Steamboat Ski and Resort Corp. lift operator and seasonal employee Saunders Southecorvo helps skiers onto the Preview lift Tuesday. Ski Corp. officials said a policy in the health care overhaul would assess a fine per employee for large businesses that don’t provide health care to full-time workers.

Photo by Matt Stensland

Steamboat Ski and Resort Corp. lift operator and seasonal employee Saunders Southecorvo helps skiers onto the Preview lift Tuesday. Ski Corp. officials said a policy in the health care overhaul would assess a fine per employee for large businesses that don’t provide health care to full-time workers.

Health policy raises red flags at Steamboat Ski Area

Health care employer penalty for large businesses could cost $2M

Advertisement

— Steamboat Ski Area officials said Tuesday that the federal health care overhaul could cost their business as much as $2 million a year beginning in 2014.

The health care overhaul includes a policy that would assess a fine, per employee, to large businesses that do not provide health care to full-time workers. The policy’s potential impact is ringing alarm bells with the Colorado ski industry, which has a large number of uninsured seasonal employees who work enough days to qualify as full-time workers.

“The potential impact to Colorado Ski Country member areas is somewhere between $9 million and $14 million in penalties (per year),” Steamboat Ski and Resort Corp. President Chris Diamond said Tuesday, citing a Colorado Ski Country USA estimate. “It’s a stunning blow to any large employer like ours that employs seasonal staff.”

Colorado Ski Country is the trade association for 22 Colorado ski and snowboard resorts. Spokeswoman Jennifer Rudolph cautioned Tuesday that association staff still is digesting the impacts of the multi-faceted health care legislation, which includes numerous tax credits and penalties for businesses of varying sizes. But Rudolph said the association is very much aware of the employer penalty policy.

“That is something that has raised a red flag with us, and we do have some concerns as representatives of employers,” Rudolph said. “We do have folks on our staff who work closely with legislators and policy makers and have been paying very close attention to the health care bill.”

Two members of Colorado’s Congressional delegation, U.S. Rep. John Salazar and U.S. Sen. Mark Udall, said Tuesday that they plan to work with the state’s ski industry to address its concerns. No specifics were given.

President Barack Obama signed the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act into law Tuesday. A smaller companion bill, the Health Care & Education Affordability Recon­ciliation Act, is pending passage by the U.S. Senate and would modify the larger bill. Together, the two bills include a policy that requires businesses with more than 50 full-time employees to provide health insurance, or a percentage of its costs, to each full-time employee. Failure to do so when the policy takes effect in 2014 would result in the per-employee fine.

The policy would charge Steamboat Ski and Resort Corp. $2,000 for each seasonal employee who works more than 120 days — thus considered full-time — and who is not provided health insurance.

Ski Corp. has about 1,000 seasonal employees.

“That’s a $2 million cost to us on an annual basis, where all of a sudden our expenses just increase,” said Laurie Good, Ski Corp.’s vice president of financial services. “If we have to foot the bill for $2 million … that’s really going to hurt our business model.”

The actual fine could total less than $2 million annually. The policy exempts the first 30 employees from the fine assessment, and Ski Corp. spokesman Mike Lane said Ski Corp. provides health insurance to seasonal employees in their third year and beyond.

A breakdown of seasonal employees’ longevity was not available Tuesday.

Diamond said he learned about the employer penalty policy about a week ago, from Colorado Ski Country. He strongly criticized western Colorado’s representation in Congress for not blocking the policy.

“It was so tough to get any handle on what was actually going to be in the bill,” Diamond said about the weeks leading up to its passage. “I’m terribly disappointed that anybody representing constituents like us would have let this pass through — it’s beyond understanding.”

Salazar’s staff said Tuesday that they are working with ski areas and other members of Colorado’s Congressional delegation to address the policy and its impacts. Udall said the same.

“I appreciate the challenges that any business faces in providing health coverage to their employees. I think it is vital that we make providing health coverage as feasible and affordable as possible,” Udall said Tuesday. “While nearing the end of this current debate, I recognize the unique seasonal work force needs of ski areas and am committed to working with them and the (presidential) administration to make sure ski areas are not put at a disadvantage compared to other employers.”

The policy’s final language is pending passage of the reconciliation bill.

Lane said Ski Corp. used to offer health care to seasonal employees in their first year, but has not done so for several years.

Good noted that Ski Corp. “employees have been at a wage freeze for two years.”

The employer penalty policy could add to the burden of ski resorts struggling in the economic recession.

“It’s certainly a very big cause for concern for the Colorado ski industry,” Good said.

Comments

beentheredonethat 4 years, 9 months ago

health care for all americans is now a right, and no longer just a privilege.

