Oil well on Wolf Mountain shifts to fracking

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Shell permit tabled indefinitely

The Routt County Commissioners voted unanimously Tuesday to table indefinitely a permit application by Shell Oil to drill the Dawson Creek well south of Yampa Valley Regional Airport.

It was the second time since Sept. 13 that the Shell application has been tabled for a lack of information. On Tuesday, county oil and gas planner Chris Brookshire confirmed Shell’s analysis of truck traffic on county roads, which was submitted Monday evening, was not in time to allow county officials and their consultant to analyze it.

Shell spokeswoman Carolyn D. Tucker told the Steamboat Today that her company took responsibility for the delay.

“We apologize for the delay in the traffic information,” Tucker said. “It was definitely our fault. The study is complex, and we wanted to do it right.”

Tucker added that two wells Shell is drilling in Moffat County represent the first time in “many, many years” her company has drilled specifically for oil (and not for natural gas) in Colorado and her colleagues are learning the public process.

Tucker was emphatic that the Dawson Creek well will not involve fracking.

Past Event

Routt County Planning Commission meeting

  • Thursday, November 17, 2011, 6 p.m.
  • Centennial Hall, 124 10th St., Steamboat Springs
  • Not available / Free

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Past Event

Routt County Board of Commissioners meeting

  • Tuesday, December 6, 2011, 3 p.m.
  • Routt County Courthouse, 522 Lincoln Ave., Steamboat Springs
  • All ages / Free

More

— The Routt County Board of Commissioners reacted with surprise this week at the news that the Quicksilver oil-drilling pad on Wolf Mountain east of Hayden is being changed to drilling equipment that will employ the hydraulic fracturing techniques commonly referred to as fracking.

“I’m alarmed,” Commissioner Diane Mitsch Bush said during a discussion with planning staff Monday. “I didn’t realize. Mea culpa for not knowing they could change it to fracking.”

Routt County Planning Director Chad Phillips said Tuesday that he is in the process of confirming with the Colorado Oil and Gas Conservation Commission whether the county has jurisdiction over down-hole techniques like fracking.

Mitsch Bush said Monday that regardless of whether the county has the direct ability to prevent the use of hydraulic fracturing, the county should be able to regulate it through the use of road regulations that could address the impacts of hauling chemicals and large amounts of water used in the process.

The county originally issued the permit to drill the Pirtlaw No. 1 H-3 well to Sunterra, in early February.

County Planner Chris Brookshire was notified in May that Sunterra had sold its interest in the exploratory well to Quicksilver Resources, of Fort Worth, Texas, and that the new owner followed procedures that included bonding a little more than $41,000 for future site cleanup and acknowledged in writing that the company would live by the conditions imposed by the county on the original special-use permit.

Olson Associates, a Grand Junction-based consulting firm working on the project for Quicksilver, filed a formal notification June 15 with the Oil and Gas Conservation Commission that it intended to change from the original direction drilling process to a vertical well, and that document is in the county’s file on the project.

However, Brookshire told the commissioners Monday that she had not received any formal notification of the change to the fracking technique. She learned about the change while visiting the site earlier this month and observed that new drilling equipment was being trucked onto the well pad site.

The realization that the change to fracking could be made without notification led County Manager Tom Sullivan to question how much control Routt has over the process.

“Nobody at the state or federal level is looking out for the local interest,” Sullivan said. “How do we protect the local interest?”

The Pirtlaw well is named after a company directed by Bob Waltrip, who owns the surface land rights to the well site within his sprawling Wolf Mountain Ranch. The well site also lies within the boundaries of a 1,757-acre conservation easement held by The Nature Conservancy on Wolf Mountain Ranch.

The three-acre well pad occupies a sagebrush-covered hillside overlooking Morgan Bottom along Routt County Road 70 north of U.S. Highway 40. It is within six-tenths of a mile from a mating lek used by struggling populations of Columbian sharp-tailed grouse.

Sunterra and now Quicksilver have agreed to abide by recommendations from the Colorado Department of Parks and Wildlife that drilling activities not take place between March 15 and July 30, when the grouse are mating actively and rearing chicks on the lek.

To reach Tom Ross, call 970-871-4205 or email tross@SteamboatToday.com

Comments

sedgemo 2 years, 9 months ago

Did the notification from June 15 actually happen? If so, was it also supposed to be reported to anyone in Routt County or not? If not, what the frack??? Do the terms of the original special use permit cover any of the byproducts of this (unpermitted) production technique? When would we have discovered the procedural change if Ms. Brookshire hadn't happened to arrive the day the equipment was being changed?

