not show up? While republicans won in a landslide so did many state wide progressive legislation including more states approving mj for rec. use, person hood amendments going down in flames, minimum wage increases where it was on the ballot---all fitting with the liberal agenda. Do not whitewash the election results---Obama's policies are extremely unpopular and the voters (lots of independents I might add) want him STOPPED. Believe me the republican party gives very few a warm fuzzy feeling and frankly they know it! And if millions more Americans had good, full time jobs and tax reform was such that corporations brought thousands of jobs back to the US, health care would almost be rendered moot because it would become available to those willing to work. Trillions of $$ is sitting on the sidelines waiting to be invested in jobs and R&D, but govt regulation, including OC as it now stands, and taxes have businesses in a strangle hold. Cheers! .

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Dan Kuechenmeister 2 years, 5 months ago

Sorry Dan S. I deal in facts, you deal in opinions. Sorry you don't understand the BLM thing. No surprise thought because the fact that more land was leased for oil and gas exploration under Bush then Obama would refute your claim that gas prices are down because of current administration policies, notwithstanding that price of gas was $1.84 when current President took office and it is just under $3.00 now. And that's the fact Jack. (love the movie Stripes) Still waiting for you to explain how a projected 500 billion increase in the deficit in 2014 is a decrease in the deficit. It is your opinion that there is a decrease in the deficit, the fact is there is an increase. Also, I find it funny in a sad sort of way that you who has made nasty comments in this forum would have some one else removed. I figured some one that lived through this "gang bangers and the prospect of becoming a victim, caught in the crossfire between rival gangs, while stopped at a traffic light" would be able to handle a little verbal animus. Here are a few of your recent quotes "you recall I said that the racist southern democrats" "A schizophrenic electorate that would elect Tea Bagger Cory Gardner" "Christian beliefs can be the only explanation for opposition to gay marriage and banning all abortions regardless of the circumstance." Personally, I could not care less.

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john bailey 2 years, 5 months ago

and how'd that call to the editor work out for ya Dan ? I bounced around as an Air Force brat while my dad served his country , saw lots of great places but decided Colorado was for me and so did the rest of my family. I guess we are in agreement about the blue sky and clean air we breathe , mine may be a little better as the county is by far nicer and quieter than the big xitty. nothing like a cattle drive traffic jam.....keep in mind my answers to your questionnaire some time back you seem to forget who your talking to. the biggest issue with you is you think the left can solve all problems disregarding all other input , i.e. California being in the toilet , and the fact your constant whining no matter if you get your way or not . and yes if you wanted to work at a World Class resort , its over in the Vail Valley , you stopped short I'd say.LOL

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Dan Shores 2 years, 5 months ago

John my call to the editor worked out really well. You must have got a good spankin cause you've toned down your personal insults quite a bit. They're still there, and they are still there with the rest of the "tribe", but they're more subtle and not as obscene, must be difficult for you all having to deal with someone who doesn't agree with you. Cindy we are really not that far apart. Better be careful, you'll be called a "libby." Two thirds of registered voters ddn't show up, that's just a fact, not my opinion. I can't explain why liberal amendments passed and republicans were elected to congress. Like I said schizophrenic. Don't agree with you on health insurance obviously, or that the Presidents policies are unpopular, other wise he wouldn't have been re-elected, or the the ACA is dragging down the economy. No evidence and the economy is doing quite well even with the disfunction in Washington. Agree that the republican party needs to do some serious work on it's messaging. The party's approval rating is somewhere in the twenties, congress in the single digits if think, democrats in the thirties and the President at forty two percent, I think. I believe that is why many of the posters here won't say that they are republicans. Again, got to be careful lest I be accused of putting words in someones mouth, they claim to be independent, but they vote GOP party line, I bet, and support right wing policies. So I say, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck! Dan K. the comments I made in the past were in self defense and I realized I was getting dragged down into the gutter with your little group so I stopped and apologized. What else do you want me to do? I didn't say, once again, that you dispute the numbers, but what you are doing is trying to spin them to seem bad when they are good. You must be getting dizzy! Yes some people may have stopped looking for work, but 5.8% is still good! Hundreds of thousands of jobs are being added every month, even with the job killing ACA, and have been for over 50 months as opposed to losing 800,000 a month under Bush. I stand by all of my quotes that you cited. You are always asking me to prove stuff, prove my quotes wrong. As for gas prices, the latest story I heard is that the Saudis are refusing to cooperate with the other OPEC nations and refuse to limit the supply of oil because they want to increase their market share. So more supply equals cheaper gas. May have no direct correlation the President but I think it is fair to say that increased production in the US and increases in bio-fuels and alternative energy sources coupled with decreased demand due to fuel economy standards doesn't hurt. As for the stock market, the markets gave always been considered an indicator of how business view the economy in the future. The markets hate uncertainty, so the markets are bullish on the future and guess who is President.

