Bob McConnell: Online forum

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I want to address those in this community who use the Steamboat Pilot & Today online forum to intimidate others but don’t have the courage to identify themselves. I hope Brent Boyer understands that allowing this encourages hateful speech rather than reasonable discussion. Across the country, newspapers of integrity have banned anonymous comments. Allowing vile, hateful comments and veiled threats with no accountability is irresponsible journalism and makes people reluctant to stand up for what they believe.

I don’t understand cowards. I never have. Cowards hide in the shadows. I do understand fear. I understand the fear being experienced by Lisa Watts and Kelly Victory. They organized an ad hoc community group to address the negative impact of medical marijuana in Steamboat. They did it openly. Cowards responded by vandalizing Dr. Victory’s home the night before the meeting. Cowards are calling Lisa a “monster” who shouldn’t exist. Cowards are talking about where Lisa lives. Cowards are talking about drive-by shootings, mass graves and heads being cut off.

We don’t need to rail about the border, or Arizona. Threats of drug-related violence are being made by cowards right here in Routt County. The Pilot is allowing these threats to be made anonymously.

Steamboat, we have a problem. Today it’s medical marijuana. What’s next? We have a choice to make. We have ugliness being spewed against people who stand up to debate an issue. We have a newspaper that encourages hate through anonymity. And we have a few cowards who hide in the shadows. You, the cowards in Steamboat, crawl back in your holes. My name is Bob McConnell and I will talk to you openly about the way you choose to run your mouths and your businesses. Any time, any place. Wear your name tag.

Bob McConnell

Steamboat Springs

Comments

Clay Ogden 3 years, 6 months ago

Bob ... I agree with your perspective. For years I've complained about the cowards who spew their bile while lacking the courage to take ownership of their words. If folks are going to take the time post in a public forum they should also take responsibility for their words. All too often they take the cowards way out ... making the narcissistic attempts to associate with founding fathers and revolutionaries. These topics are not life and death ...or constitutional crises. It's local politics and policies ... value judgments affecting friends and neighbors.

It seems I have little in common philosophically with Ms. Watts or Dr. Victory on the topic at hand but I applaud their bravery ... their willingness to take a stand and open up a dialogue ... as well as everyone who is mature and brave enough to take ownership of their public expressions.

My opinion ... many interesting and valid issues are brought forward by the anonymous contributors but, to me, the value of their expressions is significantly diminished by the childish tone, condescending dialogue and cowardly anonymity.

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sledneck 3 years, 6 months ago

Or maybe if ole Bob knew our names he could make sure his contact over at the IRS does an "extra good" job on our tax returns.

Speech did not vandalize any house. Criminals did; and they should be prosecuted for VANDALISM, not for talking.

"many interesting and valid issues are brought forward by anonymous contributors..." Yes they are! So why not give some slack to the "childish and condescending" tone? "Sticks and stones" fellas.

Check out Thalgard, he did a great job (anonomously) ripping me last week. Did I respond by whining? No.

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mmjPatient22 3 years, 6 months ago

So, it magically becomes okay to condescend and insult the other side if you attach your name to your comments? We certainly know what Dr. Victory and Mrs. Watts truly think about cannabis users(unless, of coarse, they have AIDS or cancer) and they've never seemed to be all too shy about sharing their feelings about some of us other commentators, myself included. That has never seemed to be a pertinent piece of information in the past, when neither of those two ladies(or anyone else on their side of the debate, for that matter) could seem to materialize facts and/or data to back up their side of the debate. It seems more cowardly to me to abandon the debate in all of the comment boards on this site, which they both seem to have done. To me, and this is just me, it would be more respectable if they could bring supporting facts and data for their side of the debate.

And Sled is right; the idiot(s) that chose to vandalize Dr. Victory's house should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. There is no room for that childish crap in any community. Shame on them!

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Scott Ford 3 years, 6 months ago

I think many of us enjoy a respective and civil dialogue exchange. Specifically I enjoy those exchanges when I feel I am learning something new and/or gain a better appreciation of a point of view. I often enjoy the wit and humor some folks use. However, it is far too easy for the exchanges taking place in the Pilot's blog to disintegrate into something that is malicious and spiteful. What is the point of that?

From my perspective the blogs are essentially a virtual community coffee shop where the exchange is often fast and sometimes noisy. If one chooses to participate in them they need a thick hide and that is OK. The exchange crosses the line when the tone becomes visceral and vindictive. The management of the coffee shops I frequent would not allow this behavior to continue in their establishment. As the owner of the establishment, they have the right to ask the offending party or parties to tone it down or leave.

I would encourage the Pilot to rethink again its policy regarding anonymous postings. There is great value when people own their opinions. At a minimum, they often become more well-mannered and there is no harm in that.

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hereandthere 3 years, 6 months ago

Bravo once again Sled!

And I will note that chilish tone and condescending dialogue are not only originated by us "cowardly" posters. Please reference Lisa Watts first post on the mmj issue. As well, does "Bob" or "Clay" putting their names to these comments make their name calling any more acceptable then an anonymous poster? These comment boards are and should be more about an open discourse of ideas then it is about personalities. And as Sled has noted above, those who choose to act out irresponsibly should be handled thru the proper channels. Lumping all anonymous posters with those who act with immaturity is no more acceptable then when the same tactic is used to paint all mmj users as irresponsible ":stoners".

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1999 3 years, 6 months ago

liking anonymous posters to vandals is similar to liking homosexuals to pedofiles. I enjoy the passionate exchanges of people who clearly really care about an issue. sometimes people need to be called out on ridiculous ideas especially when it can affect the publics rights. the middle east would not be changing today if those people were afraid of a little uncomfortable discourse. "monster"...really ? is that so bad? Can't take being called a monster? good grief.

If ms victory and ms watts are upset by being called "monters" perhaps they are the ones who should keep their mouths shut.

My brother died for rights of all americans to fight for what they think is right.Sometimes it gets loud. Sometimes names are exchanged. Sometimes people yell. Sometimes it gets ugly.

If people are vocal and passionate about what they believe in..they might get some feedback....and they may not like it.

But I'd rather that than the alternative.

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Scott Wedel 3 years, 6 months ago

I note that Dr Victory's house was apparently vandalized days before it was mentioned in a blog that she didn't live in the city and her address was never posted. Sort of odd to blame bloggers for that.

Local conservatives have on any number of occasions pointed out that someone more liberal has not lived here long. There were quite a number of posts a while back mentioning how Steve Aigner didn't live here long enough to lead any sort of community organization. So I considered the posts about Dr Victory's and Lisa Watts not living in city limits to simply be yet more of "they are not local enough and thus are disqualified" argument. An argument which I have never liked and had actually posted a rebuttal a day before Bob's letter was published.

And BTW, where are the comments about "drive-by shootings, mass graves and heads being cut off" that Bob read? I don't remember them and cannot find them.

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JJ Southard 3 years, 6 months ago

Hey Bob, the owners of the businesses have made no threats to anyone and are NOT anonymous on these forums.

I stand in agreement with being open about who you are on here. I always have been. So has Kevin and Ryan of RMR. We don't hide.

I would appreciate a comment by you properly directing your frustration.

This is the first I have heard of an vandalism to anyone's home. If that did happen, that is ridiculous and hopefully the dumb people that did it are caught.

I will stand someone concerned about something....If it is true that Lisa Watts and Dr. Victory live outside of the City of Steamboat Springs (could care less the exact address)...but if they are NOT City residents, then why are they being allowed to address our City Council? Their "group" has no relevance in our City.

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JJ Southard 3 years, 6 months ago

Yet, as I do stand in agreement with being open with how you are on here, also goes hand in hand with the freedom to be anonymous...but not to hide behind the anonymity for the purpose of attack and degradation.

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heboprotagonist 3 years, 6 months ago

I really like Scott Ford's analogy to the coffee shop dynamic. And despite my opposition to many of Sledneck's political leanings, I agree that the backlash from some comments could lead to real world consequences. Words are powerful, but they can only make whomever listens think, they cannot actually do harm. For these reasons, we reserve the right and freedom to remain anonymous.