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trump_suit 2 years, 9 months ago

This is unacceptable and represents one of the reasons that regulation is necessary. Had the original company requested a fracking well, would it have been approved? How can that change be made without approval.

This kind of thing makes sun's opinions about the industry look more like predictions.

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mmjPatient22 2 years, 9 months ago

GET THE FRACK OUTTA HERE!!!

...can that be part of this whole "occupy everything" thing we've got now too?

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canyonwind 2 years, 9 months ago

Seems like there are more important things than how a energy company is going to get their Natural Gas out of the ground. Im glad to hear that they will be fracking because that method often means Nat'l Gas which will not spill like oil can. The most important thing is that these outfits do their job without making a mess that's not asking alot of them for the money they will make and has the issue of local hire been addressed??? Are these outfits putting Routt county residents to work??? That is a question that Diane Mitsch Bush needs to ask. I hate driving by these big road projects and not see any locals. There are alot of locals out there that could use a high paying energy job. As far as the other issues we all must vote to keep the pot shops open and no to prop 103 they say its for the schools but the truth is its on the ballot to replace the lost tax dollars from closing the pot shops across the state The haters put it on the ballot. Most of the time higher taxes are a very bad idea, but with 2B the Corporate thugs that run the airlines have threatend to not land here anymore unless we pay them what used to be called" protection money" so if you are in the service industry a yes vote may be what saves your job. And down the road we must push for legalization and that can start by replacing Obama with Ron Paul. He is for legalization and right on many other issues. He will likley pull all the troops out of the middle east and that may put more pressure on domestic energy production since the current policy of blood for oil has not worked out so well. But what ever method these guys use they need to do it the right way because they can't make a profit if they spill there product. Hopefully blood will no longer spill for oil and our furture employers won't spill their product so everyone will make lots of money and not trash this place we all call home.

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housepoor 2 years, 9 months ago

So how much $$ and tax breaks did Bob Waltrip get for the conservation easement on his sprawling Wolf Mountain Ranch??? The well site also lies within the boundaries of a 1,757-acre conservation easement held by The Nature Conservancy on Wolf Mountain Ranch. That is the real BS here!!!!! Welfare for the Wealthy!!!!

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canyonwind 2 years, 9 months ago

The tax break for conservation easements is so some guy does not turn his land into urban sprawl and thats a good idea if you don't want this place to turn into Denver. A couple well heads or a new barn to hide the well heads is alot better to look at than a bunch of low cost housing with juck cars parked out front. So as long as it is still mostly open land and or still used as a ranch its a small price to pay.

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Alex_Mason 2 years, 9 months ago

Anyone who believed this wouldn't have happened is a fool. The Water must be protected in The Yampa Valley!

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housepoor 2 years, 9 months ago

Have you seen where this property is???? Urban Sprawl, please........

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Zed 2 years, 9 months ago

"a bunch of low cost housing with juck cars parked out front"

Umm, If anything it would become another gated Marabou community, not low cost housing. It would be great to know what kind of dollars property owners are getting for wells like these? Drill baby drill, so I can get rich!

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Kerrie Cooper 2 years, 9 months ago

You can't be serious canyonwind! Fracking has left a horrible legacy all across America destroying underground water supplies, air pollution and physical illness, not to mention earthquakes where there weren't any prior from hitting seismic lines. Have you not seen the flammable water coming out of facets in Ft. Lupton or numerous other locations all caused from fracking. How about the little towns with such air pollution problems caused from fracking the kids can't play outside because the chemicals give them noise bleeds and headaches (this happened in Wyoming). The list goes on and on and on....What about the fact, the chemicals (some highly carcinogenic), seap into the water table and of course make it into the nearby rivers and streams (into the fish we in the Yampa like to catch) that eventually feeds millions in the west for drinking? How can man be so greedy and sooo stupid as to literally defecate on the very resource that gives us life, over and over? The only entity that is creating extinction for man, is man itself. Pure and simple (Not one person can say GOD did this to us.) ps I wonder if there has ever been a single other species that literally will have been responsible for killing itself off all over the planet, as we are doing now?

