Routt unemployment tops 10 percent in May

Routt’s figure for May is 1.1 percent higher than April, highest since 1992

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— Routt County’s unemployment rate hit double digits in May for the first time in recent history, according to the Colorado Department of Labor and Employment.

Unemployment in Routt County

2010

May: 10.4 percent

April: 9.3 percent

March: 7.7 percent

February: 7 percent

January: 6.8 percent

2009*

December: 6.2 percent

November: 7.1 percent

October: 6.9 percent

September: 6.5 percent

August: 6.5 percent

July: 7.2 percent

June: 8.3 percent

May: 9.2 percent

April: 7.9 percent

March: 6.2 percent

February: 5.7 percent

January: 5.2 percent

*Numbers differ from previously reported figures because they reflect revised inputs, re-estimation and new statewide controls

Source: Colorado Department of Labor and Employment

What readers say

What I think is the most important economic indicator is number of jobs. Size of work force and number of unemployed are not good indicators because they are too easily affected by arrivals of people looking for work and departures of people that cannot find work.

And number of jobs is down 6% from last year, which is pretty grim because last year already had as close to zero construction activity as possible. Not sure where 700+ jobs went from last May to this year. The 12,050 jobs for May in Routt County is comparable to May 2003. May 2007 had nearly 14,200 jobs. That is a 15% decline, which is a severe recession.

And with everything built between 2003 and now, I’d think there would be more jobs related to maintaining property and more shops to staff, so presumably the business environment is really tough.

— Scott_Wedel

For more

To get help filing unemployment benefits or finding a job, visit the Steamboat Springs branch of the Colorado Workforce Center, 425 Anglers Drive. Call 970-879-3075.

Routt County’s unemploy­ment rate hit double digits in May for the first time in recent history, according to the Colorado Department of Labor and Employment.

Routt’s jobless rate was 10.4 percent in May, up from 9.3 percent in April, according to figures released Friday. That’s the highest it has been since May 1992, when it was 12.7 percent, according to the labor agency. Routt’s unemployment was 10.2 percent in May 1993.

“It’s probably what we expected because the labor market is kind of weak right now,” said Brian Bradbury, an employment specialist with the Steamboat Springs branch of the Color­ado Workforce Center. “One thing we have lost since 2007, we’ve lost 3,000 to 4,000 in the labor force, so people definitely seem to be leaving Routt County at the moment.”

The county’s labor force appears to have peaked in Jan­­uary 2008, when it was 17,078, according to state data dating to 1990. Routt’s May numbers show a labor force of 13,453 people. Of those, 12,050 had jobs and 1,403 did not. The labor force decreased by more than 1,000 from April, when it was 14,616.

The numbers for May are not adjusted for typical seasonal changes in employment.

Unemployment in Routt was at 9.2 percent in May 2009. That month, 14,075 people were in the labor force, and 12,779 of them had jobs. The most recent numbers reflect a year-over-year decrease in jobs of 729.

‘Economic stress’

Scott Ford, director of the Routt County Economic Dev­elopment Cooperative, said Routt’s jobless rate is influenced by its small population.

“Small changes can move it one way or the other fairly quickly,” he said.

Also, he said, the federal government has extended unemployment benefits several times, which means some people are holding out longer before accepting a less desirable job or a position outside their field.

Ford compiles economic data for an Employment Economic Stress Indicator for Yampa Valley Partners. That indicator is meant to put the unemployment situation in perspective by measuring the stress it puts on the economy.

To find the number, Ford looks at the percentage change in the number of jobs and the percentage change in the work force throughout a year. If there are more people in the work force than jobs available, that is likely to create stress.

According to the indicator, economic stress because of unemployment probably peaked in May and June 2009. It is still a negative number for May 2010, however, suggesting that unemployment still is creating stress in the economy.

“It is not what I’d call a bright, shining spot, but it is slowly improving,” Ford said.

The whys

May typically is the worst month for unemployment in Routt County, according to figures from the state.

Chris Akers, an economist with the Colorado Department of Labor and Employment, offered observations about the possible causes of Routt’s high rate. Two well-documented reasons are the dramatic decrease in construction and the April closure of Steamboat Ski Area.

Akers also noted the weather as a possible cause.

“The second thing that likely contributed to the higher rate this May was the unseasonably cool and wet spring that most of the state, including Routt County, experienced,” Akers wrote. “While this was good for the snowpack, it delayed the opening of many golf courses and other spring and summer outdoor recreation employers that absorb some of the people who are laid off from the ski resort. These jobs will still be there, but Routt County won’t see their full impact until June.”

He noted that June brings the end of mud season. When the May unemployment rate was higher than 10 percent in Routt County in the 1990s, it fell between 2.5 and 5.9 percent from May to June, Akers wrote.

But Bradbury, of the local workforce center, said he still was seeing little demand for workers this month.

“The unemployment demand has not decreased, so as the summer goes through, we may see higher rates, if the labor market doesn’t get stronger,” Bradbury said.

He noted that out of Colo­rado’s 64 counties, 10 had May unemployment rates higher than 10 percent. Those included Eagle, Pitkin and San Juan counties — home to other resort communities.

Statewide perspective 

Routt’s unemployment rate was higher than the statewide rate of 8 percent. That number has been seasonally adjusted and is down from 8.2 percent a year ago.

“While Census hiring is providing a brief boost in Colorado jobs and our unemployment rate is lower than this time last year, the labor market remains weak,” Donald Mares, executive director of the Colorado Department of Labor and Employment, said in a news release.

According to the release, the unemployment rate decreased in 51 of Colorado’s 64 counties, increased in eight and remained unchanged in five. Those statistics reflect unemployment numbers that have not been seasonally adjusted.

The lowest rate was 3.1 percent in Cheyenne County, and the highest rate was 16.1 percent in Dolores County.

The national unemployment rate decreased to 9.7 percent “due to a decline in labor force participation,” according to the release.

Comments

Scott Wedel 4 years, 6 months ago

What I think is the most important economic indicator is number of jobs. Size of workforce and number of unemployed are not good indicators because they are too easily affected by arrivals of people looking for work and departures of people that cannot find work.

And number of jobs is down 6% from last year which is pretty grim because last year already had as close to zero construction activity as possible. Not sure where 700+ jobs went from last May to this year. The 12,050 jobs for May in Routt County is comparable to May 2003. May 2007 had nearly 14,200 jobs. That is a 15% decline which is a severe recession.

And with everything built between 2003 and now, I'd think there would be more jobs related to maintaining property and more shops to staff so presumably the business environment is really tough.

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seeuski 4 years, 6 months ago

These "economists" are finding reasons for the unemployment rate rising everywhere but the true cause. The Federal Governments failures to implement proven actions which would have stemmed the tide and turned the economy around is the engine behind the continuing depression. Socialism is failing in Europe and we are bailing them out all the while as we allow Obama to steer us towards those models of Governance. When will the Liberals except that Socialism with its higher taxes and bigger Government is a failure? Why do we need to continue the Jimmy Carter experimentX10? And now, Obama is preparing us for his Socialist global takeover with Cap and Trade which will be the death blow to all of us. Prepare yourselves for the Government installing a control box on each home to make sure we don't use more than our allotted number of kilowatts per day, Yea, those IBM commercials of a smart grid is what that is and Franklyn Raines has the patent. But it is always interesting to read the 2 Scotts discussion on the numbers. The bottom line= Obama is a failure in every way.

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Matthew Stoddard 4 years, 6 months ago

So- since Obama took over, what taxes are you paying that have been raised? I certainly haven't had any taxes increased on me. I guess it's just you. Every time I hear some extremist yowl about "the biggest tax increase in history" (said at least 3 times a year) it just seems to pass me by, I guess. Lucky me! I'm the only one that hasn't had his taxes raised!!

So far, nobody has told me what level I HAD to set my thermostat. I keep it a little below 70degrees in the winter...so I can keep some of my money...by my own choice. All I've heard is that should you feel that you need to crank it to 80degrees, you will pay more for more usage. Sounds fair to me. Or would you rather have all others spread the wealth so you can waste energy all you want but not have to pay for it? You are starting to sound like a Socialist now. Must be a new bandwagon rollin' thru town.

So again- which of your taxes have gone up? Please explain. In fact, let's allow all posters to verify which of their taxes have been raised since Obama took office. Give a detailed explanation. Certain people won't be believed without physically showing proof, though. There are people who tend to overexaggerate or flat-out lie on these threads, then defend those lies after they've been exposed thru and thru. I guess it's kinda like having to show your proof of citizenship or original birth certificate. Everyone here is willing to show some actual proof from their own income statements in order to make sure there is no doubt that taxes have been raised, correct? If this is the case, it's your patriotic duty to show the most proof available.

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carlyle 4 years, 6 months ago

Seeuski mentioned nothing about taxes in his post. We will see what happens when the Bush tax cuts expire next year. What is worrisome... the deficity expansion under Bush and dramatically increased under Obama. A good read - "The Price of Liberty" by Robert Hormats - discusses how unique financing Iraq and Afghanistan has been. On the social welfare front, looming cost increases in medicare and social security along with recent expansion of the 'safety net', and the horrific problem of FNMA and FHLMC in conservatorship owning over 95% of current mortgage production will force some interesting choices in DC. We still haven't touched the potential problem with foreign ownership of so much US debt.

The "proven actions" - lowering the funds rate, extending unemployment benefits, not increasing taxes, increasing government spending on infrastructure - have certainly been tried. They are not working very well.

The tradional 'First World' nations have a real big problem.

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Matthew Stoddard 4 years, 6 months ago

carlyle- just to correct you, Seeuski did mention taxes and I quote: " When will the Liberals except that Socialism with its higher taxes and bigger Government is a failure?" Since you are here, carlyle, can you tell us which of your taxes increased since Obama took over?

Remember- the Bush Tax Cuts were never passed as permanent so that expiring is not a tax increase- it's just means that the "sale" is ending.

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sledneck 4 years, 6 months ago

The one person you should never try to fool is you.

The way the government is removing more and more people from the tax rolls and putting the burden on fewer and fewer people it's no surprise that some people don't see (will never see) tax increases. And, truthfully, few Americans have seen sharp tax increases... yet.

