Chuck McConnell: Illegal immigration trash trails
Wednesday, October 20, 2010
Steamboat Springs — I attended a “meet and greet” last week for state Rep. Randy Baumgardner. One of the subjects discussed at the meeting was Baumgardner’s personally funded trip last August to the border of Arizona and Mexico. Baumgardner showed a video depicting several of the trails used by illegal immigrants within the boundary of the United States. A large number of those trails were within state and federal park systems.
As I watched the video, I became shocked to see the sheer volume of trash strewn by those traversing the trails. The amount of trash has been estimated at millions of tons. I even saw a large number of instances of trash being deposited as these immigrants walked along.
I also was stunned at the nature of the trash which included, among other items, hypodermic needles, a variety of what appeared to be prescription drugs in plastic wrappers; backpacks, some of which ultimately proved to be filled with drugs including marijuana, cocaine and heroin; carpet; tires; gasoline cans; plastic items; nondegradable food wrap; plastic water bottles; and rotting food items.
Conservatives are sometimes painted as being indifferent or uncaring about the environment. I know a fairly large number of fiscal and social conservatives and this characterization is absolutely unfair and untrue of my entire cohort. I personally care very much about the environment.
An American does not have to be an “environmentalist” in the Greenpeace mold to be sickened by these images; I certainly was.
Our state and federal governments spend hundreds of millions of dollars each year trying to keep our park systems and wilderness areas pristine.
The tons of trash and garbage that litter these immigration trails are expensive to taxpayers and pollute our precious scenic resources.
Although defiling our lands is only one of myriad issues not being addressed by our federal government on the issue of illegals transcending our border, it is one that cannot be ignored.
Our borders must be secured for reasons of national security.
Colorado lawmakers also must address the negative impacts the growing numbers of undocumented residents have on our state budget, especially as they face a billion-dollar shortfall next year.
Comments
beentheredonethat 2 years, 7 months ago
chuck, hire some people (job creation) and clean up the trash. make some money while doing the right thing. problem solved, next issue.
seeuski 2 years, 7 months ago
Typical answer from the hypocritical mind of the left. When private Citizens stood post at the AZ border in recent years they were called bigots. We now have the drug Cartel shooting and killing land owners and law Officers on our side of the border. We have the Federal Government posting signs telling Americans it is not safe to travel south of I-8. And we have the POTUS suing AZ for trying to stop this madness and beentheredonethat says that Chuck should go down with his imaginary rich buddies and clean it up himself. What a dumb statement. There are millions of tons of trash and the environment is being damaged, vegetation killed and along with the stress to the ecosystem is the stress to the animals that inhabit the many ranch's on the border. With the frequent gunfire and numerous illegals trampling through ranch fields the cows, goats and other animals are losing weight and are being stressed out. I guess these "usual" environmentalists will willingly turn the other cheek to this destruction while Obama is the boss, if it were Bush they would be rioting. "Arizona signs along I-8 warn of human, drug smuggling violence" http://thewesterner.blogspot.com/2010/09/arizona-signs-along-i-8-warn-of-human.html
Here is a video of your friends pouring into our Country, enjoy it as it is what you stand for. http://www.spypinholecamera.com/hidden-cameras-on-the-arizona-border-2-drugs-guns-and-850-illegal-aliens.html
Zed 2 years, 7 months ago
Sorry Chuck, This is classic political fear mongering - scare people with images so they get fired up and run to your party. "Our borders must be secured" is not a solution. When will someone propose realistic and comprehensive solutions to supporting Mexico and reversing the flood of people trying to escape? How about we stop allowing weapons to be smuggled and sold into Mexico? What can we do to stop the purchase of drugs from Mexico which in turn support the cartels? We are propping up governments in Iraq and Afghanistan(which no politicians will even mention) while a government in our own backyard is failing.
If you are sickened by these images, then you must also take issue with the trash all over our county and city roads. You ever take a look out of you car on the side of River Road or Elk River Rd? How about the roads around City Market? Downtown Denver? Those individuals trying to get into the US are in survival mode, what is the excuse for the locals and tourists that trash WZ? Check out the crap the druggies leave at Rita Valentine Park sometime.....
Interesting that Sharon Angle's political ad did not hit on this issue of illegals dropping syringes, it only depicted scary looking Latinos hiding behind a fence... or were they Canadians...
seeuski 2 years, 7 months ago
Zed, Are you suggesting that we ignore the evidence and allow this influx of illegals crossing the borders to continue unabated?
WOW!!
bellyup 2 years, 7 months ago
I-10 from Tucson to Phoenix has more trash along the road than anywhere else I've driven in the US. Those stinkin' ** must be catching rides the rest of the way in.
Zed 2 years, 7 months ago
seeuski, you are evidence of why our political system can't solve problems. Let's step back from the game of partisan hackery and act like reasonable people seeking reasonable solutions to complex problems. WOW, there is an idea!
No, I am not suggesting we allow an unabated flow of illegal immigrants despite what the numerous political tv ads might suggest. I proposed two possible ways of dealing with the issue, two more than Chuck McConnel could come up with. Illegals weapon smuggling into Mexico is a major source of arms for drug cartels, combined with the US demand to purchase drug products produced in Mexico. I would also like to see more scrutiny on businesses who seek out immigrant labor to save money. How much Colorado Business, both in agriculture and construction, uses immigrants with no papers Why do our own grocery stores in Steamboat rely on workers from outside the country(legally) while many in Routt county complain of not having work. Would a wall in Mexico solve these problems?
chuckmc 2 years, 7 months ago
Zed,
In the spirit of problem solving, I actually agree with you about the problem of money and guns going south across the border. In fact, increased border security must work both ways. With a secure border the flow of guns and money from cartel drug sales could also be slowed significantly.
And yes, employers need to be held accountable for employee citizenship.
What I don't understand is what you mean by "supporting Mexico". If you mean we should borrow more money from China and Japan and give it to Mexico that doesn't sound like a reasonable economic solution for US taxpayers.
cody heartz 2 years, 7 months ago
Great reporting Mr. McConnell. I can't wait to read your next article based on second hand information and unsubstantiated figures.