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Alex_Mason 2 years, 9 months ago

I would rather have Casinos and Hotels with Resaurants and shops than The Oil and Gas Buisness. Makes you wonder who actually votes around here. Is The Hayden population really this nieve? There are better alturnatives around here you know. There is a regoinal Airport in our back yards.... Just sayin.

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Colette Erickson 2 years, 9 months ago

Waltrip gets $$$ for the conservation easement, and for his interest in the fracking ops. The rich just get richer, and the rest of us get ?....................

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housepoor 2 years, 9 months ago

do they pay property taxes on the pad itself? It is a commercial improvent located on the property.

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Marcus 2 years, 9 months ago

Wow,

I am thoroughly amazed at how ignorant you people really are. Obviously you idiots know how to use the internet and can read to some degree. How about this, you go read the Colorado Oil and Gas Conservation Commission (COGCC) rules and regulations and then comment on the article. Yes, read the 2,000 page document that covers the rules and regulations that oil and gas operators have to abide by. Fracing does not contaminate the groundwater, not unless your water well is 8,000 ft deep. Oh yeah I forgot, any water at a depth greater than 2,500 feet would probably kill you as fast as drinking rat poison. Hotels and Casinos are around a lot longer than one of these well pads. Well pads can and are reclaimed and people like you never even know they are there. There is probably 10,000 wells drilled in Rout, Moffat, and Jackson counties, most of which you never even noticed. Why? Because they have been reclaimed as per the COGCC rules and regulations. Also, since you know how to use the internet. Now that you have read all the COGCC rules and regulations how about you do something us intelligent people call research and find out how deep the formation is that Quicksilver will be fracing. Finally, where do you think they got the gravel for the pad and access road. They probably shipped it in from China, the gravel in China is a lot better than the gravel in Routt County. Oh yeah, you just comment and do not research. The gravel in Routt county is three times more expensive than Denver but it is local and the trucking cost is low. SO Bingo! Yep, the gravel was bought locally, supporting the local economy. The word for today’s lesson is RESEARCH! Try doing some before you open your over opinionated mouth next time.

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housepoor 2 years, 9 months ago

I didn't say anything about the virtues of fracking. I was just pointing out the stupidity of using public funds to purchase a conservation easement on a parcel that has little or no developement pressure and then letting them drill for oil on that very same easement.

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canyonwind 2 years, 9 months ago

Hey just what is wrong with giving someone a tax credit to keep the land open, that is the idea behind the conservation easement and we are talking 1 well head that takes up maybe 2 acres. Alex Mason Mini Reno could eat up all the open land. And did't they band the use of those chemicals that caused all these problems with the water. They now use sand and water under about 2000 psi to bust up the layer that contains the gas and if im wrong about that then no they should not do anything that will mess up the water. And since this is also a private property issue you can't tell someone not to drill but you can ban the use of those chemicals. And Zed you are right it would turn into another Maribou this county would never allow any HUD housing on a large scale.

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Colette Erickson 2 years, 9 months ago

This location is set high on a hillside overlooking the Carpenter Ranch, Hayden , and that whole valley tothe west. What WAS a beautiful view up that hillside has been destroyed. Hard to say what else will be destroyed, in the long run.

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sledneck 2 years, 9 months ago

So why don't we stop fracking here in Routt County altogether. Let's trade all Routt Fracking for 10% of ANWaR...? Hmmm??? This subject leads to the same question as the school-funding issue. What are you willing to trade for more school funding? What are you willing to trade for eliminating fracking in Routt??? For the greenies, just like for the parents, I can tell everybody the answer... Not a Damn thing! They want it ALL shut down. And the part that paints these folks for the elitists they are is that they not only want no energy production; they also intend to keep their gas-burning car, their light switches, their ski lifts, etc. Won't pry those things out of their hands in a million years.

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the_Lizard 2 years, 9 months ago

Marcus, This is what I've been saying, but they have their local oracle, Daryl Hannah and Gasland, and yanno analytical thought is not needed for hyperbole/hysteria.

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Jeff_Kibler 2 years, 9 months ago

I support oil and gas development. (I support MMJ, too, but you already knew that.)

Regardless, isn't there an existing county ordinance against ridge-top development? Are drilling rigs and/or wellsites exempt from this? Driving around the county, from what I've seen, there must be an exclusion.