A woman can be pregnant and not yet see a baby... but it's comming!

There are several ways peoples taxes can increase: 1. Your payroll, property, sales, inheritance, etc taxes can be increased. Many people don't see these taxes, they just see the leftover $$$ (if any) and take it and run. Companies should stop witholding taxes and the individual should cough up that on his own. That would help people see just how much of their $$$ is taken by uncle sam.

  1. Your employers taxes can be increased resulting in less available $$ for your potential salary increase. Since it's hard to quantify "what might have been" most fail to recognize the lost POTENTIAL wages.

  2. Producers and manufacturers energy and raw materials costs can be increased through regulatory burdens or outright taxes (cap & trade) resulting in increased costs of products. (inflation by government intrusion)

  3. Over-all inflation caused by monetizing the debt (printing more $$$). This puts more dollars into the system and causes the purchasing power of the dollars you already earn/ get to be worth less... or eventually worthless! Inflation is the most insidious way governments rob their people. Not one person in 100 really understands it.

Most economically illiterate people haven't the capacity to see most of these hidden taxes (and there are many more). When the dumb-masses see less groceries in their cart or less gas in their tank their knee-jerk reaction is to blame "big oil" or some other big business for "stickin it to" the little man. All the while never understandung that business is just passing on the added costs of out of control government.

And the government sits back and reads how people don't think their taxes are going up and it just laughs and laughs and laughs. No doubt thinking to itself that its government schools are "doin the trick."

If you jump off the roof of a skyscraper you will, no doubt have time to shout "i'm o.k.". You will still be alive. But only a fool pretends that condition will persist. Just because America has not yet hit the pavement does not mean all is well.

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Scott Wedel 4 years, 6 months ago

You guys are making it impossible to have a rational discussion. You post just about the same messages regarding Obama, federal government and debt on just about every article vaguely related to the economy. We get it - that you are upset and that you think things are headed in the wrong direction, but do you think anyone has yet to hear your complaints? Do you think those comments here do anything than poison the ability of this thread to bring greater understanding to what is happening locally?

Scott Ford had an interesting column in the The Local regarding the local economy and tourism's part in it, and this would be a natural place to discuss that in the context of continued local recession, but what is the point when that sort of discussion is going to be overrun by the same old rants?

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carlyle 4 years, 6 months ago

Polish sausage, I should have said that seeuski did not connect Obama, directly, with tax increases. He did state that socialism leads to higher taxes. My taxes have not increased since Obama took over.

Your argument that the Bush tax cuts were not permanent and, after expiration, not a tax increase, is pure sophistry.

Regarding Scott Wedel's comments - I've read most everything that Scott Ford has written on the local economy. Scott believes that the Steamboat economy has sufficient diversification so that it is no longer apropos to say the local economy is based solely on tourism. He believes that telecommuters will have a significant impact on the local economy going forward. Maybe. As one local telecommuter remarked to me last year, Steamboat creates jobs for 'maids and trades'. Certainly that's what sorts of jobs tourism promotes. Those jobs don't provide the incomes to buy much of anything in Steamboat and its environs, even given the modest fall in prices that we've seen, so far.

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Matthew Stoddard 4 years, 6 months ago

Sophistry to you, maybe. To me, when something goes on sale and then the sale ends, I don't complain that someone raised prices on me. I understand that it was a limited time offer & make the best of it while I can. That is how the Tax Cuts were voted in- on a temporary basis. This is a fact that can't be disputed. Those that voted Aye knew that going in. All that made me do was plan for the future when my taxes would go back to where I was used to seeing them, so I could continue my way of living.

It's not my fault if everyone else miscontrued that as "Tax Cuts Forever" when it said no such thing. Certain people have a way of doing that...in order to fool themselves. It's the same way certain people keep characterizing the Drilling Moratorium as putting people out of work. The way I heard it, it was New drilling permits had a moratorium. I haven't heard anyone say they were shutting down all deep water drill rigs immediately. It's not putting people out of work, but it's also not putting people to work. If a person doesn't have a job, you can't take one away from them.

As I keep saying- both parties have been spending for the last decade- Republicans just wanted to keep borrowing to pay for it while Democrats wanted to to tax people to pay for it. Neither works, but at least by taxing & spending, we own it instead of borrowing from China.

And on this thread, Seeuski didn't directly connect Obama; he just said "liberal." So, ask seeuski if he believes Ronald Reagan was a liberal. He raised taxes more times than Obama has so far.

Good luck to all who only seem to be able to blame everything on Government instead of themselves for voting with bandwagons.

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seeuski 4 years, 6 months ago

There is no real need to respond to "polish sausage" here as the numbers are speaking for themselves but it's fun. As if the Bush tax cuts were a short term sale and we should except high tax rates from now on. Mr. Stoddard fails to understand the impact of the increasing debt as it relates to each of us and what we owe. Matt, our taxes are going UP, do you believe that this Liberal spending will actually be paid for by the rich? You have made many mentions of your supposed Conservatism throughout the last year or so but your continued comments about taxing and spending being needed to fix the economy shows otherwise. You ignore the new health care laws which force all Americans to buy Government approved insurance and you ignore the facts about the Cap and Tax laws which will double and triple everything we buy whether it be electricity or food or gas. You ignore that Obama wants to eliminate certain tax deductions and increase taxes on inheritance and other things. I must say that it is rather disappointing to read what you say in the face of all that is going down but I understand America is in a struggle for it's survival from progressives like you. I believe we will win back our future from the brink because more and more people are awakening to the truth. You my friend are holding on to the silly belief that Obama is trying to fix America when it has become obvious to most that his own words are reality. I have posted his own words on several posts over the months and it is clear his intentions are to create a permanent "spread the wealth" Government. Cap and Tax is the death to our freedom. And, Obama met with Governor Jan Brewer a few weeks ago and promised to let her know in two weeks what he would do to secure the borders, well he has answered. Through Hillary Clinton at a speech in South America we find out that he is going to sue Arizona and leave the borders open. I find that an impeachable offense under his Constitutional duties, do you? Does illegal immigration cost us more in taxes? Gee, I don't know if these will effect us, do you? http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2009/02/obamas-budget-a.html http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/10/senator_obamas_four_tax_increa.html

How long can you continue to pee in the wind?

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seeuski 4 years, 6 months ago

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/104313-obama-hits-golf-course-with-biden-on-another-hot-humid-weekend

If Bush did this every weekend after Katrina what would have happened?

Would anyone trade in Obama for Sarah Palin right now? A Community organizer with NO birth certificate or college records for a former elected Governor born in Idaho who has dealt with big oil and stood up to their lobby with success. Or has SNL destroyed peoples realities? Just a thought.

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John Fielding 4 years, 6 months ago

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I agree with Scott and carlyle that this article provides a good basis for discussion of Scott Fords Local series.

I found his articles very informative, but wonder if some conclusions may be incomplete.

My case in point is the most recent, where the prospect of prosperity from telecommuters is viewed as adequate in growing and/or diversifying the local economy, and all we need to do is keep up with infrastructure and amenities.

The three traditional legs of ranching, tourism, and mining got short shrift as being largely limited as far as growth or diversification potential.

And while his logic supports the conclusion that the location neutral businesses have great current and future value, it does not support any relaxation in the attempts to strengthen the role played by the "big three". . Tourism has a potential to increase its contribution tremendously in a very short time if the right promotions start filling our lodgings to 80+ in weeks when we usually see 40-. Keep those new ideas coming in folks, bike town, tubers paradise, World Class Nordic venue.

What a treat to see the Mustangs, baseball, and rodeo in town again this week, the Strings and the Mountain opening the season. Many happy returns to them all.

Mining is longer term, but its sister (daughter?) is energy production, and here too we should look at potentials that have not had much play. Converting coal to electricity is only the current vogue. Can we harness geothermal resources on a significant scale, convert coal to other value added products, become a research center for more efficient ways to extract and utilize these resources?

There is great cause for hope in what may be coming by expansion of the local college to move in these directions. Well applied education is priceless, lets produce that here too.

And regarding agriculture, it may be true that we can only feed so many cattle in our meadows, but today I visited an old ranch up Elk River that is moving determinedly toward diversification. It is difficult, John Fetcher was right when he noted that this land is best suited for hay and beef. But it can be done with greenhouses, waste energy recapture, and especially select crops that suit the climate.

That is what Strawberry Park was named for, we used to export them, they don't all have to come from California. We would do well to feed ourselves with local produce,and we could.

So lets keep trying hard to do better in all our fields of endeavor. It is only determined perseverance that will ultimately be rewarded with success.

And Scott, it was a great series. If I have not given it due credit it has only been because of my desire to emphasize different aspects. Thank you for your contributions.

.

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Scott Wedel 4 years, 6 months ago

There are two ways to look at economic opportunities. One is to look at what we do now and figure that we can do them much better and defeat the competition. The other way is to look at demographic and other economic trends and expect that we will get our fair share of those trends.

The coal mining industry is not growing rapidly. Maybe there will be breakthroughs that change that, but there is also the possibly that the pollution issues will make it too hard to build new coal plants. Thus, the local coal mining industry should not be expected to grow much.

Ag is great for maintaining open spaces, but it is not a big employer and there is no great trend in ag to expect that it is about to be an engine of job creation.

Tourism is likely to be highly competitive because the prime demographic is declining. Can we steal events and tourists from other towns? Yes, but they could also steal from us and it should not be expected to be a major source of growth.

Location neutral knowledge workers (aka telecommuters) is a rapidly growing sector of jobs. This is a nice area. We only need to get a share in order to see large continued growth in this area.

So if we expect to see telecommuters moving here and bringing their incomes then what sort of secondary effects should we expect? One big trend for location neutral workers is that it is including more and more types of jobs including many modest paying administrative support types of jobs. So the days of the telecommuter being a top employee with the corporate power to telecommute is largely gone. Now it is just as much about having a good reliable worker and with the predominance of electronic documents and webcams, there is little difference if the person is sitting in a cubicle two floors up or in a home office two states over.