But, you're right, none of this does anything to curb the "hate" that is often spewed on these online forums. My suggestion is that the Pilot continues to allow for anonymous posts, but monitor them for unsavory comments- and reserve their right as keepers of the forum to just delete them. The other option would be to simply remove the comments section altogether.

Mr McConnell can put on his self-righteous cap and prance around all day, call us cowards, call us sub-human. That's his right, and though I don't know the man, my guess is he is older, wealthier, and more well-connected than many of us. He's established for himself the ability to speak his mind and suffer few consequences. While those of us who aren't wealthy enough to own property must consider the wrath of our landlord, while we work in the service industry maintaining those ski slopes and serving you your dinner.

Forgive us if we don't trust you, but we see how the "good ol boy network" works in this town. We may not have been here as long, but this is our home too. I don't condone the threats of violence or the actual vandalism that has reportedly taken place (Why isn't THAT story in the paper?), but I also think that these issues are too important to be left to those who are insulated against retaliation.

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Fred Duckels 3 years, 6 months ago

Many are often attacked on a personal level and usually from anonymous sources, Bloggers stooping to this tactic should be warned and dealt with if the habit pertsists. This is a forum for ideas, not a demolition derby.

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JJ Southard 3 years, 6 months ago

The only comments have you have contributed to this forum, Mr. Duckels, have been attacks on the mmj industry, especially RMR. Now you put this comment? WTF?

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JJ Southard 3 years, 6 months ago

I type faster than my thoughts process....hence creating typos.

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Jodi Dorris 3 years, 6 months ago

Well said, Bob. Be respectful, responsible, informed, dialogue is a good thing and we should not hide our identities. I feel for anyone receiving death threats or having their property vandalized. We all have different opinions, let's respect others who may have a different view than we do. Attacks on others views simply is not healthy, let the dialogue flow not the attacks.

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JJ Southard 3 years, 6 months ago

Fred, I don't partake in the behavior at hand, unless I am the target of the abuse. You on the other hand, hand been the perpetrator of the exact behavior. I am not throwing out ideas. I think the forum is another representation of Free Speech and if people want to remain anonymous, they have the freedom too. And, by the way, your idea already is in place if you read the "rule" that you all agree to, you will see that the Pilot DOES monitor these forums, and DOES delete messages when they have broken the rules. So what more "warning" do people need.... And the Pilot DOES "deal" with perpetual rule breakers. I know of a couple that have been excommunicated from the forum family by the Pilot administrators.

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kathy foos 3 years, 6 months ago

People get gross and crazy commenting on the news vine at times and maybe that is what some are doing in this paper...but even the national comment sections dont alow personal attacks on even another anonymous commenter,though they rarely inforce it.Someone said last week that to put your opinion out there invites the obuse,its inevitable.To some its not possible to be nameless ,it would effect their lives too much.It may effect my life but I havent noticed it but a few times.The gain that I get from speaking out is peace of mind that Im not just an apathetic slug.Just because there are those that are cowards there may be reasons,...(where is aich nowdays?),it must be hard to be quiet for personal reasons.I would rather be called a witch that deserves to melt in these damn flood waters than shut my mouth.Ha ha!I know I am not a witch,but its mean to call me that because its off topic.Yes ,its Ok with the pilot for people to call me that,and not get banned.I have never done a stupid thing like that,and it makes me embarrassed for the idiot (oops!) that said it. It is astounding to be attacked and I think unnecessary ,to make the point(which is what its all about)Knowledge that we want to share or learn.Why not a few more jokes?And do as I read seezuki do once,calm down first(if you can!)....I know its hard,at least for me.Its only words,they can turn out pretty or ugly,you control it.Not all points need to be made in anger,in fact no one will listen to you till you calm down anyway.Hey ...maybe we could use commenter anger management classes?I love reading all of your work,you are all caring passionate people.Be good to each other,we are all Gods children.

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trump_suit 3 years, 6 months ago

I find it odd that Bob O'Connell would decry anonymity when the founding fathers remained anonymous from the ruling Gov't for much of their early efforts to escape British rule. Indeed, the original "Tea Party" was a truly anonymous activity.

What is important here is civility and ideas. Although I am not perfect and have responded harshly at times, I have also called for civility on these forums many times

Anonymity can bring an exchange of ideas that would otherwise be supressed. Especially when the topic involves something currently illegal (Marajuana) or extreme political positions. We all know how to value the words that we read from each other and can form opinions about those ideas whether the poster is known or anonymous.

Likewise we all know how to ignore the harsh words of those who are at the extremes of society.

I would encourage the Pilot to allow anonymous posting and impose a daily limit on the number of postings for those that choose to remain anonymous.

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seeuski 3 years, 6 months ago

Just sitting back and enjoying how all of a sudden everyone is so civil. Hello trump. Now why would anybody want to assault the property of Kelly Victory and make threats to her and Lisa? Who would have the motivation for such a nasty act? After reading the many comments of late, I can see that there are some who posted some very personal info on her residence and location in these discussions, is this war? Is this what you do when you want to shut someone up? You find out where they live and scare them? I have been physically threatened for my beliefs on these forums and there is no way that an assault or fight is worth the rhetorical arguing that goes on here so I choose to remain anonymous for now. This Country is on the verge of some very ugly experiences and lives are on the line. I give Bob great respect for speaking out against the personal attacks that Lisa and Kelly have been receiving and am also saddened that here in Steamboat there are some aholes who think that their imagined rights give them the right to harm those that have another opinion. We are now truly a Country divided.

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jk 3 years, 6 months ago

I think this was the first snowball rolled down the hill. Amazing how her name is attached yet she has no concern for other peoples opinion. And the name calling what are we to do???

Lisa Watts: "And I am sick of the "woohoo" presence of marijuana in our community. Any person without a monetary profit and interest or a "high times" user would look at the situation here in this county and see true "medical" has been relegated to somewhere way down the list of importance. Have you seen one real defense here that stands on the "medical" necessity of this? Is there even one of our medical professionals in our own community that writes these scrips? Do you see the true medical community standing behind this in any fashion? Do you see tangible and serious concern for the moral responsibility medicine should elicit in the teenage mentality advertising campaigns?

We've got "stoners" protecting their source and committed to dragging the potatoes out to vote...tiki shacks super imposed at the base of our world class ski mountain in full page ads as a representation of our community... "high times" competitions, free ice cream give-aways, joints of the day and guys in pot leis and wife beater shirts winning prizes for the best "medicine" splashed all over our paper. Their prize winning blend: “It is a mellow high, sort of a couch potato, evening smoke,” he said. “You wouldn’t want to smoke it during the day if you want to function.”

For God's sake, only smoke it in the evening if functioning is an important thing to you.

With NO medicinal mention whatsoever, just who had the best blend that didn't make a total doorknob out of you. Worst of it all, they've even gone so far to tout their "primary care" facility.

This is really how we want our community represented?

Ever see Pfizer hold competitions for their best Lipitor or cancer drug? Having woohoo high times events? Doesn't the mere label of "high times" just sorta maybe detract from your "medical" sham?...

BTW Stoners........heeeeeeeellllllllllllllloooooooooooo.........in the words of the professionals......is there anybody out there? Did ya catch the May 18 article that Garfield COUNTY is all over this, the State is moving toward stronger regulation, and your woohoo days just might be numbered in this city and this county too. You might re-think the party boy in our face public presence. The grown ups have shown up."

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exduffer 3 years, 6 months ago

Anyone notice Muck's post on the jail report? I think it proves that these posts can bring out rational thought in anyone.

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jk 3 years, 6 months ago

1999,

Mr. McConnell states.... "We have ugliness being spewed against people who stand up to debate an issue. We have a newspaper that encourages hate through anonymity."

jodidorris...". We all have different opinions, let's respect others who may have a different view than we do. Attacks on others views simply is not healthy, let the dialogue flow not the attacks."

It seems to me that Ms. Watts started this snowball rolling down the hill with her lack of understanding and respect towards other peoples views, not to mention the name calling! Now according to Mr. McConnell we are to respect her because she has her name attached to the rhetoric she spews!?