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Kerrie Cooper 2 years, 9 months ago

I've done hours of studying on fracking, and for you Marcos to say it doesn't contaminate the deep water supplies is beyond insulting. I'd love to hear from some of the ranchers whose crops and livestock have become totally sickened by this practice or the people (even down in the Rifle area) that can't drink their water now because it is so polluted from the nearby wells. They'd probably spit in your face. As for your rules and regulations, ohhhh really, would you like me to begin listing the chemicals they use, some of which have been outlawed by the EPA, yet have exemptions thanks to Haliburton & Dick Cheney? Marcos, the world is finally beginning to wake up to see the oil & gas industry has zero connection to the earth and not one ounce of a conscience. They will say & do ANYTHING to satisfy their insatiable greedy appetites despite the facts or outcome in front of their faces. Hopefully you too, will pull your head out of the sand and wake up to the truth & consequences of these actions

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jk 2 years, 9 months ago

Just a little curious as to who signs Marcus' paychecks?

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1999 2 years, 9 months ago

good one JK>

marcus...you are truly delusional.

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the_Lizard 2 years, 9 months ago

It's not the quanity of reading, it's the quality For instance COGCC must report all complaints of water contamination to Colorado Water Quality Control in reports such as this. For example

http://cogcc.state.co.us/Announcements/2009WQCDReport.pdf

"Ground Water There were twenty (20) complaints alleging impacts to water wells or requesting baseline sampling in the northwestern portion of Colorado. Upon investigation, COGCC staff determined that no water wells had been impacted."

Here is a USGS site that is a water quality database. http://rmgsc.cr.usgs.gov/cwqdr/index.shtml

Some spills, accidents and the like certainly, but sites like sourcewatch have an agenda and, well apparently it's working.

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sledneck 2 years, 9 months ago

A "Delusion" is a false belief held with absolute conviction despite superior evidence.

The pot calling the kettle black:

Global Warming Kensian Economics Transparent administration

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Marcus 2 years, 9 months ago

Well lovestoread, my years of experience and research still far outweigh your hours of reading. 100% of the gas found in peoples water wells in the Piceance Basin (Rifle area) is biogenic. Which means it occurs naturally near the surface and is not thermogenic. A simple gas analysis will show that the gas composition is of shallow biogenic gas. The Wasatch Formation in the Piceance Basin contains abundant shallow biogenic gas and when people are stupid enough to drill water wells into the Wasatch and guess what. Yep, they get natural gas in their water well , curtsey of themselves. People have had methane in the water wells for the past 200 years and biogenic gas has been around for MILLIONS of years. It is the people like you who are waiting to blame someone for their bad water which they were fine to drink until they see a drilling rig. How about you give up everything in your everyday life that requires oil and gas to create: your car, you heat, your air conditioning, all you luxuries. That’s right MR/Mrs. Green. I did not think you would. Before an operator can frac a well the COGCC reviews the CBL (Cement Bond Log) for the well to make sure that the casing is cemented correctly and zonal isolation can occur which protects the shallow aquifers. Yes, blame Halliburton and Dick Cheney. That kind of liberal attitude is what is wrong with people today. I was raised in the area, and I know 80% of people have hard water (poor water quality), the other 20% are on a municipal water system.

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kathy foos 2 years, 9 months ago

Sorry Marcus,I read all the time about this issue on the internet and for years now,and its not the very deepness of the wells that ruin water,its the way they do it.The EPA has recently tried to help out up here with this by changing the rules for fracking that George W.threw on us before he left office.Now the company's need more equipment and its expensive to do.They are freaking out now.Please email the EPA supporting the new procedures!They are being petitioned to drop the new regulations.Even by our Colorado Gas Commission that is supposed to protect us.Scary.The new regulations don't take hold until Feb.Marcus ,don't be mad,surely you are at least somewhat concerned about they way the gas and oil are harvested in this Valley?. If those wells on the Flattop Wilderness(where my teen died) area pollute guess where that water goes? They are right next to Hunt Creek ,if a spill occurs it goes right by my place and then on Stagecoach Dam before it works its way to Steamboat and you all can float in your tubes in it before it goes out to Craig where they can really frack it up.. There are livestock,geese ,ducks and FISH(super good fish) at stake,let alone all the animals that take a drink out of that pure water,flowing out of the Wilderness area.These wilderness areas should not have gas and oil operations in my opinion. In Penn. the pollutions of surface waters are a reality and I'm amazed you haven't read of the pollutions Marcus since you read so much about all of this.Maybe you just read the oil company side? It seems the last resort for Rifle was to "Sue Baby Sue"These oil company's are filthy rich and they mean business,don't know what the word" no' means or have any decency when it comes to getting to what they want. Routt County needs to grow some "Big Boy Pants and stop them,keep it clean here,no matter what,we have to drink this water too! I know its weird,but in a Valley like ours,where the flow begins and its a wetland,conditions dictate that recovery of oil would be done in a super careful manor not to disturb this area for any reason (,its not like Kansas to get the oil out for sure), there are special circumstances here to declare oil a rare earth mineral in Routt County and demand the way its processed be "OUR WAY"the safe way for Routt County and the water that flows to other people from here.Oil is a rare earth mineral as Peak oil is over (per the industry)no automobile conversions are in place and we are in a pinch point with the gas consumption to get around.If we didn't need it so much for cars, it wouldn't be that much of a rare earth mineral,but due to the finite ending of its harvest in a hundred years,plastic's needing to be produced ,airlines fuel,etc.Leave the oil for manufacture and get on the roll to convert the cars or walk .Simple,we cant go on like this.

