Maynard Short: Oak Creek pot sham

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— The opening paragraph of Sunday’s article about medical marijuana in Oak Creek (“Oak Creek medical marijuana debate continues”) is very enlightening: “Although the South Routt School District, Oak Creek Police Department, and several residents support a town ban on the sale and commercial growth of medical marijuana, the Oak Creek Town Board is looking at forging ahead with revisions to the ordinance that was passed just more than a year ago.”

In America we have a representative system of government, and at every level the representatives are voted in to represent the constituency’s viewpoints and not their personal biases, choices or agendas.

One really begins to wonder just who the Oak Creek Town Council is representing.

Just how many medical marijuana patients are there in Oak Creek? Are there enough to justify a business that has the potential to be the largest marijuana grow factory in Colorado?

One trustee says “… but we’ve already started going down the road, and we don’t want to ruin the lives of these people who have a lot of money invested in this town for this specific

reason.” An unbelievable example of distorted logic.

I wrote a letter to the editor one year ago about the sham of the Oak Creek Town Board’s decision. It is now a situation where the unintended consequences are hitting Oak Creek with the full force of public awareness and a citizenry up in arms as to what is happening.

Over half of the Town Board members do not own property in Oak Creek, do not earn their living in Oak Creek, do not have a history of more than five years in Oak Creek, and they are deciding the future of Oak Creek based on a questionable business venture.

And they feel guilty? What about the second- and third-generation families in the South Routt community whose names populate the cemetery? Are they being represented by this renegade Town Board? I think not.

It is time the Town Board faced up to what its bad decision was and step up to the plate and stop it. Yes, it will cost more now legally than it would have a year ago, but it is their responsibility as a representative government.

I think the members of the Town Board who have backed this owe Oak Creek and the South Routt community a sincere apology, and perhaps a manifestation of that apology would be their individual letters of resignation.

Comments

Scott Wedel 3 years, 8 months ago

Maynard, An awful lot of old time residents are libertarians. Cargo won elections for mayor by landslides.

Anyone who thinks the outcome of a mmj ballot issue is a done deal is a fool.

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freerider 3 years, 8 months ago

Harry J. Anslinger would love you Maynard

Here's some government for you Maynard

Maynard you owe the people of America with an I.Q over 50 an apology

we are freaking tired of government lies and B.S Maynard -

Harry J. Anslinger 1937 drug czar and liar

Harry J. Anslinger quotes: ...the primary reason to outlaw marijuana is its effect on the degenerate races.

Harry J. Anslinger quotes: Marihuana leads to pacifism and communist brainwashing.

Harry J. Anslinger quotes: There are 100,000 total marijuana smokers in the US, and most are Negroes, Hispanics, Filipinos and entertainers. Their Satanic music, jazz and swing, result from marijuana usage. This marijuana causes white women to seek sexual relations with Negroes, entertainers and any others.

Harry J. Anslinger quotes: Reefer makes darkies think they're as good as white men.

Harry J. Anslinger quotes Marijuana is an addictive drug which produces in its users insanity, criminality, and death.

Harry J. Anslinger quotes: You smoke a joint and you're likely to kill your brother.

Harry J. Anslinger quotes: Marijuana is the most violence-causing drug in the history of mankind.

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muck 3 years, 8 months ago

This is funny! Maynard doesn't even live in Oak Creek. His residence is in P-Burg. Hey Manyard you don't have any despensaries in P-Burg. Do yourself and us a HUGE favor and STAY THERE!

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muck 3 years, 8 months ago

But he does go to the Colorado Bar and the Elks Tavern Bar 5-6 times a week to conduct his anti pot campaign. At the bar! Really Manyard the bar is your SOAP BOX LOCATION. What a outstanding PLACE to throw his insults to the community from our local BARS! THE BAR! Have another round and bitch some more!!!!

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rhys jones 3 years, 8 months ago

It's what, 4 miles from OC to Pburg, right? How does Maynard get home after pitching his fits? Has he been drinking? Does he drive? I'd suggest the intersection with 14 might be a good place for RCSO to set up shop some night, but since Maynard is of the same mindset as the cops, who must protect an ever-rarer ideology locally, he cruises home in comfort, still seething in his mind, and probably mostly forward, swerving minimal, being so well-practiced by now. He's an honorary member of the Badge Club, his good standing assured by occasional rhetoric such as we see displayed here.

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hereandthere 3 years, 8 months ago

Unintended consequences? And what are those? What serious problem has OC experienced? Instead of just shooting from the hip Maynard , how about some hard facts. Lets also talk about your support of alcohol in OC. No problem there, is there.

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PK Baldwin 3 years, 8 months ago

If you want 'hard facts' as to what the MMJ situation is doing in Oak Creek on Sharp Ave, just look at the one business that provides a service to the community that is 100% legal. It's shutting it's doors!!! Why? It's not just due to the health of one of the co-owners, but a compilation of events such as being encroached upon with MMJ grows, cooking, etc that has permeated the walls within this 'fully-legal', 'tax-producing' business that benefits the residents of Oak Creek. Even Lance has commented several times about the odor inside the store. So, folks, there's your 'hard facts' as to what MMJ is doing to Oak Creek. But before ya'll jump my case, let me state here and now. I am FOR MMJ and believe in its medical uses. HOWEVER, this is a controlled substance that is NOT being controlled in a manner which I deem should be enforced. And I hope I never see another pot plant being paraded down the boardwalk in front of the store, at least until after Saturday, April 30th when I shut the doors for good. I would also like to thank all the customers that did support us. Owner, Mountain Market Oak Creek

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IoSolUno 3 years, 8 months ago

For your information, MMJ is a "fully legal", "tax-producing" business that benefits the residents of Oak Creek. Marijuana patients, growers, and business owners have rights, as well, so do us all a favor and quit whinning and close your doors already. I hope to see a forest of marijuana plants "paraded down the sidewalk in front of your CLOSED store." and nobody cares what you "deem should be enforced" And that, folks, is the true HARD FACTS! Get used to it!

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muck 3 years, 8 months ago

The truth is that Black Mt Tavern failed in that SAME location as Mad Munchies. 2 different owners under 2 different times.

The truth is PK is that you TRIED to put a convinence store in a very UNCONVENIENT spot.

How much POT was by the gas station that caused you to fail in that location?

Thats the TRUTH!

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muck 3 years, 8 months ago

PK- What about Chelse's, Shorties, Mug Shots, Fourtunes? All POT related closures? Why would you move next to a existing MARIJUANA DESPENSERY and name your business MUNCHIES? Possible to profit from such a idea? But when the chips are down you have to blame someone or something. It can't possible be that our economy sucks so bad that people try to buy food from a chain store and not a overpriced convinence store. Or maybe its a curse? You said you were going to put OC on its ear and hurt other business when you moved into the gas station. Maybe it was not what you expected. Maybe you should put a store on Dunkley Pass so when some drives by they will actually SEE your store.

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John St Pierre 3 years, 8 months ago

Oak Creek is attempting to do what Blackhawk did with gambling... only industry they can get// as such they shoud be able to charge whatever fees they want and should go as high as they need to cover the enitre City budget.

I'm curious where the proceeds of these business's are going as any FDIC affiliated bank is barred by Fed regs and laws from knowingly accepting any type of "drug" monies. As such any proceeds deposited by these business from the sale of drugs (the Federal Government still considers pot to be illegal) under any other guise is is a major crime: Money Laundering, I wonder why the sheriff, local law enforcement have not picked up the phone.

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PK Baldwin 3 years, 8 months ago

First, let me say, I am NOT Munchies. I sell cigarettes, grocery, soda, lottery, etc. Mountain Market is a profitable business. It is the convenience store that was inside Oak Creek Sinclair. Second, when a store moves or relocates that does NOT mean it was unsuccessful, a failure, etc. Apparantly, you've been misinformed as to why I relocated the business. Thirdly, I have very loyal customers from Oak Creek and South Routt County who have supported us from day one. I am not a restaurant such as Chelsea's, Fortune's, Shorty's, and Mug Shots. Fourth, let's get your text straight if you're going to quote me. I said, "Re-opening the gas station would unintentionally hurt other businesses and that was against what I wanted to do." And lastly, since you've never been inside my store, Muck, you know absolutely nothing about it. High prices? Seriously? Everyone says I'm lower than the grocery store.

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hereandthere 3 years, 8 months ago

Odors? This is what the significant impact is that you are saying is destroying OC? The smell of a plant? Someone is carrying a pot plant across the street and your all worked up? No problem with Cargo careening down the highway drunk, eluding police? All the bars in OC dispensing drunks out into the street for us to contend with?

Something does smell here, and it aint the plants.

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IoSolUno 3 years, 8 months ago

Well everyone is lying to you... convenience store, restaraunt, whatever. The FACT is that the dispensary was there when you moved in, so quit bitching or move out. It appears, for whatever reason, that you have opted for the latter. Go then...you will not be missed. Maybe the dispensary could rent the space. Better for the community than Munchies. And the cigarettes you sell are legal, like MMJ, but they kill far more people than marijuana. You're just mad because your business failed due to whatever reasons, poor management skills, overpricing, bad location, etc.... It's not the dispensaries fault. Get a life!

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mmjPatient22 3 years, 8 months ago

"It is time the Town Board faced up to what its bad decision was and step up to the plate and stop it. Yes, it will cost more now legally than it would have a year ago, but it is their responsibility as a representative government."

I would think that their responsibility, as those that representatively govern, would be to respect what a MAJORITY of the voting public in this state decided was perfectly with-in their legal right as citizens, like Amendment 20.
I guess I just fail to grasp your sense of what resposibility is, or is not.

