Skyler Hartman stands among a sea of marijuana plants. Hartman, who owns the commercial grow operation Elevation Wellness Center in downtown Oak Creek, said as far as he is aware, many residents are not concerned with his operation.

Photo by Joel Reichenberger

Skyler Hartman stands among a sea of marijuana plants. Hartman, who owns the commercial grow operation Elevation Wellness Center in downtown Oak Creek, said as far as he is aware, many residents are not concerned with his operation.

Pot debate grows as Oak Creek residents voice concerns about medical marijuana

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Past Event

Oak Creek Town Board meeting

  • Thursday, April 21, 2011, 6:30 p.m.
  • Oak Creek Town Hall, 129 Nancy Crawford Boulevard, Oak Creek, CO
  • All ages / Free

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Medical marijuana patients are entitled to six plants and 2 ounces, but some say the situation has gotten out of hand. Oak Creek Town Board will hold a session on medical marijuana and unpaid electric bills Thursday.

— The Oak Creek Town Board meeting Thursday night was standing room only, and many audience members were there to talk about an issue that wasn’t even on the agenda.

A contingent of residents was intent on discussing medical marijuana during the public comment portion of the meeting. That included Routt County Sheriff Garrett Wiggins, who said he was invited to the meeting by a group of concerned citizens. Wiggins said medical marijuana has become a growing concern in Oak Creek.

“I’m having people call me on nearly a daily basis saying, ‘Look, we’ve got marijuana crap all over this town,’” Wiggins said Friday. “I guess there’s a housing complex in town, and they’re saying trucks are coming and unloading pallets of fertilizer and they’re seeing plants coming and going. It’s like it’s no big deal. And we’re talking about residential properties.”

The Town Board listened to several complaints but attempted to relegate the bulk of the discussion to a public work session scheduled for 6:30 p.m. Thursday.

Oak Creek resident Eric Bowman was one of the residents who chimed in during the meeting. He read from a prepared statement supporting a ban on dispensaries in Oak Creek.

Bowman said he has no problem with medical marijuana patients being entitled to their six plants and 2 ounces of marijuana per Amendment 20. But he said the situation in Oak Creek has gotten out of hand.

“It’s Pot Gulch now, and not even local potheads are amused,” Bowman said.

Other members of the audience worried that the burden on police Officer Lance Dunaway would be too much, and expressed concern about electricity usage.

Dunaway also sent a memo to the Town Board, in which he wrote that he supports a ban on dispensaries because the Oak Creek Police Department — of which he is the lone officer — “is not equipped to monitor and regulate medical marijuana.”

Skyler Hartman, who owns the commercial grow operation Elevation Wellness Center in downtown Oak Creek, said as far as he is aware, many residents are not concerned with his operation or that of Mary’s Medical Marijuana Dispensary.

Instead, it’s the growers who are operating out of homes and apartments and serving an unknown numbers of patients.

“It’s the people moving their plants from their trucks to their apartment,” Hartman said. “They’re filling these places full of plants and being caregivers and destroying people’s property. That’s what the concern is. And I feel the same way.

“They’re not representing the industry properly.”

He said the town has the right to enact any ordinance it wants to restrict those activities without banning dispensaries and grow operations outright.

“The town has control to limit the number of patients a caregiver could have,” he said.

Wiggins’ presentation to the board brought up more issues than just questionable residential grow operations.

The sheriff cited a Feb. 1 letter from U.S. Department of Justice Attorney for Northern California Melinda Haag to the city of Oakland, Calif., about how the possession, cultivation and sale of marijuana is illegal under federal law, and how the federal government would continue to actively enforce laws against illegal drug trafficking.

The Haag memo refers primarily to individuals and organizations involved with the unlawful cultivation, manufacturing or distribution of marijuana, stating specifically, in accordance with a 2009 Justice Department memo, that the federal government will not make it a priority to focus resources on the sick patients using medical marijuana.

Wiggins said Haag’s statement presented ramifications for towns involved in medical marijuana sales.

“If you accept taxes from the sale of marijuana, you are committing a federal crime,” Wiggins said. “This is a fight I don’t know if the town of Oak Creek or city of Steamboat Springs wants to take on.

“I think you need to really think about this really carefully.”

On Friday, Wiggins said he would be in favor of banning medical marijuana production and commerce in Oak Creek.

“I think I would do that, just based on the unknown,” Wiggins said.

Similar calls for medical marijuana dispensary bans have been made in Steamboat in recent weeks. Other cities and towns across the state also are tackling the issue. A couple of them, including Grand Junction and Castle Rock, recently saw residents vote to ban commercial marijuana operations.

Comments

rhys jones 3 years, 5 months ago

As long as it is even slightly illegal, these problems will surface. Everybody wants their slice of the pie; the unlicensed will resort to whatever means available, now deprived of the faithful Cartels. Last time I looked in the 'hood, I struck out -- "everybody's got their license now" my ex-dealers said. No more Cartel pot, dang it. Now it's gonna cost me. I soon got my license; I hurt too. As long as it is deprived to anybody at all, it will drive up prices for everybody, and fuel these turf wars. When anybody can grow their own and trade it freely, these issues will evaporate.

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rhys jones 3 years, 5 months ago

To be more concise, and address the issue at hand: The flap over commercial growing operations is what this article is about, if I gather its gist, not whether or not, but how and where. Cast my vote for anybody can grow it. And please limit this discussion to the subject at hand in your response, okay? Not that I'm any moderator, but I think most of us are tired of the same old debate; personal issues should be addressed elsewhere, and now we are talking the practical application.

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steamboatsprings 3 years, 5 months ago

Wow, if people in Oak Creek are complaining it truly is out of hand

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JJ Southard 3 years, 5 months ago

OK, Wiggins read the Haag memo. Agreed, the Feds, really confused things with this memo. But, when the DEA raids took place across Montana, none of the local town or city's municipalities were targeted for accepting tax dollars. The Feds accept the tax payments from dispensaries every month. Never in any of the raids the Feds have ever executed in the last 10 years have ever focused or affected a local community and its assests. Again, another meeting chock full of propaganda. These meetings seems to want to ban dispensaries, but they can not stop the patient & caregiver from growing in their homes. Oak Creek, Steamboat, and all of Routt County can not stop the growing of marijuana. To ban the dispensaries will only, obviously, increase this behavior. And we seem to still be leglecting the fact the this medicine works and needs to be available to truly sick people that need it. These people are not capable of growing their own. We will be ready in the Steamboat in May.

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JJ Southard 3 years, 5 months ago

Typo: We will be ready at the Steamboat MEETING in May.

Sorry....posting from my cell phone... :)

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1999 3 years, 5 months ago

yes...this gives wiggins something to do and makes him feel important.

Garret...please...for the love of god...focus on meth and coke and booze.

you essentially are creating this issue.

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Zed 3 years, 5 months ago

Shut em down, let's get an actual pharmacy in Oak Creek instead of multiple marijuana dealers.

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mmjPatient22 3 years, 5 months ago

It's plain as day. These guys don't want to lose their slice of the drug fighting pie. It's like watching a child throw a temper tantrum.

HOW PATHETIC!!!!

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mmjPatient22 3 years, 5 months ago

OH!!! You're back ZED?!?!?

What's a matter big guy, didn't feel like responding to me on the other comment board?

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mmjPatient22 3 years, 5 months ago

Or were you just firing questions off at me because you think you're that person that's suppose to question all the cannabis users?

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1999 3 years, 5 months ago

zed...I believe there is a "real" pharmacy in Oak Creek.

that store probably contributes to the 6.3 million americans that abuse prescription drugs.

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rhys jones 3 years, 5 months ago

I ask again: Can we keep on subject, and leave personal tiffs out of this debate? Rational arguments then take second place. I waste enough of my life in these forums anyway, whatever might be left of it -- I don't want to referee a side squabble too.

I am just amazed how financial motivations can define one's morals.

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1999 3 years, 5 months ago

i'm really not sure what Wiggins hopes to accomplish.

to futher support the illegal border drug trade? does he think he will stop people from using MJ? create work for himself thus making himself look important?

I really do not understand his motivations.

perhaps he could post on this forum and explain his position?

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blue_spruce 3 years, 5 months ago

now, how did i know months ago that wiggins was going to waste his time and resources (oh yeah, and OUR $$) chasing after pot related issues.....funny, huh?

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JLM 3 years, 5 months ago

The issue of "medical" marijuana has never been about medicine. It has always been about marijuana and skirting the Federal drug laws. It is about the long term legalization of marijuana and the short term head fake of putting the term "medical" in front of it is just a sham.

Everybody knows that and the honest folk even acknowledge it.

In a classic "camel's nose under the tent" manner, the issue of medical marijuana has pitched the Feds against the State but the State does not really intend to defend the amendment to the Colorado Constitution.

This administration --- which finds it nearly impossible to even decide how to prosecute a terrorist --- is not going to do anything about the obvious violations of Federal law.

But some smart lawyer is ultimately going to initiate a mandamus or qui tam action because there is a bunch of money changing hands.

Now that the seemingly innocuous medical marijuana growing operations are underway, folks --- that would be normal folks --- see it for what it is and don't want any part of it.

The same losers who were involved in the distribution of illegal marijuana are now involved in the "legal" cultivation of "medical" marijuana which simply purloins the legal for the illegal. It is all just nonsense.