So anyway, we are going to see far more telecommuters making $40K-$70K than in the past. So they will not bring back the market for multi million dollar mansions, but instead could be expected to be putting pressure on what we call "affordable" housing.

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Ken Reed 4 years, 6 months ago

It's not just telecommuters (Location Neutral Employees) that will be moving in but also, and more importantly to the local economy, Location Neutral Businesses. A LNB is a company that can be located anywhere and chooses Steamboat. A LNE is a person who works for a company located elsewhere. A LNE might buy a house, eat and shop locally, and get services such as Internet access locally but the LNB makes a bigger impact on the local economy. I started a LNB almost 8 years go in Steamboat and it required getting an office, buying a large printer and lots of office supplies, hiring workers (both local and remote), eating at restaurants and having a yearly meeting/conference in Steamboat where a dozen or so out of town folks come in and stay at local motels, ski, eat out and further boost the economy. Steamboat would do well to encourage these types of businesses (as well as LNEs) to move into the area.

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cindy constantine 4 years, 6 months ago

Very pointed comments, Scott. Thank you. We also need to promote our location as the educational center of Northwest Colorado, especially since CO Mtn. College now has a 4 year program certification in certain majors. Is there still stimulus money for trade schools to retrain the workforce in trades of the future and replacement of retiring workers? We will always need trained mechanics and we have every possible machine from small cars to airplanes, road equip, farm equip, ski lifts, etc. in Routt County. We will always need electricians and plumbers. I believe our location is far superior to other resort towns in promoting secondary education and we have the land in the county to build such campuses.

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John Fielding 4 years, 6 months ago

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Scott, your observations of the status quo are valid. We cannot expect substantial growth in those areas unless we are willing to make the effort to create a change.

As Robert Kennedy said:

"There are those that look at things the way they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not."

The conditions needed for great progress are not those we see now, but those we must create.

.

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mmjPatient22 4 years, 6 months ago

How's this for progress? What if we went to war with Iran next? Why not, right? After all, it's just the next logical country to wage war against in the Middle East. They must need some good, ol' fashioned, American freedom, justice and democracy, right? Well, regardless of your opinions on the current wars that we're waging, an armada of Israeli and American warships, roughly a dozen strong, passed through the Suez Canal with-in the past few days. As former Naval personnel myself, I can assure you that that quantity of equipment and personnel is not moved just for fun. Someone is planning on using those armed forces. Do NOT be deceived; we'll be at war with Iran before the close of the year. http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/138164

And besides, things have gone so swimmingly so far with all the other countries that we're at war with, right? Why not add a country or two to the ol' battle docket? I mean, it's really not even all that taxing on the troops; Iran is right next door to all the other places we're busy blowing up now. Unfortunately, maybe our current measurement of progress is summed up by the 70+ countries in which we currently have Special Forces actively operating? Boy, that's some progress. Almost empirical. For a nation of war, for war and by war(thank you Halliburton), we're doing just great. (insert grain or two of salt here)

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mmjPatient22 4 years, 6 months ago

Maybe we're not highly un-employed?....Maybe we're just ripe for a draft?

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Scott Wedel 4 years, 6 months ago

John, interesting quote - so do you think it means that we should try to grind out some improvements from the status quo (tourism, ranching, mining)? I suggest it is more talking about change, of new industries and so on.

I think that location neutral businesses can be created or move here, but I also suggest that has been true for nearly 20 years and for various reasons, SB has not been particularly effective at attracting LNBs.

I suggest that what is new is the ability for quite a number of people in various jobs to now be location neutral. That now a location neutral business could move to SB, but that most of the business's employees might live elsewhere. That the location of the central office is being ever more independent of the location of the employees.

Could a paralegal employed by IBM live here and it be considered normal? The answer is becoming yes. More and more people are working together that rarely, if ever, see each other face to face. They talk and see each other via video. Now it is often easier to have a group meeting via video than in person.

In this new reality, I think issues like our spotty cell service is going to affect this region's ability to attract people working in higher wage jobs.

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John Fielding 4 years, 6 months ago

OK Scott since you like that one, here is my all time favorite; from Kipling's If:

If you can dream and not make dreams your master If you can think and not make thoughts your aim If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster and treat those two Impostors just the same

Of course we should pursue the main chance for new growth via location neutrals.

But we must not look at our existing industries the way they are and ask why should we expect more from them. We must see what they have not yet become and ask why not.

Imagine some attraction for mud season or early fall, not just outdoor recreation, but Art, Music, Political, Educational.( Or BMX bikes flying off the 90 meter jump.)

Imagine 500 farms each placing 50,000 sf under plastic for spinach in January and tomatoes in June and every other common garden crop in between, selling it locally.

Imagine 1000 modest co-generation plants producing electricity for the grid while using the heat, steam, and CO2 for the greenhouses, fired by natural gas if very small or coal if larger.

You don't have to make dreams your master to believe this is within our existing capabilities.

The most creative minds are naturally optimistic, let us support their visions to build our future.

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Scott Wedel 4 years, 6 months ago

John, Not that those things cannot happen, but should we expect them to happen? Many places want to do educational conferences and such and other places have the institutes and history of doing them, so I would not want to depend upon SB suddenly becoming a major player in that segment. There is a reason that Strings music series happens during the middle of the summer, it is difficult enough to get the sponsors and such to support that during the middle of summer, the losses if it was held during off season would be crushing.

Maybe local farms can use techniques to increase production, but there is a reason that crops are grown in California during the winter - that is still a growing season there. The general philosophy of buying local does not mean trying to grow spinach during blizzards and sub zero temps while it is easy to grow it elsewhere. The idea of building greenhouses here heated by coal for winter production is just bad and certainly not something to expect as a source of jobs.

I'd much rather dream of a future where the typical office worker can work from anywhere and those that like mountains can chose to live in SB. And because this is such a nice place to live that a reasonable number of them chose to move here.

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John Fielding 4 years, 6 months ago

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No Scott we should not expect them to happen, we must create them.

We will not suddenly become anything, we must build it slowly, keeping to small gains or losses and allowing momentum to build on success or let the thing go after a fair trial.

It is easy to get things from elsewhere now, but self reliance has intrinsic value, and we are talking about adding jobs and economic activity locally which importing does not do.

Building greenhouses heated by coal in not "just bad". If you noted the idea is to build small coal fired electrical generating plants which support themselves economically by sales of the main product, power for the grid. Using the "free waste products" of heat, steam, and CO2 for greenhouses makes north country operations feasible.

It increases the demand for that locally mined product, slowly at first, but potentially to a tremendous volume in decades and generations to come.

We are planning for longer than just the next boom / bust cycle here aren't we?

And I support your dream, I only wish you could see why mine is a viable path as well.

But I see that difference in the way you and see things illustrates the truth of the RFK quote.

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Duke_bets 4 years, 6 months ago

John - You do have an imagination. Where are the 500 plots of 1.15 acre parcels to plant the spinach and tomatoes? What ranchers will waste the time to get involved in that program? Who has the money for that program? Are you actually talking about spinach and tomato crops in Routt County? Where are we going to sell those crops? Duke bets the market demand for new spinach and tomato croppers was absorbed 50 years ago.

There is only 1 cut of hay available per year for feed. And, it would be a good idea to grow spinach? That sheet of plastic you have proposed is going to be costly.

Geez...............

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Duke_bets 4 years, 6 months ago

John - One more point / question........Do you have any idea what it takes to turn a field once a year, let alone 3 times a year? I realize that you are only speaking of 574 acres, but 500 parcels with specialty crops is not a possibility. That may be a new imaginative idea, but a farmer doesn't typically plant and harvest 3 times a year in 1 acre sections.

You think veggies are high priced now? Your idea just doubled the price and good luck on finding row weeders.

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John Fielding 4 years, 6 months ago

.

Duke you are right of course from the perspective of conventional agriculture. But the practices of intensive cultivation conducted under plastic in modern "hoop houses" are very different.

If a rancher was given an opportunity to have a generator provided by the utility company, with them providing the maintenance and covering the fuel costs in exchange for the electricity, leaving him with a source of free heat for his home, shop, barn, greenhouse, fish pond, pig shed, or even to sink into the earth to draw out again later, would anyone you know take it?

Consider the billions of dollars spent in electric generation and the huge tax incentives given to producers and you will see where some funding could come from.

The utility companies in some areas will pay for conservation measures so they don't have to build new plants.

Multiple source small scale generation is a practice that is growing rapidly and will be considered common within the lifetimes of most of us.

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ybul 4 years, 6 months ago

The other problem with the hoop growing food in January would be the snow loads, the energy costs even if waste heat will be high on -30 nights. Maybe the energy costs of bringing in the food from Grand Junction or the Front Range would be far less than your vision.

Just because you can do something does not make it more sustainable than doing something else. The subsidies provided to energy companies distort the free market and might have led to the demise of local/regional food systems that used to exist.

Subsidizing a small power plant to produce food in Routt county might lead to energy not being used as efficiently as would occur in a free market (not that we have ever seen one, as free markets must internalize all production costs and never be subsidized).

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John Fielding 4 years, 6 months ago

.

Thank you for making those observations Mr Ybul, I've been having a vision of north Moffat County off and on the last few hours, keeps popping up even through the competition of an 8 year old's birthday party.

I knew someone would mention that pesky winter thing, and I kinda thought it'd be you..

So unsupported half circle hoops are out, and even the Ball Seed "North Face" would need its trussed arches on about 2' centers rather than the 3' or so for the east slope or Great Basin, if you go by the snow load charts.

But I have those same peaked arches on top of my flat roof garage with a ridge beam and with mid span supports in my hillside garden and they almost never accumulate snow, it slides right off.

One time though the conditions were just right and I was out of town. I came home to see about 18'' sticking. Turned out it had been sleet then real cold quick and lots of snow then wet again then froze hard. It was solid as a rock, so I warmed it up a bit and it cracked and came off in slabs that shook the house.

A truly custom design is what I envision, steep south face, north side an insulated wall with reflective interior, thermal mass inside.

But that is a solar heated genera, don;t need to go there if the heat is something that has been being thrown away and is picked up as salvage.