I in no way condone the vandalism of anyones property, that is plain stupid, and I'm sure Lisa never expected the little snowball she cast to turn into what it has.

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Brian Kotowski 3 years, 6 months ago

It was almost exactly a year ago that Brent Boyer published and editorial tackling this issue http://www.steamboattoday.com/news/2010/may/13/brent-boyer-addressing-online-civility/#c77599 , wherein he suggested a requirement to include our real names with our contributions here could be the next step. I was among those who argued against the proposal. However, I find I've since done a complete 180. This forum has either plunged headlong into the latrine, or I've just become less patient in my middle age. Some samples of the enlightened commentary here (which are depressingly easy to find):

you really are a stupid whore

maybe that same bull moose can go a little natural selection on your fat ass, do us all a favor.

your day is coming punk

you are poor white trash and a really poor farmer.call me some time or are you too scared PUSSY.

Nazi racist PIG

Eat me punk ass

I had an exchange with a coworker yesterday, who was disappointed that Donald Trump had withdrawn his hat from the presidential ring. I expressed how pleased I was that he had crawled back into his hole. We managed to disagree with me calling her a whore, or she labeling me a punk.

While imposing a “real name” requirement wouldn't guarantee adult behavior, I'll wager the discourse here would improve dramatically nonetheless. Some of the spew masquerading as civil dialogue & intelligent rebuttal on this board is the reason I rarely weigh in any more.

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sledneck 3 years, 6 months ago

Hey, The "do a little natural selection on your fat ass" remark was directed at ME and I took NO offense whatsoever. To the contrary, I laughed my "fat ass" off when I read it. That person had a right to express his opinion and they did. No problem. I have no bruises or lacerations because of it.

You guys need to grow some thicker skin. There seems to be a lot of people with a "don't dare offend me" chip on their shoulder these days. I actually think some people believe they have a "right" Not to be offended. WRONG!

The Offended States of America???

My goodness; it's just words people. Words.

Hate is a thought. "Hate Speech" is a veiled term used to bully people into NOT speaking their minds or saying something that someone else does not want to hear. The concept is dangerous. It's use is widespread in countries whos people know NO freedoms. Think about that.There would be no need of a First Ammendment if we all went around just uttering pleasantries and popular speech all day.

When you go to the doctor he asks "whats wrong?" He wants to hear the NEGATIVE so he can help you. Likewise, we would be foolish to expect him to come back and say "your heart is good, liver is good, blood pressure is great, have a nice day" if he had also found cancer. You would want him to tell you the bad news in the clearest details, no matter how ugly, wouldn't you???

Removing the anonimity will tend to shut the doctor up. We will leave FEELING better but...

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Scott Wedel 3 years, 6 months ago

Anyone find the comments about "drive-by shootings, mass graves and heads being cut off" that Bob cited in his letter?

I think the only reference to that was regarding the violence of drug cartels and whether opponents of mmj preferred that to legal mmj.

And yet the paper prints a letter from Bob that contains an outrageous claim that anonymous bloggers made those comments directed at Dr Victory and Lisa Watts.

And the same letter contains the completely unfounded claim that anonymous bloggers are somehow responsible for vandalism at Dr Victory's house that occurred days before anyone online even mentioned she lived out of town and never did mention her address.

Looks to me what is wrong is the crazy letter misstating essential facts PRINTED by the paper and not the online community.

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kevin fisher 3 years, 6 months ago

Ignore the vitriol, not the First Amendment.

Kevin Fisher

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Brian Kotowski 3 years, 6 months ago

sledneck:

Your medical analogy isn't apples & oranges. It's apples & carburetors.

I think you'll agree that the f-word, the n-word, the c-word, George Carlin's famous list, etc, are also "just words". Injunctions against using them hardly equates to "bully(ing) people into NOT speaking their minds". Anyone unable to discuss current events without spewing vitriol like "you really are a stupid whore" has little in his mind worth speaking about.

I'm not lobbying for Oxford-style debate. Just a marginally higher standard, instead of the lowest common denominator.

heboprotagonist suggests their are two options here: delete the infantile remarks, or delete the comments section altogether. There is a third alternative: revoke the posting privileges of those who can't behave like grownups.

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Scott Wedel 3 years, 6 months ago

Well, humor can bring relief, but that was lame. First, it has nothing to do with this topic. Second, it wasn't very funny.

Making fun of how issues here locally are often reduced to how it affects marketing is a good premise, but you need to make those links. We have too many real people on too many issues from mmj to cycling making actual statements on marketing and image for a satiric article to fail to use that material. Article had too many fake people making fake statements. A mural premise that fails to take a swipe at the real idea of putting murals on downtown SB buildings? Not every attempt at humor has to be funny, but I suggest that humorists at least need to be taking shots at their targets.

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sledneck 3 years, 6 months ago

hebo made a good point about wanting to speak his mind without the risk of retalliation.

If the fire is too hot stay out of the kitchen. How's that analogy?

Unpopular speech folks; thats the kind that needs protection.

If you people can't take a little verbal razzing how you gonna survive when life throws something actually difficult your way? Bunch of cupcakes!

uh oh I said the "c" word. I'm goin straight to hell for that one!

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Brian Kotowski 3 years, 6 months ago

sledneck:

If you believe a prohibition against behaving like a schooyard punk = “bully(ing) people into NOT speaking their minds”, then perhaps you're the one in need of thicker skin.

Incidentally, I found The Pirate satire, while off-topic, to be pretty amusing.

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weststmbtres 3 years, 6 months ago

I've said this in the past and I still fully stand behind my previous comments on the same issue 100%.

Some of us are employed in businesses where our personal opinions could be detrimental to our co-workers. I am personally employed in a business that relies partially on the real estate market. For instance my opinions on Steamboat 700 were not in line with our customers base. I'm sure my opinions on the subject would have alienated many of our customers.

That would be fine with me so long as I was the only one affected by my opinions. At this point in my life and my career, I don't have that liberty. If my opinions on any particular subject cause our customers who don't agree with me to take their business to our competition then my co-workers suffer financially from the loss of business.

I think the pilot needs to keep the anonymous posting. There are too many people in this small town whose opinions would not be stated if they had to declare who they were before posting. Their opinions need to be shared and taken into consideration just like any other.

I am in agreement with Bob regarding the personal attacks. I do think the anonymous posting allows people to hide behind a veil of secrecy and fire off comments without regard. I'm fairly center of the aisle and haven't been too interested the the MMJ discussion either way so I missed the vigilante language Bob repeated in his letter but I have seen many other personal attacks, just not quite to the extent of the vigilante language Bob mentions above.

For the record, I'm 100% for MMJ for people who use it as a medical remedy. I'm 100% against the people who've found loopholes to use it for recreational purposes. I firmly believe giving the product names like "Kandy Kush" does nothing to legitimize the MMJ business. If Pfizer, Bayer or any of the drug company put the word "Kandy" in the name of their latest pharmaceutical they would never be taken seriously. It would be banned from sale for fear that the word "Kandy" markets the product toward children. If the dispensaries want to be taken seriously they need to try to live by some similar rules of the road.

To finish up I believe the Pilot could be more vigilant about removing comments attacking other people instead of addressing the issues being discussed. I think the Pilot could have a system of discipline where they could place a hold on the individuals whose comments are repeatedly flagged for removal. Too many flags will get you a 30, 60, or 90 day "time out" for your 1st, 2nd and 3rd violation respectively. If there was fear of recourse for inflammatory statements posted on the site I believe people would think twice before firing off such comments and they would stick to arguing the merits of the issue being discussed.

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weststmbtres 3 years, 6 months ago

I just read through the comments again and picked up one from Scott about the vigilante language actually being posted. I wasn't reading the MMJ discussions every 10 minutes so I thought I must have just missed those comments when the posts were removed.

Now that I've thought about it a bit more I too would like to know if there really were comments posted as Bob states;

"Cowards are talking about where Lisa lives. Cowards are talking about drive-by shootings, mass graves and heads being cut off."

If so, I'd like to know when criminal charges are being filed against the individuals who made these comments.

This language could be construed as nothing short of death threats. Such comments regardless of anonymous posting would almost certainly lead to criminal charges. The Pilot has our emails and required a phone number and phone call for verification so they could track us down.