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john bailey 2 years, 5 months ago

back for more huh ? actually Lisa was very gracious and let me talk and have a say , much different then what you lefties will allow and well of course I had to change some tactics in regard to your spewing your garbage out of respect for her request , kinda sad you can't fight your own battles and have to call in the powers that be to help you out cause that's how weak and cowardly you are Mr Hall Monitor .wouldn't be right if we didn't agree Dan as you can see we get a chuckle out of your desperation defending your side as the lefty leadership has been castrated for the time being. we'll let this thing play out. and Cindy can give you a kinder more gentler beat down until your moral improves , now enjoy the day as we're in for a change , but all hope is lost for you.....

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Dan Shores 2 years, 5 months ago

Hey John, hahahahahahahahha! Spanked! The real shame is that you can't act like an adult and debate without insulting people. Sad and pathetic.

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john bailey 2 years, 5 months ago

just an observation to prove how you twist facts to fit your agenda , I in fact did not get spanked , Lisa and I exchanged emails about your cowardly call and her last one was a "thank you" to me. now i'll wait as you go back and research my posts after this took place. go ahead I challenge you. you see Dan , your age and loss of memory can play tricks to affect your judgement , go ahead do some research , the proof is there for all to see. now who's sad a pathetic ? some deserve the insult to drive home how pathetic one is to go so deep in their hatred for those who do not agree with them ,no ? LOL I see you is still mad , huh ,bro ? now don't get your knickers dirty . jejeje

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rhys jones 2 years, 5 months ago

I'm really enjoying this thread!! The tete-a-tete is reminiscent of Ali-Frazier in the 13th round, both fighters punch-drunk -- but the gloves are off now, and it's no-holds-barred. Whatever nasties one thinks will slide by the censors, are fair game.

Or maybe a World Cup ski race, all the coaches from everywhere -- everybody's talking, and nobody's listening.

Or a great sea battle, the shells flying freely, splashing off the bows... Dan S appears surrounded, his cannons firing in all directions.

This comment is in support of neither side -- I bailed on this one a while back. And I voted for Reps and Dems both, actually got most of them right. So don't bring my name up. Ain't my fault.

Pardon this digression. Whose shot is it now?

(too bad it's not chess: Oh -- is it my move? Sorry.)

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Dan Kuechenmeister 2 years, 5 months ago

Rhys, I was thinking WWF tag team. Dan S. Has the Pilot in his corner, at least based on him getting one poster banned and another scolded.

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Rick Pighini 2 years, 5 months ago

I saw earlier in one of the posts that someone said the price of gas, when Obama took over, was $1.88/gal. That is kind of true. But the reality is from May of 2008 thru July gas prices hit a all time high. The price for a gallon of gas in July of 2008 was between $3.75- $4.12. Then once the financial markets collapsed in October the price dropped dramatically to $2.50 and below. This fact took a lot of money from the average American, which probably helped contribute to the financial down turn. I know my company was hit hard by this spike in fuel costs. It took away a lot of cash flow for the upcoming winter. We were not prepared or ready to get it in on our billing. Who's resopnsible? All of us, Supply and demand that's who's responsible. Not a good or true assessment of any President. Oil companies produce more oil when there is money to be made and close them up when there isn't. Example, Baggs Wyo.

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Michael Bird 2 years, 5 months ago

Prior to ACA, individual health insurance policies excluded maternity,except where it could be added at an additional cost on some policies, and excluded some coverages provided by group insurance. Pre-existing in Colorado could be covered after a 6 month wait (excluding pregnancy & renal kidney) with Cover Colorado - individual health plsn. It was expensive. . Corporations of one or more employees were guaranteed issue policies ,which included pre-existing. Pre-existing was excluded by individual policies. Large group policies had no pre-existing exclusions. If one were responsible and bought an individual policy and kept it, minor and major expenses would be covered even after having a serious medical problem or disease. Couldn't be canceled for claims Too many didn't though. Adding pre-existing and/or pregnancy would significantly increase the price of an individual policy.as would adding mental health, autism, or any other excluded disorders. There was virtually no real health cost containment and there still isn't. If insurance companies were deleted and a single payer system were installed, the cost savings would be minimal because 1. federal employees would run the program and their pay, benefits, and defined pension far exceed insurance company employees 2. no cost reductions. The pharma lobbyists wrote every single word of ACA pharma section -not one legislator and obtaining bids is illegal. WHAT ? As on 20/20 TV. Remember insurance cos profits are highly regulated and are below S&P 500 average by 3% (7% -10%) Ever notice that State Farm,Hartford, GEICO,Allstate,Farmers, Travelers,etc. do NOT sell health insurance. If it were so profitable and they are in the business of profit, wouldn't you think they would ? So where does my rambling commentary leave us ? I believe it is best to compromise and let private industry handle health insuranc but all policies must include pre-existing but only after a 6 month wait. Otherwise, a person who, for example, needs an ACL could but a policy, have the operation 2 wks later, and then drop it. Maternity would have a 9 month wait.. Laws would be changed to allow State's bidding for druds. Pricing standards instituted. No more $1200 MRIs at one hospital and $2500 at another. No in/out Networks - standardized example..Comments ? -------------------------------