0

trump_suit 4 years, 9 months ago

Right now, they routinely work their empoyees 35 hours per week to avoid the full-time designation. How does this change anything for the workers?

0

seeuski 4 years, 9 months ago

Go exercise your rights then. Ski Corp has excellent health care for it's employees and as usual trump-suit is making it all up. Hey trump, one thing for sure is this health care law will create new jobs, 16,000 IRS employees to chase us all down. Marxism at it's finest.

Charles Dingell tells us the real goal of the Liberals.

0

insbsdeep 4 years, 9 months ago

Leave to ski corp to look at the fine, and not the cost of insuring it's employees.

0

seeuski 4 years, 9 months ago

Your lift ticket prices will balance out the costs in the coming years and I can hear the whining already. Nothing is free, and why is it that the Representatives that brought us this terrible health care law have written law in that excludes them from having to participate like the rest of us Americans? And the illegals, native Americans and so called conscientious objectors are also excluded. Social justice/Marxism

0

Fred Duckels 4 years, 9 months ago

Obama can put ski corp under and then let his good buddy trump run it, social justice!

0

OnTheBusGus 4 years, 9 months ago

Native Americans already have health care through Indian Health Services (IHS).

0

Cooke 4 years, 9 months ago

Ski patrol and ski school - both professions which can pretty easily lead to injuries - both seasonal. Doesn't ski Corps only offer insurance to seaonal full-timers who have been there for three years?

0

JustSomeJoe 4 years, 9 months ago

Oh my, the health care reform bill is going to cost Ski Corp 2MM dollars!!!! Oh, except it's not. The bill requires companies to provide its employees ACCESS to health care, and Ski Corp will pay a percentage of it with resulting tax credits to the company making it easier to provide the health care. But all we care about is sound bites, absolutes and rhetoric, not any work going into the actual story or understanding the issue. If it sounds good on a 24 hour cable news network headline then lets run it!!!! Doesn't matter if it is true or there are parts of the story are missing. The story is really the formerly uninsured will now have access to affordable health care through their employer. There's no $2MM hit to Ski Corp, that's outright bull hockey and a silly headline.

0

OnTheBusGus 4 years, 9 months ago

Cooke, if a patroller or instructor or any employee were injured on the job they would be covered under worker's compensation for that injury.

0

Cooke 4 years, 9 months ago

gus -- excellent point. more coffee before I post in the future...

0

kathy foos 4 years, 9 months ago

What about the visa workers?Since they are not american, maybe the ski industry and anyone else can still hire them and save money,Will insurance companys have to insure the illegals by law like they do us?Would you have them recieve all of our american benefits because they crashed our borders?My family for 100 years or more have paid taxes and voted in this country,they helped develop it,and now everyone thinks its okay to crash our border,I may be naive,but I was taught that that would be against the law!Dont teach an american one thing and then when they grow up tell them that they need to "look the other way".Its kinda hard to look the other way when that is the food stamp office ,because an alien has the job you have always had.Sounds like the ski business hasnt suffered much yet like the rest of us out here.Their employees have paid up by loosing their benefits long ago and frozen pathetic wages people are expected to live on.Ski area managers ,isnt it good to think of the community that exists here,rather than the imports of your choosing taking over everything?Be responsible and not greedy.

0

housepoor 4 years, 9 months ago

Everyone in the U.S., citizen or illegal has health insurance, it's called the Emergency Room

0

Cooke 4 years, 9 months ago

Sun -- Visa'd workers are NOT illegal. wow... House - Isn't one of the reasons that healthcare costs are so expensive because people without insurance use emergency services and that cost gets passed to those of us with insurance?

0

beverly lemons 4 years, 9 months ago

You republicans get your panties in a knot when our government does something which benefits all citizens, as opposed to letting people drown and creating such an inept infrastructure that goat herders are enabled to come here and kill thousands with airplanes. If your Cheney's and Palin's ran things as you seem to so badly want, this would be the republic of Haliburton run from the kingdom of Texas. For once, you did not get your way, a watered down health care bill passed, and now you want to lie, scream and start a revolution over it. Grow up and get over it. The majority does not buy into your world view of oppression for all.

0

jimmmmmm 4 years, 9 months ago

Thanks Baddove and JustSomeJoe. That's the truth.

0

Cat 4 years, 9 months ago

Here here baddove! Get over it people, it's a done deal...I guess you could all go with Rush as he leaves America. Like that fat, smarmy, worm would give up all that money...won't happen.

0

boater1 4 years, 9 months ago

Lane said Ski Corp. used to offer health care to seasonal employees in their first year, but has not done so for several years.