I wonder, did you see anything else in those videos? I only ask because I have it on good authority, and have personally heard--from a friend of a friend-- that illegal immigrants are causing the sky to fall. Were any of those backpacks you saw strewn about the desert filled with little pieces of sky?
I have no doubt that Randy Baumgardner's video was unbiased and edited in such a way that the facts were presented in a fair and sober manner. I applaud Mr. Baumgadner's work, it had never occurred to me that litter was actually caused by illegal immigration. You'd think that as these people crawled across the desert dying of dehydration they'd at least have the common courtesy to pick after themselves.
I hope we can fix this problem before any litter starts showing up in Routt county and the sky starts falling in northern Colorado as well.
seeuski 2 years, 7 months ago
I am just glad people like cody heartz and Zed are in the minority on this issue. For the rest of the Country we can see with our own eyes and we don't push our heads deeper in the sand when the truth stares at us. Arizona passed a law that did all the things Zed articulates and our own POTUS sued the state and a liberal Judge halted the bulk of the law. I would fix the problem simply by enforcing immigration laws, unlike the Fed is doing now, and I would send the Arizona state National Guard to the border and end the problem, PERIOD. No more guns that Zed claims would be smuggled south and no more drugs that Zed claims would be smuggled north. End of story. As far as those employing illegals, that was dealt with in the SB1070 law. Have a nice day, and don't forget to vote out the Progressives.
trump_suit 2 years, 7 months ago
The border could/should have been sealed by Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush or Obama.......... How can the issues of illegal immigration be fixed while it is still an escalating problem?
Arizona's SB1070 is a farce and probably not constitutional but the Feds need to clontrol this border. Immigration is a completely separate issue from controlling the borders and entrances to our own country. Yhe real question here is why have so many administrations ignored this continuing problem.
Looks to me like the Dems might do better than you expect See.
I encourage every single one of you to get out there and vote regardless of your party affiliation or beliefs. The more of you that express your opinion with a vote, the better our democracy becomes.
sledneck 2 years, 7 months ago
How would you treat your wife if you knew she could never leave you? You would treat her worse than if you knew she COULD and WOULD leave.
That is how the Fed is treating Arizona on the border issue.
Arizona should defy the Fed, nullifying their mandate, and move forward with the enforcement of its law and seal the border.
Ignoring screwed up federal mandates thereby nullifying them, while staying in the union is the remedy here... and elsewhere such as healthcare.
Scott Wedel 2 years, 7 months ago
The fundamental issue is that applying security at a border is difficult because it is long and there are ways to bypass it. Look at everything Israel is doing to try to control the borders of Gaza/Egypt that is not working and that is a short border. It is not that hard to tunnel to get around a wall and so on.
If we want to limit illegal immigration then we need to cut off the source of money that funds it - which is their ability to find work in the US. The biggest opponent of that solution are US businesses because that will increase the cost of labor. Even if they don't hire illegal workers the presence of illegal workers drives down the hourly wages of other workers. If our politicians weren't so bought and owned by corporations then maybe we could come up with an effective solution for illegal immigration.
If we want to do something about the drug cartels then we need to attack their source of cash as well. As long as we consume hundreds of tons of their marijuana for which we have decriminalized personal use because a majority of the population admits to having used at least once and about 5% report using it at least monthly then those drug cartels will have the resources to threaten Mexican law enforcement. It makes no sense to have decriminalized personal mj use while Federal laws keep production and distribution illegal and thus as a huge source of money for gangs.
So if Chuck were in favor of legalizing mj and penalizing employers of illegal workers then he'd be on the right track. I didn't see that in his letter.
seeuski 2 years, 7 months ago
Now we have an expert on the Israeli Palestinian terrorist issue comparing our border issues with those of the Israelis. Are you kidding me Scott? Since Israel built the wall and set up checkpoints NO not one civilian bus has been bombed, nor have we seen the previous market place bombings that were so common. The terrorists goal is to kill Jews and are ready to die doing it. The illegal immigrants coming here are coming for the free services that the Progressives have been providing along with low paying jobs and we now are also seeing that in some more Liberal bastions they are using illegals to canvas in ethnic neighborhoods to help get out the vote. The drugs that they bring across are part of their passage fee or tax to the cartels who control OUR borders. I said it clearly above and I will say it again, use our National Guard for what they were intended to "guard our Nation" and end these border crossings. It is National security and I know you guys are all for that, right? Chirp, chirp.
And Scott, are you insinuating that the legal mj dispensaries are getting their stash from the Cartels? Hmmm. Lets just close the dam borders and stop this jive talk.
seeuski 2 years, 7 months ago
Hey guys, you want to go after employers who hire illegals? Well here is the best place to start, why don't you get a few of your friends together, as beentheredonewhat suggested to Chuck, and go after this Onemerica votes group who are hiring illegals as reported by left wing Salon.com?
http://www.salon.com/wires/allwires/2010/10/22/D9J0L5OO0_us_illegal_immigrants_vote_drive/index.html
There you go.
sledneck 2 years, 7 months ago
Scott is right. Making business stop hiring illegals should be at the top of the list. And the mj situation does not help either. All drugs should be legalized. It's nobodys business what I/you grow, eat, drink, smoke.
Another step would be to make it illegal for anyone without legal status to wire money out of the country. Businesses and citizens are forbidden from moving significant sums offshore without paying up. Yet millions of illegals are effectively doing the same thing with impunity. Does anyone realize how many illegals walk into banks and places like Western Union on a typical Friday afternoon?
But lets not forget the incentives for politicians who see a growing herd of dependant voters.
With helicopters, forward looking infa-red, night vision technology, dogs, machine guns, land mines, snipers, etc you people are telling me that a nation that put a man on the moon can not fortify its border against a bunch of plundering third-world banditos? Bull!
brian ferguson 2 years, 7 months ago
my illegal neighbor drives around with her anchor baby, with no licence and california tags..for two and a half years now. they told me after the delivery...it was soooo expensive, I asked how much and they said 500 dollars...sounds cheap to me.