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trump_suit 2 years, 9 months ago

Marcus,

If you read the article you will discover that there was no submission of a CBL,there was no review of a CBL, and the only reason the gov't inspector found this issue was becuase they showed up onsite and noticed fracking equipment being installed.

how does this reconcile with your statement that these things must happen BEFORE fracking. Seems to me the operator started the process with abolutely zero approval.

Perhaps there are facts that this article does not discuss, but based on what was written here, your statements miss the mark badly.

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jacksprat 2 years, 9 months ago

I've studied this issue for MINUTES on the internet. That makes me an expert too. I found an interesting comment from the EPA on fracking, which, by the way, has been used for drilling since 1903. Here's what I found.

May 25, 2011. At a U.S. House Oversight Committee hearing yesterday, President Barack Obama’s EPA administrator, Lisa Jackson, admitted the environmental risk of hydraulic fracturing is practically nonexistent. “I’m not aware of any proven case where the fracking process itself has affected water, although there are investigations ongoing,” she said.

Should we be concerned with spills and accidents which can destroy the environment? Absolutely. Should we get hysterical about fracking? Why?

Marcus presented a clear and precise assessment of the situation based on factual information, not speculation and rumor. For that he gets attacked by all the liberal nut jobs who have their own agendas. After reading all the misinformation presented on this forum, does anybody need to wonder why there are ZERO drilling rigs operating in Routt County.

I'm alarmed too Nancy Mitch Bush. I'm alarmed that someone in your position, is so ignorant and uninformed, yet determined to shut this well down.

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Marcus 2 years, 9 months ago

Sun, look up SPCC and emergency response plans. All operators must have them. Trump_suit, the reason there is no CBL on the COGCC website is because the operator has filed for confidentiality status. The COGCC requires a CBL be run within 72 hours of cementing casing. ALL operators MUST run a CBL and get a completion sundry approved by the COGCC engineer before completions can begin. The problem is that the general public is ignorant to the drilling and completion process. People, such as myself, obtain MS and PHD's on the subject. People do not realize that oil and gas companies are NOT out to pollute everything, yes accidents happen and operators are held responsible for their actions. Take BP’s incident. Do we hear anything of it anymore. NO! Except from politician and liberals. BP cleaned up the spill and the media blew a majority of information out of p[roportion. There are specific bacteria that eat oil and natural gas. Oil, it is 100% natural, 100% organic but you can’t find it at whole foods.

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greenwash 2 years, 9 months ago

Hear , Hear ...Marcus , tell it like it is Man .

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trump_suit 2 years, 9 months ago

Sure Marcus they cleaned up the gulf (nudge nudge wink wink) unless you look for all the oil spread all over the deep bottom or in the grass marshes. Just like in Alaska where they cleaned up the entire area after the valdez spill. Except that if you move a few rocks even now there is oil on those beaches.

Tell us how absolutely none of those fracking chemicals can never ever (I mean seriously never) contaminate surface water. Except they won't tell us what is being used (trade secret) and there are unexplained contaminations around fracking sites nationwide.

That is surface methane they say, you can tell it is chemically different that what we are drilling for. Except that in Rifle and PA, they never had these problems until they started fracking for gas.