Good noted that Ski Corp. “employees have been at a wage freeze for two years.”


this says it all about ski corp...they have ZERO interest in helping their employees. they just want them for the cheapest possible rate. an employee is just a workertron. people put up with it because they want to ski, can't afford the over priced passes & have little other options for employement...and ski corp know this.

then again what do we expect, ski corp is just a few rungs down from Fortress, the most $ grubbing republican vultures on the planet.

0

boater1 4 years, 9 months ago

... everyone talks about how Vail might be a much better owner, but those guys are just as nasty of a human.

personally i'd like to see Aspen corp go at it. sure passes wouldn't be any cheaper, but i'm not expecting that. what we would see is a much better corporate invironment.

0

seeuski 4 years, 9 months ago

The entitlement crowd are all here with their hands out and ready to receive the anointed ones gifts. Somehow everybody gets American medical care and no one pays for it, not Ski Corp not the entitlement crowd, it just arrives VIA the fairy godmother stork. And OnthebusGus, I have health insurance too, can I opt out without the IRS penalizing me? Or am I creating a new soundbite? Footnote for you giddy lefties, you will not have any coverage until 2014. WHAT??? That is right. But you will be paying for it first. Enjoy.

0

boatwatch 4 years, 9 months ago

Boater1,

You are right on. Our Ski Corp's ownership by hedge fund Fortress is the problem. SkiCorp employee's are forced to take subpar pay and benefits so that there is enough money to send out of town to keep Fortress from going bust. This is a familar story for Steamboat that started with financially distressed Komuri and then American Ski Corp. Chris Diamond whines about paying health care benefits to employees when he should tell the truth about his hedge fund partner, Fortress.

0

beverly lemons 4 years, 9 months ago

Mr. Diamond has health insurance, but thinks his employees are whining if they want it to.

0

NamVet 4 years, 9 months ago

As usual See rambles on like the idiot Rush Limbaugh on steroids. Maybe if he had cancer and no insurance he would understand that this country's health care system stinks. If Richard Nixon's proposal for Universal Health Care had been enacted in 1970 we would be spending 10% of GDP on Health Care not 17% and everyone would be covered. We are the only country in the world that your health care depends on your employment and the mercy of insurance companies to insure you. I personally don't like many of the provisions in this Bill however if it is a start to get all Americans covered it is worth it. The money wasted in Iraq alone would have paid for this entire Health Care Bill for a decade. Remember Republicans were against Social Security, Medicare and Civil Rights so it is easy to understand why they are against Health Care. They are only for wars, big business(especially Defense Contractors), Wall St. and the super rich. They could care less about the average American. Isn't it interesting that not one Senator or Representative especially the Republicans ops out of their Government provided Health Care paid by the taxpayers.
As for the Ski Corp. they do their best to exclude employees from their plan. If you are lucky enough to get on it you'll find it is nothing to brag about but still better than no insurance at all. It would be great if all their employees could at least get basic coverage. I'm pretty sure all the executives have great insurance but that is the norm in corporate America today.

0

JLM 4 years, 9 months ago

Sometimes you just can't overcome stupid. Who did you think was going to get the bill for universal healthcare?

YOU ARE GETTING IT! Didn't you understand that every employer who produces a product or provides a service was simply going to add the cost of healthcare to their expenses and mark their costs up to determine their selling price?

This will create meaningful inflation and will literally rend the economy from end to end.

Not to let a good rant go unanswered, you might want to know the following:

Social Security was voted on in the House of Representatives on 4-19-35 with 81 of 102 Republicans voting YES. That was followed in the Senate on 6-19-35 with 16 of 25 Republican Senators voting YES.

The rant that Social Security was a Democratic initiative and that the Republicans opposed it is a bit of a lie and folks who repeat that are simply stupid.

0

JLM 4 years, 9 months ago

It is an absolute canard and the embodiment of stupidity to claim that the Republicans opposed the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

Let's review the actual vote totals:

House Republicans FOR the Act --- 138 or 80% of House Republicans. Senate Republicans FOR the Act --- 27 or 82% of Senate Republicans.

It might be useful to note that:

93% or 87 of House Southern Democrats from the 11 States which made up the old Confederacy voted AGAINST the Bill. As did 95% or 20 Senate Southern Democrats.

It is also interesting to note that Sen Byrd of WVA --- yes the same old fossil which continues his hospice treatment as a Senator today --- filibustered for 14 hours and 13 minutes.

The canard that Republicans did not support the 1964 Civil Rights Act is one of the stupidest statements ever made.

If you actually knew your history, you would know that the Republicans were the party of Lincoln and the Democrats were the party of the Southern slave masters. The Southern Democrats plus Bobby Byrd, the Exalted Cyclops of the WVA KKK, were the greatest opponents to the advance of civil rights in America.