Who ever knew that so many folks here in Colorado were suffering such pain, eh? LOL

It is really pathetic! But in a very nice loser kind of way.

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1999 3 years, 5 months ago

JLM..I guess the next step would be to explore excatly how and why MJ is illegal.

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Scott Wedel 3 years, 5 months ago

The Haag letter changes nothing and does not change federal policy

The city attorney for Oakland California asked for the US Attorney's opinion for Oakland's controversial plan to approve 5 grow centers of 50,000 sq ft each, enough to supply 20% of California's mmj. And California law only recognizes nonprofit collectives so their plan does not appear to conform to state law. So the Oakland city attorney was basically asking how the legality of Oakland's plan would be determined.

US Attorney Haag's letter simply reaffirms that mj is still illegal under federal law. Which means they don't have to negotiate with Oakland or the state of California whether Oakland's scheme violates state law, but can bust facilities at their discretion.

Thus, the Haag letter does not change federal policy of abiding by state and local laws. It simply clarifies how the feds plan to handle situations where city law appears to violate state law. And the answer is it is still against federal law and we act when we want to act. What should be the clear message is that state and local laws should be clear and not in conflict with each other. Colorado has the clearest mmj regulations of any state and so the letter is truly irrelevant for Colorado.

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Scott Wedel 3 years, 5 months ago

JLM, The deeper reason why the feds came up with this policy of allowing mj if it conforms to state and local laws is because it was a bad fight for the feds.

They had all of the local control, state's rights people and libertarians arguing that if it happens purely within state lines then where is the federal constitutional right to intervene.

They also had big cities playing hardball after the feds busted politically popular dispensaries. The cities had instructed local law enforcement to not cooperate with the feds if the involves mj which included cutting the feds out of the local law enforcement database and so on. Well, feds are pretty dependent upon local law enforcement and being cut off really hurt. So even during the Bush's presidency, the feds had backed off in several California cities. The Obama administration was smart enough to realize that any city or state that pushed the issue made it not worthwhile for the feds to bust mmj in that jurisdiction. And so it was a lot easier to simply concede to state and local laws for mmj.

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heboprotagonist 3 years, 5 months ago

This new uptick in "concern" w/r/t MMJ sounds like another astro-turf platform to me. Follow the money.

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JJ Southard 3 years, 5 months ago

Thank you, Scott. That IS the proper interpretation of the Haag memo.

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mmjPatient22 3 years, 5 months ago

JLM-

Your unwavering ignorance on the medicinal value of cannabis is staggering. I'd give you the links that show the evidence proving all of that again, but you probably still wouldn't read it. Just like Fred Duckels, you're not too fond of the real truth.

But I guess you're really rather proud of the billions and billions of dollars that get wasted on the war against cannabis, huh? I guess you'd rather it all be flat-out illegal again and back to black-market status, with absolutely ZERO regulation or oversight, huh? I guess you'd rather see the Mexican drug cartels gain more profits from distributing it illegally, huh?

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Scott Wedel 3 years, 5 months ago

AND THE BIG STORY SHOULD BE THE LETTER WRITTEN BY OFFICER DUNAWAY CITING THE LACK OF COMMUNICATION BETWEEN HIMSELF AND A POLICE COMMISSIONER AND THE LACK OF COMMUNICATIONS BETWEEN HIMSELF AND THE OAK CREEK FIRE DEPARTMENT!!!

Those that are so concerned about OC law enforcement should be far more concerned about the sole OC officier being undercut by a lack of support from a police commissioner and the fire department.

No one should be surprised that if Officer Dunaway is not satisfied with that part of his work environment that has nothing to do with MMJ and decides to leave.

Maybe that is the plan, just as it was to undercut officer Linda Koile and replace her with officers determined to cleanse the Town of "undesirables". Maybe it is the plan to drive Officer Lance away and allow him to be replaced with Wigginites.

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1999 3 years, 5 months ago

that sounds more like it scott.

Wiggins is coming down hard on Lance to "clean up oak creek". but it seems officer Lance's dept is a weeeeeeeeeeeeeee bit understaffed and gets no support.

funny eh?

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mmjPatient22 3 years, 5 months ago

Naysayers-

Stick around for some debate, or

Don't show up at all.

It's pretty cowardly to just pop on to the site for a quick jab at the cannabis users and then disappear when any of them start asking questions or answering all of yours.

Why is it that none of you ever stick around to defend your side of the argument?

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rhys jones 3 years, 5 months ago

You're begging the question. I'm on your side, but I would take their withdrawal as tacit surrender. Don't rub it in; we're trying to keep personalities out of it. There is no place for bitter in these discussions. You only detract from our arguments when you get personal. PLEASE stick to the subject.

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mmjPatient22 3 years, 5 months ago

I thought the subject was trying to find someone that could argue for the side of the prohibitionists? After all, the only thing I'm here for is correct the lies that they spread through their propaganda. I'm well aware of the fact that they don't have a leg to stand on, but what I'm trying to do is get them to realize that point. One would think that a complete lack of defensive argument would imply that their argument, by logic, is indefensible. That's the point I'm trying to drive home. Now, if somebody gets their "itty-bitty feel bads" all tied in a knot when they're presented with that blatant truth, I don't know that I can be held responsible for that. Sometimes the truth hurts. I assure you that whatever pain that may be inflicted is not intended, but it is also not regretted.

When I get personal, I'll start calling people out by name, not by generalizations like "naysayers" or "cowards."

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rhys jones 3 years, 5 months ago

The subject is dispensaries -- where, when, and how. We want substance, supporting EITHER side, and most of the posts here have adhered to that standard. As I said, I support your side, and I don't want to alienate the opposition with my accusations. I'd rather convince them with logic, and reasoning. Making people defensive is no way to prove your point. Now you're playing into their hand, and utilizing their same tactics. Sorry, but that's how I feel.

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rhys jones 3 years, 5 months ago

We have seen many posts here supporting our side, all more eloquent than I could concoct, and backed by hard data. I have deferred from this discussion for that reason. I'm just trying to keep the fight fair, and hitting below the belt is a foul. That just sets them more firmly in their (possibly errant) opinions. I want to open their minds, not shove them further away. Data, man!!

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mmjPatient22 3 years, 5 months ago

Then I guess my point would be that it's not enough. It's not enough to just allow dispensaries and allow medical marijuana patients to legally access their medicine. It's not enough, for me, to just have Amendment 20 in our state's constitution. I'll be satisfied that it's enough when there's a full repeal of the prohibition of cannabis, and nothing less. I'm tired of being demonized by ideologies that were all spawned in racism and hatred. I'm tired of the subsequent waste that ensues when the burden of an endless war on cannabis is laid on the shoulders of the tax-payers. That's my point. We can't afford this crap(prohibition of cannabis) anymore.

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mmjPatient22 3 years, 5 months ago

The data says it's time to end the war on cannabis.

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rhys jones 3 years, 5 months ago

That's the spirit!! Honest opinion, and no personal allegations. We must rise above that, if we are to ever hope to succeed. My first post today called for full legalization, and we have come full-circle. Can I get an Amen, Brother!!

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rhys jones 3 years, 5 months ago

True academics will notice that my position departs from the current question entirely, and that's why I have chosen not to participate in the meat of this question, relegated instead to keeping the discussion civil.

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mtroach 3 years, 5 months ago

mmj22- the reason noone is debating with you is simple. Posters don't come here to debate or have their minds opend by other's comments, we come here to blast our fellow citizens and convey opinions. Noone's mind gets changed reading this forum, this banter just sets already formed prejudices.

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rhys jones 3 years, 5 months ago

We're just chiming in our opinions, then defending our cherished beliefs

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mmjPatient22 3 years, 5 months ago

roach-

I agree that no one really comes here for inspirational, thought-process changing perspectives that can be found nowhere else. I'm not that pompous. The only thing I could ever hope to do is confirm to every, single, solitary naysayer that they simply don't have a debate. Sure, they have complaints, concerns and weighty opinions...but they never really have much to back up what they're saying.

That's all that I want them to realize. The war against cannabis was born in lies, it continues in lies and its every defense is based solely on...you guessed it, lies.

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rhys jones 3 years, 5 months ago

Okay, quit reminding us, and give us some TRUTHS.

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rhys jones 3 years, 5 months ago

You were so enlightening, back when you provided links to hard data, supporting our similar viewpoints. Since then your rhetoric has degraded to 'Don't believe the lies.' Should you return to your old style, providing actual data, please also include a brief summary of the link to which you refer. 'Check this out' is hardly enough to spark my curiosity. I'm lazy, which is why I'm in computers. Help me along here.

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Eric J. Bowman 3 years, 5 months ago

"Wow, if people in Oak Creek are complaining it truly is out of hand"

Haha. Most of my neighbors, though, are ranchers who have lived here for over 50 years, were born here, don't drink, and feel betrayed by Town Board's approving the existing above-board operations. But it should come as no surprise that nobody around here is happy with the current state of affairs -- there's a difference between patients and traffickers, and Oak Creek currently has a problem with traffickers. Go ahead, ask realtors you know if they or their peers have stumbled across grow operations when they show up to sell presumably-vacant properties to prospective buyers.