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mmjPatient22 3 years, 8 months ago

Maynard, PK, and all the other naysayers....

I hear that Oooooooooooooklahoma suits your tastes a little better now-a-days. Their state legislature just okay-ed a bill a week ago(that's right, on 4-20) that set the punishment for being caught in their state manufacturing hash(the concentrated form of cannabis) at a maximum sentence of LIFE in prison. Now, that's a little more your style, right? Maybe living in a flat state IS more than it's cracked up to be, but I was never able to find anything to do in Oklahoma other than drive around and be a redneck. And they take to drinkers down there like flies take to turds, so I'm sure you'll all be able to assimilate just fine.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=336&articleid=20110420_336_0_OKLAHO247887

.

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Scott Wedel 3 years, 8 months ago

Well, for people which smells from the neighbor was ruining their business, they have not been complaining about the smells much, if at all. Especially considering Mary's has a conditional use that they have filters and that smells will be addressed.

Nor does it make a lot sense to say "Mountain Market is a profitable business" and then say it is closing because of smells from the neighbor.

Also, when PK moved from the gas station, she widely told a story of how hundreds of gallons of gas were leaking a month and had reasons why it was not detected. Since I own a nearby property and heard that story enough times, I was concerned enough to contact the state agency that inspects gas stations and they had recently inspected the tanks which were not leaking and they had leak detection systems which were also tested and passed.

So I think that blaming MMJ is just an excuse.

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muck 3 years, 8 months ago

The only thing we have to fear, is fear itself.- FDR

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mmjPatient22 3 years, 8 months ago

...and being arrested on cannabis related charges.

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muck 3 years, 8 months ago

MMJ22- Small amounts seems to becoming a petty offense here in Colorado. I think the fear is that these people SEE plants and SMELL plants. It is these factors that have made this MMJ a reality for most. Its funny that all these GROWERS didnt become SMOKERS just in the last few years. They have been SMOKING POT way before they ever became a GROWER. And i wonder whats to become of all these TENS THOUSANDS of MMJ patients when SOME say the hammer will fall? Did you know that it costs $25,000.00 per year to house a DRUG OFFENDER? 25k! Where will we get all this money to house an addidtional 80,000.00 people like you? Also for what every 1 REGISTERED MMJ PATIENT i would say there is 3 UN-REGISTERED marijuana smoker. Would you agree?? And i am just talking COLORADO.

What are we talking in dollars for the cost of housing all 80k registered patients for 1 year is around $2,000,000,000.00ish per year. 2 TRILLION!

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rhys jones 3 years, 8 months ago

Now that you mention it, I always wondered about that $25K/yr cost for housing inmates. I wish I made that in a year, working an honest job. Yes, computer work is slow these days, at least for some of us.

So they do everything as efficiently as possible -- bed space is maximized; they put 'em on pads on the floor, when necessary. Much of those costs are recovered in "cost of care" for which the incarcerated is responsible. They make meals as cheaply as possible, buying everything in bulk, even serving road kill to the inmates. Sure there are standing costs -- jailers, utilities, building payments, help me out here. Still I do NOT understand how that can total $25K/yr per inmate.

Speaking of "pot shams," methinks SOMEBODY has figured how to stick their thumb in the pie. I wish I was one of the privileged few, who gets to play with the numbers while they are still big. The State would buy me a big car too!!

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Scott Wedel 3 years, 8 months ago

The $25K number per inmate is very real. 168 hours in a week so that is four shifts and so figuring in admin and such the ratio is one guard per 5 prisoners. Well, that is a bunch of the $25K right there. Cost of building and maintaining the prison (which is far more than residential housing) is also substantial.

BTW, 80,000 or so Colorado mmj patients times $25,000 is $2 Billion, not trillion. Still a touch more than chump change.

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rhys jones 3 years, 8 months ago

Oh yeah I forgot -- new cops still wet behind the ears start out at $40K or more, and go up from there -- semi-skilled labor, at best. I know experienced professionals, with years of education and experience, not making nearly that; many are waiting tables, washing dishes, making beds and filing for unemployment. Here again. government takes care of their own, first and foremost -- damn the torpedos and full speed ahead. No wonder the Chinese own us.

For an interesting take on things, I enclose the following link, to a particularly entertaining xkcd Internet comic, this one based on actual Google search results. Enjoy!!

http://xkcd.com/887/

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rhys jones 3 years, 8 months ago

And if I couldn't figure out how to squeeze a new beemer out of $2 billion, that just shows I'm much stupider that your average accountant.

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Bfife 3 years, 8 months ago

Seems to me Mayard is throwing rocks in a glass town.He won"t have to walk on the glass and get his feet cut in Pburg.Don't throw rocks in a glass house unless it's youre neighbors house miles away.

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mmjPatient22 3 years, 8 months ago

There's a lot of people on these comment boards that don't seem to harbor much concern for the amount of glass in their own houses. It's a fairly common theme among the naysayers. A lot of them are just die-hard rock-chucking enthusiasts. And of course there are always those that can't stand to be content unless everyone else around them is just as miserable as they are, even in neighboring towns.

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jerry carlton 3 years, 8 months ago

Scott Where do you get 5 inmates per guard? 14 years ago I worked as a corrections officer in Yakima county Jail in Yakima Washington. We had 650 inmates with a crew of 15 officers. That comes out to 43 inmates per officer. Even adding 15 bosses/secretaries/cook/nurses that would still be 21 inmates per worker. You are usually pretty straight with your facts but I question this one.

Rhys I know you do not like law enforcement even though your brother is a police officer. Do you also dislike firemen? They are employed by the government and are paid about the same as law enforcement. Have you seen how many police officers have been shot to death already this year? Not to mention ones killed in automobile crashes. It is not at all unusual for prison guards to be murdered with a shank stuck in their neck! You do not think people should be paid for risking their lives? I was one of those highly paid professionals that drew unemployment, worked as a corrections officer when I could find no other job and ended up driving a truck for 10 years, when I moved from Washington to Steamboat. People should be paid for risking their lives. The Armed Forces, except for high ranking officers, and law enforcement and firemen are underpaid. My opinion--I am sure yours is different and I am sure neither of us will ever change the others mind.

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Scott Wedel 3 years, 8 months ago

I got it from which was among the first results for "guard prisoner ratio".

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/mar/7/more-prisoners-more-guards/

Data from the Bureau of Prisons (BOP) show that in 1988, the staff-to-inmate ratio was one staff member for every 3.68 inmates. That figure includes both prison guards as well as administrative personnel. In 1997, the staff-to-inmate figure fell to one per 3.57 inmates, but by 2002, that ratio was one staff member for every 4.32 prisoners. The ratio today is slightly higher, one staffer per 4.91 inmates.

Was it a crew of 15 per shift? Or 15 officers employed and 3 or 4 officers per shift?

Prison guards is a tough job with lots of temptations for corruption. So it probably needs to pay enough so that guards are not willing to risk their jobs.

I think some prison guard unions have crossed the line when arguing for more prisons and more enforcement so that there is a need for more prison guards. I have a much more respect for the UMW which has openly stated that their goal is higher paying jobs so fewer people work in the mines.

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scott selby 3 years, 8 months ago

Scott- I think you are missing the point concerning states approaches to providing prisons. There is a huge push by private prison operators for "tough on crime" legislation that produces more inmates/revenue for private prisons. Corrections Corporation of America is one of the worst offenders. They have donated heavily to Republican candidates (including Arizona's current governor) and have pushed the template legislation for immigration reform, as well as, more stringent drug laws. They even donated to Rep Baumgardner's campaign prior to his "fact finding" trip to Arizona. Inmates have also sued the state of Colorado for being moved to private prisons in Oklahoma. It is not simply about public safety, but also who donates to who campaign, so they can make money off of locking people up.

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jerry carlton 3 years, 8 months ago

Scott W. It was a crew of 15 per shift. One Supervisor and 14 workers for 650 inmates. There were 2 other crews of 15, plus maybe 20 others that were "overhead". Captains, Lt.s. nurses, cooks, transport officers, one Secretary, and the Director. That gets us to 65 people or a ratio ot 10 to one so I see where the article's numbers came from. This was a County Jail as I said and I suspect there is a lot more "overhead" personnel in a prison than in a jail. When I first saw the 5 inmates per guard, I thought that meant on a shift a guard would only have 5 inmates to be supervising. My mistake. As I said we each had about 40 inmates to supervise. Yakima County Jail was a pretty safe place to work and I was only assaulted once in 5 years. However, the mental strain of the job was huge. That is why I only lasted 5 years.

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Scott Wedel 3 years, 8 months ago

Scott Shelby, Yes, private prisons contributing to tough on crime and so on is completely immoral. No legislator should ever accept money from a private prison operator because virtually every vote now becomes an apparent conflict of interest.

My point about prison guard unions is that it is to be expected that they advocate for better working conditions, but it is wrong for them to advocate for more prisons and more prison guards.

jlc, With there being 168 hours a week and 3 crews then average crew worked 55 hours a week? So then a lot of overtime? And since that sort of employment study would figure in vacation and so on, and so counts a full time job as like 35 hours a week which means one 24x7 shift takes just about 5 employees. So with 15 per shift that is 75 + 20 overhead gets to about 7 prisoners per guard.

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scott selby 3 years, 8 months ago

Scott W.- It is Selby not Shelby lol. I agree and was not trying to dispute the point that at times unions over reach. My comment was directed more at the earlier post concerning the new "hashish law" in Oklahoma. It truly makes no sense for any state to spend more on prisons than they do on education. At the least it is counter-productive, at the extreme it is immoral and ineffective in combating crime. I re-read my earlier post and should have worded the first sentence differently.