Of course, it is likely more fun to just be stupid.

0

JLM 4 years, 9 months ago

Just to complete the tri-fecta of stupid lies ---

The Social Security Act of 1965 (Medicare/Medicaid) was passed with 50% of Republican House members voting FOR and 13 of 32 Republican Senators voting FOR the Act.

It is interesting to note that 52 Democratic House members voted PRESENT or AGAINST the Act while 11 Democratic Senators followed likewise.

So, the idea that Medicare/medicaid did not have substantial Republican support is simply a lie.

0

JLM 4 years, 9 months ago

While refuting the false statements pertaining to SS, Medicare and Civil Rights, it is important to note that during all of these time periods, the Democrats enjoyed substantial majorities in both the House and Senate.

Substantial!

And yet, they were able to form and develop substantial bi-partisan support for their programs.

Where Barack Obama has failed most substantially is in his inability to create even the smallest element of bi-partisanship.

Do you think the country is sell served by promising bi-partisanship, conducting silly public displays of bi-partisanship like the Healthcare Forum, championing bills that nobody can possibly read, feigning transparency and then using reconciliation as a legislative weapon?

What does it say when you cannot obtain a single vote from the opposition?

Particularly in the light of the truth of the SS, Medicare and Civil Rights legislative history?

Barack Obama could not hold FDR or LBJ's jock. They were men.

0

oldskoolstmbt 4 years, 9 months ago

it's funny....republican's rant and rave about illegal's or sporting the bill for someone else, yet every person i've known for the past 20 years to hire these 'illegals' are....drum roll....REPUBLICANS.....the door was opened a long time ago...but, unless it is (bush)oiling their pocketbooks, well..don't cha' know joe...it's our new president's fault! ...did anyone stop and think about how many companies already provide health insurance.....mountains out of mole hills!!!

0

housepoor 4 years, 9 months ago

Cooke, that was my point. They come in ER for the flu.=.bill 2300...they have no way to pay.........the hospital then spreads that cost across everyting from masks to tylenol on those who have health care ins.... i would challenge fred a business owner to disclose his cost from 1990 to now per employee??? or does he send them to the ER?

0

bandmama 4 years, 9 months ago

I think I need some "Splain-in"... I gather that this will hurt S.C. by the number of "seasonal" employees who work full times hours. It seems that a company as big as S.C., will compensate by hiring more people, to work the same hours with less people, thus not having to pay full time.....penalties. This, may effect the number of seasonal, part timers who depend on these wages..Ahhh to me, this will effect many in the respect that SB will falter more $wise, but we will also see an influx of passers thru. I honestly have issues with current programs, the waste and abuse. As someone who has been fortunate enough to have health coverage for 20+ years and worked in the health care ind. for many years (not in the last 10) but still hearing of the same abuses taking place, I am not sure where the benefit of this bill is. A major revamp as well as accountability for current State run programs would be more afforadable and reasonable to most.

0

JLM 4 years, 9 months ago

The bill does NOTHING to reduce health care costs. Nothing.

At the end of the day, this bill was drafted by a namesless, faceless think tank and is about FREE healthcare.

Or, perhaps, I am wrong and YOU know who drafted the 2700 page bill? LOL

Your employer is using your fully deductible before tax dollars when he pays for your healthcare insurance. This bill will be using your undeductible before tax dollars when it pays for everybody else's healthcare insurance. Of course, they will be paying next to nothing for their care and they will not be paying income or payroll taxes to boot.

You on the other hand will be seeing a substantial reduction in your after tax dollars and will be paying for every corporation's incremental expenses through the prices you pay in the marketplace.

The health care bill is, in effect, a national sales tax and you will be paying it. Enjoy.

0

housepoor 4 years, 9 months ago

bandmama, don't u see some benifit of those coming unisured and yvmc has to write it off to now them have some form of health care?

0

seeuski 4 years, 9 months ago

Namvet, You really should avoid parroting the daily kos and the rest of the lefty talking point sites. You are spewing lies. JLM has sent you packing with reality and I have a Ski Corp policy and it is the complete opposite of your lying rant. You and the rest of your cohorts don't want health care for all, you want what Obama wants, power over the populace and Progressives at the helm into eternity. How ironic that after Pelosi warned us with her crocodile tears last Summer about her not wanting violence as she has seen it before, we now have these trumped up whiny charges of threats against the poor Democrats who voted for the continuance of Obama's Marxist takeover. These attempts of diluting the Tea Party movement will not work, we are hip to the Saul Alinsky playbook that the Progressives are using.

0

seeuski 4 years, 9 months ago

YVMC doesn't have to write off anything, it gets paid for through private insurance which is a lot better than having the IRS at your throat.