The subsidies are not really necessary for this to be a paying proposition, and its not all about growing food, the point is to add value to coal before exporting the product of local mines, to grow mining too.

The "waste" heat can be used in hundreds of valuable applications. It is the decentralizing of production that allows access to that byproduct.

If I had 100k to spare I'd put one in at my house in town, run on natural gas of course, run it all summer just to keep the electricity sales going and sink the heat into my lot when I didn't need it. Might raise the temp of the Iron Spring though.

Aegis has a sweet self contained unit. See it at www.aegisenergyservices.com /> Their rep tells me that about 50k/month in heating bills is what their units are sized to accommodate on a reasonable recap basis.

I could have twice the heat I use now with a unit one tenth that size, maybe 35 horsepower. Haven't found a manufacturer in that size range yet, and I don't feel like building it myself, got other fun stuff going on.

The real point is the future is coming and the way we are using our resources is changing.

But most things will still be pretty much the same, our kids will just have some nice new tools to use to keep the traditional industries alive and well.

.

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John Fielding 4 years, 6 months ago

.

I just reviewed the www.aegisenergyservices.com link for the first time in a while and found a promotion I was unaware of.

If your facility is large enough: "We will design, install, own, maintain, fuel, and operate a modular cogeneration system at no cost to your facility. Aegis will interface the cogeneration system with your electrical and mechanical systems to provide both metered electrical and thermal energy (heat).

The cogenerated electricity will be provided to your facility at a discount from your prevailing utility electrical rates while heat is provided at standard cost. We are so confident in our Systems and the success of our Shared Savings Program that we will guarantee a minimal annual savings.

In addition to annual energy savings, substantial annual savings ($20,000±) also occur to the Host site through the amortization of the capital cost of the system. Through the host site's purchase of electricity, Aegis is amortizing the capital cost of the equipment... therefore, at any time during the contract period the host site has the opportunity to buy the equipment at a decreasing cost.

* 100% of the original market value during the 1st year.
* 30% at the end of the 10th year
* One Dollar after the 15th year.

Full savings benefit would be realized for many years thereafter with the Aegis comprehensive maintenance program.

end quote

So there is a great example of non subsidized free enterprise at work.

Now if they only made it in a single family residence size, what a lot of jobs could be created.

.

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housepoor 4 years, 6 months ago

While John's ideas may be over the top I must say I enjoy reading them much more than Seeuski’s delusional and paranoid propaganda.

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seeuski 4 years, 6 months ago

housepoor, I'll let history prove my comments right or wrong. So far my posts from the last 2 years are closer to reality then my detractors retorts. I warned of Obama's socialist agenda leading up to the elections. I stated my case against health care that the numbers were fudged by the CBO at the behest of the President and that has proven true. We now are in the midst of Cap and Trade and I have been claiming that it is a conspiracy to spread the wealth globally and make some elitists very rich at the expense of all of us along with other reasons concerning maintaining ruling power over the masses. Everyday we have a new controversy surrounding this White House and today is no different as it concerns a decorated hero in charge of Afghanistan. Some how the WH will have to find a way to blame Bush for it. Ah what the heck, play another round of golf while everyone suffers with either unemployment or the gulf oil disaster. As far as the conversation here on ways to increase revenues in Steamboat, I felt Dukey had it right. I can't believe I said it. We are a resort community and we will continue to suffer in this economy like other similar resort areas are. Don't we have a farmers market on the weekends anyway?

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Duke_bets 4 years, 6 months ago

seeuski - Even you and I can get along. You just made my day.

Have a good one.

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John Fielding 4 years, 6 months ago

.

A little over the top is a good place to be, especially to help others to the summit.

Here are a couple more good ones from RFK that seem to suit this discussion.

"One-fifth of the people are against everything all the time."

"Those who dare to fail miserably can achieve greatly."

.

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Scott Wedel 4 years, 6 months ago

John, Seems to me that your cogeneration idea went from profitably selling electricity to being a large enough consumer of electricity and heat that this company says they can provide electricity and heat for less than your utility company. A pretty big difference because utilities do not buy electricity at the same price at which they sell it.

Yes, we are a resort area, but resort areas are more than just the tourists that visit. Constantly getting easier for more people to live here and to the extent that the Chamber and City spend money to encourage business activity (today those efforts are almost purely for tourism), we may soon be faced with the question of whether we are getting less than our share of location neutral people and whether we should spend some money there.

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seeuski 4 years, 6 months ago

How did you vote on the 700 issue, we are heading into that territory now in these conversations. With all the new mountain dwellers who will work from home here in Steamboat maybe we should re-think things. The bottom line is we can't do anything locally to effect terrible policy decisions and the economy killing Cap and Tax legislation coming from DC and ignored by the "useful idiots" who applaud such horrible Socialist agendas. The lady to the left in my avatar is up against it with an Unconstitutional POTUS who told Sen. Kyl he won't protect the borders without amnesty. Just vote em out.

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Duke_bets 4 years, 6 months ago

seeuski - Unfortunately, the lady to your left can't spell "lady to the left". Palin is 99% of the reason why Obama is president.

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Scott Wedel 4 years, 6 months ago

Presumably the SB 700 parcel has not disappeared and at some point it will be annexed. Hopefully, the next annexation agreement will be clearer with the developer willing to provide specifics on what they will be selling at what prices. I, for one, voted against SB 700 because I thought the annexation agreement that covered the entire parcel used calculations that were going to become "not what we meant" by the time the parcel was actually developed. If a relatively simple contract with the Trousils fails to get the promised trail access then why should we expect a complicated annexation agreement was going to work as promised? And since it covered the entire parcel there would be no incentive for the developer to be reluctant to fully exploit errors because the developer would never need to come back and be approved for another annexation phase.

I would be in favor of a phased annexation of the SB 700 parcel.

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jimmmmmm 4 years, 6 months ago

Hey Seeuski-you forgot to mention Death Panels, birth certificate, Marxism, or how Glenn Beck is your hero. We all know Sarah Palin gets your vote-if you want 4 more years of Obama, then keep up the campaign. If you had a pot to take a wizz in, people might listen to your rhetoric. Again, your just repeating what Cluster Fox told you today while you were eating your cream of wheat. It's amazing you keep pushing lies for your agenda.

Your Kyl rantings are complete BS, and it's no wonder your spouting about it, it's probably all over your news/propaganda outlet.

http://mediamatters.org/research/201006210036

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jimmmmmm 4 years, 6 months ago

Why blame Bush for the oil spill-well there are plenty of reasons, and we're realizing everyday that the decisions of the previous admin. were disastrous. No need to rehash, but while Seeuski blames Obama, Clintion, Dodd, B. Frank, Pelosi, Reid, etc., for everything that's gone wrong, he fails to admit that there were some terrible decisions made by the previous admin., and the oil spill is just a small part of that. Keep an eye out for the results of Bush's deregulation of natural gas exploration-it appears this story is just beginning. But your right, we don't need regulation.

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Jeff_Kibler 4 years, 6 months ago

Talking to an old friend, I joked that I needed a government job. (It took her 9 months to find her current job.)

She just went off:

"You are the wrong race, the wrong gender, the wrong age, the wrong education, and the wrong sexual orientation."

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ybul 4 years, 6 months ago

-- But your right, we don't need regulation.--

Libertarianism does not preclude regulation. It precludes grain subsidies, the department of education, the department of energy and much more. Without some governing body, a free market can not be ensured that it is free. The market needs to be regulated so that we ensure all costs are internalized.

While I tend to agree that cap and trade will simply move money from the middle class to the wealthy, the mercury from power plants needs taxed to ensure that those costs are accounted for. CO2 and greenhouse warming are less straight forward, if you are going to tax that then you better tax the gasses that are more potent and emitted from the mfg of solar panels, the methane emissions from rice farming and on and on and not selectively tax CO2 which excess amounts in the atmosphere can probably be extracted through agricultural practices which build our topsoil.

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housepoor 4 years, 6 months ago

So who wrote the current energy policy?
Good ole Dick and a few energy exec's behind closed doors

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John Fielding 4 years, 6 months ago

.

Scott you're right, my topic seemed to jump around a bit, from promoting traditional industries to pushing new technologies.

But if Aegis can make a profit while creating a savings for the customer of their product it illustrates the point that there is a great deal of valuable resource being lost in conventional large scale generation.

There are a lot of good jobs to be created in efficiency technologies, to be funded through the savings of what we pay for waste.

It is truly a potential benefit for all.

.

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seeuski 4 years, 6 months ago

I am getting more and more amusement from reading the responses from my good friends here as the world of Obama continues to fail and our Country moves closer and closer to Marxism. Obama is following the Columbia Professors Cloward and Piven plan for collapsing the Capitalist economy and creating the cradle to grave Marxist state that will ensure the Progressives stronghold on power into the foreseeable future. This activity did not start with Obama's election but was in the works for decades as Obama was groomed since 1996 for this moment in time. I read it at the Socialists own website weeks ago. Some like jimmmmmmm probably know these things but must keep blaming Bush for our ills while the agenda moves on. Cap and trade has ZERO to do with the environment or global warming but is a financial power grab. P.S. to Dukey Palin kept Obama from winning in a landslide as she brought a lot of voters to McCain who held their noses when they voted for him. I hope the left keeps it up we shall see in a year or 2 how that works out. Just a premonition on my part.

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seeuski 4 years, 6 months ago

I don't make this stuff up, it is in the plan and why Obama won't protect the borders. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AK7K0i...

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pitpoodle 4 years, 6 months ago

kielbasa, you don't seem to understand that your taxes and fees will go up. Somebody must pay for all this stuff, health care and much more. Who will pay? It will be me and you and it will be in the near future. Obviously, you would rather pay than get a tax cut. OK, but you do not speak for me and many others who do pay personal and business taxes, not to mention fee pass-throughs from companies who will pass costs on to consumers. Most of the beneficiaries will be people who do not pay taxes. As far as local economy is concerned, it would be helpful if we had a true chamber of commerce vs a chamber resort association that promotes only tourism. It would be helpful, if we had a council who wouldn't discourage businesses from coming here (like the vote to end the industrial enterprise zone tax breaks). Lastly, do not think Mr. Obama and his congress' decisions have no impact on us, here is Steamboat Springs. The impact is huge from the worst president ever.

