GOP candidate Bob McConnell enjoys boost from Palin endorsement

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By the numbers

Fundraising totals for leading congressional candidates in Colorado’s 3rd District. Salazar and Tipton last filed a report June 30. McConnell last filed a report July 21.

Candidate / Raised / Spent / Cash on hand

John Salazar (D) / $1,208,215 / $417,258 / $1,255,711

Scott Tipton (R) / $360,089 / $155,095 / $204,993

Bob McConnell (R) / $156,917 / $132,341 / $24,576

Numbers are based on summary reports filled by the candidates with the Federal Election Commission and may not represent exact figures.

Source: www.opensecrets.org

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Bob McConnell

Learn more

■ Learn about Steamboat Springs’ Bob McConnell, Republican candidate for Congress, at www.mcconnellforcongress.com. Contact McConnell at bob@mcconnellforc... or 970-846-4907.

■ Learn about Republican congressional candidate Scott Tipton, a state representative from Cortez, at http://votetipton.com. Contact him at scott@votetipton.com or 970-985-8699.

■ Learn about the Democratic incumbent, U.S. Rep. John Salazar, of the San Luis Valley, at www.salazarforcongress.com. Call his Grand Junction office at 970-245-7107 or his Washington office at 202-225-4761.

— Within 10 days of receiving an endorsement from former vice presidential candidate and Alaska Governor Sarah Palin, Bob McConnell said, he received interview requests from Time Magazine and the RedState conservative news blog, financial contributions from across the country and a huge increase in page views to his website.

“It’s been pretty incredible,” said McConnell, a Steamboat Springs resident running against state Rep. Scott Tipton, of Cortez, for the Republican nomination for the U.S. House of Representatives.

Tipton and McConnell were on the road Wednesday, campaigning across southwestern Colorado as they enter the home stretch of a primary race that appears closer than many would have expected just a few months ago.

McConnell, a military veteran, former lawyer and self-pro­­claimed “Cowboy Colonel,” received about 45 percent of the delegate vote at the GOP’s 3rd Con­­gressional District Assembly on May 21 in Loveland. Tipton received about 54 percent. The winner of the Aug. 10 primary will challenge incumbent U.S. Rep. John Salazar, a Democrat from the San Luis Valley, for a seat in Congress.

Tipton could not be reached Wednesday, but he touted his small business experience in a news release. In his second campaign across the Western Slope — he lost to Salazar in 2006 — Tipton holds a huge fundraising lead against McConnell, with more than $204,000 on hand as of June 30 compared with the more than $24,000 on hand McConnell reported July 21.

McConnell implied Wednes­day that the Palin endorsement could narrow that gap.

McConnell said he and his campaign team initially approached Palin through e-mails and phone calls that eventually resulted in outreach from Palin’s staff.

“We worked hard for that, and I pursued that endorsement because she represents values that I respect,” McConnell said Wednesday. “We need conservative, constitutional leaders.”

McConnell said he was in Cortez earlier this month when he got a phone call telling him about Palin’s upcoming endorsement. In a sign of the times, it happened on her Facebook page.

“We watched it go live on her Facebook and watched the almost immediate reaction,” McConnell said, referring to hits on that website and his. “The feedback has been, ‘Wow.’”

Palin endorsed McConnell and Paul Gosar, a candidate for Arizona’s 1st Congressional Dist­rict, in a Facebook post July 19.

“Bob knows that in times like these ordinary citizens must be bold and take a stand to return our country back to our Constitutional roots of limited and fiscally responsible government,” states the post, which had drawn hundreds of comments and 5,895 expressions of support, or “likes,” as of Wednesday.

McConnell said he never has talked with Palin and can’t quantify the financial contributions he’s received as a result of her endorsement. But it’s definitely playing a role in his campaign.

“Gov. Sarah Palin endorsed me for a good reason — I’m the leader in this race,” he said in a video on his website that responds to the endorsement.

But McConnell said he’s neither done nor seen any polling on which to base that claim of leading the race, where he trails in fundraising and delegate votes.

“My sense of being ahead is just the enthusiasm that continues to roll around me in continuous ways,” he said.

Much of that enthusiasm is from the tea party movement, which McConnell has appealed to with his calls for a “massive reduction in federal spending” that could mean abolishing the federal Department of Education, cutting federal poverty programs, ending the Federal Reserve and reorganizing the federal Department of Defense.

McConnell signs off the video with a statement signifying the aggressive tenor of his campaign and message.

“Send Bob to Congress — I dare ya,” he says.

Comments

freerider 4 years, 8 months ago

GOP= Greedy Old Pimps .....what a tool ...Sarah Palin endorsement and this guy is kissing her backside instead of running ...hey Grand Pa GOOD LUCK WITH THAT !!!!