0

trump_suit 4 years, 9 months ago

Rfepublicans that participated in drafting the legislation. Senate 1 / 41 for 2% - Olympia Snowe House 0 / 178 or 0%

If the conservative wanted to influence this legislation then they should have participated fully in the process Becoming the party of "No Reform" killed you ability to influence the content and outcome. Just like those citzens that decline to vote, the Republicans have no one to blame but themselves. I am sure you will all blast me for this opinion and claim that you were locked out by the Dems' Hooey on all of you. Your representatives made a conscious decison to try and stop this process instead of using the good ideas that you had to influence it's outcome.

0

Cooke 4 years, 9 months ago

These all seem like valid and useful points with the noteable exception of Namvet and JLM's pointless bickering about who supported and voted for bills decades ago. There is something deeply hypocritical with JLM criticizing the obvious lack of bipartisanship (of which there was obviously none) in this bill while railing on a partisan rant. I am willing to bet that most Americans could care less about what republicans, democrats, or whigs for that matter voted on 80 years ago - and there is no reason that they should - the political parties of today are not the same ones from decades ago. With very few exceptions, none of those people are still making laws and none of the parties have the same platforms and ideals that they had in the 1930's. If you are going to decry the lack of bipartisanism, you can't fan the flames of it with nonrelevant nonsense. Stick to the present.

0

housepoor 4 years, 9 months ago

Seeuski, You're dreaming. Call YVMC and ask them the % of patients that don't have private insurance.

0

seeuski 4 years, 9 months ago

housepoor, Do you not understand my post? I am aware of the uninsured, especially since the promise of free health services is prominantly posted in spanish in the admittance area for all the soon to be new Democrat voters, but the controversy surrounds whether YVMC has to write it off as a loss or are they compensated by the private insurers. Private insurance has aided in the under payment of the uninsured and the Medicare system for years and now it will be all on the American taxpayers. Rationing is coming after 2014 like it or not.

0

Doug Marsh 4 years, 9 months ago

I don't mind paying extra so that everyone has medical insurance. Why are some so greedy to not care about your neighbor. Are we that prejudiced that we stereotype everyone without insurance as lazy, black or hispanic.
Where's your compassion for other people, or is the bottom line the most important thing in America today?

0

mmjPatient22 4 years, 9 months ago

The money is the only thing(or at least the predominant underlying reason) that has ever mattered in most every important issue in American history.

0

TWill 4 years, 9 months ago

The Bottom Line IS important in America! (even in chicago). It doesn't matter if your an individual, a small business, major corporation, or the US Government. The Bottom Line matters. Try paying your bills while disregarding it and see how it works out...

I don't think this issue is a matter of prejudice or stereotype, but rather one of abusing the system and unnecessary subsidy. There are a lot of responsible and capable people (the upper and middle class) that do all the heavy lifting (working and paying taxes) for those that can not (or simply do not want to) do any lifting at all.

"I want affordable housing and a mortgage (that I can choose not to pay if it gets too difficult). I want unlimited unemployment benefits and free health insurance too. But working and saving for all of this is too hard. The government can pay for all of it, they've got lots of money."

Guess who pays the government?

The middle class is sick and tired of doing all the heavy lifting for others. This bill now means that a lot more weight is going to have to be lifted by a shrinking middle class that grows more frustated, by those above them and below them, every day.

0

seeuski 4 years, 9 months ago

Excellent TWILL, To those who say it is all about the money or bottom line, give it a break. It's always been about Government running/ruining our lives and the power grab that this huge entitlement brings with it. This Country was great once because it had limited Government and free enterprise but the growth of Government and all of it's tax and spending has brought us to our knees and will leave a debt on the future generations that can't be paid off. The Federal Government is supposed to provide National Security primarily and govern Interstate Commerce, not take over business's and industries. That is leading us to a Fascist state. But we are all on the same raft and we have left the docks so buckle your seat belts the ride is starting.

0

JLM 4 years, 8 months ago

@ cooke ---

It is hardly partisan to point out that someone's statements are completely wrong. It is important to know the real history of social change in America to understand how odd, weird and extreme the current administration truly is despite their empty protestations of bi-partisanship.

One cannot create intellectual cooperation by cancelling committee testimony, subcommittee consideration and extensive floor debate.

When debate is stifled, the outcome fails to benefit from the evolution of ideas.

While Obama won a great legislative victory, the process of making policy has suffered from the extreme approach undertaken. There will be no follow on victories. Everybody's energy has been exhausted.

BTW, who did write the healthcare bill?