Zed 2 years, 7 months ago
" With helicopters, forward looking infa-red, night vision technology, dogs, machine guns, land mines, snipers, etc you people are telling me that a nation that put a man on the moon can not fortify its border against a bunch of plundering third-world banditos? Bull!"
sledneck - this sounds just like the failed "war on drugs" and "war on Iraq and Afghanistan" - when will America learn that complex problems can not be solved by brute force? My point is that there are more effective ways to decrease illegal immigration than militarizing our border. There seems to be agreement that putting pressure on businesses to not hire illegal immigrants would be a useful tool, but think of how many industries and their low priced products depend on labor that costs far less than the basic level put forth by the US. Slaughter houses come to mind as well as all of our agriculture. How many ranches in Routt County bring in illegal labor from South of the Border to work? I have seen quite a few come through HDN who can't speak English.
Would you pay $2 more for strawberries at City Market if it was "legal worker certified"? Wal Mart seems to be another perfect example of how people complain about declining manufacturing in the US and the rise of China, but how many would be willing to pay more for a US produced product? I don't see many politicians jumping on this because it would make our everyday products more expensive and jeopardize the support of big business that keeps corrupt politicians in office.
Zed 2 years, 7 months ago
To quote a well known song on this issue, "You can't be a pimp and a prostitute too".
Zed 2 years, 7 months ago
Seeuski/others, how many businesses in Steamboat do you estimate depend on illegal labor? Construction? Restaurants? Ski area? Ranches? Landscapers? Roofers?
I think illegal immigration is wrong on a number of levels, but I often wonder what is it about this that issue that makes people most concerned? The loss of a legal employee? The business taking advantage of US labor laws to pay a substandard wage? Or do they make you feel unsafe?
As to supporting Mexico, I just question the decision making when US troops and resources are committed wars in Iraq and Afghanistan under the banner of making us safer. It seems fair to ask is a collapsed Mexico controlled by warlords more of a threat than a country controlled by a dictator in Iraq. We are occupying and propping up two countries with no definition of success and loss of concern from the American people....just sayin.
sledneck 2 years, 7 months ago
Zed, There are few problems in this life which can't be resolved with the proper application of high explosives. And absolutely, I could live without strawberries longer than Mexico could live without US dollars. Lets see who blinks first!
sledneck 2 years, 7 months ago
Zed, You are confusing the issue a bit with the Wal-Mart analogy. China doing our manufacturing does not involve illegals trespassing into our country. Our manufacturing jobs could go to the moon and our security would not be in jeopardy.
On the contrary, an open border allowing who knows what kind of weapons into our country is a direct threat to our national security... BIG DIFFERENCE.
When they finally get a nuke through (and they will) maybe some of the illegal apologists will understand... but most will find a way to blame Buuuuuusssssshhhhhh.
Zed 2 years, 7 months ago
Sled - thought you might appreciate this picture of Mexican marijuana going up in smoke. They are not hauling this across the desert, it is coming straight through the border crossings, every day. I see the import of drugs which prop up drug cartels across the border as a bigger security issue than some Mexican who wants to come pick strawberries.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-11595457
How much weed smoked in the US helps support chaos in Mexico? Is your weed local or Mexican? Do you patronize local businesses that have illegal immigrants working the kitchen and cleaning the dishes? Do you shop at WalMart and buy cheap Chinese products sold to you by workers from Senegal and then complain about the loss of US jobs because of the government? My point is Americans need to take a hard look at themselves to seek solutions, let's stop being hypocrites and hiding behind false solutions like building a 1,969 mile wall.
sledneck 2 years, 7 months ago
The drugs going up in smoke in that photo did NOT "come "straight through the border crossing". On the contrary, they were STOPPED at a border crossing.
Sure they are more serious than strawberry pickers. What about the strawberry picker with the nuke in his backpack?
Jobs making widgets and picking strawberries? I thought Americans didn't want those jobs. Aren't we better off giving those jobs to Senegal? Wal-Mart is great. When I shop there I save my family money. That keeps the $$$ I save in the local economy. The worker in senegal is employed (of his own volition)making $4 / day instead of $4 / month scavenging at the landfill. The worker certainly considers this a better deal than the landfill he left to go to Wal-Marts factory. Eventually, the worker in Senegal will want an American made laptop, car, etc.
seeuski 2 years, 7 months ago
For Zed to insinuate that drugs are NOT being carried by human mules through the desert is a joke. How many videos and reports will the left wing ignore before the violence reaches their doorstep?
cindy constantine 2 years, 7 months ago
HEY SUS -NEWS FLASH- people are allowed to disagree with you and express their opinions as well. I am afraid you are going to have a stroke before I can see-u-ski. Look at how white the slopes are today and I need some pointers from you this season. : )
Guess what the truth really is. If the elephants take the senate back from the donkeys, we will have 2 years of lame duck, stale mate, finger pointing, aisle shouting, stuck in the muck for a Senate with absolutely nothing being accomplished except higher debt, fewer jobs more foreclosures, etc. Then in 2 years we get to do it all again with the telemarketers interrupting my dinner every night for 6 weeks, my mailbox full of propaganda, negative advertising in every media presence, yard signs which trash the town, etc. Gee, I can't wait . . . . .
cindy constantine 2 years, 7 months ago
BTW I am sick of seeing Sarah next to your name. How about a nice picture of the Liberty Bell, Statue of Liberty, the Flag or even an apple pie for a change.
seeuski 2 years, 7 months ago
OK Cindy, now you get two great Ladies for the price of one and where have I said people can't express their opinions? Thanks much.
Zed 2 years, 7 months ago
That Marijuana was only the tip of the iceberb: 2006 ABCNews article -
"Each day it is estimated that more than 6,000 trucks carrying 40 percent of all Mexican exports come through Laredo. The cartels use the trucks, the warehouses and the interstate to move most of the cocaine, marijuana and methamphetamine that reaches the United States. It's a booming business worth $10 million a day, according to a senior agent at the Drug Enforcement Agency. By latest estimates, 92 percent of the cocaine coming into the U.S. comes in through the Southwest border," said the DEA's Rick Saldana."