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seeuski 4 years, 8 months ago

Maybe visiting with Bob on his next trip to Steamboat and telling him in person how you really feel.

Ron Paul ain't running for the 3rd district here either.

Ron Paul = Radical GOPer who is wildly anti abortion and would repeal R v Wade and dump Israel. Good luck with that.

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trump_suit 4 years, 8 months ago

What exactly do you mean See? Your ranting above makes little sense in the context of this article.

I like Bob, but his extremist views on some topics will probably limit his success. We will see how all of the Tea party favorites fair in the General Election.

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George Krawzoff 4 years, 8 months ago

Let's see, his nickname is Angry Mob Bob and See is inviting Freerider to tell him he's a loser to his face. Hmm, the veiled threat seems pretty clear to me.

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Matthew Stoddard 4 years, 8 months ago

So, the article said that McConnell had to send emails and call Palin to get an endorsement. Sounds like begging, to me. Did she not just offer up an endorsement based on his record? Was this what tied him up so he couldn't be at the Craig Tea Party dealie a couple weeks ago and had to send his wife, instead?

How much did he have to pay Palin for the endorsement? She's all about the Benjamins!!

Plus, out of all 3 candidates listed war chests in the sidebar, McConnell has spent almost 85% of his while the other two haven't even scratched the surface of their amounts. There's fiscal responsibility for you.

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seeuski 4 years, 8 months ago

Bob's most extreme view is the FED. Does anyone know what the heck the FED does other than control the market and the value of the dollar? We have no oversight and historically since the inception of the FED our highs have been higher and our lows much lower, but maybe people like bubbles. And the Dept of Ed, what a waste of money, things should be managed on a much more local level not Nationally. It seems obvious who the few vocal mob members here are voting for. And George, I know Bob personally and I don't see how the name you are associating him with here fits. Trump, It has to do with freeriders continual derogatory references to the Republicans, who Ron Paul happens to be a member of, an extreme one at that. And I would expect that from 1999.

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seeuski 4 years, 8 months ago

I just wonder if you people are watching what the Obama White House is doing? Things like the new FrankenDodd bill and the fact that the SEC now is a secret Government program not having to answer to any FOIA's. What are Obama and his minions planning on hiding through there? You people can't be fine with that, we already have the FED. We are still on the hook with Fannie/Freddie, how was that not the main focus of the FrankenDodd reform? Are you people awake? Maybe some cold water will help.

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greenwash 4 years, 8 months ago

Your kidding , right ? You really cant be that stupid ? Or mabye you are...

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Matthew Stoddard 4 years, 8 months ago

Oh yeah. See's that stupid. And I'd rather be at the mercy of Elvis than to ever vote for an extremist. Thank you. Thank you ver' much.

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seeuski 4 years, 8 months ago

You know you are on the right track when they call you names but can't argue a reasonable point. One name caller here has already gone too far and would be wise to ease up.

I am reacting to what I am seeing in this POTUS's policies like it or not. If you like it then you are for the "Fundamental transformation" from free market Capitalism to a Marxist state. Can't be any simpler than that.

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Matthew Stoddard 4 years, 8 months ago

There can be no argument against the self-imposed stupid people. Ridicule is the only way to pass the time. And I didn't call you a name- I described your thought processes.

"One name caller here has already gone too far and would be wise to ease up."

Yeah...whoever you are! Wise up! (Janet Weiss!)

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sledneck 4 years, 8 months ago

"Vote for an extremist"?... My guess is that you did... last November.

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seeuski 4 years, 8 months ago

Many people who don't post on these forums but do read them may disagree with whom one self loving individual here sees as the "self-imposed stupid people".

A person who has no point of view but does nothing more than incorporate childish Saul Alinsky name calling. What a talent! It is quite obvious who the Alinsky-ite voted for. Maybe POTUS's appearance on The View swayed his vote again, since so many fell for it the first time around. "Hope and Change" Not one answer as to what they were hoping that change would be. We know now though what the new King meant.

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mmjPatient22 4 years, 8 months ago

Here's a fun, late in the game, hail-mary-curve-ball change in our state's gubernatorial race: Apparently, Tom Tancredo is now in the race on behalf of the American Constitution Party. He's claiming to be THE conservative choice for Coloradans and he's hugely opposed to illegal immigration. After all, his announcement was made while he was wearing a US Border Patrol hat and he pledges to work towards enacting an Arizona-like immigration law right here in Colorado. Only thing is, if elected, he'll be the first Governor in Colorado state history to be elected from a third party.

http://www.9news.com/news/article.aspx?storyid=145912&catid=339

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Matthew Stoddard 4 years, 8 months ago

sled- Voted 3rd party, as I tend to do more often than not. Sorry to disappoint.