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John Fielding 4 years, 6 months ago

.

OK here is a concrete proposal that will provide benefit in the near and long term.

We have an excellent local college that already has programs in resort based subjects.

Lets ask that another focus be added, one that supports expansion of other local industry.

The Colorado State University has outstanding programs in energy technologies and agriculture.

Lets ask that a branch program for some of those studies be established in Steamboat.

But this time lets put our money where our mouth is, and help fund the expansion.

We already have a line item in our property tax for the college, lets vote an increase.

And lets establish a scholarship award for students who peruse research of local value.

We will find many partners willing to participate with funding such beneficial activities.

.

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housepoor 4 years, 6 months ago

I like it John, Colleges and Universities have a stable employment base and although nothing is recession proof they tend to be more resilient to swings in the economy.

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Matthew Stoddard 4 years, 5 months ago

pitpoodle- I understand perfectly. That doesn't mean my taxes have gone up. It means that someone else is raising their prices. It happens all the time. I also understand that this is the how the Extreme Right categorizes anything- if they have to pay more for something, it's automatically called the dreaded "T" word.

So basically, it equates to people calling the government the bad guys because a private business decides to pass any additional costs to you and me. The business could have possibly swallowed the cost, but that's not how capitalism works. And should they decide to pass that cost to you, there is nothing to say you have to buy from them, right? If they really want your business, they'll do what they need to keep it.

So no- I haven't had my taxes go up despite everyone saying they have or will for the last few years. I hear "biggest tax hike in history" every 2-3 months. It never seems to happen or affect me. I'm numb to it and I go on happily in my life.

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ybul 4 years, 5 months ago

--The business could have possibly swallowed the cost, but that's not how capitalism works--

Actually that is how capitalism works. We do not really have capitalism today, we more so have corporate bankism today. historically speaking in this country we have had price depreciation. However, with the inception of the federal reserve we now have inflation (rising prices because of a rise in the monetary or credit supplies) This started in the early 1900s and is all most people know, the extra tax put upon us by the bankers who get to keep part of the new money.

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Scott Ford 4 years, 5 months ago

Hi John - Colorado Mountain College - Steamboat Springs I know explored a geo-thermal institute project that was a collaborative effort with Colorado School of Mines. I think it still may be in the works - but colleges move at their own pace. I know that was (is) going to involve Colorado School of Mines Students spending time (semesters?) on the CMC campus. The new buildings CMC is planning will involve some level of geo-thermal.

On the tech front - a lot of very exciting things are happening.

Locally Jens Owen and Lars Anderson founded the Storm Peak Innovation Center.
http://www.stormpeakinnovations.com/wordpress/

It is loosely modeled after the TechStars programs, which has "campus" in Boston- Boulder - Seattle.
http://www.techstars.org/

A group of tech entrepreneurs types meets at 8:15 am every Tuesday morning at the Steaming Bean. This group was an outgrowth of Ignite Steamboat http://www.meetup.com/ignitesteamboat/

The number of high tech entrepreneurs that have decided to call the Steamboat Springs ares home is surprising. For mountain towns in Colorado - we lead the way in this area as evidenced by the activity that is occurring locally.

The focus of our regional economic strategy is to continue to enhance infrastructure that enables this type of activity to occur and thrive. The link below is to the regional strategy that was ratified by the County Commissioners and City Council at their joint meeting last Monday night.

http://www.yampavalley.info/sites/default/files/Regional%20Economic%20Strategy%20-%20Final_0.pdf

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John Fielding 4 years, 5 months ago

Thank you Scott, for this information and for the valuable service you provide to the community.

You are correct about the pace of colleges, but they can be motivated by community $upport.

.

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Matthew Stoddard 4 years, 5 months ago

ybul- Capitalism is about the free market. While there are regulations, Washington isn't the one sets the price of goods. The market does that. It can influence pricing, though. It is about private profit and what the market will allow one to price something. Someone can price a can of soda or 20oz. bottle of water at $3+ (Las Vegas) and if people pay it, why lower it? I don't remember learning anything about how businesses are not supposed to pass on higher costs by increasing prices to cover it.

Nixon tried price controls from 1971-1973. Human nature took over and said, "You know? I haven't had a raise in years. It's time for one." Why a need for a raise if prices remained flat? Because that's the true definition of Capitalism- "He, who dies with the most toys, wins."

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seeuski 4 years, 5 months ago

I love how Stoddard calls people who are Capitalists and Conservative free market Constitutionalists "extreme far right" like that makes him a moderate instead of a far left wing Liberal. Obama is at the G20 proposing a global stimulus, that won't come from taxes or Cap and Trade no, it will come from higher prices huh Stoddard? Lets not mince words to skirt reality, we are being fleeced by the POTUS in his "spread the wealth" scheme now taken to a worldwide audience of recipients. Those pesky profits of the greedy.

Stoddard's world and his tax level: "It never seems to happen or affect me. I'm numb to it and I go on happily in my life."

The deficit won't effect YOUR life or the lives of your kids? nooooo! As the FED prints more money it dilutes the assets of every American, whether it be savings accounts, IRA or Stocks. You don't have to see a personal tax increase, although it will happen, you just need to understand the devaluation of the Dollar by deficit spending and unfunded liabilities that will make your money much less valuable. We will see it soon enough at the gas pumps and the grocery stores along with higher electric bills. The true definition of Capitalism is Personal Freedom to succeed or fail under free market conditions. The true definition of Socialism "is a centrally planned economy in which the government controls all means of production—was the tragic failure of the twentieth century. Born of a commitment to remedy the economic and moral defects of capitalism, it has far surpassed capitalism in both economic malfunction and moral cruelty." http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/Socialism.html

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Scott Ford 4 years, 5 months ago

John - Thanks for your kind words. The community colleges in our area are very different from each other. Routt County is served by two community colleges, Colorado Mountain College (CMC) and Colorado Northwest Community College, (CNCC).

One of the challenges is how the college views their role in the community. I think every community college struggles with this to varying degrees. It is a struggle that all colleges should have.

The default position colleges often take is that they view themselves as a college in the community. The more refreshing position is that they view themselves as their community's college. Although this is only a subtle shift in wording emphasis - it involves a huge shift in philosophy of college leadership.

From an economic development perspective - CNCC views themselves as their community's college. Their campus leadership is highly visible. Gene Bilodeau (essentially the Craig Campus dean) is on the Craig City Council. He is on the boards of Craig Chamber and the Craig/Moffat Economic Development Partnership. John Boyd the CNCC college president is at almost every significant community meeting in Craig. They are both well know in the Craig/Moffat area. The exchanges you can have with either of them about economic issues in the Yampa Valley is refreshing and informed.

I contrast that with CMC where, other than Randy Rudasics - the manager of the Bogue Business Incubator, CMC seems to me to be largely absent as it relates to the economic/business issues. From my perspective, CMC views themselves primarily as a satellite campus of Glenwood Springs and secondarily as this community's college.

As supporting evidence of this that is still fresh in my mind happened last month. Both Gene Bilodeau and John Boyd of CMCC attended the Energy Summit that took place in Craig in mid-May. As far as I know, Randy was the only member of CMC's staff that attended the Steamboat Springs Economic Summit as a participant. His wife Kathi and a few folks from her office did staff an informational booth about CMC in the exhibitors area. CMC did make a financial contribution to the Economic Summit that I am sure was appreicated. However, it would have been great to see some college leadership either Dr. Stan Jensen, President of CMC or Peter Perhac - the Steamboat Springs Campus dean. It would have been awesome to see both.

I think a great way to begin the needed shift in campus/college philosophy at CMC - Steamboat Springs is to let them know we noticed their leaderships' absence. I cannot believe that Stan or Peter are any busier then Gene or John. The latter two made it a priority to attend an important economic development gathering in their respective community that they are committed to serving.

I would welcome perspectives of others on how to acomplish this shift in philosophy or if a shift in philosophy is even needed.

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Matthew Stoddard 4 years, 5 months ago

Where did I call Capitalists and Free Marketers Far-Right Extremists? I called people such as you extremists. You only parrot what people tell you to. We'll talk again when you can prove you think for yourself without Palin's hand working your strings from a place nobody would normally put their hand.

Is Remedial Reading in order for you? To quote your ventriloquist - You betcha! Come back and play when you take the tin-foil off your head or come up with another personality.

And just to rub it in further:

Since WWII, the GDP vs. Debt % has gone down until Nixon's 2nd term (with Ford finishing it.) Every Republican Pres since has increased that % regardless of whether Congress was Democrat or Republican Control. Carter and Clinton were the only ones since Nixon's 1st term to lower that %, and significantly. W. Bush raised it almost 30pts in his 8yrs, with 6 of those years with a mostly Republican Congress.

Politically, it's a wash. Both parties spend. It's just that ConExtremists want to Borrow and Spend while LibExtremists want to Tax and Spend. Only one actually makes it pay for itself. I'll let you skew numbers to put it how you want since lying about things is the only way you can keep up.

And one last quote: " "You know, Paul, Reagan proved deficits don't matter. We won the midterms (congressional elections). This is our due."

VP Dick Cheney to Treasury Secretary Paul "Tip" O'Neill, 2002, shortly before O'Neill was fired.

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seeuski 4 years, 5 months ago

Head in the sand economics as parroted from the far left talking points where Stoddard lives.

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seeuski 4 years, 5 months ago

And where's the Nazi comment you accused me of? You made the claim weeks ago and never backed it up. No credibility Stoddard. And as for Governor Palin, I could only dream that she was in charge now instead of the nightmare we now have. Her record of leadership in Alaska speaks for itself. Her love of Country is unquestioned. She is against the "fundamental change" to Socialism that you seem OK with. She polls pretty high for someone who has the Huffington post and Daily KOS loonies posting lie after lie all over the internet about her. You betcha, I know what side I am on.