A wall ain't going to stop the drug trade as long as American's keep buying it.
Mexican's with nukes, that is taking fear mongering to a whole new level? If a terrorist really wants to hurt the US, I don't doubt they could go to our northern border(5,521 miles versus 1,969 to the South) and slip right through. Do we need a wall there as well for national security? Use your head and let's really tackle the issues that pose the biggest security threat, because someone coming through the deserts of the South ain't coming to blow us up, they are coming to live the American dream like millions of immigrants in our history. And I guess just like all of the immigrants in our history, they are being made the scapegoats for our problems.
Zed 2 years, 7 months ago
Your excuse for shopping at Wal-Mart is lame. All of the Sengalese at WalMart and CityMarket are here for a fixed period of time and all the money they make is going straight back with them. I don't have a problem with it, but how is that any different than Mexican's wiring money back? I guess under your logic, once we build a wall we will certainly have to grow our temporary Mexican work visa program so we can keep exploiting their cheap labor to keep money in your pocket, lord knows you need it.
As the largest company in the world, Wal-Mart exudes enough force over manufacturers for the cheapest prices possible, so they have no choice but to outsource labor to countries with no labor laws. Wal-Mart is a direct line to China and it is far more than widgets, plain and simple. Keep shopping America out of jobs, your country thanks you....
Zed 2 years, 7 months ago
seeuski,
I am fascinated how you will ignore entire comments/questions raised and only pick the little bit that you can twist out of context. It reminds me of cable news....which makes me want to vomit. I think you should share your posts with family and coworkers for peer review.
Zed 2 years, 7 months ago
Sled - Do you ride a Polaris or Artic Cat? I just read that Polaris is moving all production to Mexico. At least people buying these sleds at low prices can keep that money in the local economy right? American's probably did not want those jobs anyways...
"Polaris is building a factory in Mexico and moving it’s manufacturing jobs there. On July 20, they reported that their sales rose 15 percent and their earnings rose 47 percent for the second quarter in 2010. They also confirmed that they would be moving to Mexico so that they could make a bigger profit."
http://www.dunnconnect.com/articles/2010/10/23/letters/doc4cc32bd8cc638550095292.txt
mavis 2 years, 7 months ago
umm ZED .. if you can get a coupon in the new coupon book for MJ.. how do you consider them scapegoats??You can get 2 for 1 treats and discounts on an ounce.... or a mmj treat?? I do not see local pharmacy's advertising 2 for one on pain killers or pink eye drops.... give me freakin break .... this is out of control. I think I will buy a sled from the company that does not support this type of spending. I am a little bit OLD SCHOOL so I will wait to see what I agree with!
seeuski 2 years, 7 months ago
Zed, Because you choose your facts as you see fit and quote Liberal sources like ABC news, I will post a link to a report that is from the early years of the Bush ERA so you can blame Bush. The report shows that Arabs have been penetrating our lax borders while our Government languishes in politics. Your silly statement that we are calling Mexicans terrorists shows your stubbornness to seek the truth instead of crap that helps your open border argument. Portraying those of us who see this open border issue as a National security threat on many levels as bigoted against Mexicans is a lie that serves no purpose except to win over the minds of the illegals by creating fear.
"Arab terrorists 'are getting into the US over Mexican border" http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1191754/posts
The threat continues today and this while Obama sits in the Oval office so neither he nor Bush dealt with this problem, take your pick. "Terrorist Threat On Border With Mexico" http://www.wsbtv.com/news/23434381/detail.html http://www.wsbtv.com/video/23438021/index.html
WSBtv Atlanta seems to be a mainstream media outlet and not a nauseating cable source, go wash your mouth out.
Scott Wedel 2 years, 7 months ago
So all these terrorists have been invading the USA for over 6 years? So what's their terrorist plot? To keep on waiting and bankrupt the US government by applying for social security and medicare?
Zed 2 years, 7 months ago
seeuski, I do not support open borders and I am open to many perspectives on how to deal with the Southern border. What I do support is a comprehensive solution to our border issues that considers 1)the role of undocumented workers in our economy, 2)the success or failure of the Mexican state, 3)our illegal sale of weapons into Mexico 4)Our involvement in Human trafficking/explotation through southern border and 4)the illicit drug trade that continues to fuel the drug cartels across South America and Mexico. Building a wall and sending more troops will not address any of the above issues anymore than sending more troops to Iraq will solve the problems there. Do you have a border in mind similar to the border between south and north Korea?
The assumption you are making from the linked story is that because those people are muslims/arabs they must be terrorists? And then the following story on that website is an article titled ""HEIL HITLER" Now Upgraded to "ALLAH AKBAR?" followed by excerpts from the Koran depicting muslims as violent killers. This kind of generalizing is idiocy. I don't doubt for a second that people from every country in the world want a piece of the American dream, wouldn't you want to get here any way you could if you were living in the third world?
Would you agree that if the Mexican border was sealed, the Northern border which is three times as long and largely forested could be easily be penetrated by "terrorists"? On the topic of national security, if a terrorist really wants to hurt America they will find a way. We should be asking why hatred of America is on the rise, especially when we had so much international support and empathy following 9-11.
Stop speaking from your politics and start thinking with your head.
seeuski 2 years, 7 months ago
You are a hopeless case Zed. Your last statement would be good advice to yourself. The truth is staring you in the face and you continue to point the finger solely at Americans as the problem. Please provide the info on USA weapons sales to drug Cartels and maybe while you are at it you will see that it is the illegals who are transporting weapons back. I will NOT give up my second amendment rights for your upside down theories.
I do have a strategy for the border problem and I have expressed it enough. I don't have any misconceptions about what the goal of the Jihadists are who have been, and still are, crossing into the US and neither does Homeland Security. But you do. Bad bad USA, good good illegals.