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jerry carlton 3 years, 8 months ago

Scott W. I agree with what you are saying and I understand how you got the $25,000 per year number. The point I am making is that my 15 man crew is not supervising 5 or 7 or even 10 inmates per guard but we are each supervising 40 inmates.

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Rick Pighini 3 years, 8 months ago

The banks in colorado not only can take money from weed stores they also offer credit cards. I heard all that bank stuff bank in December and so I checked into it with friends who set up credit card systems and banks for business. We thought we were going to get rich until we found out it's all bull. So weed stores call any front range store and they will show you how to bank and take credit cards. Must be tough having to close a profitable business. You may need some medicine to get through the depressed tough times. Maynard your an idiot.

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JJ Southard 3 years, 8 months ago

Hey screw....you didn't look far enough my friend. There are no banks in Routt County that will take our business. There is ONE bank in Colorado Springs that will and yes, they will process credit cards and pick up our deposits, for a hefty monthly fee... There is a bank and a couple credit unions only taking local MMJ businesses around Denver, also with a hefty fee.

So, your idea to start that bank or MMJ Credit Union is not a poor idea.

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dogking09 3 years, 8 months ago

Weed is a drug. it is addicting. it is not medicinal. Its no better than any other drug.

Should i go to prison if i smoke it? NO. Should I go to prison if I Drink? NO. Should I go to Prison if i do anything to harm my own person?NO.

Should I be in trouble if i threaten another person....Hell Yeah

Lawrence is just lucky that Maynard is almost 80!!! and not 20 years younger!!! After all Lawrence is hardly big enough to intimidate anyone- except old people Sounds to me Lawrence should lay off Weed and Alchohol - and get a prescript for Zanax.

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mmjPatient22 3 years, 8 months ago

dogking09-

Weed is a plant. It is not addicting, at least not fractionally as addicting as tobacco, some pharmaceuticals & alcohol. It is most certainly medicinal and it is most certainly better than a truck load of other drugs and even pharmaceuticals that are out there right now. And I even have facts, data and sources to back up every word of that.

But no, there was no justification for Lawrence to make threats to anyone else. Granted, Maynard was way off base with what most of his original article was about. But Lawrence should not have made threats.

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dogking09 3 years, 8 months ago

mmjPatient-

Weed is a plant. Tobacco is a plant too, So is Coca. Alchohol is made from plants.

ok.

I dont need your facts, data and sources. I smoked marijuana for 28 years. I grew it for a large portion of that time as well. I dont consider myself an expert on marijuana. I am an expert. I know all too well many of your facts, data and might have even worked for some of your sources. I spent much of my time in 1988 and 1992 fighting for the legalization of Marijuana in Fort Collins, Boulder and Capitol Hill. I smoked marijuana for all the same reasons you do. However, I stopped and started to question the idea that it is medicinally beneficial. First of All, it is addictive.- I know i am not the only person who has got agitated when i had no dope,weed. This fact can be substantiated- and not in the community you would think. I can ask many of my long term smoker friends if they are addicted. Another Case-in point: look at Lawrences' reaction to Maynards post...it really objectively looks like someone freaking out because a slight threat of taking away the drug is evident. His reaction was indicative of an addicts behavior when faced with such a proposition. You say that weed is most certainly medicinal..well yes and no....Cocaine can be medicinal, heroin can be medicinal etc etc etc. The fact of the matter, like the other two examples, the disadvantages far outweigh the advantages for marijuana to be considered to have positive medicinal attributes. The disadvantages of marijuana are lung disease, cancer, less T-cell production etc etc etc...Marijuana contains over 420 chems ( we all know that) but ironically shares over 350 of these chems with CIGS!!!! Listen i could go on and on....but i wont change your mind...so tomorrow morning or today or tonight do a bonghit for me...and commence to spazzing your lungs out...cough up a lung with a nice lil black thingy in the mucus...have a moment of anxiety and increased BAD heart palpitation- leave for the store and come back cuz you forgot your wallet and just consider the 'medicinal value' of marijuana. and then come here and respond back to me. in the meantime while you pack your bowl- understand one thing..I AM STILL IN FAVOR OF LEGALIZATION! every person should have the right to ingest anything or do anything to ones own self without government regulation. If you want to talk the advantages of Hemp..im with you all day long.- but i cant take this legalization for medicinal purposes laying down...its soooo much bs. it really makes us look like a bunch of stoners...know what i mean man? BTW i am current cancer patient....i know the truth between smoking pot and not smoking pot and chemotherapy. oh and btw.....i have lung cancer and never smoked a cig in my life....

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Rick Pighini 3 years, 8 months ago

Dr green jeans there is five banks in ft collins ten in the boulder area ten in the denver area and ten in california. Every front range dispensory that I called which by the way is every listed one in Denver ft Collins boulder and Colorado springs is taking credit cards from Colorado banks so who ever your getting your info from is wrong. Call any front range bank and get the facts . The rate is around seven percent which is a small price to pay considering the increase in business. Oh and by the way Obama was born in the states.

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Rick Pighini 3 years, 8 months ago

Sorry dr they are credit unions but the point is options are available. And the cost is worth it.

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Scott Wedel 3 years, 8 months ago

Oh, credit goes to Bush? I thought after Obama's long form birth certificate was proven to be a forgery that Obama whom had been in constant contact with his father, Bin Laden, was forced to sacrifice his father to preserve their conspiracy that made Obama the POTUS.

I should say "sarcasm", but it is pretty what a bunch of nutters believe.

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hereandthere 3 years, 8 months ago

Gotta love the right wingers. Take credit for everything, responsibility for nothing.

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Eric J. Bowman 3 years, 8 months ago

"Odors? This is what the significant impact is that you are saying is destroying OC? The smell of a plant?"

Who wants to return to work from a slice of pizza at lunch, smelling like marijuana? Let alone grab a slice at a joint which smells no different than if it were skunk-infested? Common sense would seem to suggest lost revenue. Ad-hominem attacks against surrounding-business owners aside, this seems to be a valid concern, and is it really that hard to mitigate the smell, if for no other reason than to be a good neighbor?

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Eric J. Bowman 3 years, 8 months ago

"Maynard doesn't even live in Oak Creek." etc. etc. etc.

At least he has the guts to attach his name to his opinion. He makes a valid point or two, as well, regardless of residency status. I don't understand why Oak Creek can't ban MMJ either -- the town is not responsible for the risks of any local business, so having to move on short notice ought to be part of any MMJ business plan, not the concern of the Town Board. Loveland closed down all 21 of its dispensaries this year, which wouldn't have been done if the revenues generated had outweighed the trouble, i.e. the MMJ industry is more trouble than it's worth even with a large number of operations generating sales tax. Limiting myself to 15 minutes of searching, here's a list of Colorado municipalities with some form of MMJ ban:

Broomfield Castle Rock Erie Superior Lafayette Loveland Grand Junction Larkspur Poncha Springs Glenwood Springs Hayden Kremmling Greeley Mesa County Douglas County Delta County Garfield County Hillrose Aurora Akron Castle Pines De Beque Dinosaur Elizabeth Federal Heights Fountain Granby Hot Sulphur Springs Jamestown La Junta Lake City Lone Tree Olathe Otis Ouray Paonia Ramah Sugar City Windsor Westminster Fairplay Longmont Vail

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Eric J. Bowman 3 years, 8 months ago

"Weed is a plant. It is not addicting, at least not fractionally as addicting as tobacco, some pharmaceuticals & alcohol. It is most certainly medicinal and it is most certainly better than a truck load of other drugs and even pharmaceuticals that are out there right now. And I even have facts, data and sources to back up every word of that."

No, you take liberties with the facts and data, to support your extremist positions. As with any mind-altering substance, pot is subject to abuse. The primary use of pot is to get high, not as medication. Cannabis has only been proven to benefit a limited number of medical conditions: glaucoma, and the neuropathic pain associated with MS and late-stage cancer; these are the only conditions for which cannabis is an approved, doctor-prescribed treatment outside the U.S. Those are facts.

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Eric J. Bowman 3 years, 8 months ago

"Harry J. Anslinger would love you Maynard" etc. etc. etc.

What does HJA have to do with marijuana prohibition in hundreds of other countries? Also, where in his letter did Maynard state an opinion about MMJ? His topic was local governance.

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Eric J. Bowman 3 years, 8 months ago

As to alcohol. I can have a beer without getting drunk; I've never heard of anybody but Bill Clinton smoking pot for the flavor.

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Eric J. Bowman 3 years, 8 months ago

A glass of red wine a day is even considered medicinal:

So I don't understand the argument being put forth, that pot should be unregulated and alcohol banned.

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mmjPatient22 3 years, 8 months ago

Eric-

And you're some sort of pro-cannabis?

Coulda fooled me.

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mmjPatient22 3 years, 8 months ago

And nice anecdotal factotum about Clinton. Lame excuse at a fact, but nice effort.

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mmjPatient22 3 years, 8 months ago

And who exactly is stating that cannabis should be unregulated?

Seems like you might be fabricating a little of your own truth. Perception is everything.

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Scott Wedel 3 years, 8 months ago

mmjpatient22: "Weed is a plant. It is not addicting, at least not fractionally as addicting as tobacco, some pharmaceuticals & alcohol."

eb: No, you take liberties with the facts and data, to support your extremist positions. As with any mind-altering substance, pot is subject to abuse.

Original statement is true. EB's statement is greatly misleading because it fails to note that alcohol and tobacco are both physically addicting and is addicting only as a habit. So mmjpatient22's comment that weed is not fractionally as tobacco, some pharmaceuticals & alcohol is factually true even as EB claims mmjpatient22 is taking liberties with the facts.