With recent arrests around the country for so-called "facebook death threats" Many of which really were simply a joke gone wrong, I'd be surprised if someone really made these comments and if they did I'd be surprised that their contact info has not been turned over to the police.

Interesting to say the least.

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Brian Kotowski 3 years, 6 months ago

weststmbtres:

Your comment posted at 3:14 is possibly the most thoughtful contribution yet made to this thread. As recently as a year ago, I agreed with you and was making pretty much the same argument: http://www.steamboattoday.com/news/2010/may/13/brent-boyer-addressing-online-civility/#c77442

However, I believe the Steamboat Today has allowed the “vigilante language” and the “aonymous posting allow(ing) people to hide behind a veil of secrecy and fire off comments without regard” to fester and metastasize, while contributing nothing beyond puerile malice to the discussions in question.

In my first post to this thread, I copied & pasted a number of malignant contributions to this board. All but one was selected completely at random. The exception was authored by a poster whom I regard to be especially egregious - & it was the most difficult to track down. Not because of its rarity; but because so much of his bile had already been deleted. Nonetheless, it wasn't terribly challenging to locate a bottomless supply of his spew, despite much of it having been nuked. Deletion of selected posts, as you suggest, won't get the job done. Cockroaches may flee the light, but they'll always return when you're looking the other way. The only meaningful penalty here is a membership revocation. If the Steamboat Today can deploy that tactic to illustrate that civility is not optional, it seems to me that anonymity can be easily preserved.

I strongly and respectfully disagree with you. You'll note that I refuse to use this discord as an occasion to call you a “stupid whore.”

I trust those who disagree with me can appreciate the distinction.

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weststmbtres 3 years, 6 months ago

It's official then. We'll agree to disagree and I won't call you a "punk ass" either. :o)

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sledneck 3 years, 6 months ago

I believe some people need to get thicker skin, Sep. Yes indeed I do! I acknowledge that I have said things on here (as in real life) that I shouldnt have. So has everyone else. I regret doing so but, as a fallen creature it will probably happen again. I too was frankly surprised by the degree to which the pot discussion had declined the last time I looked at it. As advocates of whatever our cause we should always remember that, at some point our zeal can HURT our cause.

Here are 2 ancillary observations: 1. The degree to which the pot discussion degenerated and the sheer number of comments the subject generates EVERY SINGLE TIME IT'S MENTIONED should serve to inform City Council, the Newspaper, the people wanting to put an end to medical pot and the police. To say people feel strongly about it is an understatement. Helen Keller can see that people here like to smoke weed and they are not gonna stop. Putting it underground will help the black market. I rarely smoke weed anymore so, frankly, I don't give a ****.

What I do care about a great deal is: 2. What some of this zealous indignation also illustrates is that people from all walks of life have simply had it with the gubbamint telling them what to smoke, eat, drink, grow, brew, sell, buy, carry, etc, etc ad infinitum. Especially when they percieve (rightly I might add) that they are doing it in their own home with their own money and their own body VOLUNTARILY. There is an end to peoples patience with the busybody state. I think this is a smaller but growing part of the pot friction.

I would join with others in saying we all need to be civil and I intend to redouble my own efforts to do so. However, as others have demonstrated, anonimity is useful and should remain.

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Brian Kotowski 3 years, 6 months ago

sledneck:

As a libertarian-leaning conservative, I suspect that you & I share more common ground than not, in the grand scheme of things.

More specifically:

I'll take your word re: the mj discussions. You may (or may not) have noticed that I don't participate in them. Quite honestly, they bore the hell out of me. I tried mj once in my life (as a teenager), and it did nothing. I mean...nothing. I'm told by more experienced users that that's not an uncommon experience among first-timers; and that had I toked a 2nd time, I'd have been well and truly baked. I didn't repeat the experiment, so I'll never know, and don't really have a dog in that fight. While I personally believe mj should be legal, the reality is that it's not. Whining about the penalties associated with possession of a controlled substance is about as useful as me moaning about getting busted for driving with an open bottle of Jack in my lap. If you don't want to get busted for breaking the law, don't break the law. If you disagree with the law, get off your duff and work to change it. Anonymous online whining doesn't count.

Which is fairly irrelevant to the topic of this thread. Unless you believe my disagreements with you would be more compelling if I called you a “stupid whore”, or a “punk ass”, or a "Nazi racist PIG”, or a “scared PUSSY”, or whatever one's favored pejorative may be.

You've been here a while. Unless I've missed something, you are not one who spews that sort of bile. Championing those who do seems odd to me.

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mmjPatient22 3 years, 6 months ago

As someone who has relied on my status as "anonymous" for a couple of years on this site, I can express my appreciation for that fact. If it were not for the anonymity offered on this site, I would most likely refrain from commenting on much of anything. Any comments I would offer would be a domesticated/neutered/PC version of whatever my free thoughts were, and to me that's unacceptable. I, for one, happen to cherish the freedom of speech that countless thousands of men & women have died to protect and I won't be readily relinquishing that freedom any time soon. In that same spirit, I also believe that those same men & women fought(or would have, at least) for the right to be anonymous. "Right or wrong" is completely indiscriminate towards "whom." Justice is blind, to be cliche.

That being said, I have to agree with sled and the other pro-anonymous people. Some subjects are better heard when free/uninhibited voices are allowed to portray their opinions with the fervor and passion that inspire their ideas. Such views, however necessary for truly balanced debate, can often be abrasive, needless to say, and have the possibility of causing adverse reactions for those that issue them. This most especially holds true for issues of freedom, and/or lack there of, like the discussion at hand. There shouldn't be stifled voices unless those voices aren't adhering to the predetermined rules set forth in becoming a voice on here in the first place. I don't know how anyone could construe those rules as anything other than "have some manners," but I guess some do. Granted, I have been guilty of letting my old sailors tongue get the best of me from time to time, but I've made an honest effort at cleaning that up a bit for those of you that it offends. And bravo to the Pilot for staying on top of their game by removing the justly removable comments on here, even a couple being mine. Civility is a large part of being a member of a civilization. If someone can't be civil in how they communicate with others, chances are that they aren't well heard on a lot of their topics. That doesn't necessarily mean that their topics hold no merit, nor that their support of any particular side of a debate automatically makes that side the wrong side. All that it means is their presentation of those topics could be a little more refined and palatable to the average Joe/Jane. It seems all too easy for some to toss the lot of us in with the few that have a propensity for making the rest of us look bad.

So, in the end, I guess I'm just another anonymous cannabis user that wants to be heard just as bad as, if not worse than, those on the other side of the debate.

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mmjPatient22 3 years, 6 months ago

And as for what anonymity means to me, personally, I can offer a brief example or two.

Brian Kotowski and I have met on a couple of occasions. Due to my anonymity, I'm mostly certain that he had(has?) no idea about my identity as mmjPatient22 and I was able to recognize him only because of his picture that he's had on here for some time now.

Lisa Watts and I have done business together with-in the last year, or so, where I am currently employed. She wanted to make sure I knew all about the Tea Party and how wonderful it all was.

I'm positive that I've met a few more of you and I know a couple of you on a personal level. However, I would bet greenbacks to pesos that a vast majority of those that I interact with could have less of a clue about my identity on this web site. But I can almost certainly guarantee that my employment would come into jeopardy if a few certain people knew exactly who I am in relation to my identity on here.

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sledneck 3 years, 6 months ago

Sep, We agree on much. I am not championing "them". I am a champion of freedom. I do not fear personal attacks. I fear waking up one day in a nation full of people who are afriad to speak their mind.

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1999 3 years, 6 months ago

I fear waking up one day in a nation full of people who are afriad to speak their mind

yes!

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rhys jones 3 years, 6 months ago

While I can understand the desire to maintain anonymity for several possible reasons, I have chosen not to for myself. I have nothing to hide, have shown my dirty laundry here before. And my opinions are sometimes so controversial, I don't want to be accused of hiding behind the skirts of facelessness. There's only one of me in town, and many of you know me. I'll talk about anything, as long as you want.