I am sick of the "Americas chickens have come home to roost" mindset you espouse here.
trump_suit 2 years, 7 months ago
If I have to compare the current discussion between See and Zed, I know which side brings more intellect to the table.
Zed 2 years, 7 months ago
Article linked below addressing illegal weapons flow to Mexican cartels from Newsweek, interesting read. You can keep your guns, I have no problem with that, but selling grenade launchers into Mexico does not seem to be helping our cause. It is not cowardice to take responsibility for your contribution to the problem, be critical of yourself before you are critical of others.
http://www.newsweek.com/blogs/declassified/2010/05/17/is-the-flow-of-u-s-weapons-to-mexican-drug-cartels-increasing-under-obama.html
I am not pointing fingers at anyone, I think America can rise to the challenge of tackling these complicated issues if they see past people like yourself who seek to dumb down the discussion and hide behind emotional arguments instead of facts. Everyone is angry, everyone is fired up, that is great, let's use that energy to seek solutions instead of demonizing, scapegoating, and going down the old road of partisan hackery.
seeuski 2 years, 7 months ago
To my Latte drinking highly educated adversaries like trump-suit who have NO solutions except the status quo, from the very Newsweek article as posted by Zed.
"The shorter the time to crime, the higher the likelihood that the gun was bought directly from a U.S. gun store by “straw buyers” or other drug-cartel operatives and then smuggled across the border into Mexico.'
Gee, smuggled across the border.
"Such entreaties are expected to be repeated this week when Calderón arrives in Washington for an official visit that includes a state dinner at the White House on Wednesday night and an address to a joint session of Congress."
......And then Calderon insulted the state of Arizona in the well of the Senate for the very laws that would help stop the flow across the border, hypocrites.
Bottom line to me is that unless the US Government treats this issue like Mexico is and sends in the troops to stop the Cartel activities we shall have this increasingly troubling issue to argue over for the foreseeable future. These Cartels learn to outsmart law enforcement and will get their needed weapons one way or another, why kid yourselves to believe that our Government can stop what looks to be legal weapons purchases by straw buyers when they can't do anything efficiently? Name one.
Enforce the borders and then we can work on the amnesty that you want for the illegals, but we have to stop the invasion.
By the way, wasn't Newsweek recently sold for a dollar? What a great source,LOL! Actually I found this story as reported to be reasonable and believable, figure that. Maybe that's what fetched the dollar sale price.
Zed 2 years, 7 months ago
"Enforce the borders" is not a solution. You make the point yourself: "These Cartels learn to outsmart law enforcement and will get their needed weapons one way or another, why kid yourselves to believe that our Government can stop what looks to be legal weapons purchases". - Why kid yourself into thinking that the cost of militarizing 1,969 miles of border is going to solve the problem trading guns and drugs?
All it takes is a few border crossing guards to get paid off by the cartels and smuggle away!
It is fair to ask whether committing military resources and money to the border will be as effective as addressing businesses that employee undocumented workers, gun shops making illegal sales, etc. If we focus on militarizing the border and the Mexican state fails or descends more will we then have to keep those troops there permanently just like Iraq and Afghanistan? Why not focus on solutions that look long term and are mutually beneficial instead of jumping to brute force as we have in recent history.
The Tea Party platform of cutting all government expenses, keeping the military as the largest part of our budget and building a militarized southern border strikes me as very similar to North Korea's philosophy of government.
sledneck 2 years, 7 months ago
Hey Zed, I heard about Polaris moving to Mexico too. Too bad I guess. I'm sure Polaris is not going to be the last to go. No way will I let it affect my decision which sled to buy. Whichever one is best quality for the $$$, no hesitation.
So which came first, the chicken or the egg? Did Polaris move to Mexico AFTER years of business in America proved increasingly unfruitful; or did they start out in Mexico, never having given America a chance?
Atlas is shrugging, Zed; right before your eyes. Over 50 companies left or announced they are leaving California for Utah this year. Intel says it will save 80% on its electric bills. California has its head up its ass. Utah is freindly to business and freedom. Hmmm?
Tea Party like North Korea? Hee hee hee. Thats a good one Zed. You guys really don't know what pure evil is. I think it's cause you're standing too close. Can't see the forest for the trees kind-of thing.
seeuski 2 years, 7 months ago
Zed, There is a big difference between big, limited and no Government. Limited being what is allowed by the Constitution, which we need to remain loyal to in order to survive the Progressives assault on America. And I would be remiss if I didn't answer your incorrect assumption that the Cartels would outsmart our Military,would never happen ain't going to happen and can't happen. It is Government enforcement of some imaginary new gun store laws that you prescribe that is a joke. This is a violent group of people who will only be thwarted with superior force and it is OUR Country we, the POTUS, should be protecting as prescribed by the Constitution.
Zed 2 years, 7 months ago
"So which came first, the chicken or the egg? Did Polaris move to Mexico AFTER years of business in America proved increasingly unfruitful; or did they start out in Mexico, never having given America a chance?"
It is money, plain and simple. Why pay an American a living wage, respect environmental standards and respect labor laws when you can go to China, Mexico and India. Out of sight, out of mind. The mass exodus of American companies has been fueled by American's insatiable demand for cheap and big business pursuit of profit at any cost. A hardworking American will always cost more than slow working foreigners paid $1 a day. And I am sure quality affects your everyday purchases at Wal-Mart too.
"And I would be remiss if I didn't answer your incorrect assumption that the Cartels would outsmart our Military,would never happen ain't going to happen and can't happen."
Seeuski, that is some classic hubris, exactly what left us screwed in Iraq and Afghanistan. How could a bunch of lowly Afghanis and Iraqis beat the greatest military in the world? Well, depending on how you rewrite history, it will always be mission accomplished, even though now we are talking with the Taliban to seek a truce.
Zed 2 years, 7 months ago
"This is a violent group of people who will only be thwarted with superior force and it is OUR Country we, the POTUS, should be protecting as prescribed by the Constitution."
Yep, let's all pound our chests and yell "America, f' yeah". We can "shock and awe" the cartels with our greatness and mastery of weaponry, then be greeted as liberators by the Mexican people. Brilliant! There is sound historical evidence proving American show of force works in every possible situation.