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cindy constantine 2 years, 5 months ago

As a small business owner having to pay for our policies with no govt assistance you get a big thumbs up from me. We had good policies from Cover Colorado that were cancelled with ACA and now our premiums are double what they were and will go up again in 2015. We are thinking of just dropping insurance altogether and putting the premiums in a savings account and take our chances . . . . .

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Chris Hadlock 2 years, 5 months ago

Your opinion stinks, Oh yeah, your mother wears combat boots. It would be nice if you guys would actually argue and attack policy positions instead of the personal vendettas that seem to be so prevalent in these discussions. There are problems and issues that need discussion and debate instead of personal vitriol. Let's all try to keep it clean out there OK?

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john bailey 2 years, 5 months ago

hey ya Chris, there is no arguing any policies with this dolt, notice that its all directed to one rat amongst us regulars I have no issues with most that disagree with my take on things just this one. Scott W included and this rat need to be outted as soon as possible , I have a feeling there is more to this person then he is letting on......Jerry , what was that question you asked and was never answered ? at least he is coming around about all the lies being told by this lame duck idiot in chief....ACA my backside . all a lie ........from the get go in 08 , all a lie.......

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Chris Hadlock 2 years, 5 months ago

Perhaps if you viewed it more as a discussion or debate instead of an argument the tone could improve. This is a two way street John and while I am certainly no angel in this area, I would hope that each of us including our elected officials could try to find a higher road and work toward any potential common ground instead of referring to each other as "dolts" and "rats".

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Dan Kuechenmeister 2 years, 5 months ago

I agree Chris, I would prefer reasonable and open minded give and take but when some one states an opinion as fact then I am going to use facts to show why an opinion is not fact. For example when some one states that the deficit is being reduced, when in fact it is projected to be up 500 billion and uses his "fact" as proof that the current president's economic policies are working then that needs to be corrected. Also when a poster claims that I said something I didn't, I will politely ask that person for proof. So far that person has refused to do so. I won't stoop so low as to ask the Pilot to intervene and have that person placed on double secret probation as that particular person has done. I am fully capable of taking care of myself and don't need big brothers help. You know the old "sticks and stones can break my bones, but names can never hurt me" thingy. You may or not be aware and maybe you don't care but the person I speak of has had one person removed and another reprimanded by the Pilot. Welcome back by the way, hope you had a nice trip.

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Chris Hadlock 2 years, 5 months ago

Who was removed? Peru was awesome and that is such a small word for what we saw.

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jerry carlton 2 years, 5 months ago

John Bailey Dan Shores stated the deficit was going down and I asked him if he had any proof of that. I have not seen any news stories saying that. Not surprisingly, he did not get back to me.

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john bailey 2 years, 5 months ago

i was referencing your question of his relationship with the Pilot , a question you asked along time ago. I see the cat is out of the bag .....

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Dan Kuechenmeister 2 years, 5 months ago

Chris, Steve Mendell and did you get to Machu Pichu. If so jealous. On my bucket list.

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Chris Hadlock 2 years, 5 months ago

Dan, yes we did the Salcantay trek which gets as high as 15,200' and ends in Agua Calliente at 6000' with a full day in Machu Pichu. What an amazing adventure. This was the opportunity of a lifetime and all the blisters and pain were worth it. Look my name up on Facebook, all of the trek pics are public.

I think we should seriously reconsider our definition of ancient people as primitive. Just the engineering required is jaw dropping. They still have functioning water delivery systems that work to this day. How long would our modern systems work? No one has inhabited the place since the early 1500's.

I thought we were never sure why Steve Mendell was banned.....

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Dan Kuechenmeister 2 years, 5 months ago

Jerry, Deficit is not going up in 2014 as much as 2013 so I guess in Dan S. Mind the deficit is going down. At some point one would think he would say oops my bad. I mean we all make mistakes. Be careful, though, Dan S. Has had Steve Mendell booted and John B scolded

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rhys jones 2 years, 5 months ago

As I noted in another place - don't confuse the deficit with the debt. We're still going deeper in the hole, just slightly less quickly.