See- You're correct- a lot do read and feel as I do about people like you. Thanks for pointing that out!

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housepoor 4 years, 8 months ago

Being associated to Palin in the general election is a kiss of death, if he's smart he won't even mention her name

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Jeff_Kibler 4 years, 8 months ago

I agree about Palin. It's also interesting how many Democrats are distancing themselves from Obama.

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Scott Ford 4 years, 8 months ago

If Mr. McConnell is successful in winning the Republican primary on Aug 10th, the vote in November will rest on a simple question. Will Bob make it better or will Bob make it worse? I think regardless of one's political persuasion it is hard to imagine congress being worse. Although I fully recognize the possibility exists.

I believe that Bob is authentic - what one sees is what one will get. Although I disagree with many of Bob's proposed solutions, I have a huge respect for him and his willingness to run for public office.

If Bob is successful in being elected as the representative from Colorado's 3rd Congressional District - he will become my representative and I will give him the respect and honor due him as a result of his office. The other side of this equation is that Bob would need to commit to representing all of us in the third District not just those that voted for him. If we lose sight of either side this key political social contract and commit to honor it - it does not really matter who gets elected - it will be worse.

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seeuski 4 years, 8 months ago

@scottford, You will not vote for him but you would expect him to conform to your views? Rest assured Bob will vote his conscience and that is what will benefit you in the long run. I do find a gleam of comfort in your post as I am freakin out by the current powers and the chance that you could possibly be considering something new in November. I pray.

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Brita Horn 4 years, 8 months ago

Tipton is a wash. He cannot beat Salazar...he lost by over 60% the last time. Been there, done that..got the Salazar shirt....sadly for Colorado. Let's move on to the guy that will make the changes we are looking for... You go Bob and get to work!

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freerider 4 years, 8 months ago

hey seeuski ....got any naked pictures of Sarah Palin ???

wanna buy some ???

you could relieve some of your angst with them

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bandmama 4 years, 8 months ago

Hmmm...known Bob as as client for a while. Was open to his ideals and convictions till this article. Palin???? Nope. There are reasons that she should NEVER be in a position of trust and leadership. Something about a dog with lipstick sticks in my mind. How demeaning to women in general to assume that we need to be so tough and wear LIPSTICK to get "our views" heard. Chapstick would have made me listen, Lipstick implies wanting to please a certain population. I'll take a "gal" in chapstick who has something intelligent to convey over someone who depends on "lipstick" any day. Ideals are one thing, Needing something like make up to get one's views heard shows a lack of what I might call legit convictions. Bob would be better off speaking for himself. And has up till today.

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Scott Ford 4 years, 8 months ago

Hi Seeuski - It is great to be chatting with you again.

I am under no allusion that Bob will conform to my point of view. Nor would I expect him to. However, if I need help with an issue involving a federal agency and Bob is our elected representative I need to feel confident that he will help. In addition, if I have a point of view I would like to share with Bob my expectation of him, as our representative is that he carefully listens. If on the off chance what I am proposing makes sense, that it is given careful consideration.

The point of my previous post was to highlight that for the representative political system to work well the terms of a social contract must be honored between our elected officials and us. A commitment from the elected representative to represent all the folks in their district. This is matched with a corresponding commitment from the people in the district to show them the respect/honor due their position. - regardless if they agree or disagree with them. From my perspective we have lost sight of this. If we abandon the terms of this social contract it does not matter who is elected governance likely becomes worse.

Political campaigns need to highlight differences - that is one of their key purposes, however, once the election is over we need to set aside the rhetoric and get to work. It seems that we have entered into an era where the campaign never ends and very little work is done.

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John Fielding 4 years, 8 months ago

.

I think the point Scott F is making can be found in the oath of office, wherein the incoming Representative of The People swears to Preserve Protect and defend The Constitution.

If that trust is faithfully executed it will assure that all of The People are represented, and that even a majority may not deprive a minority of Life, Liberty, or Property.

Our dilemma is that so many have found ways to do so anyway, often in the name of the Common Defense (Patriot Act) or the General Welfare (entitlement programs). It seems to be the primary objective of many in government, to acquire more power by circumventing the constraints designed to prevent exactly that well known danger.

Nearly every amendment to the Constitution has been designer to further limit the powers of government and protect the rights of The People. One notable exception was Prohibition, that great experiment in progressive social engineering. The disastrous consequences demonstrate the folly of one group imposing its will on another, even by lawful means and with the best of intentions.