And the last thing you want to do is look weak or have open debate on your actions ....... because then the terrorists/undocumented workers/socialist liberal lap dogs have won.
sledneck 2 years, 7 months ago
Hey Zed, I enjoy conversing with you. I expect a company worth investing in is absolutely going to put profit ahead of other concerns. Do you know what they call a company that doesn't concern itself primarily with proffits? You call it bankrupt. If I own shares of a company, the day they stop showing not only a profit, but ever-increasing profits, that is the morinng I sell on the open and never look back.
One telling phrase you use is "environmental standards". The word "standard" implies wide recognition. This is not the case across the world when it comes to environmental issues. And it likely never will be, because starving people don't give a rats ass about a hole in the ozone or how much ice is at the north pole. You care more than me. I care more than some but less than others. Chineese and Mexicans would be damn fools to let the AL Gore speech stop them from getting out of the hell they are in.
Another telling phrase is "labor laws". What business is it of any third party's if I enter into a contract to work for someone for $1/ hr? Or to work without a hard-hat? Or to work 80 hrs. for no overtime? It's nobodys damn business but mine. That, Zed is real freedom. Most Americans can't handle it anymore but that ain't my fault.
Zed 2 years, 7 months ago
America has been down the road you describe, the days of trashing our rivers and land, exploiting child labor, allowing unsafe work conditions are for the most part outlawed despite continued challenges to do away with them. Why are they gone? Because American's decided that as a country we would have standards for how someone operates a business and how they treat their workers, these being just as important as profit. And America has profited despite having to do business with rules. To think that business in America has been somehow burdened by these regulations is naive, business, especially big business has always found ways to influence decision making and loopholes to continue their profits. Why is so much money pouring into our current elections from big business? Why does the Tea Party turn a blind eye to money to politics?
For American businesses to circumvent these standards and American people to think that they are buying something that was made under reasonable standards is not right. If people really knew the whole story behind the manufacturing process of a product/food/etc would they still buy it? I say no.
If they saw their computer waste being dumped into a third world country and then small children picking through it to extract the metals. If they saw a whole town of workers unemployed from Polaris so a company can save money. When does textile manufacturing in China become slave labor and would you care then if that shirt you purchased was made in those conditions?
I am not a crazy commie who wants businesses over regulated, but I do feel like America has been this beacon of fair business and now companies and America is losing sight of that. Treating someone right in business is more important than saving $$$ on a widget. And this comes back to undocumented workers, I feel like those speaking loudest about the border turn a blind eye to the fact that large parts of our economy depend on this labor pool which can be marginalized. Do a google search for "slaughterhouse undocumented workers".
mtroach 2 years, 7 months ago
Anyone want to touch on why the republican party fights for unrestricted business but is so protective of our labor market it will not allow the free flow of labor accross our southern boarder? We don't need to seal the boarder as much as we need to find a way to get illegal workers, legal, and into the tax system so they can pay taxes and support our government's programs like most working americans. Sealing the boarder will just force more companies to move production out of the usa and into areas where they can reep the benifits for a lower priced workforce. We need reform not military force.
Scott Wedel 2 years, 7 months ago
I suggest that it is hard and expensive to seal borders especially when there is so much money to be made by a successful crossing. The current worker verification system is a farce because it is so slow that an employer can accept documentation that other employees are pretty sure is false, and wait for notification and so on, and by the time the employer has to fire the undocumented worker then the tourist season is over.
In a choice between an illegal worker and a legal worker at the same hourly wage then the legal worker would get the job. But the illegal worker will accept less which is why businesses love the current system of illegal workers driving down the wage scales. And it is Republicans and Democrats that are both bought and paid for by corporate America and so are unwilling to pass a serious worker verification system. The difference between the two parties is that Republicans want to appeal unskilled white US workers by saying their problems are due to illegal Mexicans while Democrats want the Hispanic vote and promise immigration reform. Note that neither promise a worker reform system that will stop illegal workers from being able to work a job for months.
sledneck 2 years, 7 months ago
Yes Zed, The days of child labor and rivers that are so polutted they burn are over because Americans collectively decided these things needed to stop. Good!
The problem is that Americans continue to collectively decide that they want our society to be cleaner and life to be easier. Farther and farther they take us. (progressive) The thing few want to acknowledge is that in our persuit of utopia we, as a nation, have left not only most of the world behind, but we are starting to leave REALITY behind as well.
As with most things in life, the green movement is reaching the apex of its bell curve. At some point near here the sacraficed dollars (whether they are expressed in jobs, freedom, living standards, etc) begin to buy les and les results. We have gotten to the point that we are now throwing massive amounts of money at situations that are not really that dire, and we are getting less and less results. (thats what a bell curve represents)
My point is that it is easy, practicle, smart and benificial to clean up the first 50% of the pollution from a given industry. The next 30% certainly has benifits but, depending on the industry, comes at a much higher cost. The clean-up of that last 5 or 10% is a real b***h and the value of persuing it is questionable.
In America, we have reached that point in many industries. Throwing hard won taxpayer money at that last 5% is, in my opinion, foolish, when so much of it is debt. After all, if we really say we want to leave our kids a better world should that not INCLUDE a world free of slavery? They will certainly be slaves if we don't get a grip on the check-book.
sledneck 2 years, 7 months ago
And Zed, Those children picking through the computers for metal: where would they be if the computers were not there? What would they pick through? Sewage! The town in America that lost Polaris did so because it was overpriced and it got replaced. Is that not a good thing for the town in Mexico who's children no longer have to pick through the computer dump?
The "slave labor", "exploitation" and "sweat shops" hogwash always ignores one very serious question: Apart from the computer metal, the polaris factory, sweat-shop, etc just where the hell do these poor people work? NONE of them are slaves! They leave a garbage dump to work at polaris for $4/ day instead of the $4/ month they scavanged out of the dump! And Americas leftists gripe about the company that gave these people the only hope they might have EVER had in their lives. All the while they ignore the lack of freedom, the political oppression and the plunder of their nations resources by stinkin dictators who are NEVER called out by the left in America for THEIR exploitation of their own nation!