"These meetings seems to want to ban dispensaries, but they can not stop the patient & caregiver from growing in their homes."

Sure we can. There is no right in the state constitution for patients or caregivers to have more than six plants and two ounces. There's an affirmative defense, but that's negated if the amount in question exceeds local ordinance. If a patient needs more, fine, it's even allowed under state law, we're just saying you can't have more in the town limits. Rent a garage/barn out in the county somewhere.

"To ban the dispensaries will only, obviously, increase this behavior."

Fine. That won't burn down the town by pumping tens of thousands of watts into buildings that aren't wired to support that kind of current, while causing blackouts which shut down the cash registers on Main Street, depriving the town of vital services like the pharmacy, grocery store, gas pumps etc. Figure out a way to regulate and enforce anything beyond growing six plants for personal use, which won't bankrupt the town -- which currently sees $75/yr from Skyler's operation so don't tell me the taxes and fees will take care of the problem of not having a full-time police department, or upgrade our electric infrastructure without dipping into the general fund (thereby subsidizing the federally-criminalized activities of some residents -- if the Sheriff went overboard on that note, fine, it's still a moral issue for local government).

"Garret...please...for the love of god...focus on meth and coke and booze... you essentially are creating this issue."

There's plenty of support around here for local law enforcement to clean out the traffickers, if not outright pressure. Are you saying you're OK with realtors stumbling across unlicensed grow operations in should-be-vacant properties, and that it shouldn't be a law-enforcement issue? Are you saying you're OK with the property next door to my home being turned into a commercial grow operation with hundreds of plants because the guy responsible (and his landlord) insists it's his right because they're for his personal use, and that anyone who doesn't want their kids to witness this activity should stop their whining? I ASSURE YOU this issue is being created by the traffickers, NOT the RCSO.

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Eric J. Bowman 3 years, 5 months ago

"zed...I believe there is a "real" pharmacy in Oak Creek... that store probably contributes to the 6.3 million americans that abuse prescription drugs."

Try not to spout off about that which you know nothing about. David's our local pharmacist, sure, but he's also our local herbalist -- with a full selection of homeopathic and traditional remedies. What his store does contribute, when the power isn't out because of all the illicit commercial grow operations around town, is tax revenue from activities which aren't federally criminalized -- none of that OxyContin is moving out his back door.

I believe David also told the Town Board, back when they approved the existing operations, that they were leading us down a path which would take us to -- gasp -- exactly what we have now. There's enough voter discontent with the current board that it wouldn't surprise me if the voters take this issue out of their hands; after having had to do that, it wouldn't further surprise me if there were a recall election -- you don't have to have lived in Oak Creek all that long to know that we love having those at the drop of a hat. Town Board failed to give any consideration to regulation and enforcement before welcoming this industry to town, inviting exactly the abuses we're currently seeing, to the point where by-far the easiest and most cost-effective solution is to shut 'em all down.

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honestabe 3 years, 5 months ago

Eric, your ASSURANCES, are not 100%. The issue is being created by you. A plant is being grown, why would someones parents be so concerned about this? Are you saying it is not okay for a landlord to make his mortgage payments as a result a grower renting out his place? I am happy with the current state of affairs, i have seen no added violence, crime, etc as a result of the new growers, just increased economic activity for our area.
Eric, do you have any idea how much the town electical fund PROFITS off the sale of additional electricity to growers? I assure you they sell kwh's for more than they buy them. Possibly the grow ops will allow oc to finally fix its electrical issues. These issues were not created by mmj growers, they have existed for years/decades. Are you suggesting that the kayak factory has illegal/uninspected wiring/electrical issues?

"Are you saying you're OK with the property next door to my home being turned into a commercial grow operation with hundreds of plants because the guy responsible (and his landlord) insists it's his right because they're for his personal use" What i'd say to that is , "I'm not ok with you snooping around your neighbors property and concerning yourself with their personal business!!" It seems you want to take away a lot of other peoples rights, and give yourself a few extra!

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JLM 3 years, 5 months ago

Federal law is clear on the subject of the legality of marijuana. It is illegal, notwithstanding any of a number of ill advised state actions whether they be laws or in the case of Colorado an amendment to the State's Constitution. Marijuana is illegal.

This administration is a bit foggy as to how it intends to enforce federal law --- no differently than it has wavered as to how it intends to prosecute an international terrorist --- thereby creating more than a bit of confusion.

But even this goofy administration does not have the temerity to simply direct law enforcement not to enforce the law. That would be a crime unto itself.

State laws which purport to "change the law" in contravention of Federal law are simply nonsensical and ill informed exercises in social engineering as they have absolutely no impact on Federal law.

What all the sh!thouse wanna be lawyers on this thread are confused about is something called "jurisdiction". The Feds routinely concede jurisdiction to the locals no differently than a county concedes jurisdiction to the local incorporated cities within its county wide jurisdiction.

Federal law is not impacted in the least by placing the adjectival descriptor "medical" in front of the word marijuana.

At the end of they day, marijuana --- medical or otherwise --- is just another means by which losers can escape the miserable reality of their lives while pretending that their alternative and pathetic loathing self image is somehow tethered in the real world.

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Eric J. Bowman 3 years, 5 months ago

"Wow, if people in Oak Creek are complaining it truly is out of hand"

Another way to look at this is, if I'm getting my name in the newspaper for speaking out against MMJ, then yeah it must be out-of-hand, since I support decriminalization. Living next door to ground zero of the abuses has led me to my current position, which is that it's naive to think that a town like Oak Creek is capable of limiting itself to the existing operations without inviting abuse, to the point where the only rational solution is to ban what we have now.

Because what above-board operations we do have now, are not without their own problems. Many people refuse to enter Mountain Market due to the smell nowadays. And Skyler needs to stop giving tours to anyone who asks, be they local officials or photographers for the newspaper -- the law clearly states the conditions for restricted-access areas, which does not include guided tours for visitors. The newspaper shouldn't be directing its photographer to break the MMJ law for the sake of a cover photo...

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mmjPatient22 3 years, 5 months ago

Mr. Bowman-

How nice of you to join us again. I had almost thought that you'd abandoned us after you failed to respond on the other comment board. Maybe you just failed to check on responses to your other comments, or perhaps you just had nothing to say? Either way, glad you're back.

To address your first quote, do you honestly believe that cannabis growers are breaking into vacant properties and setting up grow operations? If this is the case, maybe you should contact your local law enforcement to report a trespass infraction. I would have to agree that this would be a serious problem, if it were actually happening.

Secondly, no, you really can't. The medical marijuana law(amendment 20) in this state is unique, in that it is the only one that is a part of our states constitution. There is nothing that a municipality, city or uppity civilian/cop/whoever can do to take away our right to grow our own plants(6) in our own homes and there's nothing that can be done to prohibit a medical marijuana patient from having his/her medicine grown by a caregiver. And you can't outlaw caregivers. That battle has already been lost, a while ago.

Next, your ideas about electricity are fantastic. Where did you get your education on electricity? And please tell us that you've got some sort of evidence that shows that cannabis growing operations have anything to do with debilitating black outs on Main St. You draw some pretty fancy conclusions but they all seem to end up with cannabis as the culprit. That must be nice, having a single scapegoat for all of your issues.

Lastly, you couldn't be any further obfuscated about the origins of the war against cannabis. What exactly do you think your kids are witnessing? How many shootings have there been in front of that grow op? How many rapes? How many assaults? Drive-by's? Graffiti? Open, public drug use on the streets? How many prostitutes? Where's all the violence and crime? And for God's sake, what about all of the victims?

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mmjPatient22 3 years, 5 months ago

Eric-

Something tells me that your stance is the farthest one from ever supporting decriminalization. If it is, you could have fooled me.

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honestabe 3 years, 5 months ago

Erik, quit while you are behind. So you and your local potheads are not impressed. Hence, we should ban weed cultivation. Your Argument #1. Argument 2, it smells, so we should ban it. Okay, lets ban the burning of coal and wood also, they smell. Lets bring back the smell of burning plastics at the kayak factory, or silica dust pollution. We arent able to deal with alcohols use without inviting abuse, lets ban alcohol too. Argument 3, a new one. The growers are allowing visitors, lets shut them down. You go weed policeman Bowman!!

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mmjPatient22 3 years, 5 months ago

JLM-

OH, another prohibitionist shows back up!!!

How about you JLM?!? Give up on trying to respond on the other comment boards?

Well, let's try again. Federal law can go stick it, at least according to the vote of the people. The residents of this state, and a whole mess of other states, have had the majority of their residents vote in favor of cannabis. Ain't that a b!+(#!
And where in the hell does law enforcement get off thinking that they have the right to just subvert the will of the people like that? We pay their frickin' salaries too, don't we?

The trend is changing and people are waking up to the lies of the cannabis war. You can't win anymore. We're not that dumb.

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Eric J. Bowman 3 years, 5 months ago

"What i'd say to that is , 'I'm not ok with you snooping around your neighbors property and concerning yourself with their personal business!!'"

Please understand that nobody's snooping. The operations next door are being thrown in everyone's face, no discretion whatsoever. So yes, families with kids are not happy about what their kids have no choice but to witness, unless their parents keep them blindfolded. You may not have a problem with what's going on in this town, but the majority of voters, do. If anyone wants their grow operation kept a secret, then it's a secret they'll need to keep themselves to begin with. There's nothing being kept secret next door to me, so nobody who's witnessed it is guilty of snooping when pointing out the obvious.