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Matthew Stoddard 4 years, 5 months ago

So you're for Sarah Palin, not the Tea Party? You know she keeps picking against their grain, right? ("insert name here is a common sense conservative!" McCain is a common sense conservative? Fiorina is after spending 6 yrs deflating HP's stock? You betcha is right! LOL!)

Her "record of leadership" involves quitting each time the going gets tough, saying it's for the better of...something...and it seems to be true! Her love of Money, not Country is unquestioned. This is why she quits each time.

What pretty high polls (he says laughingly, knowing that seeuski thinks a poll of 59% and 73% shows the same number) show her current status, since you said "She polls," and not "She polled in the past?" I googled "sarah palin poll numbers" and everything I can find pretty much isn't good. Show me the one you mean. Heck- Obama polls higher than her, and I keep hearing on FOX how his numbers are tanking. RealClearPolitics shows him stagnating his average at about 47% favorable for the last few months. Rasmussen is the only one that skews the average weekly. Even FOX's polls show him higher than Rasmussen. LOL! (Love it when one of the news orgs that has polls won't even quote their own polls because they don't make it seem bad enough! LMAO!)

As for Nazi- I was hoping for this. There was really no need to search. By definition, a Nazi is a shortened term for National Socialist. You call me and others socialist all the time. Make that check out to "Steamboat Arts Council."

You should really think a little harder before accepting challenges without fully defined rules of engagement. If you like, I'll stop by to pick it up for you.

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seeuski 4 years, 5 months ago

Your posts are exposing more and more the serious faults in your silly arguments. You made a definitive statement that I called someone on these forums a "Nazi". If you stop by you won't be leaving with a check, you will be coming to beg for forgiveness for your continuing idiocy. Notice how I don't fall for your Liberal explanation of what and who the Tea Party represents. Keep watching Olberman though, maybe you'll get another plan on how to approach it. Rasmussen has the most accurate track record of polling during the last decade or so, why you keep poo pooing that company is quite telling. I guess it's the shoot the messenger syndrome of the losers in life. And the Nazi's of Germany were, and are, known as the National Socialist Party. That is a specific group and not a philosophy, can you determine the difference between Socialism and Nazism? Greece, Spain, the current US government, France, etc. etc. all are Socialist style Countries, are you saying that they are all Nazis? Too easy.

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seeuski 4 years, 5 months ago

Most reasonable people understood the situation in Alaska with the left wing operatives filing hundreds of bogus ethics violation complaints. Most were systematically thrown out by the courts and the last of em are failing also. Palin had no Executive control of the process and would have to have defended against every one of them using Taxpayer funds. But here we have Obama, who on a daily basis it seems is roiled in Chicago style illegal activity. He currently has all 3 arms of the Government in his control and is in no danger of due process of law, but come November the party is over and we shall see the Impeachment proceedings that is truly deserved of the high crimes we are seeing by this White House. Sestak, Romanoff, Rezko, Stupak and many others will be testifying under oath (not that they honor that) about the corruption that has been the hallmark of this POTUS. But making false claims against Sarah Palin is a feel good for the left and a planned activity to tarnish her through the Lame Stream Media in preparation for the 2012 election because they fear her as a true threat to their power. Common sense will win the day. Main stream America will be fully awake by then. If POTUS uses his executive privilege to add 30 million new illegal voters this Country will go crazy.

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trump_suit 4 years, 5 months ago

And one last thing, there is an Hawaiian elections worker from the 2008 campaigns who is now coming forward and speaking out about the Birth Certificate issue, he is a Democrat. Have we elected a US citizen as the POTUS? Yes or no let the truth be told. Maybe Blago, Romanoff or or Sestak knows. Sorry people, have to have a little fun with these posts.

June 11, 2010 at 7:09 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Stoddard, if you find any post where I called someone on this site a Nazi I will make a $50 donation to the non political fund of your choice. I would prefer something like the Red Cross for example. And as for your political status, you have made many bravado claims of your conservatism but the proof is in the pudding so to speak. When you make a silly defensive statement about Bennett of UT having an 84 ACU rating but ignoring the fact that the guy advocated for a single payer Healthcare system and voted for TARP you are showing your false flag. The voters in Utah are more Conservative than the mainstream at large and they new the facts, not you. And you may have been more conservative than I in the past, but like many in these politically charged times, we seem to have crossed paths somewhere over the last 9 years. Bye Bye Baby.

YVB, I wholeheartedly agree, I begged Libertarians to vote for McCain. I hoped they would hold their noses when casting their ballots but it seems too many went for Ron Paul and we got the Socialist. I believe the movement will instinctively vote together for the most part and I am with you in replacing the leftists.

May 17, 2010 at 11:26 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Very good you two. I see where your alliance is and it is not with the Constitution. As far as referring to me as a MASS MURDERER, pound salt. That SOB was a neo nazi and most of my family was murdered by Nazi's so I hate Nazi's, Communists, Socialists and traitors. Why not spend some time at the website I linked above or do some investigation of your own instead of insulting those of us who love our Country and see the truth. That we are losing it.

May 5, 2010 at 10:10 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

All posted by seeuski. I think he owes the $50

Not even Glen Beck is still hitting on the birther thing seeuski, it is time to let that particular delusion go.

between your constant references to socialism, marxism, communism and Nazi, I think you might owe double.

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Matthew Stoddard 4 years, 5 months ago

Nazism- from Wiki so you can read it yourselves:

Choice cuts:

"Nazism (Nationalsozialismus, National Socialism) was the ideology and practice of the Nazi Party and of Nazi Germany.[1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8] It was a unique variety of fascism that involved biological racism and anti-Semitism.[9] Nazism presented itself as politically syncretic, incorporating policies, tactics and philosophies from right- and left-wing ideologies; in practice, Nazism was a far right form of politics.[10]"

Let's print that last part again: "in practice, Nazism was far right form of politics." Isn't the Far-Right in the USA called Conservative?

"The Nazis claimed that Jews were the greatest threat to the Aryan race and the German nation." Can we replace Jews with Islamics or illegal immigrants? I guess that depends on who's talking.

So if you want to call me a liberal, that's fine because it's just a word to me. Unfortunately, Nazism seems to be shown in history as Far-Right extremism. This is why Moderates as myself don't usually have problems the way you do when one party or another is in charge. We think independently and can adapt. Overcome and adapt. I believe that's a Marine saying, correct? I was Army so me? I "be all I can be." Some people are just happier (or angrier) being only half of all they can be.

(watch out Trump! you might just be called a Liberal or Socialist or worse...a Liberocialist!!) seeuski can keep the $50. He'll need it so he when he's forced by Obama to give it to someone else.

(Hey- didn't Alaska not have any state tax and always apply for Federal subsidies? Doesn't that spread our wealth to Alaska? LOL!

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ybul 4 years, 5 months ago

--Capitalism is about the free market.--

You see the free market is not free as the cornerstone of the free market, MONEY, is not free it is managed by an elite group. Without a FREE MARKET for money you will never have a free market. Those closest to the creation of debt/money will always do better than those furthest away from the creation of money.

Thus the home builder does better than the farmer. The corporation, which can tap bond/stock markets facilitating access to cheap capital will do better than the independent business, that does not have the ability to mint their own money. Thus Bill Gates/warren buffet have more than the average Amish family who simply sell on cash as debt is not something they utilize or believe in.

I think this is where most people fail to realize the true problems that exist in our society and without corrections to address we will not right the US economy and restore the middle class. The other issue with all the ability of Gates to print money is that those pension funds held by our governments are going to line the pockets of CEO's making 10's of millions of dollars while our pension funds are going dry. Yet the left cries fowl and FAILS to SEE THE PROBLEM FOR WHAT it is.

Capitalism is about capitalizing on an opportunity that one sees. If I can make a widget better/more efficiently than another then that facilitates my being able to lower my prices and sell more of my widgets/eggs/lumber than the next guy.

Inflation is about a rise in prices because of a rise in monetary/ credit supplies.

Rising costs are the result of asset appreciation or inflation. Asset appreciation is the result of say lumber becoming more expensive as a new use for lumber is discovered and so its price is driven up by this new use. Inflation is the rise in price of lumber because there is a building boom resulting from an increase in credit/money supplies (mainly money as people buy houses on credit these days) Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac guaranteeing loans to help people buy homes. This makes lenders more likely to lend to them. This artificially creates a supply of debt that would not have come to market.

So while you can claim that the government has nothing to do with prices it has everything to do with prices. On the flip side the government in not working to maintain a free market does not internalize the costs of mercury pollution from power plants making fish toxic in our local rivers. Yet the costs are born by society as a whole not the institution who polluted.

So the regulation of the market is required for the markets to remain free.

I believe I am done with this thread now. However, while you might think of me as being right or left. I am not, I am, I think the rising tea party crowd that realizes that the system is broken and ONLY by returning to a constitutional form of government are we going to overcome the problems we are facing today.

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trump_suit 4 years, 5 months ago

but ybul, the Tea Party wants absolutely no regulation at all. LARGE military, small gov't eliminate EPA, DOE, etc.....

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John Fielding 4 years, 5 months ago

.

Thank you John, that was probably the most concise summary of our economy I've seen.

.Regulations clearly are necessary, including the ones that limit the powers of government.

If only it could be kept simpler, "Thou shall not unfairly exploit Thy Neighbor".

But human nature being what it is, many will always take unfair advantage, remember Enron.

Our task is to find the balance, a plan that will actually work in modern society.

If we work together, with a true dedication to "Liberty and Justice for All", we may yet succeed.

.

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John Fielding 4 years, 5 months ago

.

I meant to say "especially" the ones that limit the powers of government.

.

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seeuski 4 years, 5 months ago

So Trumped-suit, You misquote me and say I owe double? Lets go back and add the posts I was responding to, shall we? " George_Krawzoff (anonymous) says...

This kind of thinking will get us another Tim McVeigh.

May 5, 2010 at 9:07 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal ) " NamVet (anonymous) says...