Hmmmm, coincidence....... Call me a skeptic and show me the money or in this case the fluids and chemicals being used so that when we find your fracking fluid 50 miles away in the river, we will know who is paying the bill.

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TorpedoOfTruth 2 years, 9 months ago

@trump_suit I'd like to remind you that the first modern oil well was drilled in Titusville, PA 1858. The well he drilled was 70ft deep. This would be it well within the water table. In most places oil and gas was discovered originally they were drilling for water and only stumbled upon hydrocarbons signifying that hydrocarbons have historically migrated into depth regions that water is traditionally found before massive oil and gas development occured. And this was all well before the first hydraulic fracture treatments were performed in the 60s. Fracing has been performed for the past 50+ years at less of an impact to our groundwater than ammonium nitrate and other toxic chemicals, that are used in the agriculture industry, that have run off into our rivers and lakes.

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Jeff_Kibler 2 years, 9 months ago

What about methyl tertiary butyl ether (MTBE)? That was the government mandated gasoline additive that polluted a helluva lot of groundwater. That is documented damage vs. fairytale fracking damage.

Trump, how is surface methane chemically different than any other methane? Did they throw in some carbon double-bonds and a touch more hydrogen? How about tossing in a hydroxyl group with your magic methane. That would explain your blindness due to methanol consumption.

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mavis 2 years, 9 months ago

How come you all didn't comment a long time ago when they were cutting coal production because gas was the "new" way to go???? Maybe if the community would pay attention to topics before they become in the "heat seat." Then maybe we could be proactive as a community instead of always "reactive."

Pay attention people... We have a fantastic coal mine here, providing locals jobs, CLEAN coal and an infrastructure ALREADY in place. Why not use it, maintain it and increase the efficiency of it??

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Colette Erickson 2 years, 9 months ago

Robert F. Kennedy Jr: The Fracking Industry's War on the New York Times -- and the Truth www.huffingtonpost.com Superb investigative journalism by the New York Times has brought the paper under attack by the natural gas industry, whose spinning and obfuscation is impeding leaders striving to institute sensible regulations.

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JustinH 2 years, 9 months ago

Although there are a plethora of insanely unbelievable responses in this thread, I think Marcus takes the cake for most guilty because he sounds like he knows what he is talking about, and therefor has the potential to make the uninformed actually believe his industry-supporting rhetoric. Look, the facts are clear: Hydraulic fracturing is the most dangerous extraction method available, period. Each "Frack" (of which there are many done per well) injects millions of gallons of water and 20,000 - 80,000 gallons of a mix of HUNDRES OF TOXIC CHEMICALS many of which are "proprietary" mystery chemicals, under pressure into the fissure to create cracks in the formation and force the oil and gas up to where it can be extracted. There is no way to guarantee that the water tabel will not be contaminated, in fact the chances are quite high that it will be. Furthermore, once the millions of gallons of toxic soup are injected underground, there is no way to accurately predict where they will end up. Clean up?! Are you kidding me?! How do you remove millions of gallons of toxins flowing around underground? It's a sick joke. What baffles me is what people, other than Marcus who clearly is getting a paycheck from an oil or gas company, are so willing to jump to the defense of these companies who are profiting off of our collective public land and health. Does anyone here want to drink flammable drinking water?! Does anyone even want to take the risk that that could be our future? How can you justify it when clean alternatives are available? You can't. And by the way, there reason your oil and gas are "Cheap" is because of misplaced government subsidies. Look at this graphic that shows what America could be doing with it's billions in oil and gas subsidies. http://www.good.is/post/what-if-solar-were-subsidized-like-oil We are falling behind America! CHINA is invesitng more in renewables than any other country right now. Do you honestly think that hydrocarbons are the future? It's not a future that I will strive for or defend. We are facing a world crisis, and just because you are too ignorant or stubborn to admit that climate change is a reality does not mean that it will not affect you. Maybe you should move to Texas where you can smoke money-filled cigars with the Sunterra executives, and enjoy the unprecedented droughts and wildfires the state is facing. This well is an abomination and if anyone here cares about their quality of life, you will do everything in your power to stop this well and change the industry-pandering laws that allow something like this to take place and violate the public trust.