Just as with the numerous false statements made about his new neighbors, eb takes liberties with the facts and data, to support his extremist positions

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Eric J. Bowman 3 years, 8 months ago

I love it how I'm called a liar, without my facts being refuted. Fact: marijuana is subject to abuse. Fact: pot is mainly used recreationally, not medicinally. Fact: the claimed medical benefits of cannabis vastly outnumber the proven benefits. Fact: it is not possible to consume marijuana without getting high. All I'm after is honest conversation, and the MMJ debate in CO is hardly an honest one when folks are expected to believe that everyone's medicating now, not gettin' high, and that nobody has ever abused pot. Speaking of Rhode Island, btw:

http://www.projo.com/news/content/DOCTORS_DISCIPLINED_04-19-11_8DNKMS6_v9.1a1f2d5.html

So apparently even doctors can be marijuana addicts, even if by addict we mean mental, rather than the physical addiction associated with cocaine and heroin.

As to my neighbors, about whom I've made no false statements, I'm sure Scott has an explanation for why he drives a license-plate-less, $150,000 AMG V-12 biturbo to the LIFT-UP to get food for his kid -- exactly what I mean by the community subsidizing the startup costs for marijuana businesses. That car is worth twice as much as anyone's house in this neighborhood, but I'm sure Scott will be along to tell me why it's all legit.

Scott likes to come across as a real stickler for following the rules, but his actions betray him when he has no problem with that car being parked on the lawn despite the local nuisance ordinance which forbids parking on the lawn. Hey, Scott, why don't you clean some of the scrap metal out of the Curry parking lot so your tenants don't have to overflow-park their employees in front of my house (even after parking on the lawn and blocking the alley)? Oh, right, those are all just "friends visiting".

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mmjPatient22 3 years, 8 months ago

Eric-

Sorry to keep taking you apart like this, but you almost beg for it. So here goes....

"A glass of red wine a day is even considered medicinal:" and I'll add a few 'etc. etc. etc.' just to make sure you're getting my belittling drift.

Well, yeah. Wine has been known as a digestif for thousands of years. It is also well known as a good blood thinner. There are the obvious antiseptic properties and, of coarse, lest we forget, it's classical use as an intoxicant. Actually, let me re-phrase that; wine is bought/manufactured/distributed for intoxication 99% of the time(the other 1% I'll give to cooking).

Now, sir, allow me to list out(in long form, since you seem to be a fan of it) a spattering of uses for cannabis in the "medicinal" arena, the ones that you take to mocking so quickly:

nausea, vomiting, premenstrual syndrome, unintentional weight loss, insomnia, lack of appetite, spasticity, painful conditions, especially neurogenic pain, movement disorders, glaucoma inflammatory bowel disease, migraines, fibromyalgia, multiple sclerosis, spinal cord injuries by exhibiting antispasmodic and muscle-relaxant properties as well as stimulating appetite. alcohol abuse, amyotrophic lateral sclerosis collagen-induced arthritis, asthma, atherosclerosis, bipolar disorder, colorectal cancer, HIV-Associated Sensory Neuropathy depression, dystonia, epilepsy, digestive diseases, gliomas, hepatitis C, Huntington's disease, leukemia, skin tumors, methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus (MRSA),*** Parkinson's disease, pruritus, post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD), sickle-cell disease, sleep apnea, anorexia nervosa.

Now, I'm completely confident in the fact that I don't even understand some of those conditions. But what I do understand is that MY life is much better with cannabis, than without it. Also, if that's not some sort of medicinal use for cannabis, then I don't know what is.

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mmjPatient22 3 years, 8 months ago

And again, sorry about all this, but............

"Fact: marijuana is subject to abuse. Fact: pot is mainly used recreationally, not medicinally. Fact: the claimed medical benefits of cannabis vastly outnumber the proven benefits. Fact: it is not possible to consume marijuana without getting high."

....and that's what you claim.

If you're interested in a less distorted version of reality, then maybe you should consider the following:

  1. If marijuana is subject to abuse, then what do you have to say about legal alcohol and prescription meds? And then, what makes cannabis so special as to require that it remains illegal.
  2. Regardless of your perceptions of recreation and medicine, if depression is a disorder, do people only have the right to make themselves happy through pharmaceutical pills alone?
  3. That was a pretty hefty list I buffed out up there. Refute it.
  4. You've obviously never had Mexican ditch-weed.(Yes, that one was a joke. Lighten up.)
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Eric J. Bowman 3 years, 8 months ago

"Now, sir, allow me to list out(in long form, since you seem to be a fan of it) a spattering of uses for cannabis..."

Right, that's a pretty good list of the claimed (folk-remedy) benefits of cannabis, which have yet to be proven by evidence. Some of them may be on their way, others, not so much. But, at the present time, the only "on-label" use of medical cannabis preparations is a very short list. So your rebuttal proves the point I was making.

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Eric J. Bowman 3 years, 8 months ago

IOW, nobody wants to criminalize cancer patients using cannabis, but many are dubious that weed's the answer to irritable bowels.

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mmjPatient22 3 years, 8 months ago

Eric-

It was my dearest hope that you'd question the validity of that list. The reason is because it helps me to prove that you're not really interested in the truth. The source for that info is....(drumroll...)....the very same source you used for your alcohol "fact." That's right, wikipedia.

Let me guess, it's only a valid source when it supports your views? I got it now.

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Eric J. Bowman 3 years, 8 months ago

"But what I do understand is that MY life is much better with cannabis, than without it."

That's veering dangerously towards an honest argument -- that you want gettin' high legalized -- until you say this:

"Also, if that's not some sort of medicinal use for cannabis, then I don't know what is."

That's dishonest argument -- don't disguise your real position under the auspices of medicinal use, because the voters of Colorado didn't agree that gettin' high all the time in general is a "healthy" lifestyle when they voted to decriminalize cannabis for a limited number of medical reasons.

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Eric J. Bowman 3 years, 8 months ago

"Let me guess, it's only a valid source when it supports your views? I got it now."

Wikipedia is never a valid source, only a starting point for further inquiry. The article I linked to, unlike yours, hasn't been tagged as disputed-neutrality for years. A far better tool would be the one I actually used when I researched the issue, pubmed.gov, which contains many fascinating studies which have gotten no further than mice, and shows that the only proven medical use in humans is glaucoma, and pain from MS and late-stage cancer. That's why Sativex marketing makes no claims beyond those, as to the efficacy of their product. You seem to mistake wishful thinking for factual evidence.

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mmjPatient22 3 years, 8 months ago

Rationalize your side of the debate however you want. If you're looking for some creative ideas you might want to look up an old screen-name on here "aichempty." You and him would get along just peachy and I'm sure that, together, you two could really come up with some truly awesome stuff.

The long and short of it is that the war on drugs(especially cannabis) is(and always has been) a HUGE waste. Wasting my tax dollars and yours. Obscene, if not outright offensive, amounts of money. We're all still waiting for the reason(s) why. List out the evils of cannabis for us. In long form, if you must.

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mmjPatient22 3 years, 8 months ago

Do you even have a clue why NONE of the tests go past mice?!?!?!

IT'S A SCHEDULE 1 NARCOTIC. IT CAN'T BE "TESTED" ON HUMANS BY DOCTORS.

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Eric J. Bowman 3 years, 8 months ago

It's a fact that cannabis stimulates the appetite. That doesn't make it a cure for anorexia; perhaps it will be, but as yet there aren't any studies proving the wisdom of gettin' high as a cure for a psychological disorder. So it could do more harm than good, when used to stimulate the appetite of an anorexia patient, whereas that concern wouldn't exist when stimulating the appetite of a chemotherapy patient. So all claims of the medical efficacy of cannabis need to be taken with a grain of salt, until they're backed up by actual research. Yes, it's a shame that this country spent so many decades suffocating monkeys instead of doing actual research, but there we are.

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Eric J. Bowman 3 years, 8 months ago

"Do you even have a clue why NONE of the tests go past mice?!?!?!"

What a paranoid. That was the case in the past, but not so today. If you look at the studies on pubmed.gov, there are several which are headed to human testing, and plenty have been there already, without any strings attached to the funding as there were in the past. Looking outside the U.S., even where research has been unfettered for decades, the proof you claim to have just isn't there.

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Eric J. Bowman 3 years, 8 months ago

"We're all still waiting for the reason(s) why. List out the evils of cannabis for us. In long form, if you must."

Where have I said it's evil? Remember, I'm pro-decrim, just in a very different way than you are. Just because I support alcohol being legal, doesn't mean I'm in favor of public intoxication, drunk driving, providing booze to kids or moonshining. You keep insisting that because I'm against public intoxication and drunk driving, etc. that I must be anti-alcohol (by way of comparison).

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mmjPatient22 3 years, 8 months ago

Like I've said before, if you're "pro-decrim" then you could have fooled me.

And as to your 9:22 comment, that's your justification for the war against cannabis? That's your support for the war on drugs? You turn the debate towards alcohol?

What I'm saying is, does not having a system of regulation for cannabis justify the war against it?

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Eric J. Bowman 3 years, 8 months ago

"Like I've said before, if you're 'pro-decrim' then you could have fooled me."

That's because you're a legalization fanatic, who refuses to accept that the full tolerance you seek is still at least a generation away, or that carrying on as if it were already fully tolerated is counterproductive to your own goals. There will likely be a 2012 ballot issue to legalize pot in Colorado. My belief is that, due to the abuses of MMJ, this issue will fail miserably. Where MMJ was on the ballot last November, it mostly took a drubbing -- you know the winds have shifted when Jamestown, the clandestine-growing capital of Colorado, bans MMJ. If the industry could refrain from carrying on like Aloha's, or growing boatloads of weed in residential neighborhoods, or stinking up adjacent businesses and the like, such a ballot measure might stand a chance. As it is, the backlash is well-earned, and the voters will most likely reiterate their previous position -- decriminalization for medical purposes only. Politics is the art of the possible; what you're after is not, in the current political climate.