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Dan Kuechenmeister 2 years, 5 months ago

Chris, I have confirmation as to why Steve was banned. Good for you for going to Machu Pichu. Will definitely stalk you on Facebook for pictures. Thanks for the info.

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Dan Kuechenmeister 2 years, 5 months ago

Here is the result of my communication with Steve Mendell

Steve Mendell 6:16pm Nov 10 Hey Dan,

I would describe it to the forum this way:

1) That Lisa offered to reinstate my account provided I admitted to wrong doing and promised not to reoffend.

2) That I refused to admit to any (nonexistent) wrong doing and declined her offer. She NEVER presented me with ANY violation of their rules, ONLY that certain people objected to what I had to say (in the form of credibly substantiated facts) and that I was required not to offend them in the future.

3) That I countered with a proposal that she publish an editorial admitting that she banned me without just cause & offering a public apology to me and the community.

4) That she declined my offer & we reached an impasse

All The Best, Steve Mendell

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john bailey 2 years, 5 months ago

jejejeje yes , you may want to do that Pat , you never know who is monitoring these halls.....

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john bailey 2 years, 5 months ago

wow Chris , what a trip , sounds like a truly great time. now as you can see there truly are rats among us and who pray tell was the other? sad this is how the progressives operate they don't like what they hear so they they gather and try to shut down opposing views. I saw nothing but facts being provided by Steve and he gets shut down for that . BS I say , says a lot about how this paper handled this situation also, Pilot you got anything to say for yourself ? I and others would like to hear from you . thanks Dan K for bringing this to light now if the current occupant would do the same thing we would be much better off ,no ?

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Chris Hadlock 2 years, 5 months ago

I too would like to hear the Pilots justification for banning Steve. I have seen many personal attacks that violate their policies yet those posters continue to provide inflammatory personal attacks and comments on a regular basis.

Steve definitely had a point of view that many would disagree with, but I do not remember any specific personal attacks by him, just a constant stream about his particular point of view.

IMO, this forum was actually more vibrant when anonymous posting was allowed, and I still maintain that being anonymous should limit the number of posts you are allowed while people that choose to share their identity would have unlimited posting potential. That policy would stop the worst excesses while still allowing the free flow of ideas.

The current policy by the Pilot has decimated the commentary and has completely failed to tone down the abusive nature of these forums. How about it Pilot? Give your loyal readers a response here!

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Dan Kuechenmeister 2 years, 5 months ago

Pat, I think the Pilot is pretty open minded about what gets posted on this forum. I suspect you or any one else would really have to go off the rails for the Pilot to ban some one. How ever should another person on this forum take issue with your posts and file a complaint, it looks like the standards for banishment become a bit lower. I am just speculating as I don't know Steve Mendell personally ( I did ask for his permission to make public the information he provided me after he reached out to me - Easy to find some one with the last name of Kuechenmeister i guess) and we have not discussed this. I am guessing that he still follows the posts in this forum and once the person who had him banned outed himself and then bragged about getting another person on this forum "spanked" Steve felt comfortable sharing his side of the story thus answering the questions a lot of us had about his sudden disappearance. My preference is that while strong language is OK and some times appropriate that eff bombs and other crude language has no place. Cheers

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rhys jones 2 years, 5 months ago

Throw my hat in with those who would like a further explanation from the Pilot as to why Steve was banned. He just told it like he saw it, not overtly offensive to anyone. I find it hard to believe he was banned based on complaints; many are far more offensive. Even me, on occasion. I've had individual comments yanked, but here I am.

I thought I heard something about identity issues, ie, Steve was not who he represented himself to be. Whoever he was, he was not short on technical knowledge -- in fact runs circles around me, in certain aspects of computerdom. I kinda miss him -- he kept me on my toes.

Did anyone ever see him at a free concert? I missed every one last summer. Who WAS that mystery man?

I had a stalker in here once, researched some stuff I said, causing some embarrassment in the family, and in fact unwittingly endangering both themselves and me -- I complained to the Pilot in a private letter; this matter was more serious than it appeared -- yet nobody disappeared from the forums after that event. We were the subject of discussions in places I would rather not imagine. I have a pretty good idea who it was, and if right, they're still here, blasting away with both barrels.

I agree with Chris, that these forums were more colorful and entertaining when they were optionally anonymous. More people contributed, and spoke their mind openly. While I never hid behind anonymity -- I wanted you to know who thinks these strange thoughts -- I kinda miss the highwaystar. That moniker was earned -- Deep Purple wrote it just for me. No ego here. I've got stories...

So what happened to Steve, Pilot? Does somebody really have that much pull with you?