Seeuski I hate to tell you that we have sent our troops all over the world just like the British did centuries ago. We have troops in more countries than I can count and it seems to increase every day. What would you do invade every country that does not do what we tell them to do? I notice in your many hundreds of posts(you must have the record) you always criticize but you never have any solutions to the problems this country faces today. Remember it was the beloved Reagan(who I voted for twice) that gave the illegals amnesty in the 1980's, busted the unions and opened the doors for the flood of illegals we have today. The illegals are here for one reason and that is JOBS that Americans refuse to do. Employers love them because they can pay them dirt wages with no benefits and this helps them make more money in true Capitalistic fashion. It is the employers that need to be fined that hire them in the first place. If they have no jobs they will not come here. Just to round them all up and send them back is impossible. George is right you sound more like Tim McVeigh more and more each day."

May 5, 2010 at 9:42 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Yea, I'll stand by my response and double down on you, I called Tim McVeigh a Neo Nazi, is he the person who you want to defend here in the Stoddard Libel of me?

Now go out and enjoy the day you nut.

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seeuski 4 years, 5 months ago

When will you people realize you're wrong most of the time?

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ybul 4 years, 5 months ago

Trump, I think you are wrong, and maybe the Palinites want what you describe but not most I met within the Tea Party thought process.

On the DOE, the Feds have no business in Energy or education. Those Issues are better left to the local govts or the private sector.

Most I have spoken with in the Tea Party want our troops brought back within our borders.

Currently the EPA does nothing to internalize the costs of production and is a complete failure in my opinion.

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seeuski 4 years, 5 months ago

This won't cost Americans anything,NOOOO not a chance. Just another example of the stealth taxes that Obama is hitting us with quietly. But he won't raise taxes on 95% of Americans. Just the rich. http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE65P0VP20100626

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seeuski 4 years, 5 months ago

True ybul, But the left needs to maintain a false perception of the Tea Party movement to weaken us come November. It will fail.

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seeuski 4 years, 5 months ago

Sign the petition to the Imam of the proposed ground zero Mosque if you are against this wrongful act. http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/

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trump_suit 4 years, 5 months ago

Sorry seeuski, no misquotes there. Those were directly cut from your comments and pasted into the comment. Stand by your words or stand down.

Without regulation, the free market will eat it's own young to produce a profit.

Ybul, I disagree, the Tea Party is such a fractured organization that you can find most of the extreme right ideas within it's membership.

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seeuski 4 years, 5 months ago

Trumped-suit, Your understanding of the English language is suffering. I was accused of calling someone on this forum a Nazi, not that I was referred to as a Nazi. Your flawed research proves MY case as I properly identified McVeigh as a Neo-Nazi in the post you referenced. Got it? Now move on to what you can comprehend as this is a touchy subject.

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ybul 4 years, 5 months ago

I suppose you did not read where I stated that the role of the government is to regulate. This to ensure that everyones private property rights are protected.

I think you have a delusional version of the free market. In a free market people decide what to buy and who from for what price. When someone's prices go up those who want to buy have the opportunity to choose another producers product instead.

Hmm, eating there own young, that more sounds like a mafia ruled marketplace not a free one.

As far as the most extreme right. I also met the extreme left when campaigning for Dr. Paul. Yep it covers all walks of life and that is what the talking heads fear is the awareness of our constitution and what our country is about. Not the propaganda that the corporations feed to us, that includes the slander to tear apart the Tea party movement.

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sledneck 4 years, 5 months ago

The free market IS regulation.

It's not free market AND regulation.

Free markets regulate themselves. What many people incorrectly assume is that regulation is needed to keep someone from getting hurt. WRONG! Getting hurt is what regulates the free market. Some get hurt bad enough to learn valuable lessons. Some get wiped out from their foolish gamble of excessive greed. Others make boatlloads of $$$ off numbskulls who think someone else outta be protecting them. And the funny thing is we all play each of those roles some of the time; one day the windshield, next day the bug. Thats how we learn. If we don't learn we lose... good!

All of that is good, healthy and desriable in a free market.

The trouble is not free markets, it's that too many Americans wouldn't recognize real freedom if it smacked them in the mouth. It's not freedom till youre free to get screwed. It's not freedom till your winnings are yours to keep.

I truly believe more than half of this nation is no longer capable of living in a free society. They need their mommy...

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ybul 4 years, 5 months ago

Requlations is required to ensure that a producer does not trample upon the private property rights of another or the environment in general, or at least has some way of internalizing those costs that arise from that activity. If you allow power plants to spew mercury into the environment so that we can no longer fish in certain waterways how does any one learn from that?

I can not stop them from doing so. I have a hard time choosing what power to use and the producer of widgets who needs power is going to choose the least cost provider of power (if that were really an option out there) to produce there goods at the most cost effective manner, so that in a free market they will be competitive and have a better chance at making a profit on there goods.

In this scenario, the general public has been harmed and the polluter who has polluted should pay for there damages. If the public agrees that they want this service, some sort of regulation, fees, something needs imposed such that the TRUE costs of producing that power (or whatever that harms the public with little direct damage) is internalized.

As such the free market needs some way of imposing impact fees to internalize production costs.

We need some way of correcting for problems we did not know were going to occur if a technology is in place to allow its use and also try to internalize all of its cost of production.

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seeuski 4 years, 5 months ago

Recently I was assailed by a certain forum member here for my depiction of advertised polling data. The forum member was attempting to discredit my opinions by pointing to imagined inaccuracies in the polls which I cited regarding several issues including the Arizona SB1070 law. That individual was using data from left leaning sources that are now being reported to have been fabricated. The left in the Media are using tactics from the Alinsky rule book in order to influence the public and defame more honest Media outlets while defaming the Tea Party groups. http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2010/06/kos-pols-faked-to-continue-the-lefts-destruction-of-america.html

The awakening won't be stopped by these tactics.

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Matthew Stoddard 4 years, 5 months ago

Were you speaking about me? (oh please, oh please, oh please!!)

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seeuski 4 years, 5 months ago

Paranoia big destroya. So much for your high and mighty polling numbers you quoted. I expect no contrition on your part though. That's 2 down in as many days.

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sledneck 4 years, 5 months ago

No, thats where you err ybul. If the public agrees that they want this service they would pay for it. If the public agrees they want an upgraded, mercury free, tuna free, dolphin free, green, sustainable, affordable, equitable, happy meal then they will pay for it and it will appear on the open market. Guess what? It ain't there.

The public you claim has been harmed by mercury has enjoyed low cost electricity for decades. Their compensation for mercury was low electric bills. If you ask them if they want their electric rates doubled to reduce mercury by 5% most will tell you to get bent. You don't advocate the publics will you advocate your own.

The free market imposes every factor onto every transaction at the speed of thought.

You want YOUR will imposed on the free market. The market is way smarter than you. It has long known of mercury, lead paint, asbestos, greenhouse gasses, global warming, asteroids, etc and it has considered all of those things. It's conclusion is that the current state of conditions is a just and equitable arrangement. THATS WHAT THE FREE MARKET DOES. It draws conclusions CONSTANTLY and re-evaluates its values as often as you inhale.

The market is NEVER wrong. The market is NEVER right. The market simply continues to fluctuate. The individuals who expect the market to account for them are the ones who are perpetually dissappointed.

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Matthew Stoddard 4 years, 5 months ago

First of all, I believe this was the thread in question? http://www.steamboatpilot.com/news/20...

I started by correcting Fred and you had to try and explain how a higher number was correct…except you were quoting info that was 2-3 weeks old, and standing by it in the face of newer information. Fred provided the Pew Research data originally, so forgive me for not knowing that they get their information directly from the Daily Kos. I guess that’s what you are referencing with that link, although I never referenced them in my posts on that thread. Somebody might just be having a separation from reality or something, because I have no clue where you got that from.

1) Fred Duckels spoke about a Pew Research poll saying 73% of the country agreed with Arizona's law on 13MAY at 12:08pm. This was the Pew link: http://pewresearch.org/pubs/1591/public-support-arizona-immigration-law-poll

2) I corrected and challenged Fred when that percentage only endorsed 1 specific line item of the law on a poll that asked 4 separate questions pertaining to the law. (Fred never owned up to the mistake, by the way.) The law in total was only supported by 59%...14pts below what was on Pew’s site per Fred’s post. In an election, winning by more than 10pts is usually deemed a landslide, so it’s a large difference between the 2 numbers. I even said that it was still a majority. I wasn’t arguing that point, just the amount.

cont'd.

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Matthew Stoddard 4 years, 5 months ago

cont'd from above:

3) At this time, seeuski makes some comment about polls being intimidating or some such nonsense, and then goes on about that drop in numbers relating to the increase on the disapproval. The disapproval only gained 9pts in that aspect. Whatever seeuski’s point was on that part…???? And yes- it was an extremely intimidating poll!!! Read it yourselves, if you care.

4) At 13MAY 4:20pm (wow- the time might just be significant. I missed that originally!) seeuski then makes reference to an original poll he quoted (and nowhere prior in that thread did I find any mention by seeuski of this poll so it must have been somewhere else) linked here: http://www.numbersusa.com/content/news/april-22-2010/rasmussen-poll-says-70-arizona-residents-support-immigration-enforcement-bill.htm

5) Remember- this is all on 13MAY, so I remind seeuski the link is from 3 weeks prior. It also was 70% or Arizonans, not the general populace. Granted- Fred didn’t say all of Americans, but didn’t say Arizonans. The Pew Poll and the specific number Fred quoted led me believe that I picked the right one he meant. This goes on with me being a “radical” for questioning why the wrong data was used and going back and forth full of nonsense.

6) Here’s an even further update, but still about 2 weeks old, from that other left-leaning poll-rag, Rasmussen, that states only 58% would support a law like Arizona’s in their state. It’s down a point from the Pew Poll. It must have been an even more intimidating form of the question. It’s the single line after the first two paragraphs. http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/immigration/56_oppose_justice_department_challenge_of_arizona_immigration_law

(I had this ready 5hrs ago. What took you so long?)

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ybul 4 years, 5 months ago

Yes people are not going to want to pay more for there power. However, the true cost of production is not accounted for and needs to be.

I suppose I could pose a class action suit to get zero emissions of Mercury as harm can be shown. That would help to ensure that my private property rights are not trampled on by the emissions of mercury which make it into our water ways. Just like the acid rain caused by pollution is taking from others in water supplies that could not support life, mercury is causing issues today, wether you agree or not.