I HAVE made an occasional ill-considered remark in here before, only to see it soon disappear, so I know there is some level of monitoring, loose as it may be.

Nevertheless I try not to be too offensive or get too personal, not only because I don't like to stoop to that level, but because YOU know who I am, and I'd rather not get ambushed!!

Weren't you the guy running for Congress, Bob? I think we met at the VFW. Maybe you remember -- rhys is pronounced "reese."

I'm not hiding, Bob. I believe in democracy, and freedom!!

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canyonwind 3 years, 6 months ago

Hey BOB with the unemployment rate( the real one ) over 20%, some people may not want their employer to know their political views. When you tell people the TRUTH about MMJ or how pot is far safer than Tobacco and Alcohol and the war on drugs is the US at war with its own people or the Truth about 9-11, how Bush, Obama, the CIA, FBI are the real terrorist, not some guy in a cave, or that Global Warming is a hoax put foward to tax Carbon Dioxide one of the 4 building blocks that make life possible, people frown on those who don't believe the lies put forth by Washington DC. Freedom of spech only go's so far. As for the bobbsey twins no one should make threats or trash their homes those fools hurt those who support the truth and should be locked up. I think their motives are not what they say, alot of money is being spent just to put a few people out of business, those adds in the paper are not cheap and just don't ring true. Bob I do respect your views and think you might have been a better pick than Tippton but there is no problem with MMJ and no one has been hurt or killed by MMJ or the debate.

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pitpoodle 3 years, 6 months ago

Anonymous or not, everyone has a right to their opinion. You don't like their opinion or their words - too damn bad. The alternative is this: "waking up one day in a nation full of people who are afraid to speak their mind". Grow up Bob.

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rhys jones 3 years, 6 months ago

Our last regime murdered our own citizens, just to justify a war mainly to fatten the personal holdings of the Fed, Bush, and Cheney, to name a few. The evidence is unmistakeable. We are indeed The Ugly American, in the world's eye.

So I'd hope they would throw us a bone, and fully legalize it, or at least remove it from Schedule 1. Make pot the new "opiate of the masses," blinding us to the atrocities we commit on a daily basis. This from an ex-Jarhead. There's EVIL going on, it's a lot of smoke and mirrors, quite a professional production, petty misers pulling the puppet strings, while most of us plod on, oblivious, buying the act. mmj is the least of our problems.

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pitpoodle 3 years, 6 months ago

Hello Rhys. Our current regime is murdering our own citizens, just to justify a war mainly to fatten the personal holdings of the Fed, Obama, Biden, to name a few. Is this new evidence?

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canyonwind 3 years, 6 months ago

Highwaystar Bush and co did pull off 9-11 but lets not forget the first attempt on WTC during Clinton Gore in the mid 1990 or Oklahoma City, that Mc Veigh nut had help from the Feds. Or Obama he just renewed the Patriot Act, GitMo is still open and we are now at war with Lybia a desert nation with lots of OIL and WATER or how about FDR locking up Japanese/American's for no reason during WW2 or the test done on Black People in the 1950, they were injected with STD's and don't get me started on the Bilderberg group or I'll be here all night. And they say this is a free country. Right now our only hope is Ron Paul 2012

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sledneck 3 years, 6 months ago

Democracy is over-rated. A lynch mob is a democracy. Freedom and democracy are NOT the same! We are supposed to be "a nation of laws rather than a nation of men"; meaning: It doesn't matter who you are, or who you know, or who your daddy's lawyer knows, the law is applied equally to all. (i know thats a joke but we didn't make that concept a joke, they did) I still actually think thats how it outta be.

Stop begging for your rights. Free men never beg for their rights. You are the only legitimate ruler of the "kingdom of you". Act like it! If your kingdom does not require a: social security number, perscription, permit, license, tax ID number, etc then don't entertain the clowns who say otherwise. As Bastiat once said, "for laws to be respected they must be respectable".

Ron Paul understands true freedom better than anyone I have heard in the field. And he definitely sees how the Fed is robbing the american people of the very ground their forefathers died for. Yes, he's an outsider but so were most of those who signed the Declaration of Independance.

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canyonwind 3 years, 6 months ago

 With all thats been said there is still one thing that rubs me the wrong way about Lisa Watts.  She calls herself a big Tea Party member, she gave a speech on the steps on the Moffat county courthouse on Tax Day and from what she says she is no friend of the Feds,  Big Government and Obama care.  The simple minded media at MSNBC would have you believe the Tea Party are a bunch of old white men, but there are many Black, Hispanic, Asian and women in there ranks and alot are young as well.  
  TEA stands for Taxed Enough Already and this group is no friend of the Dems or the GOP, the $1.5 Trillion Banker bailouts where Bush and Obama are both to blame, Obama care that may cost $2 Trillion and also the fact that one may not be able to pick the type of" Medical Care of their Choice"  that last one is big with the Tea Party.  So how can Lisa Watts side with the FEDS and the Obama Administration when most Tea Party members would rather pick their own care and not have the FEDS pick for them. Why is that Lisa? Why deni a patient a right to access the care they want?  Many of these people who want MMJ may be Tea Party Members, they may not want to get hooked on OXYCOTTIN or can not afford a $700 bottle of those pills when a $200 bag of MMJ and some ibuprofen will do the job.  Why side with Obama on this medical issue or are you a member when the wind blows the right way???   People like you give that group a bad name and thats too bad since they have some very good ideas.
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seeuski 3 years, 6 months ago

Freedom planet and the rantings of Alex Jones, 9/11truthers and Van Jones. Something strange in the water for sure.

The common denominator between the 1993 WTC bombing, the 1995 OK city bombing, the 1998 Khobar towers bombing, the 2000 USS COLE bombing and 9/11 is the Ramsey Yousef Khalid Sheik Mohhamad terror cell. Clintons poor decision making and GWB's oil connections or whatever the truthers claimed are NOT the evil do'ers. The CIA, FBI or any other US service group had nothing to do with it, there certainly was much they could have done to stop it if Goehrlich had not forced the wall of silence between the agencies communicating as the Israelis warned one of them that Muhhamed Atta was here and up to no good. Tell a lie long enough though and some will suck on the hook I guess. It was a Frenchman who came out with the story of the US bombing the Pentagon and claiming that an airliner never hit the building, but as I said several years ago, one of the people who died on flight 77 was a lifelong friend of my Cousin and he is not living in some paradise as a part of the whole nutty conspiracy. Alex Jones has an effective way of mixing fact with fiction that is quite compelling to some, but idiotic to most. Good luck with the continued conquest of the bologna.

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Brian Kotowski 3 years, 6 months ago

My last word:

No freedom is (or should be) absolute. Absolute freedom = anarchy. We impose restrictions on speech every day of the week.

If I'm on my cell phone at the Bud Werner Library, I will be asked to end the call or leave the facility. Free speech be damned.

If I'm having coffee at Off The Beaten Path, and the discussion I'm having with another patron escalates to the point that we're shouting insults at each other, we'll be asked to get a grip or leave the building. Free speech be damned.

Anyone who regards those kinds of guidelines (manners, in other words) as dire assaults on their right to free speech is being more than a little childish, and in need enormously thicker skin, as sledneck is wont to observe.

The Steamboat Today has three options:

  1. Do nothing, delete the ocassional post, and allow the bullys to keep on keeping on.
  2. Disable the accounts of those who confuse liberty wiith license.
  3. Exempt the annonymous from this board.

It'll be interestesting to see what happens. My prediction: the path of least resistance, enabling the trolls to keep on trolling.

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canyonwind 3 years, 6 months ago

Seeyouski, those towers were brought down and that is not a easy task, its not something that a few guys with box cutters and 2 737 can pull off. Those 19 guys had help from our Government it is known as a false flag attack and not the first one the boys in Washington DC pulled off. And yes I believe the CIA was a major player in 9-11, if the CIA can flood the inner cities with Crack Cocaine that turned places like LA into war zones where thousands died in gang violence each year and countless more lifes were destroyed whats another 3000 in New York City. Our Government could care less about the people, all they care about is money and power

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bill schurman 3 years, 6 months ago

BTW, I only mentioned that Lisa & Kelly do not live in the city because they cannot vote on their little ballot Q. I could care less how long they lived here. Heck, I've lived here since May 1975 and I'm not yet a "local". My kids who were born her are. See 'ya.