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Jeff Kibler 2 years, 5 months ago

Rhys, that's what I thought. Either a fake name or some other identity issue. Have you mastered Qt yet? If so, you can get a job that pays a lot more than dish washing.

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rhys jones 2 years, 5 months ago

I just got a contact from another contributor here, who says they have it on good authority of a friend of theirs, that Steve is who he says he is. Well shiver me timbers. Tailor-made, for the conspiracy theorists among us. I'm sure some might like you to think they have the power to get you evicted. Doubtful the Pilot will ever reveal the actual aggrieved individual(s). I remember other rumors about that, back then, nobody yakking today.

Must admit ignorance of Qt -- what's that? Nothing Microsoft-based, I would hope. I'm not getting rich -- yet -- but PHP/MySQL is serving my needs lately... on the other hand -- I know so many by now, new languages are routine; I probably already know one like it... I used to say I could pick up a new language in 20 minutes, before I met C... why, do you know of something specific?

I'm sure I could make a lot more money somewhere else -- programming opportunities locally are extremely limited; I'm lucky to find what I do, even at sub-industry-standard rates -- but that would require relocation -- and as objectionable as I find certain aspects of this Nation -- this little corner suits me just fine, and I don't want to leave just yet.

PS -- Dishwashing is the best spot in the kitchen. If you do it right, everybody loves you. Nobody else wants to be there. Best of all, you're on nobody's schedule but your own. No "two minutes out" like the line guys -- and you're not chained to a spot like a prep cook.

The people you meet in the course of your duties are GREAT. Programming is not conducive to a social life.

Best of all is, not the pass, but the locker. I HATE carting that crap around. Now I can go straight from the hill, to downtown Saturday night, no stops in between. Just sayin'...

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Jeff Kibler 2 years, 5 months ago

Nice edit, Rhys. Second thoughts? Qt is a (somewhat portable) framework based upon C++. I'm converting an old GUI to a better/newer GUI via Qt. It's free and massive, way more than a GUI.

It will work on your Linux nerd box, just as it works on my Windows 7 nerd machine.
Presently, when I don't have another panic du jour to attend to, I'm porting a Qt windows app to Android. Same code, different day.

You're definitely right about nerding not being a social thing. That's why I play music with my friends whenever I have the opportunity.

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Scott Wedel 2 years, 5 months ago

Steve's problem was he was relentlessly posting borderline posts insulting those he disagreed with.

So paper asked him to back off. He could have said okay, issued a unapologetic apology (sorry that those that misunderstand me are offended) and continued on without making any substantive changes.

Instead he refused to even give lip service to play by the paper's rules in the paper's forums so easy enough for paper to say no posting for you.

Paper's rules overall are such a joke. One of most blatant personal attacks was written by Rob Douglas and it was never removed.

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Jeff Kibler 2 years, 5 months ago

Yep, Rob Douglas labeled Scott Wedel an intellectual coward or sissy or some other nonsense. I'm sure Scott has the exact phrasing burned into his reptilian (sarc) brain. Rob's column is history.

Back in the day I queried the editor if they could find a counterpoint to Rob. I mentioned Steve Lewis and Scott W. as potential contributors. I was told that Steve declined, never heard anything about Scott either way.

Scott, did they ever ask you to contribute?

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Scott Wedel 2 years, 5 months ago

Rob's post said I never did anything which annoys me because it is simply false. I wrote an Initiative Petition to change Oak Creek's insane commercial land use rules and collected enough signatures to force Town Board to either accept it or put it on the ballot. Then there was a meeting where it was agreed to incorporate the goals with a bit less of a sledgehammer approach and that was passed by the Town Board.

Not many other people have gotten involved enough with government to do something like that. And that isn't my only involvement with government. I think it can fairly be said that I led the effort to repeal Oak Creek's Ordinance 619 that would have made property owners liable for their tenant's unpaid utility bills.. And so on.

That is what annoys me about Rob's post. Personally criticizing someone for posting is supposed to be against the rules and it is provably factually false. Absolutely no way that paper can claim to being consistent with what is and is not allowed.

BTW, paper never contacted me.

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cindy constantine 2 years, 5 months ago

What a bunch of whiners and gossips! I thought the testosterone in the room was bigger than this but guess not. What must DMB think about 100+ posts under her "winning" article and maybe 2 were about her. At least the Colorado State House will be redder this go around and I only hope we see a moderate republican (moving right of center) in Hick with these election results. Even though I consider him to be a hay seed, I have to believe the national sentiment is not lost on him.

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Jeff Kibler 2 years, 5 months ago

Cindy, correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the Colorado State House still maintains a (D) majority, while the State Senate has a one vote (R) majority.