There is no way to extract the mercury from our watersheds that is unnaturally added to provide your mercury free tuna.

Suppose we agree that we need to disagree.

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seeuski 4 years, 5 months ago

Awfully defensive aren't we Stoddard?

I'll let you fiddle around with the polls that you now want to claim as your own while I will shake my head at the manipulation of polls by left wing sources you so love to tout as THE accurate source. I stand by my original number of 70% of Arizonans support the law as was reported in several news reports. It was several weeks later when your favorite polling sources skewed the numbers and then you attempted to discredit my posting the original more trustworthy polling numbers.

That's 2 flubs on your part lately. Quit while you can.

P.S. I suggest you go back and read your post with the Pew numbers and then read the actual law sb1070, which I am sure you haven't read, and you may see that the 73% that support checking status most closely matches the actual law. My suggestion that adding the lingo "Arizona's law" to the poll causes support to go down is related to the Media and the POTUS condemning Arizona's law without having read it. Bottom line to me is that it shows some people are so dimwitted they would vote for and support someone who puts the Country in jeopardy by not supporting the border states over the illegals strolling across the open border. If Obama respected the Constitution it would be done and he would not send in the lawyers to sue AZ. But then again this is the same POTUS who had the charges dropped against the New Black Panthers. What else would I expect?

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Matthew Stoddard 4 years, 5 months ago

1) "I stand by my original number of 70% of Arizonans support the law as was reported in several news reports."

Where is that post in which you said Arizonans? Even Fred didn't say that in his post. Can't find what you are talking about; only a general 70% in that thread, so you were wrong.

Prove me false.

2) "It was several weeks later (yes- because nobody's views change after time)when your favorite polling sources skewed the numbers and then you attempted to discredit my posting the original more trustworthy polling numbers."

Show me my "favorite polling source" that skewed the numbers. That liberal hack Fred Duckels provided the Pew Research info. I just found the link and put it in it's correct context. I usually go with Real Clear Politics as an average of most polls, in which Rasmussen always has the numbers that skew the average. Heck- even FOX's poll ranks with everyone else's except Rasmussen.

So, show me what you consider my "favorite polling source" and where I quoted that particular source.

3) "P.S. I suggest you go back and read your post with the Pew numbers and then read the actual law sb1070, which I am sure you haven't read, and you may see that the 73% that support checking status most closely matches the actual law."

I read it over a month ago. The law includes all 3 parts (the breakdown questions) of the 4 questions in the Pew Research Poll that the socialist Fred Duckels first pointed out, not just the one that 73% agreed with at the time. It meant that the more you tacked on, the less people liked the law in total. How dare he?!?!

4) "My suggestion that adding the lingo "Arizona's law" to the poll causes support to go down is related to the Media and the POTUS condemning Arizona's law without having read it."

When was that suggested? You only suggested something about 100% would vote a certain way if La Raza knew who voted. Yes, and if I had a wheel, I'd be a wheelbarrow. Unfortunately, there was no such question discussed.

Provide a link where your suggestion shows just what you said it did from that thread."

5) "Bottom line to me is that it shows some people are so dimwitted (says the one with Palin on their icon)they would vote for and support someone who puts the Country in jeopardy by not supporting the border states over the illegals strolling across the open border."

And we both voted for that illegal-lovin' GW Bush, correct? Ohhhh, that's right. He did secure the border. Obama just tore down the ConExtremist Wall with a single sneeze! "Mr. Obama, tear down this wall," was what Mexico said...or was that Reagan?

Man up and prove yourself, you lying national-socialist...and I say that with love in my heart because that's the muscle that pumps love. At least, that's how I know you feel when you call me liberal.

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Matthew Stoddard 4 years, 5 months ago

Oh, and I forgot the most important part:

.75) "I'll let you fiddle around with the polls that you now want to claim as your own while I will shake my head at the manipulation of polls by left wing sources you so love to tout as THE accurate source."

Yes, because we all know how the difference between certain prime numbers can be confusing and intimidating to you. I bet this NDS you have was most likely brought about in 2000, when Al Gore won the popular vote and GW Bush won the Electoral vote.

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Duke_bets 4 years, 5 months ago

seeuski - Keep debating with Stoddard. This is hilarious and you are getting smoked. He is right.........You only spew Limbaugh extremist views. You have no opinion of your own. And, by stating that you could only dream that Palin was in charge reflects on the intellect level of your propaganda.

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sledneck 4 years, 5 months ago

Wrong. The true cost of production IS accounted for. The market has determined that the true cost is X amount of dollars/ killowatt hr. AND X amount of pollution. Those combined results are todays cost of energy.

Decades earlier the ratios showed less concern for the environment than it does today. In the future the market will likely show more concern for pollution and trend toward higher energy prices.

The pollution associated with you driving your car infringes on my right to clean air too. But do I really have a right to clean air? And who says how clean is clean? The air is cleaner than ever (in modern times).

I agree that mercury might be causing problems. I agree that it is a result of energy production. The fact, however, is that the market has determined that current mercury outputs are a reasonable trade-off for currently priced energy. My personal belief is that I want relatively similar energy prices and I am willing to accept todays mercury levels to get it. You want lower mercury levels and are willing to pay a premium for energy to get it. Matters not what we want. The market, as a whole has brought us to todays balance of price/ pollution. Not one damn thing you or I can do about it.

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Matthew Stoddard 4 years, 5 months ago

seeuski (or are you really Michael Steele?) - Uh-oh! That Commie news organization FOX News has a new poll out where nationally, now only 52% agree with Arizona's law! WTF??? They must have told some of them that La Raza was going to be told!

http://video.foxnews.com/v/4269112/new-poll-majority-favor-arizona-law/?playlist_id=86858

To quote Jay Sean: "Baby, are you down, down, down, down, down?"

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sledneck 4 years, 5 months ago

One characteristic of communism is to call black white and white black.

In calling FOX NEWS "communist" you emulate that characteristic.

Communists are like YOU... not like Fox.

Communists favor the state over the individual. Communists favor big government over small. Communists call freedom loving people communists, nazis, fascists in order to demonize them.

Fox News is a lot of things... some good, some bad. Friendly to the communist ideal is not one of them.

Try again.

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Matthew Stoddard 4 years, 5 months ago

If you haven't been paying attention, don't join in. Happy 4th!

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ybul 4 years, 5 months ago

--The fact, however, is that the market has determined that current mercury outputs are a reasonable trade-off for currently priced energy.--

Son, the market has not determined that the EPA has. The costs of those impacts are born by people who may not even use electricity from a coal fired power plant.

One might even look to the power plants in NE Arizona which belch out emissions into Colorado and NM, yet the power is used in Phoenix and Tucson. The impacts of the cheap power are born by people not using the power and the majority has said we want the cheap power.

That is the will of the majority trampling the private property rights of the minority because they want their "needs" met not considering or reimbursing the costs that others pay so they can have cheap electricity.

That is not a free market that is governmental regulation of maximum levels of pollution.

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sledneck 4 years, 5 months ago

So government regulated pollution levels are too high??

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ybul 4 years, 5 months ago

I never said they were too high, simply that they are regulated and the negative effects are not figured into the production costs.

Wind energy has little/no negatives, nuclear except for the disaster (which surety bonds/insurance should cover) has its costs figured in, coal gets a free pass when it sends its emissions out into the world.

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StopTheBrutalChemtrails 4 years, 5 months ago

John Gormley: Fluoride, GMO and the Rockefeller Communist ‘Coincidence’!

Neil Foster Sovereign Independent July 5, 2010

The facts on fluoride listed below are fully referenced for anyone doubting the science behind the clear evidence that fluoride in public water supplies, toothpastes etc is detrimental to human and animal health.

Fluoride FACTS

• Fluoride Is A Carcinogen Fluoride was found to be an equivocal carcinogen by the National Cancer Institute Toxicological Program. Ref. 1 Further studies by the New Jersey Department of Health have now confirmed a 6.9 fold increase in bone cancer in young males. Ref. 2 Earlier studies had found a 5% increase in all types of cancers in fluoridated communities. Ref. 3 • Fluoride Increases Hip Fractures Drinking fluoridated water will double the number of hip fractures for both older men and women. Ref. 4&5 Extremely low levels of water fluoridation 0.1 ppm still produced statistically significant increased hip fractures. (Bordeaux Study JAMA 1994) • Fluoride Increases Infertility Infertility in women was found to increase with water fluoridation. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) scientists reported a close correlation between decreasing total fertility rates in women between ages of 10 and 49, and increasing fluoride levels. They also reported that a review of all the animal studies done to date shows that fluoride adversely affects fertility in most animal species. Ref. 6 • Fluoride Increases Fluorosis Opaque white spots and brown ugly teeth caused by fluoride is called Fluorosis. Fluorosis currently affects one out of five or more children in this nation although it is rarely seen in California. California is the least fluoridated state with less than 16% of the population drinking artificially fluoridated water. • Fluoride Does NOT Reduce Tooth Decay Fluoride is not effective in reducing tooth decay. No correlation was found between the level of fluoride in water and dental caries. Ref. 7,8,9,10&11 There appears to be a genetically related increase in tooth decay for Hispanics, Indians, Native Americans and Asians. Decay is related to the educational and economic level of the parents. Ref. 12,13&14 • Fluoride Is Unapproved By FDA The FDA considers fluoride an unapproved new drug for which there is no proof of safety or effectiveness. The FDA does not consider fluoride an essential nutrient. • Fluoride Is Highly Toxic The International Academy of Oral Medicine and Toxicology has classified Fluoride as an unapproved dental medicament due to its high toxicity.

References 1. Maurer, et. al., Fluoride an equivocal carcinogen J. National Cancer Institute 82, 1118-26, 1990 2. Cohn, Perry D. Ph.D. An Epidemiological Report on Drinking Water Fluoridation and Osteosarcoma in Young Males New Jersey Department of Health, Environmental Health Servi... http://www.prisonplanet.com/john-gormley-fluoride-gmo-and-the-rockefeller-communist-%E2%80%98coincidence%E2%80%99.html

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