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JustinH 2 years, 9 months ago

In advance of your rebuttal that climate change is a liberal myth to break the poor oil companies, read this article released today: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/21/world-resources-report-climate-change_n_1021693.html If you believe that the World Resources Institute, the United Nations Development Programme (UNDP), the United Nations Environment Programme (UNEP), the World Bank, the IPCC, NOAA, NASA and 99% of worldwide scientists are wrong, or are involved in a massive worldwide conspiracy to make you stop driving your F-350, then maybe you should be institutionalized for paranoid schizophrenia. It's called science. The results are based on empirical evidence. Oh, by the way, that 1% of scientists who will tell you that they "aren't sure" if climate change is happening, look a little closer at their funding, and chances are it comes from Exxon Mobil or the Koch brothers. End of rant.

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the_Lizard 2 years, 9 months ago

JustinH, do you hate people? The reason I ask is I wonder how all of the energy haters propose we, in this country grow enough food, move that food, store it, refrigerate it if necessary and then sell it using "clean alternatives". Which clean alternative do you propose would take the place of petroleum products? Solar, inefficient expensive solar? (China, that progressive nation, is leading the way on "clean alternatives..... http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/09/18/us-china-solar-plant-protest-idUSTRE78H0FL20110918)

What are you proposing people wear,where do they live and heat/cool their homes, how the heck will they ski without petroleum products. What happens to all the tourists, without gas/oil. Tell us JustinH, how does it all logically work with solar and wind. (maybe you have another "clean alternative" in mind)

If you had actually read, with an open mind the scientists' comments you would have gleaned the fact that gas can be naturally occuring depending on the geology of a given area. Gasland, the largly debunked hitpiece on fracking breathlessly showed the "flammable drinking water" in Weld county. The facts; http://search.datapages.com/data/doi/10.1306/03B5B46B-16D1-11D7-8645000102C1865D

As far as global warming, how funny that your alphabet soup of redistribution cheerleaders keep pounding us with the global warming theory. Perhaps the earth is warming, but AGW has not been proven and a bunch of activist, far left organizations have one agenda....MONEY.... One last thought, ask yourself this question, and answer it with all honesty. Are you a hypocrite?

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JustinH 2 years, 9 months ago

Yes. I hate people. That's why I'm concerned that this development will cause widespread health impacts on the populace. If I hated people, I would probably go around telling people that fracking is the newest greatest way to produce energy, while I myself buy a reverse osmosis water filter, and watch as the townfolk succumb to various cancers and neurological disorders.

In response to your first link: Let's distinguish what I am upset about in the first place. I am not illogically against hydrocarbon fuel sources. I am upset that companies feel they have the right to sacrifice human health and environmental health for profits, running over environmental laws put in place to keep us safe. In the case of fracking, I'm referring to what is commonly called the "Halliburton loophole" which allows the deadly chemicals used in fracking to be exempted form the Clean Water Act. In the case of the article you linked to, it is deplorable that the solar company was dumping toxic waste, and of course the residents should be angry about this. Trust me, I would be one of those protestors. I do not place solar on a pedestal, exempt from environmental laws and accountability.

In response to your second link: what does that have to do with anything? I see that there can be naturally occurring gas in some gologica formations. Great. That doesn;t say anything about fracking not contaminating groundwater. Maybe ask the residents of Rifle how the fracking operation went there. Also, who debunked gasland? Show me a link debunking the residents' claims to cancer, water contamination, and environmental damage, then we'll talk.

And now we get to global warming. It's staggaring how much someone's need to not have to change their daily life can blind them to overwhelming amounts of evidence. Here's a nice article featuring a one-time climate denier who did some research for himself and changed his point of view: http://www.climatecentral.org/blogs/global-warming-still-not-a-hoax/ Here is a link that shows how scientists know without a doubt that the CO2 in our atmosphere is anthropogenic and not naturally occurring:http://thinkprogress.org/romm/2011/10/06/338286/charts-evidence-human-fingerprint-on-recent-climate-change/?utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitterfeed The thing is, why would you take the risk? The changes being proposed by the international community are common sense changes that will improve the efficiency, quality of life, and health of our communities and the environment. Why are you so entrenched in this fossil fuel economy? I understand that we cannot perform an istant switch. But it is clear that we must move in the direction of relying on renewables rather than finite resources if the growing population (7B by the end of Oct) is to sustain itself.