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cindy constantine 2 years, 5 months ago

Of course you are right I said "redder" not a majority

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Chris Hadlock 2 years, 5 months ago

Not sure I consider anything I have said to be whining Cindy. This forum is just one of many that has "gone off the rails" in terms of subject matter :)

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Dan Kuechenmeister 2 years, 5 months ago

Steve S. has asked that I post this. Feel free to also add that I received no warning before being banished. In fact, I was not even told I had been banished. My account and all my posts simply disappeared without warning & without notice. I then emailed Lisa & our negotiations began (and soon ended in an impasse).

Then again, what could Lisa have warned me about? Would she have warned me that I must not offend certain people with credibly substantiated, quantitative facts? Well, actually, that was precisely the position she took in her "negotiations". She didn't state it quite that way. She only said I must not offend people. We all know what that meant.

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Jeff Kibler 2 years, 5 months ago

We've become a caste of the chronically offended. So much for sticks and stones ...

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Scott Wedel 2 years, 5 months ago

I think Steve's answer shows the heart of the problem. Instead of simply saying no intent to offend, he says he doesn't care that people are offended.

And his were not blatantly offensive, but they often would contain general insults to everyone that didn't agree with him.

For him to say it was because of his facts and not the potshots probably made it very easy for the paper to be done with his posts.

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Dan Kuechenmeister 2 years, 5 months ago

I guess you could categorize any one that feels the need to complain to the pilot about what was said about them a whiner

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jerry carlton 2 years, 5 months ago

John Bailey I had pretty much forgotten that question it was so long ago. Of course my 70 year old memory does not function like it did when I was 60. As I remember I asked something like are you the same Dan Shores that advertises real estate in the Pilot. I can not remember ever seeing a reply. So the deficit is really going to be less in 2014 than 2013? I am so happy, I think I will go out and dance in the street. It is still a deficit so the government is still going deeper into bankruptcy, just not quite as fast. Last time the government ran a surplus and reduced the debt was under Clinton. That and Monica Lewinsky were Clinton's shining moments.

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john bailey 2 years, 5 months ago

jejeje , i'll meet ya in the street Jerry.......have a cigar too.....

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Dan Shores 2 years, 5 months ago

Rules are rules boys and girls. If you can't play by em, get out of the sandbox. Maybe you guys should set up a betting pool to see who will be next to go. Who will get so frustrated with me that they totally blow a gasket and get banned. You could set up a little calendar with squares and you could put your initials on a square. Might be kinda fun. I would love to take credit for the demise of Steve M. however I had nothing to do with it and didn't even know about the Pilot policy at that time. It wasn't until his removal that I learned there was a policy. While that boy certainly had issues, I don't remember him being crude and insulting, just plum nuts. I still think he went underground voluntarily, succumbed to his paranoid delusions would be my guess. Hey but if you want to blame me I'm good with it. The truth is irrelevant anyway to the tribe on this forum, it just gets in everybody's way and becomes a big pain in the rear. Oh, almost forgot, the deficit as a share of GDP, that's how it's measured, has been cut roughly in half during the Obama Presidency. In 2009 the deficit was 9.8% of GDP. As of 2013 it is 4.1% of GDP. The CBO projection for 2014 is a reduction of 508 billion or 2.9% of GDP. There. If your only source of news and information is Fox News then of course you wouldn't have heard of this. You could have also looked this up yourself and saved me the time. So there are the facts and your answer. Argue about that for awhile. I'm sure if I said the earth was round you'd say it was flat, or if I said it was night, you'd say it was day, or if I said the sky was blue, you'd say it was green. Like I said who cares, believe what you want.

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Scott Wedel 2 years, 5 months ago

This is the exact sort of post that should be deleted, not that John should be banned.

"you are the rat and we all know it.....you should be ashamed of yourself" and so on.

These forums are supposed to be about ideas and not name calling. Just because it ends with a LOL shouldn't allow a string of insults.

This stupid paper. One post gets deleted and then this becomes a reply to the previous post.

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john bailey 2 years, 5 months ago

well thanks Scott W. , I think......HA , that post looks like a threat actually , is that allowed ?

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rhys jones 2 years, 5 months ago

Well I'm just gonna pick up my marbles and go home then. Call ME a whiner. And gossip. Testosterone -- let's not go there. I'm not insecure. That was aimed at ME.

I think I'll just curl up with my book, giving the budget and liver momentary respite. Murder mystery. THIS guy can WRITE.

I think DMB is flattered, that we chose her article for our soapbox.

I made this a new comment, instead of the reply it is, to save you all from frantically scrolling up -- is that a thoughtful troll, or what?

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mark hartless 2 years, 5 months ago

If you guys keep going you can set a record for number of posts for an article, if not already...