0

seeuski 4 years, 8 months ago

By definition I believe we are confronting a monster in DC.

http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_561512104/fascism.html

The Government now holds sway of more than 51% of the US economy. It's the 1930's all over again, do humans ever learn their lessons? Can history repeat itself? Apparently no and I hope not, that is why the Tea Party movement is so important and the White House has sent out the troops to defame and discourage people from joining the masses. That is the strategy for the November elections.

0

MrTaiChi 4 years, 8 months ago

Interesting opinions.

It's stupid to try to contradict an expert in his own field. Clearshy and Scott Wiedl by thier own assertions have lots of initials behind their names from degrees in the natural sciences. I won't try to contradict their statements of scientific fact regarding global warming and don't have time to search the internet to find clips of cross opinions. As Eisenhower said, "better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and eliminate all doubt."

Good luck to you of the left wing who want to take on JLM on facts and research. Here is a man with actual experience running a company, meeting payrolls and creating jobs. It is the sorry task of conservatives like him to bring dreamers and advocates without any real concept of the complete consequences of their feel good programs, back to reality. Conservatives are never cuddly and are dismissed by the loopy left as mean and nasty, lacking the preferred personality characteristics associated with utopian strivers.

My cousin was involved in geothermal energy development in California. As a result of risk taking and investment of riches, he and his co-owners received a rich reward when the company was purchased by a mega-conglomerate. Before he died, he transferred a large number of shares to his children, adults who were still children, dopers and deadbeats. They were outraged to learn that they had to pay taxes on the dividends from their stocks. Up until that epiphany, one or more of them made a personna out of slobbering all over themselves for the less advantaged.

JLM, keep fighting the good fight. This country still needs responsible adults as the fun police.

0

trump_suit 4 years, 8 months ago

Lets see here. The conservatives have fought this bill with: Death Panels Healthcare Rationing All the Doctors will quit It will make small business bankrupt No one will hire new employees

Come on Guys, these doom and gloom scary stories are just that. "Scary Stories" not based in fact. How about we let this bill take affect before we begin adding up the consequences.

PS. Lets not forget the birther conspiracy and their rant the our President is an illegal alien.................

0

Cooke 4 years, 8 months ago

@ Taichi "Conservatives are never cuddly and are dismissed by the loopy left as mean and nasty, lacking the preferred personality characteristics associated with utopian strivers."

Again, just pointing out the hypocracy here. Taichi calls the left names (loopy) while in the same sentence decrying that the left calls the right names (mean and nasty). All I'm saying is that if you can't be civil to the other side, you are no better than the short-sighted and single-minded Congress we are currently enjoying.

0

Scott Berry 4 years, 8 months ago

Well, well --- the left – baddove, oldschoolstmbt, NamVet, & JustSomeJoe – are again using emotion to justify their viewpoint, while the right --- JLM, seeyouski, & MrThaiChi are using facts. When one utilizes facts to contravene an emotionally based viewpoint of the left, it is amazing how incoherent those emotional arguments become.

Putting that aside, perhaps we need to agree on two facts. First, Obama, the Senators, and the Representatives, don’t understand what was just passed. Second, Washington has never correctly estimated the cost of any legislation; especially social entitlement programs. So, perhaps we should learn something from history for a change.

Medicare was enacted in 1966 with an initial cost of 3 Billion for year one and an estimated cost, inflation adjusted, to be 12 Billion in 1990. The real number for 1990 was 107 Billion! They only missed by 892%! And since 1990, it has grown to 477 Billion in 2009. Adjusted for inflation, that is an astounding 2,431% ERROR ! Medicare now consumes 13% of the total budget! If one assumes the 2600 page bill which nobody has read, is as good as the Medicare Bill was in 1966, the extrapolated real cost by 2020 will easily be over 10 Trillion Dollars. And to make matters even scarier, that includes their counting Social Security Expense as income for the Health Care Bill!

Doesn’t everyone know that Social Security will dip into the red for the first time, this year! That simply means, there is more going out than coming in. And, just in case you didn’t know, there is no such thing as a Social Security Trust Fund! That’s right, Bernie Madoff didn’t invent anything, he just copied the government.

So, lets all get our heads out of the sand and quit blaming others. It is our own government that is selling us a bill of goods. Facts are facts, and emotions are simply an excuse not to face them.

0

Scott Hoffner 4 years, 8 months ago

This administration has it in for the private sector as demonstrated this week in the Wall Street Journal:

http://www.emailthis.clickability.com/et/emailThis?clickMap=viewThis&etMailToID=1071404160

Health care for all sure sounds good, but who is going to pay for it? In the end the middle class will through higher taxes. You can take all the "rich" people's income and not come close to covering this monstrosity.

When our debt skyrockets after this is implemented, they will come back and talk about a VAT tax to get the deficit under control. Of course, never mentioning that health reform was the cause.