"Are you saying it is not okay for a landlord to make his mortgage payments as a result a grower renting out his place?"

Yes. The old hospital is "zoned" as a residential four-plex, not a single-family home with a boatload of commercial marijuana cultivation. Are you saying that property owners have a right to do whatever they want with their property, regardless of zoning restrictions? Scott should be allowed to rent that property to homebrewers, who should have no restriction on the amount of beer they can produce? You seem to be worried about a lot of rights which don't actually exist whether we're talking marijuana or not.

"The issue is being created by you."

No, I'm just talking about it here. The issue is being driven by the dozens and dozens of complaints local law enforcement has received, not to mention town hall, planning/police/fire commissioners, board members, public works... NOT because I'm the only one on this side of the issue posting to this website.

"Eric, do you have any idea how much the town electical fund PROFITS off the sale of additional electricity to growers?"

None whatsoever. Not no idea whatsoever, the fact is that the town electrical fund supports the provision of electricity; it isn't a revenue center with profits that are going to start magically funding a full-time police department if we just look the other way at all the unlicensed commercial cultivation operations.

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Eric J. Bowman 3 years, 5 months ago

"Are you suggesting that the kayak factory has illegal/uninspected wiring/electrical issues?"

It's my understanding that Skyler has approached the town to upgrade that wiring. The kayak factory is one thing, nobody ever put industrial-grade wiring in residential buildings, so if even the kayak factory needs an upgrade then yes, it's logical to assume the town's existing infrastructure cannot support widespread commercial pot cultivation in residential areas.

"It seems you want to take away a lot of other peoples rights, and give yourself a few extra!"

What right does restricting Oak Creek residents to six plants and two ounces in their primary residence, take away from anyone? Is the peaceful enjoyment of my home some outrageous new right I'm asserting? Nobody has any "right" to have more than six plants and two ounces, which I'm not suggesting we change.

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mmjPatient22 3 years, 5 months ago

ERIC-

C'mon now.

"The newspaper shouldn't be directing its photographer to break the MMJ law for the sake of a cover photo..."

Now you're accusing the NEWSPAPER of coaxing their employees to break the "mmj law" for the mere sake of a cover photo?!?!?! This just keeps getting better and better.

Pray tell, oh Mr. Bowman sir, exactly what "mmj law" was broken?

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Eric J. Bowman 3 years, 5 months ago

"Well, let's try again. Federal law can go stick it, at least according to the vote of the people."

Yes, let's do try again. Hundreds of years of precedent, going back before the Civil War to the Whiskey Rebellion, have established the supremacy of federal law. The voters in this state didn't get cannabis moved to Schedule II, so it's still a federal felony.

Also, what the voters of this state thought they were approving was medical marijuana. Many of those same voters now believe they were sold a bill of goods, since genuine medical use seems to make up such a tiny percentage of the present reality. So don't think the voters, or the legislature, can't undo decriminalization as hastily as it was passed.

So your constant refrain of "the voters have spoken" is as boring as it is irrelevant, since the voters only guaranteed six plants and two ounces as a right in the first place, and we aren't talking about that here -- we're talking about commercial cultivation, which is not protected by the constitution, and was passed by the legislature, not the referendum process which brought us amendment 20.

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Eric J. Bowman 3 years, 5 months ago

"Something tells me that your stance is the farthest one from ever supporting decriminalization. If it is, you could have fooled me."

If you think everyone who supports MMJ is in favor of unlicensed and unlimited commercial growing in residential neighborhoods, vacant properties for sale, etc. then you're more naive than I thought. We the voters of Colorado, never voted to legalize marijuana for everyone or allow hundreds of plants to be grown for "personal use".

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mmjPatient22 3 years, 5 months ago

Precedent? We're talking precedent now? Okay.

What about the thousands of years prior to the prohibition of cannabis? What would you call all of those thousands of years of cannabis use, irrelevant?

And what about the 10th Amendment? Can't a state legislate their own laws about cannabis?

And I absolutely am CONVINCED that there will never be a repeal of pro-cannabis legislation in this state. Didn't you read the link about the Gov of Montana vetoing the attempted repeal of the MMJ legislation in his state?

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mmjPatient22 3 years, 5 months ago

You seem to be really fired up about this whole thing, mainly, because it's right next door to you. Let me ask you something. If there were no prohibition on cannabis, do you think that the space right next door to you would have still been chosen for a cannabis growing operation site?

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Eric J. Bowman 3 years, 5 months ago

"Pray tell, oh Mr. Bowman sir, exactly what 'mmj law' was broken?"

OK, Mr. disrespectful anonymous jackass, go read CRS 12-43.3-901., "unlawful acts" includes:

"TO BE WITHIN A LIMITED-ACCESS AREA UNLESS THE PERSON'S LICENSE BADGE IS DISPLAYED AS REQUIRED BY THIS ARTICLE, EXCEPT AS PROVIDED IN SECTION 12-43.3-701;"

Will you now doubt that the photo in this morning's newspaper shows a limited-access area? There is no exception in 12-43.3-701 for newspaper photographers. It's just a straight-up fact that the law says this, your punk-ass attitude aside.

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mmjPatient22 3 years, 5 months ago

And again I'll ask,

Where's all the crime? Where's all of the violence? Where are all of the victims?

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mmjPatient22 3 years, 5 months ago

Well, guess we better sick the Wigginator on the Pilot then, shouldn't we?

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Eric J. Bowman 3 years, 5 months ago

"Let me ask you something. If there were no prohibition on cannabis, do you think that the space right next door to you would have still been chosen for a cannabis growing operation site?"

But they aren't growing tomatoes or orchids, they're growing things which rippers kick down doors at night to steal, if the feds don't show up first (and hopefully they'll have the right address). If cannabis were fully legal, it would be no more acceptable to do what's being done next door to me, than if that were an alleged homebrewery. Home brewing is legal, up to a point, past which you need a liquor license -- why should legalized cannabis be any different?

You also seem to keep ducking the issue of what's really going on in my area. Again I ask, you're OK with realtors showing properties walking in on grow operations? If that's what you demand folks accept to advance your goal of full legalization, then we'll never get there. So stop trying to fool folks into thinking that the MMJ industry is benign and harmless, and brings no law-enforcement requirement with it.

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Eric J. Bowman 3 years, 5 months ago

"Little hot under the collar, eh?"

No, I've just never suffered fools gladly in online debate.

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mmjPatient22 3 years, 5 months ago

(Dear Pilot, your timing for posts that happen in rapid succession is absolutely horrible. There is no sanity to the order in which the comments got posted and I certainly didn't post them in that order.)

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Scott Wedel 3 years, 5 months ago

It was not Skylar's fault that when a truck hit a power pole and shorted out transmission lines that a whole series of unmaintained equipment failed.

It was not Skylar's fault that transmission lines along Grant were grossly undersized.

Actually, Bob Meade, the expect from MEAN, said in a public meeting that transmission capacity near Skylar's facility was in better shape than rest of system because that was where there was once a substation and so had larger capacity wires. But when substation was located north of town that then electricity was being carried from the thinnest wires towards the bigger wires and that was a problem.

Nor was it Skylar's fault when a drunk crashed into a power poles.

And Skylar has paid for his larger transformer.

As for the Town's general fund, it takes so much from the electric fund that claiming the electric fund could ever hurt the general fund is a joke. General fund does not pay for electricity for any town buildings, parks or street lights. Electric fund pays for oddities like the town's road grader. If electric fund was run like a business then it would refuse to pay the obscene overhead charges for the billing services provided by Town Hall.

And someone there are all of these blatant crimes of breaking into houses and growing there, "hundreds" of plants being grown and yet the solution is more laws???

Knock, knock. Who's there. The MMJ inspection police to make sure you have no more than 6 plants and 2 ounces. Yep, get rid of Lance and bring back Russ and Erik. We need a fascist police state.to control what people are doing inside their houses. These same people spoke up in support of Russ and Erik. Town Board never did fire Russ or Erik.

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1999 3 years, 5 months ago

Eric..The county gets "dozens and dozens" of calls about a plethora of things.

Tuesday night bike rides. barking dogs. moose. drunken people wandering the streets. noise complaints. scoria on the road. no scoria on the road. plow drivers waking them up. plow driver "puposly" blocking in driveways. stop lights too slow. stop lights too fast. parking on roads people using bait in the river downtown cattle drives ruining their day parades ruining their day plows started to late. trash on downtown streets

you get the picture?

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mmjPatient22 3 years, 5 months ago

If there were no prohibition on cannabis, do you really believe that there would still be all these "rippers" that fill your nightmares? If people could freely access it, why would they go break into the places that sell it? Wouldn't they just buy some? Like booze? There hasn't been some rash of local liquor store robberies that I've missed out on, has there?

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Eric J. Bowman 3 years, 5 months ago

"What about the thousands of years prior to the prohibition of cannabis? What would you call all of those thousands of years of cannabis use, irrelevant?"

Yes, completely irrelevant to Colorado MMJ law, and again, what Oak Creek has a problem with right now isn't MMJ, it's traffickers.