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Rick Pighini 3 years, 8 months ago

Who cares boys legal or not you can get pot on any street corner in America and use it or Any other drug for what ever you believe it is helping you cope with. The point is let's let the free people of America make their own choices on what they believe is best for them and let them live with their decisions as long as it doesn't hurt others. If it's going to be medicine then maybe it should only be available at the pharmacy. My vote is out of sight out of mind. It's was easy enough to get in the years prior to all this bull so how ever it ends who cares.

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rhys jones 3 years, 8 months ago

Well, I see you boys have kept up a steady rap in my absence. Kudos!!

I just have 2 points to make: One: I medicate to relieve tension and stimulate my appetite, skinny nerd that I am. Plus occasional chronic pain in the pelvis I broke 25 years ago. It's just coincidental that one of the side effects is a most pleasant feeling.

Two: I'll put my "Mexican ditch weed" up against your kind bud, buzz per hit, ANY DAY. You kind-bud snobs kill me. Sure, it looks and smells great, if it'd just WORK great. Give me the Sinaloan Cartel pot, with its tiger-striped seeds, magic for next year. I can't find that in Colorado any more, not with the advent of the dispensaries. One of many reasons I temporarily relocated to Arizona, so my medication costs about 1/8 as much. Go ahead, re-outlaw it; I like the shwag better anyway!!

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dogking09 3 years, 8 months ago

I just laugh when i read that marijuana is a cure for depression....lmao and all the other bs...hey lets just get high and make it up as we go along. Legalize Marijuana!!! I am all for it. But stop the bs....it AINT Medicinal....helluba good excuse...but it dont hold water in the bong. Like i stated before: I smoked for 28 years...you cant lie to me. If you all are worried about your health one of the last things you would do is SMOKE pot./ And i dont want my kids or other kids having this bs excuse so you, my brother and his friends and my old uncle RatDog can all get high..... get real.

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rhys jones 3 years, 8 months ago

Hey, I was depressed, before I found marijuana -- cured me right up.

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rhys jones 3 years, 8 months ago

No wait, that was Mary Lou, had me depressed. Never mind. Anyway, pot helped.

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hereandthere 3 years, 8 months ago

I smoked pot for 28 years and now see the errors of my ways. I smoked pot for 28 years, so I'm an expert on it's effects! Legalize it, I don't care, but your a fool if you use it. MMJ is b.s., I still got headaches! Anybody else not buying this guys baloney.

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rhys jones 3 years, 8 months ago

Fixed my warts too. And that's not even on the list.

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rhys jones 3 years, 7 months ago

Please let me explain briefly the weirdness with you are currently confronted, this demented set of genes. My Dad's cousin is Tom Paxton, a folk singer of note some of you may have heard of. His aunt Clara, my grandmother, was a rocket scientist for NASA, working out the math and trajectories and such on many of the early Gemini and Apollo programs, when she wasn't teaching school in Oklahoma. So that's a weird mix already. My Mom's side isn't any better, mostly lawyers and engineers. I inherited a strong computer gene, and am a prisoner of numbers, in my mind.

My minor in college was Psychology, as I remain fascinated by the many and various ways the neurons and synapses can fire and interact to produce each of our unique experiences. Each one of is more different than Mars is from Jupiter. There is a whole universe with each of us, and we each experience life in our own unique way.

Marijuana is like a fine wine for the mind, each strain imparting its own delicious combination of neural enhancement, just which synapses it affects, or gates it opens, if you will. Very similar to a computer geek's and-gates, or-gates, nand-gates, and nor-gates, there is an infinite numbers of combinations which can be arranged. Gold Columbian is very different from Maui Wowie, each with its own fine flavor and nuance.

So imagine the time I was debugging one of my early trainer programs, in COBOL, trying to follow this weird new logic, and having trouble with it. Squid barracks-mate makes me get high with him, over my protests, and when I returned my attention to my computer problems, suddenly a light came on, I UNDERSTOOD it, for the first time ever. New worlds opened up; I realized the possibilities. Suddenly the legal status took a back seat, as this stuff is RIGHT, at least for me. That was 37 years ago, although I actually started, on a purely recreational basis, four years earlier. Ain't killed me yet, but an occasional brush with the law slowed me down once or twice.

I don't care what anybody thinks or says, I'll live my life how I want, or they can throw me in jail. I don't harm anybody; indeed, I try to help as much as possible. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

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rhys jones 3 years, 7 months ago

Indeed, the THC molecule is a wonder itself, unique in nature. Each strain has its own genetics, those little arms and rwists, which in turn affect the synapses in their very different and unique ways, producing a unique high. Similar to wine, each flavor has its own subtle and distinct nuance, on a cerebral level. Whenever I see "scientific studies," I wonder What kind were they using? It makes a BIG difference. We shouldn't be studying IF; that's a given, to the majority of us, at least the elections say. We should be studying WHICH: Indica or Sativa? Which do you prefer? Is one safer?

And WHO has the right to deny this pleasure to anybody, and WHY, for God's sake?

And with this last digression, I will surrender the mike and return the discussion to the panel, my depression held tenuously at bay by my dwindling stash. Cheerio!!

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JJ Southard 3 years, 7 months ago

Hey Screw, sorry for the delayed response...I don't look at these comments boards often. Those "Front Range" banks will only take "local business" only in their respective county. Looks into it. There is ONE BANK in Colorado Springs that will take our business. The fees are VERY high. More than seven percent. We have chosen not to take credit cards for many reasons...mostly because people are not responsible with them and we sell a prodcut that is easily abused. We are doing just fine not taking credit cards. Mind your own business.

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JJ Southard 3 years, 7 months ago

I just love the self-entitlement that goes hand-in with a great deal of people in this region. So many have this, "I know how you should be doing this" attitude... "Don't you know who I am??" LOL When someone has given a moment to stand in my shoes, take in all the circumstances that direct my decisions....only then do I consider there opinions or directions worth a damn in my life. All you rubberneckers can keep blabbing. I will continue doing what I do.

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Rick Pighini 3 years, 7 months ago

Hey dr. It's all our business and the Reason I know about the cc situation is because I'm involved in that business and was trying to sign up Colorado stores when I heard the bs about how banks don't take weed money due to the Feds. So you're wrong not to mention most people in today's world use debit cards which are credit card like things that take money out of ones personnel account. Anyway I really don't care if you take them or not but all the others are on their way so enjoy your cash only drug dealing operation. You may want to put the pipe down every so often. You know when it gets too hot to touch it's time to take a break.

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dogking09 3 years, 7 months ago

Listen if you really think its a health benefit, whatever. You are so full of bs you cant see the forest for the trees-

sell me the idea that inhaling smoke is beneficial. selll me the idea that inhaling 3x the tar in a cig is beneficial.

The IDEA that you try to legalize weed through the avenue of medicinal purposes is a joke. and, lets say that you sell me on the idea....why is so easy for so many to get a dope card????

Legalize weed for what it is...a drug. fine with me. Medicine? whatever dude.

Get your mouth outta the bong, your head in the real world and your ass off the couch and do something worthwhile...and see what that cures. BTW do you know the stats on suicide and marijuana???....look it up yourself. its definetly not a cure for depression.
And the idea that marijuana has ANY benefit for asthma is such a joke its egregious

And one last remark to JJ...... DrGreenGenes (JJ Southard) says...

I just love the self-entitlement that goes hand-in with a great deal of people in this region

arent you a southerner????? talk about a self entitlement region of the country...and you brought yours right here with ya...( i dont like your comment about us in this region...if you dont like it go back to where your from)

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JJ Southard 3 years, 7 months ago

LOL... People everywhere are self entitled. It's the American way.

If got a suggestion to help there, screw....feel free.

I am not wrong. Call all the credit unions you know of and ask if they take Routt cty businesses....let alone MMC's.

Put the pipe down? That's all you could come up with? LOL

Who are you dogking? And how do you know me?

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JJ Southard 3 years, 7 months ago

Btw screw....much to our own chagrins...we will be accepting credit cards soon. Agreed, business will increase. Credit/Debit Cards are also the American Way.

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JJ Southard 3 years, 7 months ago

Btw, LOL dogking... The research for cannabis's benefits outweigh your ridiculous, head-in-sand, approach to life. Thanks for proving how much of an idiot you are. All you people think is that we smoke marijuana all day and they we are just a bunch of stoners....go ahead. That's all you got?

Marijuana helps loosen the siezing surface of the lungs when patients with asthma are feeling a siezure coming on.. Its proven with loads of research. Depression is NOT a qualifying condition, so keep barking up that pointless tree... The Dept of Health comes up with the qualifying conditions after scrutinous research. And they proved a LONG time ago that it is a total lie that they ever said 3x the amount of "tar" in marijuana smoke. There is actually NO TAR. Most patients vaporize the meds anyways, which is 100% safe. Look it up...and don't look up the propoganda-ized articles.

But, whether you thinks its medicine or not, doggybag, the people with the conditions, who voted to have a CHOICE, will continue to come get the meds that work.

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JJ Southard 3 years, 7 months ago

The American Medical Association accepts marijuana as medicine.

We don't need anyone elses approval.