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rhys jones 3 years, 6 months ago

Those towers were designed to take a direct hit from a jet larger than those that hit them, fully laden with fuel. Structural steel will not melt below about 2500 degrees, and open jet fuel will burn no hotter than about 1200 degrees. The main girders, at the bottom of the pile, were cut at clean 45 degree angles, as if by thermite. There were several explosions, which can be seen on tape. Those were very professional IMPLOSIONS.

I was listening to NPR out of Flagstaff, on 9/11, shortly afterward. A senior FAA official, talking about Flight 93 (?) the one that went down over Pennsylvania, said they "knew it was headed for the White House" and "we had to bring it down." As in F-16. Only later did the heroic-passenger story emerge, yet another fabrication.

Smoke and mirrors, folks.

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MrTaiChi 3 years, 6 months ago

I've posted here for about three years and had one stricken, an event that left me baffled as I called no names, used no racial or other epithets or violated my understanding of norms of discourse. I guess that the first sentence of Mr. McConnell's opinion piece meant to exclude me from the class of cowards, although the evaluation of speech is subjective, so like the confederate battle flag, the offense or in this case, 'cowardice', is in the eye of the beholder. As indicated above, the paper has limited choices with this issue although there are sound reasons why a poster may not want to reveal his identity, e.g. employment consequences; embargo of his business; criminal threats and intimidation, or that even if he is willing to brave nastiness, he may not want to visit those consequences on his family including children and grandchildren who are clueless that they are being retaliated against or why.

I had one responder imply that I was homosexual, something I found deeply offensive, and now my offense will cause someone else to be offended. If my actual name had been associated with the muck throwing, who knows in what dark corner of a dark mind some might stick? I got over it, but if such behavior became normative, I'd stop participating and reading the posts. I've noted that some of the posters of years past have stopped posting, perhaps in reaction to the discourse which has degenerated to SHOUTING and wind on some threads.

I like being able to offer ideas anonymously. I liked the reasoned contributions of fromer posters who are apparently turned off by the ignorant passion of posts recently, and who are now silent.

If you make knowiing my name a condition of posting, I'm out.

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rhys jones 3 years, 6 months ago

Sorry to digress, Bob, but my name is up there, and I am SCARED. What's going to really happen? How big will our little mmj spat be, when the banks are closed, and the grocery stores, and the gas stations? How long 'til this economy goes POP??

We borrow almost half our annual budget. China owns us. Unemployment gets worse; the only reason the job-loss rate goes down is because there are fewer jobs to lose. Property values continue to decline. But Dow stays healthy; somebody is making out.

And now it resembles the shell game -- where's the pea? And don't look behind that curtain!! Just worry about your little pot laws. We'll take care of the big picture for you.

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Brian Kotowski 3 years, 6 months ago

It looks like I lied: my previous post was not my last word. Mea culpa.

If the anonymity privilege were to be eradicated, MrTaiChi is the one contributor here whom I'd miss. But if the miscreants are allowed their unabated vitriol, then “I'm out”, to quote MrTaiChi.

It seems that the second of the three options delineated in my previous post is the one that would accommodate both sides of this particular coin. But it's contingent upon the Steamboat Today growing a pair, and I don't see that happening.

Six of one, half-dozen of the other. That's life.

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George Hresko 3 years, 6 months ago

Like Sep, I would miss MrTaiChi, but would understand his reasons for ceasing to participate. My guess is that the truly creative types can come up with many more options that SP&T could pursue than can I. Here are a few that came into my mind as I read the several recent comments here. The first I can see would be to just stop the forum completely. We have no right to it. It's a cost to the paper, and if there is no obvious community benefit, then why continue? I know other media have dropped their readers blog fora--especially when they observed that the vast, vast majority of comments came from a very minor percentage of the community--continuing MrTaiChi's observation that many former contributors have simply removed themselves from the dialog. If dropping is deemed too drastic an intial step, then perhaps creating two separate blogs, one for those who prefer to be anonymous and one for those who do not chose anonymity, could be considered? Another option to explore would be to charge each blogger a minor amount, say a buck, for each comment. This would help defray the cost for the paper, and if the comment was deemed inappropriate, it could be removed and the buck not returned? Cheers!

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rhys jones 3 years, 6 months ago

I say we let a sleeping dog lie, and just try to be cool in here.

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rhys jones 3 years, 6 months ago

... and hoping this is cool, I thought I'd continue my prior harangue, briefly I hope.

Because another possibility occurred to me... suppose the heroic efforts DID work, the passengers DID get control, and we shot it down anyway? That guy said "we" there was no mistake about it. That might cast a whole new light on things. Maybe they thought the bad guys still had it. Anyway, what went on isn't what they'd have you believe now.

As is the case often; I'm sure I've related before how I got in on the ground floor of Homeland Security's nerve center, in Glendale, AZ, where they monitor and dictate all national and international news, as it comes in, all networks. While the firemen and SWAT teams play in their ground outside. I scraped rocks one way or the other, for the parking lots and roads, so ground floor was I.

Anyway, you can't believe anything you see, and only half of what you hear. This column won't hurt me; my bosses are always cool.

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seeuski 3 years, 6 months ago

Question to my 9/11 truther friends! Would a jumbo jet hitting the side of the WTC at full throttle with the explosions and the fuel tanks full of aviation fuel destroy any of the main support beams leaving the above floors substantially weakened? Would the heat from the intense fires eventually cause the above floors to pancake ontop of one another forcing the compressing air and fire to blow one after the other as they flattened onto one another? Wouldn't there be numerous people involved with the planning and wouldn't it be impossible to maintain silence from intel leaks? And then to have your theory taken to it's completion, the Israeli's and the Zionists were behind it for their desires to take over the world as the 9/11 truthers like Van Jones, the Obama Commie, would have us all believe. The truth is there is a movement to take over the world and those players goals are to end the lives of every Jew and Infidel and the existence of the state of Israel along with the USA as a free society. There are real facts about the series of terrorist attacks that started with the 1993 WTC bombing that can be supported with actual data, why try this fantasy that requires mental acrobatics? Enjoy.

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canyonwind 3 years, 6 months ago

Seauski and YVB. 9-11 was alot of lies and with a little research you can find out the truth for yourself and both parties had a hand in it, not just Bush.

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seeuski 3 years, 6 months ago

Oh there were alot of lies for sure, but this Alex Jones crap is just that. I really do feel sorry for you if you believe it to be true or I despise you if you wish it to be true. Answer the part about the 9/11 truthers blaming the Jews for it. What is your position on that one canyonwind? And for your info I have done my research on both your conspiracy and on every attack leading up to it. There is no doubt that Clinton lied to us about both the first WTC bombing and the OK City bombing and Bush kept the secret for his rear end as a part of the Presidents club. What documents and why did Sandy Berger destroy them from the national archives? A Clinton buddy to be sure. YVB, you are right but silence is acceptance and I can't do it.

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seeuski 3 years, 6 months ago

Why have there been no letters to the Editor from Obama supporters praising the POTUS of late? That would get a great string started for sure, something about the stimulus hitting a "bump in the road" or a "head wind". Even the Wrangler would have trouble with! Can you imagine if a President Palin or Cain were to make a stupid statement like that? How the MSM would jump? The World is on fire, come on Obama supporters, we are now involved in wars in Yemen and Libya and who knows what else since Obama fails to seek Congressional approval for his troop movements. Where is the anti war outcry we saw under GWB along with the calls for impeachment even though Bush DID get Congressional approval along with a UN resolution?

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canyonwind 3 years, 6 months ago

CUski I never heard that Isreal had a hand in it or as you like to call them (the Jews) No this one's on many in our own Government.

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seeuski 3 years, 6 months ago

You need to follow the conspiracy to the end, go back to prison planet, it's there. And when I say "the Jews" that is not me but the believers who use that terminology as I fall into the category of whom they are blaming. We apparently want to run the world.