0

seeuski 4 years, 8 months ago

I'm sure George can come up with another story to change your mind newell. Obama had some stories also, they were all found to be made up or embellished.

0

canyonwind 4 years, 8 months ago

One thing Im so tired of is people blaming Obama or blaming the Republicans for things they did not do. Right know the DEMS control all 3 branches of GOV in WASH DC and here in Colorado one of the REDEST states before the 2008 election. Yes Obama did pass health care but even Republicans said the system needed fixen. However forcing people to buy health insurance and hiring 15,000 IRS agents is a bad idea. The repubs should pick up 1 Senate and 2 House seats here in Colorado and take control of the House and Senate. Thats change you can count on. On the state side of things its so bad for DEMS that Bill Ritter will not even bother to run for a second term. Denver mayor Hickenlooper is a DEM and will run against Scott Mcinnis a REPUB from Glenwood Springs, this race is very important if you love the Yampa River. To all you transplants from the Northeastern US, I know most of you are Democrats as your parents were and so on. So nows a good time to change by voting for Scott Mcinnis(R) for GOV. The last thing we need is another Denver or Front Range person in office, they will not think twice about draining the Yampa or the Green River in Wyoming for some Stupid Housing Development in Boulder. Scott Mcinnis knows how much we value our rivers in this part of the state. and that change you can believe in.

0

JLM 4 years, 8 months ago

@ George ---

My Dad fought against Hitler for 3 years in N Africe, Italy and Europe. He fought against the same Kraut paratrooper division allthe way up Italy. He said they were big, mean and tough but they still died if you shot them in the right places. He got a battlefield commission because all the officers in his unit kept getting killed.

He missed his chance to go to college and ended up being in the Army for 35 years during which he fought in Korea, Lebanon, Dominican Republic, Bay of Pigs and Viet Nam.

When he got out he became a postal letter carrier and worked his way up to Postmaster.

His kids got to live the life he never got a chance at living. He made sure of that.

He's 92 years old, lives in a nursing home and I never fail to appreciate the greatness of this man. He refuses to complain about anything even the food. Guys like that bought your right to complain. Mine too.

He always says, just shut up and do your damn job. Stop bellyaching. Everybody has it tough.

I'll thank him for you when I visit w/ him tom'w.

0

JLM 4 years, 8 months ago

@ mister tai chi ---

Thanks for the kind words. However, I would like to state for the record that I am extremely CUDDLY. Damn it!

In fact, I suspect that I am amongst the most cuddly persons in the entire world. I like nothing more in the world than a damn good cuddle.

In addition, I give an excellent foot massage and I can even administer a craftsmanlike pedicure.

I read damn good children's stories and fables. I read the Night Before Christmas complete with the whooshing sound of the reindeer flying out of sight. My grown children will vouch for my theatricality (or they will be disowned).

OK, I'm exaggerating just a smidgen. LOL

America is getting ready for the fight of its life as we are running out of money while lost and headed in the wrong direction but here's "hoping" we get a bit of "change" come November.

0

MrTaiChi 4 years, 8 months ago

@ Cooke

I enjoy a good rejoinder, and you made one. I hadn't intended my remarks as name calling, rather to criticize a habitual response pattern, but I guess it comes out the same either way. I had in mind the phrases: "right wing nut" and "wingnut" often seen on these pages in referring to conservative commentary, also those who assert that opposition to Obama's programs is bred from racism. There are shallow and il- thought out responses from people seemingly from right and left here, but my observation, subject to the breakdown of all generalizations, is that the majority are from the left, particularly the, (here I indulge juicy satisfaction in name calling) Mogul Maoists who skipped the courses in economics and history to rap thier heads one too many times on aspens, those who being the beneficiaries of private enterprise loathe it because of the difference of life results that it produces. That hard work stuff and thrift are so less interesting and satisfying than sitting at the picnic table at the mid station and sharing weed. Whew! That was purgative. Now I'll go back to being civil.

When it comes to name calling, conservatives and tea partiers have a few years to catch up on. Honestly, except for the past five years or so, can you remember the media actually using the words, 'left wing' to describe Liberalism? Sure, in the 1950s Senator McCarthy lobbed around the term 'communist' with little economy, but hasn't the left made a living criticizing conservative judgmentalism since then as McCarthyism, right wing extremism and the like? Did they ever describe Angela Davis as a left wing extremist? It seems to me that when one of the left's pet phrases for their initiatives gets shopworn, they just invent new words to describe the same philosophy. The latest manifestation is 'Progressive' to replace, 'Liberal'. What happens, however, is that leftist new-speak is like a mens room urinal cake. Every so often the manufacturers come up with a new aroma. You go in and piney fresh has been replaced with lavender, but after awhile your brain makes the association that lavender in the mens room smells like piss.