Americans have become fond of "stickin it to the rich". Fools! Your leaders arn't talkin about giving the $$$ to the "poor" people in America. There ARE no poor in America! What your favorite politicians mean by "RE-distribution" is re-distribute it to the third world from ALL Americans. Sorry, but THAT is what is happening. We clamor for our government to "stick it to the rich" and they are... ALL OF US.
So, pardon the hell outa me if I don't weep for the lemmings at Polaris in America. They wanted to stick it to the rich and they are reaping that whirlwind.
Scott Wedel 2 years, 7 months ago
So Sled what situations that are not really that dire are we throwing massive amounts of money?
I see a greater problem with a political system that is so only capable of stopping things. For instance, Google made news by partnering in a undersea power cable from Virginia to NY that could make it much easier for off shore wind farms to hook into the power grid. But the main economic force behind the power cable is that electricity sells for a third less in Virginia than NY because of lack of overland transmission capacity. And while it costs much less to install wind turbines on land and North Dakota has enough wind to be a major supplier of electricity, no one wants to build transmission lines to North Dakota. So the only reason this undersea transmission line makes economic sense is because we are unable to build interstate transmission lines. It is pathetic that our country is so badly messing ourselves up over transmission lines. And the topper is that the Virginia governor was doubtful he'd support the undersea line because if Virginia were to sell electricity to NY then their electrical rates would tend to go up. So protecting local interests is more important than making money selling electricity at a better price.
The strength of the USA was that we could get things done. That we went with what worked and junked what didn't work. We wouldn't continue with what did not work. We might start a war and do poorly in the first battles, but we'd replace politically connected ineffective generals with bastards that won battles. Nowadays it no longer seems to matter what works. Got a missile intercept system that is not ready to be deployed, well politically connected suppliers want it deployed so deploy it and we'll try to fix AFTER spending billions deploying it. Got wars without a winnable strategy? Well changing strategy would be admitting mistakes so continue on and dump problems on next president.
That is where Obama and the Dems really failed. If we had a $30 billion national transmission grid project that was connecting the Dakotas, West Texas, southwest deserts and so on to areas of electrical usage then we built something that will have made our lives better and saved us all money over our lifetimes. And it'd trigger economic development building wind turbines where there is the most wind, solar where there is the most sun and so on. Instead we are crippling ourselves into doing wind and solar where it is close to current transmission lines.
The Dems failed to break through the clogs in the system and get needed stuff done. Maybe a Republican sweep will get rid of enough deadwood that a Democrat sweep in the next election will be able to get something done. (Even with the influence of the Tea Party, the Republicans have so much deadwood that I have no hopes of them getting anything done).
cody heartz 2 years, 7 months ago
Sledneck, Your last comment is steeped in a dangerous naivety. Your assertion that there are no poor in america is beyond preposterous. I'm not sure if you actually believe this; if you do it makes me wonder what kind of privileged and gated life you must have lived. My guess is this isn't the case. You probably know full well that 2009 saw the largest single year increase of people living below the poverty line since the U.S. started keeping these statistics in 1959. Also, that among developed nations the U.S. has the third worst rate of poverty and homelessness as tracked by the OECD. We have more than 3.5 million homeless people in this country, and now one of every five children is living in poverty. This year 41 million Americans are on food stamps.
These numbers will continue to grow given a lack of jobs and job creation. The problem is made worse still by the the growing housing/foreclosure crisis-- one in every seven households is either delinquent on their mortgage or in the process of foreclosure. And to really drive in the nail, people that need help can't get credit from banks despite repeated government intervention.
As for you lack of sympathy for the factory workers that demand fair pay and benefits, that is called victim blaming. It is based on the same kind of lazy and ignorant thinking as racism. It is the easiest solution to the problem and simultaneously absolves you of any guilt or sense of duty. This kind indolent ideology over simplifies the problem. We as a country need to stop washing our hands with real and present problems by saying that it is the victim that is flawed and not the system.
cody heartz 2 years, 7 months ago
continued from above.
But, what is totally disgusting and inexcusable is your implication that underdeveloped nation should be thankful for the way corporations exploit them. The fact is that many of the people that work in sweat shops and third world factories are in fact slaves. They have been forced to work there; if not at gun point then by unavoidable socioeconomic factor. Unfortunately, the way they come to work in these places is often the former of the two scenarios.
The "stinkin dictators" you talk about are made rich by American corporation. Often if American corporate interest hasn't installed this sort of leadership directly, it does it's best to encourage the kind of instability it is born out of. The dictators, or whomever is currently in charge amidst the constantly cycling power vacuum, invite big corporation to install exploitative labor operation and dump there waste (toxic, industrial, technological or otherwise) improperly for huge sums of money that ultimately goes toward reinforcing crooked, tyrannical leadership and the militia's that keep them installed--in other words, terrorists.
Installing the organs of American style capitalism by some brand of force, be it militaristic or aggressive ideology, into countries where the people are not ready or have not asked for them, has never been a benefit to the people of that nation. Saying that people are better off working in sweat shops than picking through garbage is true. But, it is also like saying that they are better off getting punched in the face than kicked in the balls. You fail to acknowledge the fact that we could just leave them alone and let people figure out how to live and govern themselves without the influence of imperialism, be it direct or indirect. Of course, this means we may pay more for a new television set, or snowmobile if that is the case.
sledneck 2 years, 7 months ago
Greenhouse gas emmisions. Storm water quality and quantity mitigation. Asbestos mitigation. Lead paint. Nuclear waste storage. Landfill restrictions. Over the road truck emmissions. Construction equipment emmissions OSHA. Food and Drug administration. Dept of Education. Dept of Energy Federal Reserve 4 overlapping land management agencies Department of Agriculture Student loan program healthcare 72 government programs dedicated to safe drinking water. 130 programs serving the disabled Americans with disabilities act. 23 agencies providing federal aid to former soviet states 17 trade agencies monotoring over 400 international trade agreements 50 homeless assistance programs 45 ageicies doing federal crime investigation social security medicare medicaid
I could go on for pages but it's lunch time.
sledneck 2 years, 7 months ago
O.K, Fine, I can go without lunch.