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canyonwind 3 years, 6 months ago

Still don't follow you. Isreal has enough problems of their own and I have never heard they had a hand in it or believe it to be true.

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jimmmmmm 3 years, 6 months ago

Seeuski-You're just upset that Palin tooted out one of the most remarkable historical recounts I may have ever heard. I nearly shot coffee out of my nose listening to that nonsense. Sorry, I know that's your candidate, but really? Even her kid looked embarrassed. SNL couldn't have written it any better. I sure hope she sticks around.

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canyonwind 3 years, 6 months ago

http://www.adl.org/PresRele/ASInt_13/4346_13.htm

CUski heres a link from the ADL website about the lies told re: Jews and 9-11 but it did not blame Alex Jones or Prison Planet however it does sound like something Jesse Jackson would say he has called places like New York City and the San Fernando Valley as hime towns during his run for the White House back in 1988

http://prisonplanet.tv/ http://www.infowars.com/

With these web sites who needs Faux News. BSNBC or CNoNews(CNN)

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seeuski 3 years, 6 months ago

For those who got there Paul Revere history from the cartoons and think Sarah Palin blew it, keep up the tirade, Sarah always comes out on top in the end as she is versed on it and her account as she answered is accurate. Poor jimmmmmmmmm.... still getting his news from comedians. Love it. Are there still 57 states jimmmmmmmm? Are the Marines corpses or corps? I can bust out on fauxbama all day long, I just can't wait until he is up against Sarah in the debates and has to answer for his Marrxist policies that are destroying our America.

Thanks canyonwind, while I will go through my days knowing that 9/11 was a terrorist attack committed by Muslims through the Kahlid Sheik Muhammad terror cell which was responsible for the 1993 WTC attack, the OK City attack, the Khobar, Cole and 9/11 and will never fall prey to the make believe, I do appreciate your looking at the truth of 9/11 truthers blaming the so called Zionists for it. And Jesse Jackson along with Al Sharpton are the biggest hypocrite race hustlers ever and are responsible for actual deaths through their incitement in the past. Look it up, a store in NYC was firebombed, a cop committed suicide for being falsely accused. And you can't get facts on serious events through any MSM these days, just some gloss over and in the case of the Soros paid for media which includes CNN, ABC, CBS, NBC, NPR, Media Matters etc. you get lies and deceit.

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jimmmmmm 3 years, 6 months ago

Yep-Paul Revere warned the British. Is that why you were over on the Wikopedia site trying to rewrite the Paul Revere history with all the other Palin supporters?

Good one. Unfortunately, her ratings go down with every random word that she spews. My only regret is that I probably won't be able to see those debates, b/c her brand is a joke, and so is anyone who supports her.

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seeuski 3 years, 6 months ago

Stick with comedy central, wiki may be too tough a read for you. Did Paul Revere just yell " the British are coming, the British are coming"? People like you are so vulnerable to actual history.

And I would not be bragging with that avatar just yet, there may be some trouble brewing with your Saviors activities. Stay tuned.

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canyonwind 3 years, 6 months ago

CUski I do remember that incident in New York City, Sharpton called the Jews living in that hood" Interlopers" I guess he does not read the ADL newsletter to say the least. But if I remember correctley old Al Sharpton and Tawana Brawley should have gone to jail for was it arson or starting a riot or both but he walked.

http://www.ronpaul2012.com/

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mmjPatient22 3 years, 6 months ago

If this is the story that Sarah Palin was trying to tell, I think she had a ways to go.

http://www.earlyamerica.com/lives/revere/chapt2/

Which states:

"It may be questioned whether the patriots at this early date seriously contemplated war as an inevitable consequence of the drift of events. But if they were already anticipating that dread alternative as impossible of avoidance they could not have acted with greater prescience in sending Revere to Portsmouth to stir up the New Hampshire patriots to make the attack on Fort William and Mary.

The whole object of that attack was not, primarily, to offer insult to the King, but to secure means of defence against the time when they might be needed."

If she interpreted that information and the rest of the information in that chapter of the story as "warning the British that they weren't gonna be taking away our arms," then what kind of interpretation would she put on being President?

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seeuski 3 years, 6 months ago

So why would I get behind another anti-semite in the form of Ron Paul? Never.

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seeuski 3 years, 6 months ago

mmj, I am spending time looking at older writings on the subject and there is a book that is being touted as very thoroughly investigated and closest to the actual happenings.

Paul Revere's Ride by David Hackett Fischer. I am reading some of it and I can see where Palin is trying to give a quick answer to a more complex accounting of the meaning of the events of that time. Many Historians are saying that Palin is accurate. I would rather have someone who knows how many states we have in the USA and actually loves the Country than who we now are suffering through. The media seems to fear her, places like the WashPost are asking their readers to sift through the emails of Palins term as Governor so they can bash her. Can you imagine if that type of energy would be unleashed against Obama? Could he survive that amount of scrutiny? I say, not a chance.

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jimmmmmm 3 years, 6 months ago

This just keeps getting better and better. This Paul Revere thing has really got you into double secret spin overdrive. When your done researching Paul's ride, in a desperate attempt to support your candidate, remember, what she said and what happened are completely different.

When your done with that, let me know how this question is a "gotcha" question: "What are you going to take away from your visit?"

The answer was truly remarkable. I do hope to see those debates.

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rhys jones 3 years, 6 months ago

I see the conversation has switched gears to politics, but I saw "destroying America" a minute ago, and will use that as excuse to revert to 9/11 for a moment. When I saw Jews advanced as possible culprits, I thought Where did that come from? I think the obvious instigator is the Fed themselves -- the corporation. Which controls the U.S. economy, sets the interest rates, prints the "money," and loans more to the government in the form of treasury bonds. (I'm a simple economist; exact details may vary, but the essence is true.)

Their business is war; that's where they make the most money, loaning it to Uncle Sam. It's been that way since their inception in 1913, one war after another, however well-justified, and when we didn't have a war, the economy floundered, or dove. War is good for business, all the fuel and jets and uniforms and boots they need. Business was so good, all the gold in Fort Know was hocked to the Fed, and guess where it was now stored: Yup, the World Trade Center.

Bush's relative (uncle? in-law?) had the securities contract on the WTC, and shut the whole center down, the weekend prior to 9/11, for a massive rewiring. Steve Jobs went to work anyway, and reports hearing a heavy rumbling from the floor above his, which was generally inaccessible, not even in the elevator selection. You don't suppose...

Building 7 in the WTC came down too, another clean implosion, and NOTHING HIT IT!! Now how did THAT happen?? That was also the home of the NSA, making one wonder what secrets were buried in that rubble.

I can't say I know what's going on; it just don't smell right to me. Don't think I haven't considered my options. Given just a bit more success with my software, northern Italy looms large on my to-do list, and I can run that business from literally anywhere.

But I'm not gonna let a bunch of rednecks chase me off either; this is MY country too, and I put in my honorable and competent service. I don't think it's time to throw in the towel just yet. I think it can still be saved, and I'd like to see that happen too. Dump the Fed, would be my first suggestion.

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rhys jones 3 years, 6 months ago

Ft. KNOX, stupid spell-checker, don't know when right is wrong.

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rhys jones 3 years, 6 months ago

Besides that, I got my pass for next year, so I'm here that long anyway.

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canyonwind 3 years, 6 months ago

CUski I can't find any info about Ron Paul being a antisemite however, Hillary Clinton is at Bilderberg along with Texas Gov Rick Perry. Obama is also a Bilderberg member. The Bilderberg group is very anti semite and Ron Paul is very opposed to much of Bilderbergs plans for a one world goverenment. However I did learn that his own party the GOP are trying to break up his district not that would stop him from running but it go's to show you how much power has compared to Palin, Romney and The sellout Pro Carbon Tax Newt Gigrich.

http://prisonplanet.tv/.

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seeuski 3 years, 6 months ago

Your response that you can find nothing on Ron Paul being anti Semitic or anti Israel or even somewhat anti American shows that you are a committed Paul supporter. I have spent enough time listening to Ron Paul blame Israel, blame America for Hamas and Al Quaida and I have listened to Ron Paul support the Ground Zero Mosque and the Palestinians and I have spent enough time reading the rantings of his supporters and their hatred for Jews. They claim that the Jews are trying to run the world through the Bilderberg group and the Fed. This same kind of propaganda was seen aplenty during the Hitler rise to power. "Never again" no to Ron Paul.