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Cooke 3 years, 7 months ago

JJ: The problem with MMJ that I would venture to say that most people see is the ridiculous abuse. There is medical benefit…it is proven. But your industry seems to cater to frauds. The ease and fraud of getting a card, the abuse within the system…your industry lacks all credibility because it didn’t self-regulate when the state failed to put measures into place to assure legitimacy. Operations like Alohas destroy the credibility of your entire industry.

And simply saying (as is often put forward by pro mmj folks on these boards) that there is prescription drug abuse too does nothing to further your argument. Everyone knows there is prescription abuse, that doesn’t make it OK; equating yourself to a broken system is not wise.

AND simply saying that the town is full of bars and liquor stores and alcohol is way worse than weed is silly. Alcohol is legal and not touted (aside from the glass or red) as a medicine. The only way that argument would work would be is your industry ditched the transparent façade of “medical” and was pushing for legalization for its recreational benefits.

I don’t think that most people are entitled; rather, I think that most people can call a spade and spade. If you want the industry to be taken seriously, take all the 18-24 year old boys out of the system. When people like me are stuck in a gondola with CMC jibber boys getting high and talking about making it to Rocky Mountain Remedies before it closes to get some more “medicine”, it does nothing to help your cause.

Oh yeah, dogking: Southerners are self-entitled? Have you spent much time in the South?

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JJ Southard 3 years, 7 months ago

Agreed the fight should not be to ban medical marijuana, but to make more strict guidelines to get a card, or legalize it for 21 & up just like booze. Period.

But, when someone has a card, we will not be denying them service. It'd be like a bar having a 21 year old clearly legal at their bar, and saying, "they look too young and irresponsible, sorry please leave". That does not happen anywhere. Nor do the gas stations or smoke shops deny a babyfaced 18year old a pack of smokes.

I agree, the dipsh*ts in the gondola should not be acting like that.

A day will come soon though, where it is legal, and those chumps in the gondola will freely yap about it, and you will have to put up with it, just as if they were yapping about the last beer party they went to.

Oh...and about me being a southerner, I did spend my school-age days in Georgia. I was born in Michigan. Left the south as soon as I could. Didn't like it very much.

I'll clarify on the "self entitlement" generalization I spewed, to the offense of some... Maybe it's not that "most" people are self-entitled, just some..too many though. And I'll remove "this region" and replace it with "this country".

Feel better?

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Scott Wedel 3 years, 7 months ago

So Sherlock, you've figured out that marijuana is not like penicillin? You are shocked that it has been legalized for those able to get a doctor's recommendation when it is still illegal according to federal law? Are you really that naive?

Alcohol had allowed medical uses during prohibition. It was largely a sham then as well.

With all the problems of prescription drug abuse, no intelligent person expected "medical" marijuana to not be abused by some.

The real objective of "medical" marijuana was a decriminalization step and providing a framework for regulation. The arguments for medical marijuana is not about proven medical benefits, but about personal freedom and most certainly about allowing people with debilitating conditions to legally do what makes them feel better.

And now, since it is well recognized that marijuana prohibition has fundamentally failed to limit supply or usage, it is generally recognized that mmj is a way to take smuggling and distributing marijuana away from the gangs.

If you look at research into the topic then you consistently find that experts such as the RAND group or the British equivalent of the FDA declaring that marijuana is significantly less harmful than alcohol or tobacco. Alcohol and tobacco both directly kill many thousands of people and are physically addictive. Marijuana does not directly kill people and is not physically addictive. Marijuana is habit forming addictive, like blogging.

So the public or policymakers in supporting mmj is not suggesting that the average person go out and start using mmj to feel better, but is recognizing that marijuana should not be treated like a dangerous highly illegal drug.

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Cooke 3 years, 7 months ago

Who are you talking to, Scott? "Sherlock"? What a mature way to address a debate. I am trying to figure out if your tantrum is directed at me or at JJ? I clearly state in the post above, "There is medical benefit...it is proven." Your prescription drug statement does not address the issue of equating the abuses of both as a strength of argument. The gist of my post was this: MMJ is too abused to be taken seriously by the general public. People's attacks are a result of that abuse, not necessarily of the medical efficacy. Try reading more carefully next time…

JJ: I would welcome legalization. Like I said, call a spade a spade. I would not expect you to deny service; however, pharmacists will deny drugs to patients if they expect fraud or forgery, but they too are constrained by a doctor's prescription. As for Georgia, having spent way too much time there myself, I couldn’t agree more!

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JJ Southard 3 years, 7 months ago

Good thing is, all people intending to purchase meds at an MMC are required to have a state issued MMJ Card along with picture ID. The pharmacist must scrutinize the handwriting of a doctor on the written scripts...that must be a pain in the arse.

Cooke: Marijuana has been legalized for "medical" purposes, because it has value in that realm... Agreed, it also has value in the recreational realm. This is the confusion. Sick people don;t have time to wait for all the "Maynard Short's" of America to die off. They needed the medicinal value of cannabis NOW. The problem is that marijuana was every made illegal in the first place...let alone scheduled along with hard synthetic drugs.

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Eric J. Bowman 3 years, 7 months ago

"Sick people don't have time to wait for all the 'Maynard Short's' of America to die off."

What an ugly comment. Pointing out that the Town Board isn't representing the views of the electorate, really has nothing to do with sick people dying.

"They needed the medicinal value of cannabis NOW."

Which is why the voters decriminalized six plants and two ounces, for medicinal use, rather than forcing those patients to wait for the day when their doctors can prescribe them Sativex (like in any other country). The voters didn't decriminalize the CMC jibbers on the ganjala, patient cards notwithstanding.

Let's not muddy the debate, though, by assuming anyone who thinks the MMJ industry is inappropriate for Oak Creek, is therefore opposed to the MMJ industry, is therefore opposed to truly sick folks having decriminalized access to pot.

"Agreed the fight should not be to ban medical marijuana, but to make more strict guidelines to get a card, or legalize it for 21 & up just like booze."

But until such time as it is legalized, or the guidelines and enforcement have been worked out, it doesn't make sense for a town with a part-time police department to be screwing around with anything beyond the six plants and two ounces the constitution allows. So the fight still isn't about "banning MMJ" so much as banning the dubious industry that's sprung up around it, particularly since the regulation and enforcement aspect of state decriminalization efforts is still a federal crime:

http://truthout.org/whats-behind-obama-administrations-about-face-regarding-medical-marijuana/1304694586

That proverbial "things could change at the stroke of a pen" we were talking about the other week? Guess what...

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Cooke 3 years, 7 months ago

It sounds like you and I are on the same page JJ. I appreciate the discourse.

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Eric J. Bowman 3 years, 7 months ago

"And now, since it is well recognized that marijuana prohibition has fundamentally failed to limit supply or usage, it is generally recognized that mmj is a way to take smuggling and distributing marijuana away from the gangs."

Yeah, no shady characters around MMJ at all. You're playing fast and loose with the facts you aren't linking to, so I don't believe your "generally recognized" contention. What is "generally recognized" is that the legitimate medical use of cannabis wouldn't amount to enough volume to affect the recreational market. What amendment 20 proposed wasn't getting the gangs out of smuggling, but keeping patients away from gangs by allowing them to grow six plants.

One thing I can say from firsthand experience, is the assertion that banning MMJ dispensaries will drive commercial cultivation into the neighborhoods is B.S. because that's what's happening where dispensaries are allowed -- safety in numbers, presumably. I, for one, would prefer to leave the trafficking in the hands of the cartels (not that I entirely believe that bit of propaganda), rather than seeing shady characters with commercial grow operations in residential areas pretending to be legitimate businessmen.

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Scott Wedel 3 years, 7 months ago

Amendment 20 has a list of conditions for which it allows people to claim a need for medical marijuana. During the campaign it was noted by the opponents that this list of ailments lacked solid medical research showing that mmj was effective. It was also noted by opponents that the list contained ailments that could be faked. Thus, Colorado voters approved mmj knowing it was not being limited to circumstances where there was a verifiable medical condition where it had been shown to be effective medicine. So Colorado voters ignored the argument that it was medically a sham and approved Amendment 20.

Irony of the situation is that Colorado voters did not expect dispensaries because Amendment 20 only specifically allowed personal growing, possession and use, and specifically allowed patients to have an affirmative defense to growing and owning more than the 6 plants, 2 ounces limit if they can show the need for more. Amendment 20 does not mention dispensaries.

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Eric J. Bowman 3 years, 7 months ago

I'm just not as smart as some of the folks here; I can't deduce residency or gang affiliation from a mug shot, nor can I determine that the voters of CO intended to give their tacit endorsement to full legalization when passing amendment 20 regardless of the ongoing backlash.

California already went through all these same arguments, and prop 19 failed. Turns out the voters there really did only mean to approve medical decriminalization. The voters of Colorado are speaking right now, and if they really did mean to endorse full legalization, they sure coulda fooled me with all those MMJ bans.

I note again that an affirmative defense is like, "yeah I shot him, he was comin' at me with a knife," i.e. justifiable homicide -- not up-front decriminalization of more than six plants and two ounces, a defense that's negated by any local ordinance restricting MMJ to six plants and two ounces. And that it's no surprise that Scott would have us believe that full legalization is already here, given the unlicensed nature of the operation he's sanctioning.

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Eric J. Bowman 3 years, 7 months ago

Now that we do have dispensary ads, I'm surprised that nobody markets eco-herb grown by harnessing the light of the sun. In terms of sustainability, the MMJ industry ranks dead last by using nonrenewable resources to grow a weed, even organically.

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Scott Wedel 3 years, 7 months ago

Hmm, you say you don't know what Colorado voters intended when they passed Amendment 20, but you know what California intended when they didn't pass Amendment 19. Amendment 19 did not pass in either Humboldt or Mendocino counties because they saw Amendment 19 causing local growers to be wiped out by large commercial operations.