"And what about the 10th Amendment? Can't a state legislate their own laws about cannabis?"

Of course, and if they're more strict than federal law, they'll take precedent. But no, Colorado voters don't have the ability to reschedule cannabis to Schedule II. I'm not here to have this debate, which comes up all the time regarding illegal immigration and everything else -- some "tenthers" believe the Civil War had a different outcome, yes, but nobody has any doubt that pot is still a federal felony crime, even in Colorado.

"Where's all the crime? Where's all of the violence? Where are all of the victims?"

Where's the peaceful enjoyment of our homes, for the residents of this neighborhood? When the power goes out because of all the unlicensed grow operations and I start missing client deadlines because my home office has no power, it becomes a huge problem without anyone getting gunned down in the streets.

Again, you favor legalization, but you also seem to favor ramming cannabis down the throats of those who don't, and those who know that in order to further decriminalize in this state, those involved in MMJ must first prove they can play by the rules.

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Eric J. Bowman 3 years, 5 months ago

"If there were no prohibition on cannabis, do you really believe that there would still be all these 'rippers' that fill your nightmares? If people could freely access it, why would they go break into the places that sell it?"

Your increasingly-naive hypotheticals ignore reality, so I'm going to disengage.

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mmjPatient22 3 years, 5 months ago

Actually, I'm just vehemently opposed to the whole damn prohibition from the word go.

Anything to do with it, anyone who supports it, anyone who joyfully makes their living off of it. All so very disgusting to me. It's disgusting to me that people still think they have a right to tell me I'm a criminal for non-violently enjoying a plant.

If something was founded in lies and disinformation, what validation can be given for it after the fact? What justification is there? I hate to sound like a broken record, but where are all of the victims?

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mmjPatient22 3 years, 5 months ago

You all still cling to your "it's illegal federally" argument.

What I'm saying is that it's an injustice and an outrage that the prohibition still exists.

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Eric J. Bowman 3 years, 5 months ago

"To address your first quote, do you honestly believe that cannabis growers are breaking into vacant properties and setting up grow operations? If this is the case, maybe you should contact your local law enforcement to report a trespass infraction. I would have to agree that this would be a serious problem, if it were actually happening."

Good grief. Local law enforcement is who told me about it, and that's why the Sheriff came to the Town Board meeting to discuss our clear problem with traffickers here. Just because you don't know about it or haven't read it in the paper or whatever, doesn't mean I make stuff up -- notice how I don't post anonymously? That's because I have credibility for not making stuff up, and I don't want to risk that credibility.

If I stop posting, it's because I've said what I felt needed saying, not because I'm "ducking" anything. Post something intelligent instead of ad-hominem attacks, and I might just respond. Continue to ignore the real problems and spew your misinformed propaganda, and I'll go back to ignoring everything you have to say.

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honestabe 3 years, 5 months ago

Eric, i would gladly join you in an effort to upgrade and update Oak Creek's electrical grid/system. As for the peaceful enjoyment of your home, what other issues are there? Possibly a longstanding grudge against the landlord (Scott)?

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honestabe 3 years, 5 months ago

ps. mmjpatient22, your rants are tiresome and do little if nothing to convince others. We know you think its an outrage and injustice. Point taken.

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Eric J. Bowman 3 years, 5 months ago

"Erik, quit while you are behind. So you and your local potheads are not impressed. Hence, we should ban weed cultivation. Your Argument #1... Argument 2, it smells, so we should ban it."

Misstating my positions is an incredibly lame argument. Where did I say it should be banned? I've explicitly stated it should be restricted to the constitutionally-allowed minimum of six plants and two ounces. My other arguments go to the impact on the neighborhood -- a little common-sense discretion from the MMJ folks would go a long way with the community.

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Eric J. Bowman 3 years, 5 months ago

"Argument 3, a new one. The growers are allowing visitors, lets shut them down."

Just making a simple, rational point -- the MMJ industry is under scrutiny right now, so if they want to preserve their operations here, they ought not be playing fast-and-loose with the rules, because it gives the local voters all the more reason to shut them down. That doesn't make me the "weed cop", only proves how many people here are incapable of civil discourse by constantly reverting to ad-hominem.

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Eric J. Bowman 3 years, 5 months ago

"As for the peaceful enjoyment of your home, what other issues are there?"

Spoken like someone who's never lived next door to a commercial cultivation facility. I wouldn't want to live next door to a commercial brewery, either, and there's no reason I (or my neighbors) should be expected to stand for either. There are places for such operations, and the middle of a residential neighborhood isn't an appropriate one.

Nobody who owns property in this neighborhood thinks otherwise, except for Scott, who tells lie after lie in an effort to justify what he's done, to the point where he'll scare-quote "hundreds" which everyone who saw him witness just that, knows he saw -- and further, knows he sanctions.

Scott, you said I'd be eating my words when folks moved in next door. But they've only moved into one unit, the rest are all plants. So you lied to me in that other thread, didn't you? Which I still wouldn't call you out for, except for you storming out of the meeting the other night accusing Karen of lying. You don't have the credibility in this community right now, to accuse anyone of anything, because your story about what's going on in the old hospital changes as often as the weather.

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Eric J. Bowman 3 years, 5 months ago

"We need a fascist police state.to control what people are doing inside their houses."

But they're not doing this in the privacy of their own homes. Vacant properties for one? Hell, these folks were outside repotting seedlings the other day on the sidewalk. I know of no serious MMJ supporter who's cool with that. So stop bringing up the privacy argument -- these folks obviously don't want any, and the community obviously can't have any from their federally-criminal activities.

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rhys jones 3 years, 5 months ago

I'm going to break my own rule here: Some people have WAY too much time on their hands. You guys need your own forum -- oops, I guess this is it. Is this all you live for, arguing in the paper? Get a job; get a life. Stop banging the same old drums ad infinitum. You have already lost any swing vote, everybody is tired of this except you. I'm addressing both sides now. Cheerio!!

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mmjPatient22 3 years, 5 months ago

Eric-

Start a petition or something.

Rhys-

My job doesn't have anything for me to do today, namely due to it being Sunday and all. And my life, well my life is mine to do with it what I will. If I choose to spend whatever portion of my life non-violently protesting the prohibition of cannabis(albeit not in conformity with your ideals), what matter is it to you?

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mmjPatient22 3 years, 5 months ago

And Eric again-

What horrors are your children exposed to? What have they witnessed that's scarred them so deeply?

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rhys jones 3 years, 5 months ago

mmj -- we are not in disagreement about prohibition; in fact we are on the same page. I can particularly understand your willingness to participate in this forum, maybe movement restricted and nothing better to do. Go ahead, speak your mind all day long, and night too. The sheer volume of commentary spewed here scared off any curious visitors long ago, well-founded or not. Now you're arguing just to argue, because your fragile egos must have the last word, each one of you. Good luck with that, eh? Everybody else stopped reading this long ago, except you 3 and the occasional visitor such as myself. Go ahead, knock yourself out, I think I'll go fishing or something. Have fun, guys!!

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Eric J. Bowman 3 years, 5 months ago

I don't have kids. But no parent I know wants their kid walking down the sidewalk and witnessing large-scale marijuana cultivation. Who are you to tell those parents that they have no right to complain? What they're complaining about is a federal crime, after all. Just because some of those parents support MMJ decriminalization doesn't mean they support the current free-for-all, or want this activity thrown in their kids' faces. Does your insistence on legalization extend to telling parents how to raise their kids? If a parent doesn't want their kids exposed to this, there's absolutely no "right" you can throw back in their face to demand they put up with this, so I'd say those parents are well within their rights, whether you agree with them or not.

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Eric J. Bowman 3 years, 5 months ago

"Start a petition or something."

There's more than enough support locally to call a special election to adopt an ordinance restricting MMJ activity in this town to six plants and two ounces, if Town Board continues to let the voters down on this issue. There was no support for such an ordinance earlier this year, but that was before all the blatant, broad-daylight abuse got everyone thinking this needs to be taken out of the Board's hands before it's too late.

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mmjPatient22 3 years, 5 months ago

Rhys- Obviously you've stuck around to follow enough of it to be involved. Where's your life? Where's your job? Stop trying to tell me how to protest. You protest how you see fit and I'll do the same. That's the best part about this country; we're free to do stuff like that. It reminds me of an old toast we used to say back in the Navy; "Here's to you and here's to me. And should we ever disagree...well, then f@#$ you! Here's to me!"

And I'm none too sure about your theory of depleted visitor numbers on this comment board, and how that it's all our(well, my) fault. If I was a visitor on this site and I saw that the commentary on the most discussed article was at a fever pitch...I might just stop in to see what all the yammerin' was aboot. Maybe that's just me though.

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exduffer 3 years, 5 months ago

I think coffee and a newspaper for the two of you is in order.

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mmjPatient22 3 years, 5 months ago

And Eric...

I must apologize. I misunderstood you and was under the misguided impression that you were a parent. Thank you for clearing that up. Just for the sake of thoroughness, neither am I. Love the little boogers but I don't have any.

Now, you're really threatening to...let me see if I've got this straight....