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seeuski 3 years, 6 months ago

We may agree though on the Globalist issues as it relates to Bilderberg, I am not a fan of Perry for POTUS and I am damn sure you won't find any connections in the 24,000 emails of Sarah Palin that the press is currently rummaging through for any dirt, and that could relate her to the Bilderberg group, Sarah is a true American in the mindset of Reagan. And her documentation is not forged. 2 things that I can predict for 2012, Weiner nor Obama will be elected for anything.

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canyonwind 3 years, 6 months ago

Palin did good work as Govornor of Alaska and a better job while she was on the Natural Resource committe but she had no idea how to deal with the press. And no Palin or Parnell AK curent GOV are not part of the Bilderburg group and he is not trying to take aways Alaskans right to posess and grow small amounts of MJ. My biggest problem with Palin is can she win? Or sure she can win states Colorado Wyoming Idaho,Montana and a lot of other land locked states but can she carry the NorthEast the way a Ron Paul might, the west coast is different Obama won't lose CA OR or WA or his homeland of Hawaii. I hope your right SKI about 2012 but I don't want to see some pro Carbon Tax, Bilderberg group lackey in the White House come 1-20-13. It was kinda funny how they made the media go up to Juneau and pick up the Emails in paper form as for Wiener don't be suprized if he trys to buy the HUNGRY DOG :+O

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seeuski 3 years, 6 months ago

LOL on the dog, good one. People have under estimated Palin throughout her political career, Ron Paul? He will always have around 10% of the vote, that is it. Most Americans are aware of his moral flaws. And no one handles the amount of media scrutiny that Palin has had from the second McCain named her, she is now battle tested and preparing for the full out war and assault that only she can survive. The only thing the media can throw at her is her down home folksy manner of speaking, whoopee.

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seeuski 3 years, 6 months ago

Plus, why else have they been so nasty and relentless in their attacks on her? 24,000 emails and they have yet to find any dirt, can Obama live up to that amount, or any scrutiny? Who else in the running could? No one, we might even find a few more Weiners under a magnifying glass like what shes been under.

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canyonwind 3 years, 6 months ago

As a former Alaska Resident I can tell you that the politics up their were not on the up and up, Palin had a hand in cleaning things up out there and that pissed off the power brokers of Alaska. When she was on the Natural Resource Committe she pissed off BIG OIL, doing that will often bring your small plane down on a huge cloud covered glacier. If she would get a voice coach it would do her wonders if she wants to be POTUS. As for Paul being some kind of hater I just don't buy it and I have a Jewish last name. If you never want it to happen again then NEVER give up your GUN RIGHTS, an unarmed people is not feared by the Stalins, Castros, and Hittlers or Obamas for that matter and of course VOTE everytime no matter if its just for School Board. See you at the polls.

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seeuski 3 years, 6 months ago

Well, I agree with the gun stuff, but you need to go to youtube and search for some of the Ron Paul Israel comments. And then go to his groups and follow a few of the links and you might find some of the neo Nazi's that I found. Be careful of who you support based on one or two pet issues, I find that some politicians use the emotional issues to gain votes for their true designs, heck we got Obama that way.

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canyonwind 3 years, 6 months ago

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/lists/freest-least-free-states/intro.html?state=play

The important thing is to get someone new in the  White House who is not a Bilderberg member.  The link above is off topic, it list the 5 freest and 5 least free states Colorado and Idaho made the top 5 while taking up the rear were California, New York and New Jersey.  Another site had Colorado at the top and California at the bottom  We should put the right people in office on the state and local level so we keep our spot on the list.
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Brian Kotowski 3 years, 6 months ago

Ron Paul is a fringe candidate who is as likely to secure the GOP nomination as Dennis Kucinich is of becoming the Democrat nominee.

An open letter to Congressman Paul from Michael Medved, published during his last presidential run; to which the good doctor has never replied: http://townhall.com/tipsheet/michaelmedved/2007/10/26/an_open_letter_to_rep_ron_paul

Dear Congressman Paul:

Your Presidential campaign has drawn the enthusiastic support of an imposing collection of Neo-Nazis, White Supremacists, Holocaust Deniers, 9/11 “Truthers” and other paranoid and discredited conspiracists.

Do you welcome- or repudiate – the support of such factions?

More specifically, your columns have been featured for several years in the American Free Press –a publication of the nation’s leading Holocaust Denier and anti-Semitic agitator, Willis Carto. His book club even recommends works that glorify the Nazi SS, and glowingly describe the “comforts and amenities” provided for inmates of Auschwitz.

Have your columns appeared in the American Free Press with your knowledge and approval?

As a Presidential candidate, will you now disassociate yourself, clearly and publicly, from the poisonous propaganda promoted in such publications?

As a guest on my syndicated radio show, you answered my questions directly and fearlessly.

Will you now answer these pressing questions, and eliminate all associations between your campaign and some of the most loathsome fringe groups in American society?

Along with my listeners (and many of your own supporters), I eagerly await your response.

Respectfully, Michael Medved

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canyonwind 3 years, 6 months ago

Not alot here pointing to Nazi or other Socialist ties http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politica...

But I guess the Denver used car salesman knows better

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seeuski 3 years, 6 months ago

canyonwind, Wiki just strengthens the argument against the nutcase Paul, and why those listed by Medved(not the same as the car dealer in Denver) flock to this Jew hater.

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canyonwind 3 years, 6 months ago

If he was a nazi the press would be all over him. They called GWBush a nazi for that matter and I think they were wrong. Paul said he thinks we should not support Isreal, but thats about it. Isreal could turn all their neighbors to dust with out our help. WE also need to get out of Iraq Lybia and Afganistan and the UN, and not try to start a war with Pakistan. All these wars are based in lies and don't help anyone.

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sledneck 3 years, 6 months ago

The wars help the defense industry quite a bit. They also help the government in general as it always needs a "boogy-man" to keep the sheeple riled up and ready to "patriotically" ceed ever more freedoms for imaginary security.

What I think we need to do is put out an amber alert for the war protesters. There were thousands of them back when Bush was president but they are all gone. Missing in action, and I am alarmed at their absence. I am sure, principled as they are, they would NEVER abandon a cause just because the wars were now being "mongered" by a leftist whom they love. Noooo.

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seeuski 3 years, 6 months ago

Uhh canyonwind, Ron Paul is a supporter of the Palestinians and the Ground Zero Mosque, and has made a statement that "Israel created Hamas and the USA created Al Quaida". I am to the point where I am sure you and most of the rest of the Ron Paul gang are very aware of his positions so I am done with this particular exercise in futility. There is a good female candidate who just last night articulated why we don't belong in Libya or Yemen, and my guess is she would get us out of the other wars by either winning them or declaring mission accomplished and vacating those deserts.

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seeuski 3 years, 6 months ago

And last night the guy was rambling and slurring, he looked disheveled, pretty scary to go from one mystery man, Obama, to another in the form of Paul, especially when there is no mystery to his feelings on Israel. Yea great, so you would be fine with Israel having to launch their nukes because Ron Paul ended the USA and Israels relationship and the Arabs attacked from all fronts to kill off the Jews and accomplish the goal of the final solution? Ever hear the term "never again"? We mean it.

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canyonwind 3 years, 6 months ago

CUski you still have show me no proff of Paul being a Nazi, he was the only guy who told the truth last night not that the debate mattered, like who cares if they like deep dish or Johny Cash, Blackberry or Droid who cares. But that is the brain speed of the CNoNews crew. If Paul is a Nazi why is he so opposed to the pro Nazi Bilderberg group? And yes I think Isreal can fight their own battles without our money they are a very strong nation. As for "It will never happen again" they have plans not for Hittlers 6,000,000 or Stalins 25,000,000 but the next time around it will be more like 5,000,0000,000+ http://www.endgamethemovie.com/ Just google global population reduction or better yet use another search engine since the google boys were at Bilderberg

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