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JustinH 2 years, 9 months ago

Am I a hypocrite? Kind of complex question. To the extent that I am forced to rely on the fossil fuel economy that the society in which I live depends upon, and to the extent that I yearn for a clean energy economy, yes, I suppose I am slightly hypocritical in that regard. To the extent that I work for change at the social and political level to move us forward to a clean energy economy, and do my best to have environmental laws enforced and public awareness of the issues enhanced, no, I am not a hypocrite. I ride my bike to work nearly every day though I own a car. I am extremely energy conscious. When I lived in Denver I paid extra for energy provided by wind power. When choices are available to me, I will choose the more eco-friendly options, even though they come at a greater cost to me, and I do not have a large disposable income. This is not me against you. This is common sense against entrenched interests. Please consider this when hating environmentalists who are striving to make this world a better place for you to live. Thank you keeping an open mind and reading all of my posted links.

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JustinH 2 years, 9 months ago

Yet another creative alternative to fossil fuels. Sounds good for somewhere like CO with 300 days of sun! http://www.youtube.com/DESERTECChannel

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sledneck 2 years, 9 months ago

Justin, Can I just point out a few of your errors?

First, you say that there are alternative energy sources available. This is false. Wind, solar and other forms of so-called "green" energy today might produce up to 5% of the nations energy needs. Thats a 95% shortfall. Alternative energy IS NOT available.

Second, you did not answer Lizards question... Apart from fossil energy, how would you propose we grow, transport, refridgerate, store the food necessary to keep people from starving? The answer, of course, is: we can not do it without fossil fuel.

Third, you are correct that there are no absolute guarantees on keeping water from being contaminated; but how does this differ from most other aspects of life? The long odds of possible water contamination do not exist in a vacuum. Like most of lifes decisions, they must be weighed AGAINST alternatives. In this case, the alternative is food and energy shortages. (this is a basic rule of economics) How would we have ever put a man on the moon if we had insisted on guarantees??

Fourth, I would advise you to re-think your criticism of oil subsidies as an argument for green energy since green energy recieves far greater subsidies and delivers far fewer kilowatts of electricity.

Fifth, since you raise China as a model, can I assume it would be OK with you if America followed their lead across the board? China has been bringing one (1) coal-fired electric generating plant on line about every 11 days. Should we do that here? China just completed the Three Gorges Dam, the largest hydro-electric dam the world has ever seen. It flooded millions upon millions of acres; caused tremendous societal, cultural and environmental upheavals including untold raparian damage for hundreds miles upstream and downstream; destroyed ancient geologic and cultural sites and displaced millions of people. Would it be OK if we did that here instead of just drilling 8" diameter holes in the ground???

Lastly, moving in the direction of greener energy is logical. But society has to stay together during the process. Rapid conversion to, and forceful removal of dependable, economic energy sources will impose tremendous burdens on society, especially those who can barely afford TODAYS electric bill. That is why markets move as they do... they move when the optimum number of individuals act, not when chicken-littles or governments shout "the sky is falling".

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the_Lizard 2 years, 9 months ago

Not much to add to Sledneck's comments, but yet I will...

Creative alternatives are fine, as the free market designs and implements them...without bankrupting the host country. I don't think I would hold up Spain as a model of economic prosperity or tout their burdensome "Green energy" mandates as a roaring success. The people in this video gripe about the high cost of electricty and how it effects their businesses. The cost of their electricity is "necessarily" high because, as ideologues of a green nature, they have put their version of a pure earth above the welfare of people. That's exact;y what's beginning to happen in this country, we are putting onnerous regulations on our energy industries, and people suffer. It's good you try not to be a hypocrite, but even without a large disposable income you can still afford the "green" alternative where as many people can't. So as good as it makes you feel do what you can, it's very egocentric, this is a huge country with may people that need a healthy affordable "real" ( and I don't mean the boutique green energies) energy economy for their livelehood, and to sustain quality of life. Couple more points, I gave you the one link as an orriginal document proving that one of the most egregious attacks against fracking, the flammable water issue, was BS.

Is Rifle supposed to be a cancer free zone or something, cuz when I looked at actual CO cancer statistics Garfield county didn't seem to have excessive cancer rates. http://statecancerprofiles.cancer.gov/cgi-bin/quickprofiles/profile.pl?08&001

Gasland the debunking http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/energy/coal-oil-gas/top-10-myths-about-natural-gas-drilling- http://www.nytimes.com/gwire/2011/02/24/24greenwire-groundtruthing-academy-award-nominee-gasland-33228.html?pagewanted=all Then the wall Street Journal had an article, I can't find it.

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