BTW, do you realize that if any of your statements were true about your neighbors commercially growing then all you have to do is prove it to get them arrested because they are not licensed to commercially grow?

Of course, after your previous statements about no one ever going to live there that was proved false when they moved in, and your claims of hundreds of plants which my inspection showed to be off by hundreds of plants and they were growing what is stated on their Colorado MMJ licenses then there is no particular reason to believe any of your claims.

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Eric J. Bowman 3 years, 7 months ago

"BTW, do you realize that if any of your statements were true about your neighbors commercially growing then all you have to do is prove it to get them arrested because they are not licensed to commercially grow?"

I don't have to do anything, these folks are bringing heat down on themselves (and you) without any help from me. You noticed I wasn't at the MMJ work session, this paper reported plenty of folks were there to specifically complain about your fourplex. Now that ACET has an opening in their schedule (judging from the coke-bust article), I'm sure someone will look at the power consumption for that building, and doubt you on that basis. I only saw 9,000 more watts of lighting go in there this week (the FedEx deuce-and-a-half is a pretty conspicuous delivery vehicle), but there you go -- when the narcs go looking for a paper trail, they'll find it without my help, and already have probable cause due to the dozens of complaints.

"Of course, after your previous statements about no one ever going to live there that was proved false when they moved in..."

My previous statements are still true, you've changed the use of your building away from residential four-plex. I've stated that the back unit, which I used to rent, only has plants living in it -- this remains true, and your previous claims that there would be two occupants per unit remains a big, fat lie. The problem folks are having with the Town Board right now, extends to the fact that by not imposing any consequences on you for not going through planning, they're taking the teeth out of the new land-use code.

"your claims of hundreds of plants which my inspection showed to be off by hundreds of plants..."

Your inspection clearly showed more plants than you claimed would be growing in there, in more rooms than you claimed would have plants growing in them. I know because at the time you made those claims, anyone could look through the windows (and indeed, couldn't help but, after dark) and see that you were lying. What people were also complaining about were the multiple pallets of fertilizer (the Sheriff talked about those at the board meeting I went to), regular deliveries of large amounts of growing apparatus, and all the other things which simply don't square with growing for personal use.

Like the V-12 biturbo Mercedes. Clearly, someone's expecting to come into some serious money, soon -- with the price of premium gas these days, a round-trip to Steamboat would be a $20 affair in that car, and that's without factoring in registration and insurance fees, thousands of dollars for new tires, or that it's the only car in town Rocko can't service. Maybe there's a reasonable explanation, but I can't imagine that questions won't get asked about that, and again that has nothing to do with what I've posted here weeks after the complaints started rolling in to law enforcement about the car, and none of the complaints LIFT-UP has gotten about that came from me either.

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Eric J. Bowman 3 years, 7 months ago

Anyway, I never said my neighbors were growing hundreds of plants, I threw that number out there in a hypothetical while debating a related issue, and Scott seized on it with that assumption. I haven't said how many plants I personally saw, only that Scott must have seen just as many on his inspection. Scott hasn't said how many plants his tenants need to invoke an affirmative defense for, but if it's for as many plants as I saw, then I assume the doctor who OK'd it will get busted along with everyone else. The only thing I'll agree to testify to in court, is Scott's knowledge and involvement.

Once again, it's laughable to the point of absurdity to think that anything I've written here isn't well-known to local law enforcement, whether one believes I have anything to do with that or not. We're talking about the highest-profile, most-conspicuous pot grower ever, who's been racking up evictions and moving violations and a constant stream of complaints right down to parking on the lawn for months, now, from an ever-expanding list of complainants. Yeah, I'm his problem for writing about it on this forum...

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jk 3 years, 7 months ago

" I'm surprised that nobody markets eco-herb grown by harnessing the light of the sun. In terms of sustainability, the MMJ industry ranks dead last by using nonrenewable resources to grow a weed, even organically"

Eric, Wait weren't you the one whining, complaining, and referencing the law as to how this is supposed to be a closet operation? Well what do you want??

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Eric J. Bowman 3 years, 7 months ago

"Eric, Wait weren't you the one whining, complaining, and referencing the law as to how this is supposed to be a closet operation? Well what do you want??"

Being kept from full view of the public, i.e. out of residential neighborhoods, doesn't mean pot can't be grown outdoors (where trespassing would have to occur) or in greenhouses (which are usually opaque). Or that indoor grow operations can't be wind and solar powered. Just pointing out the greatest irony of the CO MMJ scene is the carbon footprint.

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jk 3 years, 7 months ago

"Being kept from full view of the public, i.e. out of residential neighborhoods, doesn't mean pot can't be grown outdoors (where trespassing would have to occur) or in greenhouses (which are usually opaque)."

Since It's saturday night, I should appreciate you leading me on that dance around what you meant. Thanks!

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JJ Southard 3 years, 7 months ago

Good Lord, Eric Bowman & Scott Wedel need to get a room.

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mmjPatient22 3 years, 7 months ago

There goes ol "pro-decrim" Eric on his quest to get cannabis legalized.

Great job Eric! Keep up the good work.

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Eric J. Bowman 3 years, 7 months ago

Do you have anything to contribute beyond what a four-year-old would find amusing? Or have you destroyed so many brain cells with your drug habits, that insults are all you're capable of any more? A mind is a terrible thing to waste, for some of y'all it's too late to help.

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Eric J. Bowman 3 years, 7 months ago

"There goes ol "pro-decrim" Eric on his quest to get cannabis legalized."

My quest is to get commercial pot growing the hell out of my neighborhood. Only insecure jackasses see this as a threat to their ability to get high while lying about being "sick".

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muck 3 years, 7 months ago

So Eric have you confronted these people? Not Scott, but did you walk over and ask them if they had the right to grow "X" amount of plants? Did you ever FIND EVIDENCE? This is not an attack!!!!!! I mean ask them to explain things to you? HARD CORE EVIDENCE? It seems that the cops have not done a thing about it? It seems that if you went over and talked with them you could find out a few things and SAVE taxpayers some money and maybe answer some questions that concern you? Just wondering?

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muck 3 years, 7 months ago

Medical Marijuana Registry Program Update (as of March 31, 2011)

In the November 2000 general election, Coloradoans passed Amendment 20, and the Colorado Department of Public Health and Environment (CDPHE) was tasked with implementing and administering the Medical Marijuana Registry program. In March of 2001, the State of Colorado Board of Health approved the Rules and Regulations pertaining to the administration of the program, and on June 1st, 2001, the Registry began accepting and processing applications for Registry Identification cards.

Statistics of the registry include:

137,556 new patient applications have been received to date since the registry began operating in June 2001. The total number of patients who currently possess valid Registry ID cards is 123,890.
Sixty-nine percent of approved applicants are male. The average age of all patients is 40. Currently forty patients are minors (under the age of 18). Fifty-six percent of patients reside in the Denver-metro area (Adams, Arapahoe, Boulder, Broomfield, Denver, Douglas & Jefferson counties), with the remainder of patients residing in counties throughout Colorado.
Patients on the registry represent all the debilitating conditions covered under Amendment 20. Severe pain accounts for 94 percent of all reported conditions; muscle spasms account for the second-most reported condition at 21 percent. Note that percentages do not add up to 100 percent because some patients have more than one condition.
Sixty-three percent of patients have designated a primary care-giver (someone who has significant responsibility for managing the care of a patient with a debilitating medical condition). More than 1,100 different physicians have signed for patients in Colorado.

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muck 3 years, 7 months ago

1,100 different physicians? Humm that is alot of docs saying MMJ has legitimate use according to the Colorado Department of Health. Average age is a 39 year old male not some 20ish year old kid. Very informative info for all!

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Eric J. Bowman 3 years, 7 months ago

"So Eric have you confronted these people?"

No, but I have talked to their employees, which reinforces the notion that this is not a personal-use grow operation -- if you're growing for personal use, you can't hire folks to tend your plants; if you can't grow your own plants, you can designate a caregiver. Combine that with the car, and a dozen other dead giveaways (that FedEx deuce-and-a-half was here again yesterday) I haven't mentioned, and you'd have to be an idiot to believe the "personal use" cover story. Just how many pounds of herb can one person consume in a year, anyway?

As to your gripe about taxes, notice I haven't advocated for busting anyone -- my solution is an ordinance restricting MMJ patients to six plants and two ounces; when passed, these commercial operations will get the hint and move on without anyone needing to get busted. It's a shame that Town Board will force this to come up as a special election, which isn't cheap, but it's quite obvious that they can't be trusted to act in the best interests of the town on this one, so the issue needs to be put directly to the voters.

"It seems that the cops have not done a thing about it?"

I wouldn't know; I assume that if the cops have the place under surveillance, they wouldn't tell me about it. But yeah, 99.9% of the time, these folks would've been busted already -- what the problem seems to be here, is our Town Board doesn't want Lance harassing any MMJ patients, or ceding his jurisdiction to ACET. IOW, no licenses needed in Oak Creek because we don't bother with enforcement because our Town Board has de-facto legalized pot here. Which sucks for those operations we have licensed, apparently they didn't need to bother; there aren't any repercussions for Mary's not mitigating the smell as their permit requires, either.

So Oak Creek is now a free-for-all pot-growing haven, with a Town Board willing to run interference with local law enforcement to protect mostly-illegal cottage industries which engage in a federal crime. And if you change the use of a building without going through planning, no worries there either, as long as it has to do with pot the Town Board just won't care. I've told Dick that as long as this is the case, he can forget about me buying this house (which we were discussing as recently as two months ago) because I won't be staying. If Oak Creek prefers dope growers to Internet entrepreneurs, that's what Oak Creek will get.