Buff, We agree that people are better off in sweat shops than getting kicked in the balls... which is their ONLY OTHER OPTION. Thats a start. I also agree that the world has had far too much American imperialism. Really, I agree with that.
However, the poverty line is where your vision fails you. Poverty is not what some beureacrat says. Relative to the rest of the world nobody in America is poor. 4 Billion people would kill to live an inch below Americas "poverty line". I know, I've looked. Spend some time in Honduras, the slums of Sao-Paulo, Sub-saharan Affrica or Bangladesh and then come tell me all about poverty and slavery.
The "stinkin dictators" are made rich plundering the natural resources of the country they control. A brief study of Sub-saharan Affrica tells that tale OVER and OVER and OVER again! And leftists in America defend them at every turn. Hugo Chaves just CONFISCATED a huge American Corporations facilities in Venezuela THIS VERY DAY! Why would he do that if the company was "making him rich"?
I'm not saying underdeveloped nations should be thankful. I'm saying that underdeveloped nations ARE thankful. The "unavoidable socioeconomic factors" are that there is NO DAMN CHOICE.
Outside of this and a small few other nations this world lives by the creed "root little pig or die". I understand and accept this while many like yourself do not. Leftists, by and large, can not stomach the grim reality of difficult life and their reaction is to search eagerly for some one or some entity to blame. Sometimes they may find one. Most times it is simply a fact of life in an imprefect world.
Zed 2 years, 7 months ago
Agree with above points from Cody, and I would add that this outsourcing is also supporting governments that we totally oppose from an ideological standpoint. Sure, Chinese workers are making money from building ipods, but ultimately it is the Chinese government that is gaining power. Same deal with foreign oil, emissions and energy efficiency might strike you as a "green" agenda, but I see it as front and center a security issue. All that Mideast oil is supporting the same countries that continue to trouble us, why would you want your dollars going to Saudi kings or Venezuelan dictators?
Using the poor to get us cheap products does not count as helping the poor. I guess one of my fundamental points with the immigration debate is that exploiting people is not right and it should be part of the debate about how to deal with immigration.
Sticking it to the rich, that's a joke. There is fact behind "the rich getting richer", look at the top and bottom. How sad that so many who make very little want policies that will grow a system geared towards the concentration of wealth. I don't care about redistributing it, but I certainly don't want a system where the rich can have so many advantages over those who come into the world with nothing.
http://tax.com/taxcom/taxblog.nsf/Permalink/UBEN-8AGMUZ?OpenDocument
Zed 2 years, 7 months ago
"4 Billion people would kill to live an inch below Americas "poverty line" ^^^
And we wonder why terrorists want to destroy us, I don't think it has to do with them being Muslim. If I was born in squalor in the Nigerian delta below an oil pipeline, I would probably be asking myself some hard questions about the US as well. There are plenty of choices to be made as to how the US conducts itself in the world, that will directly impact the success or failure of another country. Do we build a wall or do we consider ways to support the Mexican state.
I am curious, do your religious views factor in at all when you consider the US being better off than the rest of the world?
And what's with the list, are those all of the government programs you have benefited from?
Jeff Kibler 2 years, 7 months ago
Scott W:
"If we had a $30 billion national transmission grid project that was connecting the Dakotas, West Texas, southwest deserts and so on to areas of electrical usage then we built something that will have made our lives better and saved us all money over our lifetimes."
It's not that simple. The longer the transmission lines, the more line loss and the greater instability to the grid. The closer the generation is to the distribution, the better.
Peruse the following: http://www.aip.org/tip/INPHFA/vol-9/iss-5/p8.html http://www.naspi.org/resources/archive/rttt/entergy_osi_phasor_application.pdf
Pertinent quote: "For one thing, FERC or Congress could rescind Order 888 and reduce the long-distance energy flows that stress the system."
sledneck 2 years, 7 months ago
Zed, The list was for scott from above. I think what pisses some people off the most is that the rich won't sit still while society tries to insert the needle. The rich keep moving, squirming around. Cayman accounts, factories in Mexico, companies based in Bahamas, etc. I don't blame the rich; even an animal knows to avoid pain. And even an animal knows what private property is... try to take a dogs bone and...
I agree that exploiting people is wrong. I just don't define letting people make choices of free-will as exploitation. And I don't blame myself for being born in America while they were born in Bangladesh. I thank God for my circumstances and pitty the other.
Yes, my religious views factor in. I direct my charitable donations to endeavors outside the US. I also learned a well known, popular prayer: "God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I can not change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference."
He does not always grant that to me so I repeat that prayer often.
trump_suit 2 years, 7 months ago
Do you have a point in there somewhere yvb?
Zed 2 years, 6 months ago
Sled, I can appreciate some of your points but maybe because I am not in the top 1% of wealthiest Americans I would not see a 5% change in my taxes the same way that they would. What I get hung up on is that the economic system of the US is heavily favored towards those who have money and consequently power. Everyone should not have to claw their way to the top, we should have a system that gives equal say and opportunity to those who are perfectly comfortable making $35,000 a year or those that are born to single parents in slums. We can do better as a country that holds an American dream so high.
YVB, just buy some gold, that is what Glenn Beck told me to do.
I think YVB's point is everyone should be afraid to the point of insanity and follow Glenn Beck and Sarah Palin like lemmings. But where was YVB when Bush was doing illegal wiretaps, illegal wars, and illegal prisons like Guantanamo? Everything is cool until you raise his taxes, then the sky is falling....
sledneck 2 years, 6 months ago
I don't like the fact that money buys power either. It's wrong. We are supposed to be a "nation of laws rather than a nation of men". ie it's not who you are but what the law says. Too bad but it's not that way. The reality is, however, it is still easier to get ahead here in America than most other countries.
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