I wanted reform of health care. I like something for nothing as much as the next guy. My momma didn't raise no fools. This monstrosity is not economically viable according to experts who are now just grasping all of the creative accounting that the Democrats resorted to to make it appear that it was. The former comptroller of the United States, said on the news the other night that they counted a few hundred billion dollars in revenue twice in an accounting gimmic to maker their numbers work. It doesn't sound like Generally Accepted Accounting Practices. That's standard in private industry. The affordability of this legislation, if a publicly traded company strategy, would set off alams all over the FTC. It may be progressive, but it doesn't pass the stink test.

0

JustSomeJoe 4 years, 8 months ago

Hey Commoncents, your first two paragraphs of your last post don't make sense! First off, it's just silly to say the posters on the left (your opponents?) are all making things up, but the posters on the right (the ones you agree with?) are all stating facts. That's an absolute and absolutely not true nor possible. Further, my post wasn't based on "emotion" as you stated. The article that I commented on (not this run-on thread that has little to do with the original article any more), stated that the ski corp could take a 2MM hit due to the bill. I stated that headline was way overstated, hyperbole, an exaggeration, and it is. Do you think Ski Corp will stop offering all of their employees the opportunity to buy insurance through their group? No. But, if they did, it could cost them $2MM. Well, if I decide to drive down Lincoln Avenue with my eyes closed I could get in a bad accident. I won't, and Ski Corp won't stop offering insurance to their employees. Ski Corp will work with their insurer to offer a mostly employee paid for insurance plan, and Ski Corp will get a tax break on the portion they pay. My other point in the post expressed my disappointment that the article was very one-sided. Where's the view point of the employee who couldn't get health care before? This is where our employer based health care is deeply flawed. If you have a job, but your employer doesn't offer you a way to purchase insurance then where can you afford to buy reasonable health care?

Your first point in your second paragraph is completely false, hardly a fact. A fact is something that exists, reality, a truth. Please back up your assertion that "...the President, our Senators and Representatives don't understand what was just passed". Did you do some sort of survey? Perhaps you are omnipotent? Words actually mean things. When you misuse words, use hyperbole, rhetoric, etc, you are taken less seriously. When you use "seeuski" as your example of someone who uses "facts" you have no credibility.

0

blue_spruce 4 years, 8 months ago

A major reason for the current bill was to include all Americans' in the system before it tanks. I am frankly surprised that more major news media didn't pick up on this. There is no way we can support the current system - with all its waste - into the future. You don't have to be an economist or math genius to see this! Just look at the numbers! Not even close. Its just impossible – with or without the bill! So, ethically, it made a lot of sense to include everyone - so when the **** hits the fan, we don't leave 20M + people in the cold. Come on people – can't we agree that ethically this is the right thing to do?!? We are going to have to start to learn to live "within our means" in terms of healthcare – again, with or without the new bill. Do we really need to spend so much money on a terminal cancer patient so we can extend life by 3 months? Do we need to be so aggressive with mammogram screening when the data shows that there are no better results with this practice, for instance? We are going to have to start rewarding doctors by performance – results – and not just how many procedures they order...and we have to stop spending SO much money on the end of life stuff. NOT an easy pill to swallow. But again, it made a lot of sense to get everybody “in” so when we are FORCED to really re-make the health care system, all Americans will be part of the solution, not just the well to do. If the health insurance companies can reign in the “system” then great. Otherwise we may indeed be looking at single-payer as the only mechanism that can change the fundamentals of how we deliver health care in this country.

0

Scott Berry 4 years, 8 months ago

JustSomeJoe, what are you talking about? Your drible about the ski corp and driving down main street leaves me scratching my head. What is your point?

And, to make mine, you don't seem to take issue with the facts I presented about the history of social security and the governments ability to estimate true costs. What do you really think the actual cost of the medical bill will be? If it is not totally gutted by the incoming conservatives, it will be at least 700% more than estimated over the next ten years. And, that will happen only if they are phenomenally more accurate than they have been in the past. That's 7 billion!

Who is going to pay for that?

0

JustSomeJoe 4 years, 8 months ago

Commoncents - You would have to read the original article and my post to understand it, obviously you didn't.

Love your "at least 700% more than estimated..." unsupported supposition. Oops, I guess that's a fact in your mind.

0

JustSomeJoe 4 years, 8 months ago

Commoncents - You would have to read the original article and my post to understand it, obviously you didn't.

Love your "at least 700% more than estimated..." unsupported supposition. Oops, I guess that's a fact in your mind.

0

Requires free registration

Posting comments requires a free account and verification.