"call a special election to adopt an ordinance restricting MMJ activity in this town to six plants and two ounces,"

...is that right? ....Well, Mr. Fancy Pants, wouldn't that mean that all of the mmj patients, like myself, would then be forced to grow their own? Or would we all have to live together, in one area, to make sure we keep ourselves well-hidden enough and separate enough from the likes of you? Why does it seem like you're hell-bent on trying to keep cannabis tucked away in some dark corner of our society?

And whether any parent tries to vainly attempt to shelter their children from the realities of cannabis in our present day society, or not, do you honestly think that the children won't be confronted with cannabis at some point eventually? That being said, wouldn't it be prudent of parents to educate their children about cannabis beforehand?
Why should cannabis users have to assume the liability for parents that fail to educate their children about cannabis? Why should cannabis users be held responsible for the inaction of irresponsible parents?

No one is demanding that they put up with it. I do demand, however, that parents need to raise informed children. The last thing this world needs is more idiots.

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JLM 3 years, 5 months ago

mmj, dude, calm down you are going to have a stroke

it does not mean a whit what the people of Colorado think about a given Federal law

that is not how the legislative process works

"The last thing this world needs is more idiots."

On this we agree. If the shoe fits, wear it.

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mmjPatient22 3 years, 5 months ago

JLM-

Is that your best response? You tell me to calm down because you're worried about me having a stroke?

And you don't have to tell me how the legislative process works, old timer.

What about all of the other comment boards that you've abandoned? What about all of the questions that you, seemingly, walked out on in forfeiture?

When someone answers your questions and then asks you a question or two in response.....and then you come back with NOTHING....where does that leave you in the debate?

I'm failing to see how I'm the loser here.

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Eric J. Bowman 3 years, 5 months ago

"Well, Mr. Fancy Pants, wouldn't that mean that all of the mmj patients, like myself, would then be forced to grow their own?"

Once again, yes, so what? Nobody has a problem with that. Actually, we wouldn't be forcing you to grow your own; if you go to Steamboat and score two ounces from a dispensary to bring back to your residence in Oak Creek you aren't violating any laws, nor are you being stripped of any rights. If you can't go to Steamboat, then your primary caregiver can make that trip for you.

"Or would we all have to live together, in one area, to make sure we keep ourselves well-hidden enough and separate enough from the likes of you?"

More ad-hominems, you realize you just discredit yourself with those, right? The grown-up argument here, is giving local law enforcement the tools to know what's allowed and what isn't (the ability to distinguish between a patient and a trafficker), which they don't currently have. We have the resources to not hassle anyone for six plants and two ounces, while we do not have the resources to regulate and enforce large-scale operations which drain more revenue than they generate. Do you understand that I'm explicitly arguing against marijuana enforcement by keeping the MMJ industry out? Or is that too nuanced a position for you to grasp when stoned?

Our part-time police department has enough on its hands (regardless of who that PD consists of) without the added responsibility of being the full-time pot cops. If we limit this town to patients with six plants and two ounces, we don't need full-time MMJ enforcement to deal with larger quantities maybe being legal (nobody wants Lance spending all his time certifying 70/30's, running background checks, and otherwise being a pencil-pusher when we need him out on the streets -- or any other cop for that matter, let's keep this about Lance's job description and not Lance).

"Why does it seem like you're hell-bent on trying to keep cannabis tucked away in some dark corner of our society?"

Why are you hell-bent on justifying behaviors which guarantee that's right back where it goes? Doesn't Montana worry you even a little bit, that amendment 20 can be repealed here, if not by legislative action then by another referendum? The MMJ industry needs to either clean up its act, or drop the pretense of "medical" and ask the voters if full legalization is what we really want -- and might be surprised to find that unlimited pot growing doesn't have the backing of the voters.

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Eric J. Bowman 3 years, 5 months ago

"That being said, wouldn't it be prudent of parents to educate their children about cannabis beforehand?"

Again, if telling people how to raise their children is the prerequisite, we're headed right back to prohibition. Wouldn't it be more prudent for those committing federal crimes, to keep it out of the plain view of the neighborhoods where those poor, sheltered children have the misfortune of being raised? /sarcasm

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mmjPatient22 3 years, 5 months ago

Eric-

The Gov in Montana VETOED the bill that would have repealed the medical marijuana law in that state. http://cannabisnews.com/news/26/thread26465.shtml

That's the 3rd or 4th time I've brought that fact up since you originally mentioned it on another comment board. And I'm the one not paying attention?

And...... "The MMJ industry needs to either clean up its act, or drop the pretense of "medical" and ask the voters if full legalization is what we really want"

I've already covered that too....if you would have read my comments. It's past time for that vote. And that's where we differ. I believe that it will have the backing of the voters. After all, how easily can you justify spending this much money? http://www.drugsense.org/cms/wodclock

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mmjPatient22 3 years, 5 months ago

Again...and I know I sound like a broken record still.....

But what exactly are these children witnessing?

What is the great trauma unfolding before their innocent eyes?

What horrific scene are they taking in that they will never be able to erase from their memories?

....plants? People moving plants around? Honestly?

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mmjPatient22 3 years, 5 months ago

As you may well be able to surmise, I'm drawing a very black and white picture of what a federal crime is, and/or is not.

I guess perception is everything.

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rhys jones 3 years, 5 months ago

exduffer -- right on!! Let these punch-drunks swing it out, maybe they'll KO each other. I'm out, purely tired of the SOS. To ask anybody to read these volumes of tripe is quite egotistical, like anybody has the time, let alone cares what these blowhards think. You have a great day -- these guys obviously like turmoil. I'm a piece-nik -- say your piece, then get out. See ya!!

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mmjPatient22 3 years, 5 months ago

Rhys-

Then just stay out of it. If you don't want anything to do with it, there's no need to make some big announcement about it. Just do it. I think this is the second time you've said you were done with it.

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Eric J. Bowman 3 years, 5 months ago

"That's the 3rd or 4th time I've brought that fact up since you originally mentioned it on another comment board. And I'm the one not paying attention?"

Do you understand that it doesn't settle the issue in Montana, and that they'd have just reinstated prohibition had that Governor been a Republican? You're insisting that because it almost happened in Montana, it'll never, ever happen here, which is a weak argument. Regardless, it was just the other week when the DEA, in 48 hours, raided 26 dispensaries in Montana, reminding us all that pot's still a federal crime, so maybe even if it did bring in revenue, local governments shouldn't get too attached.

BTW, you mean in another thread; another comment board means some other website, and a quick Google will show you that aside from this, most all my online comments are about Web architecture. Basically, as long as nobody's snowmobiling through my yard and the cops aren't running around tasering citizens, I have nothing to say about local politics, so I rarely participate in person or online.

"But what exactly are these children witnessing?"

Understand that the parents (grandparents and great-grandparents) of this neighborhood don't want their kids even playing outside right now. Whether you agree with them or not, clearly they feel that they're being denied the peaceful enjoyment of their homes because of this. That's their right, those giving offense have no right to assert in rebuttal; your failure to understand that is an example of why there's a statewide backlash against MMJ right now.

If we were talking about six plants kept from public view, nobody would feel this way, so stop with the strawman arguments. You'll never convince sane parents not to freak out about this, which is again why serious MMJ advocates are appalled by what's going on in this town -- nobody (except you) ever expected growers to start flaunting large-scale cultivation operations in residential neighborhoods where kids (used to) play. But, you're only concerned with the nonexistent "rights" of those growing more than six plants to change the character of this community, with no regard to anyone else's rights to not see it taken over by those engaged in federally-criminalized activities.

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rhys jones 3 years, 5 months ago

mmj -- we had a saying in the Marines: Those squids just don't know when to shut up.

We prefer action, and while you guys were yammering here and thinking up clever personal slams, I wrote 2 emails to people I care about, and got a start on another computer program. Yak yak, see ya later. B-O-R-I-N-G. E-G-O.

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rhys jones 3 years, 5 months ago

OK, NOW I'm done, unless you keep egging me on. You are a petty, insecure individual, mmj. keep 'em coming, you're alienating your own folks

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mmjPatient22 3 years, 5 months ago

Eric-

Listen, if you want to discuss the intricacies of what the definition of a comment board is, then I guess you'll just have to go ahead and chalk that one up as a win for yourself. I give up. You win the "comment board" argument. Congrats.

And I guess I'm failing to see what the "safety" concern is for these elders of the community. It's not about agreement, it's about trying to understand. What exactly is the "safety" issue? Is someone outside smoking a 6ft bong on the sidewalk? And why do our 6 plants have to be kept from public view? Why can't plants be in their natural environment?

And enough with the "federally criminalized" BS. Amendment 20 exists. Get over it.

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mmjPatient22 3 years, 5 months ago

It had nothing to do with egging you on. I was merely pointing out your apparent need to keep interjecting your 2 cents on the subject, after specifically stating that you were pulling yourself out of the debate.

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rhys jones 3 years, 5 months ago

That's the best you can do? Well at least your digs are getting shorter. The whole community wants to be informed by you, you are quite sure. Everybody waits with bated breath on your next pearl of wisdom, so amazed are they with your intelligence and wit. The reason everybody has abandoned this discussion isn't because they are bored with it, but your remarks are so insightful, we are all in awe. Oh please, mighty Guru, lead the way for us.

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Eric J. Bowman 3 years, 5 months ago

"And enough with the 'federally criminalized' BS. Amendment 20 exists. Get over it."