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rhys jones 2 years, 5 months ago

Hey, what are YOU doing here? Aren't you slinging barbs over under the "right and duty" thread? What brings you here? Couldn't stay away? Next thing you know, Scott W will be piping up, complaining about verbiage, Bill will chime in about drunks, and this will be a regular hootenany.

We had a perfectly good little squabble going on, until an unnamed whiner rang in, crying about whiners -- and now I'm whining about that.

If the forums are not for whining, what ARE they for? Singing the company song?

Whine not, you say? Whine ever, I respond.

Now go play in your own sandbox. I'm going back to my book.

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john bailey 2 years, 5 months ago

100 bottles of beer on the wall , 100 bottles of beer.........~;0)

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Jeff Kibler 2 years, 5 months ago

Thumbs up, Rhys. That's pretty darn funny. Sounds like we have an infinite whining feedback loop going on. I might have to bug you about php since I had another web project dumped onto my lap today. Talk about vomitous!

Dang, sorry everybody that's way too large. How about thisinstead?

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Jeff Kibler 2 years, 5 months ago

That my friends is how you have a post (soon to be) deleted.

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Jeff Kibler 2 years, 5 months ago

Chris H, what about PHP interfacing with cc-cgi? Last web thing I did (gag me, Lady Gaga) was HTML, CSS, Javascript and cc-cgi(C++). The cgi/C++ part gave us the interface to the non-standard C++-based database my clients use.
It's always something.
I'm gonna go and drink a few beers and play 4+20 and Suite Judy Blue Eyes in the D Modal tuning (DADDAD).

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Chris Hadlock 2 years, 5 months ago

Ouch, when you combine all those different languages that is truly vomitous! Standardize to SQL if at all possible :)

You better drink several beers before attacking that one. I am sure Rhys has a few suggestions but that is his call to help you refine your logical abilities.

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Jeff Kibler 2 years, 5 months ago

Thanks Chris. I was looking for an excuse to avoid HTML. Given the complexities, I don't have another option. I'm dealing with an application that was first released in the 90's. Some archaic stuff, so I have no choice vis-à-vis the database. But hey, they're my friends and I'm helping their small company.

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john bailey 2 years, 5 months ago

Rhys , you have such a fan club.........jejejeje great job Jeff......~;0)

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Jeff Kibler 2 years, 5 months ago

John, you deserve a little thumbs up yourself, e.g.

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rhys jones 2 years, 5 months ago

Jeff -- Way cool!! How did you do that? I don't see how to include attachments, especially in a Reply. href won't do it -- that's for links -- img src would require your image to be on the server, you knowing where... that's a pretty good trick!! And I say I'm a nerd. Please click my name with your response -- should you deign -- so the folks don't realize how dumb I really am -- and the forums aren't suddenly polluted with everybody's vacation photos. I don't get vacations. Those pictures hurt.

I am actually very competent, within my own limited sphere. Lucky for me, PHP/MySQL are within that sphere, and web programming is my forte. I've got some time on my hands right now (explaining my voluminous contributions herein lately) so if I can help, clue me in!!

Excuse my delayed response -- but it looks like one of the good guys, might be a bad guy -- spelling trouble for our protagonist -- I'm on the edge of my seat.

Ever have that happen, when you can't stop turning pages -- yet you don't want it end? Books take me where I might otherwise never go. And whet my appetite for places yet unseen. Ahh, Italy...

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Jeff Kibler 2 years, 5 months ago

Rhys, you had it right, img src. If you're curious you can view the page source with ctrl-U in Firefox. Thanks for the offer of help. As I explained of Chris above, I'm pretty much stuck with HTML/CSS/JS and cgicc on this project. I really, really, really hate web programming.

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Chris Hadlock 2 years, 5 months ago

Not even Mark, an MJ article a few years ago went well over 600 posts. In fact under the anonymous policy almost every single article that generated interest went easily over 100 posts and 200 was quite common.

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mark hartless 2 years, 5 months ago

Guess I wasn't paying attention. I thought 150's was near record territory.

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Scott Wedel 2 years, 5 months ago

I didn't complain.

But "why Steve was banned" is Steve's fault according to what was posted as a message from Steve. When told by someone in charge that you are offending others then you are supposed to at least pretend to care.