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Eric J. Bowman 3 years, 7 months ago

"[D]id you walk over and ask them if they had the right to grow 'X' amount of plants?"

Nobody has a right to grow more than six plants, which is what I want clarified by local ordinance. See, I don't give a crap if someone's doctor has signed off on more, or how many patients live at an address, or anything else -- here, the limit should be six plants and two ounces per residence, no matter what. Otherwise it's impossible to determine whether hundreds of plants is OK or not, without requiring the cops to spend all their time at a computer terminal navigating state databases. I don't want commercial pot growing in my neighborhood, this includes caregivers, so six plants per residence -- no more.

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Eric J. Bowman 3 years, 7 months ago

"1,100 different physicians? Humm that is alot of docs saying MMJ has legitimate use according to the Colorado Department of Health. Average age is a 39 year old male not some 20ish year old kid. Very informative info for all!"

Useless stats which do nothing to disprove my explanations: most of those physicians are recommending MMJ to seriously-ill patients, but it's a small number responsible for most (no, I'm not going to search for a link, but this has been reported) MMJ recommendations; and average age for the approved conditions is likely much higher -- the average age of MMJ patients likely would be, too, once all the twentysomething fakers are removed. At some point the state will get around to enforcement, culling those doctors whose practices exist solely to profit off of MMJ recommendations by routinely exceeding the six-plant limit.

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jk 3 years, 7 months ago

" If Oak Creek prefers dope growers to Internet entrepreneurs, that's what Oak Creek will get."

So are you speaking of yourself here Eric? Are you the Internet entrepreneur? How much money has your entrepreneurship chipped in to the local economy?? I'm not so sure this is a valid threat.

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dogking09 3 years, 7 months ago

jk, you arrogant pig. Just how much has the dope growing chipped into our local economy???? (how much have YOU pitched in???)i sure havent seen a difference and considering im a LONG time local..i think i would observe the difference. This town needs many more Internet entrepreneurs than it needs dope smokers like you. You are probably the same guy who gassed up, got groceries and went out to eat in Steamboat -before you came home to O.C. -. Listen, everyone can and should be able to grow the mandated amount....NO MORE...we dont need no commercial grow houses here. And BTW am i understanding this right that Scott W. is harboring an illegal grow operation in his place of business? if i misunderstood i apologize- however if he knowingly is harboring this criminal action something should be done. Listen, 90% of you Pro Marys and pro commercial weedce peeps are DEFINETLEY new to the area....a bunch of newbies who moved into OUR community....you need to stand down. This town doesnt mind alot of stuff, but your trying to force an ideal upon this community and its THAT notion that is the underlying contention. The long timers here dont smoke any more or any less or any different weeed than they did before ya'all moved here...Keep your damn crap to yourselves...grow in your closet and shut up. we didnt say anything before...we just dont want YOU telling us what to do with our town...and if you dont beleive me you can wait until the election. I agree with JJ statement to a point..it will be a landslide....but not the way you think.. but whatever.....i really didnt care until you mandated that you had a RIGHT to exist here....sometimes daddy gives you somethin and then daddy turns right around and takes it away....too bad- sorry....quit your whining...smoke a bowl...grow some really kind bud in your closet and stop makin waves...You newcomers have no idea how this town has ran for decades...just smoke your weed - or whatever it is you want to do and just go along with the flow...its alot easier here.......on everyone and btw all you all need to start spending your money in this town...especially about 75 percent of the people i eye going into marys...never seen em before,,,,dont really wanna see them again...hell if it was sucha boon to our economy...the last place to go out of business woulda been the convience store and munchies....so as with most of your arguements- its time to chng the bong water....and wave goodbye to Marys..sorry JJ real estate is coming back......in Florida.

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dogking09 3 years, 7 months ago

Statistics of the registry include:

137,556 new patient applications have been received to date since the registry began operating in June 2001. The total number of patients who currently possess valid Registry ID cards is 123,890.

This is an incredibly interesting statistic. So since June 2001 137,000 people have applied for a weed card...and the total number of patients who possess dope cards is 123,000...?? Wow....Thats a 90% rate of prescriptions.

Wow, you guys really do suffer?! But then again i dont see that many sick people...??hmmm that Weed must be really really really good medicine....it works so well i cant even tell your sick...heck, you just kinda look..well slow..and a lil stupid. but thats ok...im sure a lil more medicine will cure that.......right?Stoner.

Weed as Medicine...lmfao Weed as Drug...!!!!!Never heard Willie sing that the bong cured his 'Roids- Legalize the Dope - fine with me

Hemp as dynamic alternative to numerous problems....AMEN

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rhys jones 3 years, 7 months ago

dog -- learn how to spell, then punctuate, then type, then tell me about stupid. If you can tell me what an HTTP string is, let alone what it does, maybe I'll listen, but not likely. I'm about sick of the "stupid" argument, from people who can't even type. Drunk.

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Scott Wedel 3 years, 7 months ago

"And BTW am i understanding this right that Scott W. is harboring an illegal grow operation in his place of business?"

Well, that is the lie that some have been making. The lie that started off being hundreds of plants and no one would live there. The lie that that it was still a commercial grow operation continued even after they personally moved in. The lie that continued even after there was nothing close to hundreds of plants there.

And any entrepreneur with any aspirations of hiring anyone should be able to recognize that some times you pay others if it helps you save money. While I do not know that sort of detail of their personal lives, it seems perfectly reasonable to me for someone saving money by growing their own to pay for some help to grow more effectively.

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Scott Wedel 3 years, 7 months ago

And apparently Eirc Bowman has just admitted to operating an internet business in a residential neighborhood without ever applying for the needed land use change to allow commercial use in a residential neighborhood.

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rhys jones 3 years, 7 months ago

I just spent over an hour reviewing Steamboat's Community Development Code (zoning) and while I do not purport to be an attorney, I saw nothing in there to preclude somebody from operating an Internet business from their home, providing they don't have more than one employee AND one customer on site at any given time, in the pursuit of their business, REGARDLESS of zoning. If somebody can cite specific code to the contrary, I am all ears, as I have been doing exactly that for over 10 years. "Commercial Use" simply does not apply, since there are no parking, garage, noise, or other issues normally associated with retail or other service businesses. Please correct me if I am mistaken, preferably with statutes, not opinions.

My other comment relates to "stupid" allegations above. I have been programming computers in this town for 25 years, designing websites for 10. During this time I have come to know a great proportion of people in the business here, worked with and for several, and become acquainted with many more. While I don't know everybody in the biz, I also don't know ONE who does not partake in the evil weed at least occasionally. I think that shoots big holes in the "stupid" argument, making it just a stupid argument. Your computer is most likely repaired and maintained by a stoner. If you could fix it yourself, you wouldn't take it to the dopers. And yes, I circulate the money I make doing it all over town.

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Scott Wedel 3 years, 7 months ago

Rhys Jones, Apparently, somehow you missed that this was happening in Oak Creek.

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rhys jones 3 years, 7 months ago

And what's the difference between making jewelry in your home, and making websites? Are you telling me home-based businesses are illegal?

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rhys jones 3 years, 7 months ago

I've even spent money I made in my Steamboat home at Chelsea's. How do you like my business now?

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Scott Wedel 3 years, 7 months ago

Rhys, OC land use code is pretty poorly written. So any business, however few visitors or employees, admitting to exist in a residence would need to be approved by the Town.

From the current land use code:

17.14.040 Cottage industry. “Cottage industry” means a business occupation conducted within a single-family residence, where such occupation is clearly secondary to the main residential character of the dwelling unit

17.14.030 Commercial use. “Commercial use” means a use of property with its primary purpose to produce income from the sale directly to the public or indirectly to other establishments of goods or services in commerce.

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rhys jones 3 years, 7 months ago

See, I told you I wasn't an attorney, and I don't think you are either. My guy might make an issue out of "single-family residence" however, as long as we are being obstreperous here. You are very tiresome, Mr. Wedel. You spent 4 hours digging that up? If I had the time to waste that you obviously do, spouting trash in the forums, I could come up with some good arguments for you, but I have a real life, and I choose not to waste it on the likes of you. Good day, sir.

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Scott Wedel 3 years, 7 months ago

Rhys, How in the heck did you calculate 4 hours for something that took me about 5 minutes?

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SMRFF 3 years, 7 months ago

This is a belated and off-topic response to Dogking's diatribe above, but I can't resist.

Dog - Your rant loses almost all credibility when you utilize juvenile writing and grammar skills to spew such angry rhetoric. Much like addition and subtraction of whole numbers, basic writing skills are something typically learned before high school. If you know how to read, you should be able to form basic sentences with proper punctuation, otherwise, much of what you say makes no sense.

It may sound petty and like I am attacking you personally, but truth be told, when you write like a 4th grader, one might assume that you have the intelligence level of a 4th grader. For all we know, a 4th grader did write that. If so, I do apologize.

As far as the longevity of residency is concerned - did it ever occur to you that some of us "newcomers" may be in our early 20s or 30s? Thus, we have not had ample time to be labeled "long-time" locals. I can't help that I was born possibly decades after you. Also, some of us wanted to earn a college degree and get a year or two of real world experience under our belt before moving to this beautiful valley. I know you were referring to OC with that rant, but nonetheless, your local entitlement attitude needs to be checked.

That is all. Have a good day!

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rhys jones 3 years, 7 months ago

SMRFF -- Welcome to the Valley!! Not all of the old-timers are nearly so stuffy. Let's hope some day you're an old-timer too!!

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