So you're saying the DEA didn't raid those 26 dispensaries in Montana? Amendment 20 didn't do anything to change the fact that cannabis remains on Schedule I federally. As much as I want that to change, it hasn't, so you're the one with something to get over. It's a shame we stopped teaching civics in public school.

Your six plants need to be hidden from public view because, since it's a federal crime, it's just common courtesy not to ask the entire neighborhood to become your accomplices, not to mention common-sense wisdom that's always applied to pot growing (this morning's newspaper cover photo notwithstanding). You're aware that there's a penalty for blazing up in public even if you have a card, right? Which includes a minimum one-year suspension of your patient card? Limited decriminalization doesn't mean "totally legal to throw in everyone's face," discretion is still advised. It's this lack of sensitivity towards others' feelings by the indiscreet, that's going to lead us back towards prohibition.

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mmjPatient22 3 years, 5 months ago

Eric-

For Pete's sake, I'm well aware that cannabis is still a schedule 1 narcotic. I'm well aware that amendment 20 is not at the federal level. I'm not ignorant. I know that the DEA is still going after cannabis users. If I was DEA, I wouldn't want to lose that revenue stream either. It's good money, for the work.

Despite cannabis still being listed as a schedule 1 narcotic, there isn't a lot of room for interpretation in the memo from Attorney General Eric Holder that says the feds need to stop wasting their resources on those that are operating with-in the bounds of their respective state's laws, regarding cannabis.

And I'll leave it to you to detract from the value a veto from a Governor.

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Scott Wedel 3 years, 5 months ago

That is just too much. So they are friends with locals, have their own kid and people are unwilling to let their kids play outside? Well, that's is just stupid.

What next? Parents keeping their kids inside because they are worried that kids might fall into the voids in the streets and be buried alive?

I hope you have provided written signed statements to the police about all of this so there is written record of your wild claims.

Wasn't long ago that you were fear mongering about how this was a commercial grow facility and would have no occupants. Now they have moved in and are living there so now the crazed fears is about armed drug dealers and rippers breaking in and stealing stuff.

BTW, electricians have looked at the building wiring and say it is fine. The biggest concern is the service line that was reported over a month ago as being several feet too close to the ground and crosses a neighboring property. Maybe you can persuade the Town to reroute the service line so that it conforms to national electrical safety standards.

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mmjPatient22 3 years, 5 months ago

Scott-

I don't think that the police need his craziness in their reports. It's all been laid out right here. Should it ever be needed in a competency trial, there's more than enough here to suffice as evidence.

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Eric J. Bowman 3 years, 5 months ago

"That is just too much. So they are friends with locals, have their own kid and people are unwilling to let their kids play outside? Well, that's is just stupid."

You can raise your kid how you see fit, Scott, but I haven't noticed you bringing her by to play with the kids running in and out of the growing facilities (yet one more reason the community is up in arms). As to craziness, given the number of vehicles shuttling back and forth all day every day, with trailers, and people in and out, I'd say it would be crazy for parents to let their kids run around on Sharp Ave like they used to before you converted your properties to cultivation -- twice the traffic. That's why industrial operations aren't permitted in residential areas...

Especially since everyone saw those folks having their beer bust in the middle of Sharp Ave the other day, with their open containers in full view of conspicuous OCPD and RCSO surveillance, while driving around hauling a trailer after drinking. I'm sure a lot of folks wished the cops had seen a little more of that (they just saw the drinking, not the driving while drinking), but it's hardly crazy to keep the kids from playing outside with this kind of irresponsible driving going on in the streets and alleyways. How many other places in Oak Creek were these "friends of locals" evicted from before they found you, Scott? So the neighbor complaints from where they moved to are to be expected, no?

"I hope you have provided written signed statements to the police about all of this so there is written record of your wild claims."

No need. I assure you the drunk driving generated lots of reports, which is what brought the cops by to witness the open-container drinking, most likely. What I'd be worried about if I were you, is the written record here of your wild claims...

"Wasn't long ago that you were fear mongering about how this was a commercial grow facility and would have no occupants. Now they have moved in and are living there so now the crazed fears is about armed drug dealers and rippers breaking in and stealing stuff."

Scott, what used to be a residential four-plex has tenants in one unit, and three dedicated commercial growing facilities. You said two tenants per unit, with twelve plants maximum. That statement is a real howler to everyone here who knows you know better, because we've seen that you know better. What a LIAR you are! That building is not a single-family dwelling, so as I keep saying and you know perfectly well is true, you've changed the use while thumbing your nose at the local procedure for change of use. You also know better about rippers, because the Curry has hardly been immune to doors being kicked in to rip off handfuls of prescription meds. Did you report the theft of materials from the basement of the old hospital last week, to the police? So stop discounting rational concerns of theft.

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Scott Wedel 3 years, 5 months ago

For a neighbor that is spending so much time observing, it is amazing how bad you are on the facts. People are currently living in three of the units and fourth will be once stuff can be stored in the basement which was suffering from water issues (which is why I was on the roof sealing around vent pipes).

As for any "theft" from the basement, if you were listening carefully then you'd have heard that $20 of heating duct laying on the floor disappeared and was replaced by far more valuable pieces of drywall metal edging. Or at least that is what I think happened. I am not so crazy to report that to the police. Too many locals helped them move and somebody probably thought it was unused materials and made a fair swap. It was just mildly annoying.

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Queenie 3 years, 5 months ago

I really don't want any part of any debate, I just have a real question. Why is it not treated like other medicine requiring a Rx and put through a pharmacy?

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rhys jones 3 years, 5 months ago

Because it is still a federal controlled substance.

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rhys jones 3 years, 5 months ago

And you can't prescribe what is still a crime, nor can pharmacies sell it.

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freerider 3 years, 5 months ago

ok pilot I'll stick to the facts here and leave out the rant

A little history lesson for Wiggins and the nay sayers

Harry J. Anslinger was our drug czar in 1937 and was bought and paid for by William Randolf Hearst ...Hearst wanted his papers printed on wood pulp not hemp ...Also bought and paid for by the DuPont family .They wanted nylon instead of hemp

Marijuana was made illegal to protect corporate profits in the name of Racism

some quote's from Harry

Harry J. Anslinger quotes: ...the primary reason to outlaw marijuana is its effect on the degenerate races.

Harry J. Anslinger quotes: Marihuana leads to pacifism and communist brainwashing.

Harry J. Anslinger quotes: There are 100,000 total marijuana smokers in the US, and most are Negroes, Hispanics, Filipinos and entertainers. Their Satanic music, jazz and swing, result from marijuana usage. This marijuana causes white women to seek sexual relations with Negroes, entertainers and any others.

Harry J. Anslinger quotes: Reefer makes darkies think they're as good as white men.

Harry J. Anslinger quotes Marijuana is an addictive drug which produces in its users insanity, criminality, and death.

Harry J. Anslinger quotes: You smoke a joint and you're likely to kill your brother.

Harry J. Anslinger quotes: Marijuana is the most violence-causing drug in the history of mankind.

Marijuana laws based on racism and lies - clearly an immoral and racist piece of legislation

This is the heart of our current day marijuana laws so I'll ask a straight up question to law enforcement why the over zealous approach to marijuana ?

Because it's the law ??

Sounds like a fascist police state attitude to me

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rhys jones 3 years, 5 months ago

If everybody got high, then everything would be cool, and we wouldn't need cops. It's self-preservation.

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mmjPatient22 3 years, 5 months ago

Rhys-

Spoken like a true scholar.

....and I'm the one that's casting a dim light on our side?

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rhys jones 3 years, 5 months ago

I'm not the one who departed from the subject (this time). I just answered a question. I didn't insult or taunt anybody. And that's the way it is, folks.

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rhys jones 3 years, 5 months ago

We're on the same page; the only thing that varies is our approach. Right, mmj?

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rhys jones 3 years, 5 months ago

We've got 'em WAY outnumbered already. I wanted to keep them open to suggestion, and not alienate them with circular reasoning, begging the question, arguing to authority, invalid premises, illogical conclusions, or worst of all, getting personal. These are the tactics we face, and I'd like to keep it on a higher plane. Make them think logically, and not emotionally.

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Scott Wedel 3 years, 5 months ago

"Sounds like a fascist police state attitude to me"

And there is the critical flaw in your logic. As was so clearly demonstrated when Oak Creek had Chief Russ and Officer Foster, there is a large number of people that enjoy fascist police states that harass the people that need to be run out of town.

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rhys jones 3 years, 5 months ago

So have your vote. Maybe it WON'T be a waste of taxpayer dollars. Bets?

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freerider 3 years, 5 months ago

Scott

Marijuana was clearly made illegal by white racist bigots to protect corporate profits by spreading lies and blaming blacks for the downfall of society

This is a hate crime and you see know comparisons to NAZI Germany and Hitler

AKA fascists

you know nothing of this subject

WIGGINS and his brown shirt task force enjoy busting pot heads way too much

they are as over zealous as the Nazi's were in killing jews

The brown shirts do this in the name of the law

A law that should never have been passed in the first place

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Eric J. Bowman 3 years, 5 months ago

"How's that foot taste?"

Get over yourself. You're assuming I believe Scott, who thinks people around here (well, people in general) are idiots, but he's not fooling anyone.