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Dan Shores 2 years, 5 months ago

Whoa, whoa,whoa, I thought I was the "rat" who got Steve banned. It was going to add to my mystic and help to create that little nagging feeling that I just might be that powerful and hold sway with the ed staff. Here's the deal children, your ability to comment here is solely at the discretion of the Pilot ed staff. You have no constitutional rights, you have no free speech rights, you got nothin! You either act like adults and debate the issues and avoid ad hominem, (personal), attacks or threats and be civil and don't use profanity, (even by omitting or substituting letters), or you may/will be banned and I'll be the one turning your sorry self in and I'll tell you all about it! How hard is that to understand. And I still have trouble understanding how some people feel like it is a badge of honor to insult people, like they think they're one of the "cool kids"or something. I would think you would be embarrassed by your childish and immature behavior, but instead you somehow feel proud and complain about being "ratted out" as you call it. Reminds me of kids who sit in the back of class and throw spit balls and make fun of the smart kids. Very bizarre behavior indeed. Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. Maybe a little "tact" and civility could be employed by those who feel the necessity to tell someone to "go to hell." The anger stems from not having anything intelligent to say, and or frustration when you realize that your ideological pre-concieved notions are destroyed by fact, logic and the truth. Conservatives tend to be angry and riddled with fear anyway. The combination of anger and fear equals hate. There is no place for hate in a reasonable discussion. Topic switch. Jerry C., what business is it of yours where I work or what I do for a living? I'll give you a tip, they got this thing called the internet and on the internet they got these things called search engines. You can go on there and look me up and find out what you want to know. You can also go to the ski area this winter and look for me there. I'm there almost everyday and Im not hard to miss. I'll be wearing neon green pants and a really bright blue jacket with white letters on the back and I got a gold pin and a white name tag on the front of my jacket. See if you can keep up.

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mark hartless 2 years, 5 months ago

If I could buy you for what you're worth and sell you for what you think you're worth, Dan, I'd be riding a brand new sled every winter...

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jerry carlton 2 years, 5 months ago

Dan Shores A little sensitive? So if the government continues to reduce the deficit at this rate how long will it be until it is in a surplus or will the country collapse first? I almost never watch Fox News. I usually watch CBS and read the news paper every day.

Scott W. "This stupid paper." Sounds like an attack and name calling on our fine, FREE newspaper.

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Scott Wedel 2 years, 5 months ago

"this stupid paper" is not calling any particular person "stupid". So it slips by as not being worth enforcing. :)

And your comment is just as guilty by the cynical ironic use of "fine newspaper". I'm sure you'll be okay because you are such a fine person.

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Dan Shores 2 years, 5 months ago

As I said John, those who have nothing intelligent to say have nothing left but anger and frustration. Maybe I can get you so frustrated that you totally blow a fuse and you get banned. That would be a huge improvement to the opportunity we all have for a civil, intelligent debate. Spelling check, should have been mystique, not mystic. Jerry, not sensitive at all, it's just none of your business, but if your really that curious, now you now how to find out instead of wasting everyones time here. Maybe you can do the deficit reduction calculation in your spare time. I'm a little busy. I was responding to the accusation that the deficit wasn't being reduced. So there you go.

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Dan Kuechenmeister 2 years, 5 months ago

John B. Is this the Gruber guy you are asking Dan S. about? a panel discussion captured on video, Gruber explained that the individual mandate is not a tax, and was presented as one in order “to make sure CBO did not score the mandate as taxes.” Team Obama deemed the deception critical because “if CBO scored the mandate as taxes, the bill dies.”

Gruber expanded on the theme of deception:

In terms of risk rated subsidies, if you had a law which said that healthy people are going to pay in – you made explicit healthy people pay in and sick people get money, it would not have passed… Lack of transparency is a huge political advantage. And basically, call it the stupidity of the American voter or whatever, but basically that was really, really critical for the thing to pass.

Or this. Gruber stated: “I think what’s important to remember politically about this is if you’re a state and you don’t set up an exchange, that means your citizens don’t get their tax credits.”

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Dan Kuechenmeister 2 years, 5 months ago

Dan S. says the deficit is being reduced. That of course is false. The CBO fiscal year has ended. Dan S. did you know it was Oct. 1 to Sept. 30. So the totals are on the board. Here is a pretty picture of the US surplus/deficit as a percent of GDP. http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/graph/?g=QFO Please note that it is not a surplus, which is what it would need to be for you to be correct that the deficit as a % of GDP was being reduced. If you want to state that the deficit as a % of GDP did not grow as much in fiscal year 2014 as the last four years you would be correct. But you are absolutely incorrect when you mocked Jerry by saying "Maybe you can do the deficit reduction calculation in your spare time. I'm a little busy. I was responding to the accusation that the deficit wasn't being reduced."

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john bailey 2 years, 5 months ago

hey Dan K. , yep , that's the guy .......lack of transparency and stupid Americans? really ??? now since he won't answer my questions , what do you know about this solar power company looking for a Fed. grant to pay off their Fed. loan ? Ivanpah is the name and can you tell me what state they are from ?.....kinda looks like I'm on to something with my posts being deleted after hours of being up, you'd think they would disappear all at once....hum....so much for a level playing field.....

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