"I wanted to keep them open to suggestion, and not alienate them with circular reasoning, begging the question, arguing to authority, invalid premises, illogical conclusions, or worst of all, getting personal."

What about by failing to keep it out of the public view? Even uber-liberal-about-pot Holland requires pot be kept from public view, and so many of the legalization arguments revolve around keeping government out of what folks do in the privacy of their own homes. The potheads get upset at the prohibitionists who want to impose their morals and lifestyle choices on others, but fail to understand that walking around blazing up while growing plants in full view amounts to the same thing in the other direction.

What my community used to have, was peace and harmony based on mutual respect between neighbors with diverse backgrounds, beliefs and lifestyles. This community "wa" has been shattered by those outsiders determined to impose their pro-legalization views on others, regardless of the law; anyone who doesn't want their children exposed to these activities being carried on in full view of the public is, as Scott said above, an idiot.

Well, that's an extremist position every bit as disrespectful to others' beliefs as outright prohibition, and not one that's supported by existing law. Imposing his urban-planning will on the community and insisting that anyone who doesn't like it is an idiot, is why Scott is persona non grata in this neighborhood right now. What did my neighbors ever do to him, to merit such disrespect?

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mmjPatient22 3 years, 5 months ago

Eric-

Have you even gone over and tried to introduce yourself to your neighbors? Or are you just held-up at your window with your binoculars and log-book?

"The potheads get upset at the prohibitionists who want to impose their morals and lifestyle choices on others, but fail to understand that walking around blazing up while growing plants in full view amounts to the same thing in the other direction."

This is honestly what you believe? I would think that a "pothead" trying to impose their morals and lifestyle choices on someone would be doing a lot more than walking with a smoke. If that's really the comparison you're trying to make, then shouldn't the "potheads" be putting the non-potheads in jail for not smoking? I'd say, much more actually, that the prohibitionists have/are imposing their morals and lifestyle ideals on, not only cannabis users, but everyone else around them too. Stop trying to tell us that we're criminals because we like cannabis.

And I think what Scott is getting at is....again, what exactly are these children witnessing? Murders? Rapes? Robberies? Muggings? Racism? Any hate-crimes? Any violence whatsoever?

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mmjPatient22 3 years, 5 months ago

And you sure do raise a big stink about kids, for not being a parent.

I'd be much more interested in the opinions of an actual parent from that neighborhood.

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Scott Wedel 3 years, 5 months ago

Freerider, ??? I know what fascism is.

Presumably everyone says fascism is bad because that was Hitler and Mussolini. But when practiced by Chief Russ in Oak Creek then it had supporters. Instead of being a police state without the rule of law persecuting Jews, gypsies and homosexuals, it was a stated goal to drive the bar crowd out of town. So people that didn't drive home the expected route were pulled over. So someone that blew a 0 on the breath analyzer on a subzero night and not dressed warmly was still made to take a roadside sobriety test until she was physically no longer to continue. And this was okay with a significant number of people because it was directed against the bar crowd that they thought needed to driven out of town.

mmjpatient22, Well, with all of the lies that have been spread then obviously neighboring parents are concerned and upset. The most vocal neighbor has persistently lied about it being a commercial grow center with hundreds of plants.

So it will take time to overcome the lies.

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Scott Wedel 3 years, 5 months ago

"What my community used to have, was peace and harmony ..."

Yeah, most recent Town Board meeting had a letter from the police officer to the mayor noting that a police commissioner hadn't talked to him for months and the fire dept held a large scale training exercise at the school without inviting him.

Yeah, most recent Town Board meeting had Sheriff Wiggins reading a letter from an US Attorney and giving legal advice as if he was the Town's Attorney.

While considering a land use application, a deranged planning board member is allowed to go off and rant about a building on the other side of town.

Yeah, Town had Chief Russ and nearly a year of controversy including censuring the mayor on a 4-3 vote after a motion to consider talking to Sheriff's dept for police coverage failed by same 4-3 vote.

Yeah, Town had an electoral sweep of mayor and trustees on a "Citizen Down" campaign.

Politics in Oak Creek have been very divisive for years.

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rhys jones 3 years, 5 months ago

yvb, ex, free, jj -- As the self-assigned moderator of this discussion -- a job I have handled with varying levels of competence -- I give you guys the award for sticking to the subject, keeping your comments brief, and not getting personal or using this venue as your personal soapbox for a highly-charged emotional appeal. Way to go, guys!!

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mmjPatient22 3 years, 5 months ago

Well, in lieu of formal recognition from my peers, I guess I'll just press on.

This is the kind of change that we'll all keep pushing for. This isn't the solution, but it's a start. Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court has ruled that the mere odor of burning cannabis is NOT ENOUGH to suffice as reason for an officer to have someone step out of their car.

http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2011/04/massachusetts_sjc_ruling_weake.html

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Scott Wedel 3 years, 5 months ago

Regarding the Massachusetts ruling, the key is that their voters decriminalized less than 1 ounce of mj so it is now a civil offense, not a criminal misdemeanor. So if the smell is evidence of a civil offense then that does not give the police the right to take actions that are in response to a criminal offense. Note that the officers came across two guys in a parked car (in front of a fire hydrant, also a civil infraction) and didn't pull the car over. So the officers didn't know if the guys in the car had driving it and so were not checking for DUID.

Anyway it does not apply to other states because it was a state court making a decision based upon particular state laws.

It might actually be an important decision because it would appear to allow people in Massachusetts to smoke in their houses without the police being able to claim they observed criminal activity. Thus, Massachusetts police observing someone smoking in their home would not be grounds for a search warrant.

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Eric J. Bowman 3 years, 5 months ago

"Well, with all of the lies that have been spread then obviously neighboring parents are concerned and upset. The most vocal neighbor has persistently lied about it being a commercial grow center with hundreds of plants."

People are concerned and upset about what they've seen with their own eyes, and from talking to their neighbors who have seen the same thing -- nothing to do with rumors. Yeah, I'm the only one who's said online things which aren't a secret to anyone who lives here, to point out that we all saw Scott out there on plant-moving day and aren't buying his bull.

"Politics in Oak Creek have been very divisive for years."

Don't change the subject, I'm not talking about politics, I'm talking about people living together as a community. We have Christian conservatives here, but unlike Colorado Springs, when the Wiccan gal moved into one of Dick's properties there were no candlelight vigils or daylight holy-water assaults to drive her away. Sometimes my stereo gets too loud, but not too often, so nobody's ever called the cops on me (which I can't say about Steamboat). What I'm saying is, nobody around here is intolerant, so if we were talking about handfuls of plants being kept from public view by some patients there wouldn't be any ruckus (which is why I suggest just such an ordinance).

But just how much tolerance can reasonably be expected "even in Oak Creek"? The only zealots around here forcing their morals on others, are those who insist marijuana be fully legalized with no restrictions on where or how much can be grown by flaunting their activities in plain sight -- or providing sanction for those who do by playing the ol' shell game with multiple rental properties. What's going on next door to me may be the highest-profile example (no binoculars, or effort to look, required), but it's just that, an example of what's going on all over town (not just in places Scott owns) rather than an isolated case. So I'd say that makes this the right time to have a discussion about establishing reasonable limits...

"Listen, here's the story, short and simple. 'Prohibition does not work, never did work, never will work'!"

That isn't the topic. Unless you're saying that subjecting pot to the same sort of regulations and restrictions we subject alcohol and tobacco to, amounts to prohibition? OK, yeah, I get it, prohibition = bad. But how much pot should folks be allowed to grow, and where? Given that it's still a federal crime, do you believe it's prudent to exercise any restraint whatsoever, or that flagrant violation of CO law is the best way to bring about relisting cannabis as Schedule II?

BTW, under CO decriminalization, two ounces is a $50 civil misemeanor for non-patients. Unless a transaction is involved, in which case it's still a criminal felony.

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rhys jones 3 years, 5 months ago

It's not a misdemeanor, it's a petty offense. Max fine $100, ever. Paraphernalia too.

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mmjPatient22 3 years, 5 months ago

Wow! Wait a gal-darn minute! You mean Eric doesn't know what he's talking about?

And that last post from him came pretty early this morning. Actually, about 44 minutes after 4:20 am. Say Eric, what time did you get up this morning, 4:15? .....4:19?

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rhys jones 3 years, 5 months ago

Further clarification: It is not a civil matter either, and a petty offense is not a "crime" by definition.

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mmjPatient22 3 years, 5 months ago

. And you have to wonder....if the federal drug busters were really out to make a difference in the prevalence of cannabis in any given community, wouldn't a logical first step to be to outlaw and shutdown every head-shop they could find?

I find it very hard to believe that they're actually trying to make a difference. It seems obvious to me that they would be doing a lot more, or at least have a more successful strategy, if they were really trying to eradicate cannabis from the face of the earth. If that has truly been their mission from their inception as an occupation, then where's all the progress. It seems more to me that they allow enough of it to carry on so that they can still make a living off of busting people for it, while still providing enough evidence to be able to state that they're trying to make a difference.

It's a big frigin' scheme.

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mmjPatient22 3 years, 5 months ago

And even if anyone actually mustered the courage to try to fully eradicate cannabis, there's not a chance in hell that they'd ever be able to pull it off. There are too many thousands of home-growers in this country to ever allow that to happen.

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