I do believe Bob's heart is in the right place, and his actions will be tempered by reason and practicality. This may come as a disappointment to some of his supporters who expect the dramatic stance of the primary campaign to continue.

But if there are enough like minded new representatives, we can hope that even as they become more moderate they will still accomplish the goal of beginning to redirect government toward its intended role.

.

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mmjPatient22 4 years, 8 months ago

John-

Good points. It's funny how, in spite of the painfully obvious lessons learned from attempting to control morality(prohibition), some people still insist that prohibition is the path-almighty for cannabis. What plans does Bob have for limiting the imposition of the will of others on the people that belong to the same group(cannabis users) that I do?

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seeuski 4 years, 8 months ago

Scott, I fully agree with your last post and that is why there is no other candidate in the 3rd race except for Bob who fills that void you so eloquently describe. Bob has held townhall meetings on several occasions and takes questions from anyone and everyone until there are none left. He posts his cell phone number and has promised to continue to be available to all of his constituents once he is elected. The leaders we now have like Salazar have done the opposite, John avoided the public during the healthcare debates and he did telephone-town-halls where he controlled the questions and could blather on and eat up time with his answers. I was on one of those calls and the questions were scripted or friendly, and I never was afforded the opportunity to ask one question. That will never happen with Bob McConnell, never!

For the person who wears no lipstick to claim that only after Sarah Palin's endorsement that they won't vote for Bob, there are 3 others who will in your place. Pretty sure that it was always a no vote for Bob since party affiliation and ideology were always at odds. And I guarantee that NO ONE thinks or speaks for Bob, Bob needs NO talking points and is the ultimate leader. He lived it.

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bandmama 4 years, 8 months ago

It is not about the lipstick, Bob is perfectly able to stand on his own. Political suicide is what will happen if the forum has Palins backing. Bob is smart enough to know that although the name Palin may generate some public interest, he has the...ummm. B@lls to call a spade a spade. His following at this point in time has potential. He needs to continue to do it on his own, not following anothers footsteps. He is perfectly able to speak for himself and I, yes I said "I", dont want to listen to Palin crud when Bob is a much better candidate who will stand up and defend his platform and views. Baby steps for change. We dont need a failed vice presidential candidate to make up for lack of thought process. I and many others would have voted McCain had it not been for her stupidity and narrow-mindedness.

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seeuski 4 years, 8 months ago

And there you have it folks, another Democrat saying they would have voted for McCain except for Palin. Every polling company had data that showed that Palin gave McCain a huge bump and that McCain would have lost by a larger margin had it not been for Palin. So the Liberals and Atheists hate her, who cares! When Palin gives her endorsement those candidates see their numbers rise. How is it that in recent polling done by a Democrat pollster does Palin hold a 46% to 46% tie against Obama? It must be the lipstick on the pig joke that everyone laughed at I guess. Gee, the American public are so dumb maybe. Can't please everyone, especially people who voted for Obama for that "hope and change" thing. What did that mean exactly? The teleprompter Kid and the Marxist Czars are taking us to the cleaners. And how about Pelosi's promise of "draining the swamp" of corruption? Seems that Maxine Waters and Charlie Rangel didn't get that memo.

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JLM 4 years, 8 months ago

That old dopey Sarah Palin --- she's beautiful, rich, interesting, smart as hell and batting 6 out of 7 on candidates she's supporting. Heck, she got a Sikh woman from 4th in the SC Governor's Republican primary to the top.

Yeah, Sarah Palin is sure a dope.

Hope and change.

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Matthew Stoddard 4 years, 8 months ago

bandmama's a Democrat? Hmmm. Never would have thought, personally. Then again, if it's not "seeuski" it's not Conservative.

Every polling company also shows that most who liked McCain already, had Palin kill their votes for him, like bandmama. It also seems that Alaska is losing it's charm toward her. As of one of those socialistic Rasmussen polls from May 2010 showed only 41% of Alaskans would vote for her in 2012. She must have burned some bridges to nowhere along the way from 2008.

A more recent liberal Rasmussen poll from 20JUL10 shows Obama 46% to Palin 42%. It's a good thing someone is watching your old info since it withers away quite quickly. This same page shows that Romney & Obama tie at 45%. It also shows that should Romney pick up the GOP nod and Palin runs independent for a 3 way race- Obama 44%, Romney 33%, Palin 16%. Dang Liberal Rasmussen poll. They probably intimidated people with their question, knowing full well that some people are just easily frightened by a phone call.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/elections/election_2012/2012_match_ups_obama_romney_tied_at_45_obama_48_palin_42

Reagan also appointed a Czar and he also used a Teleprompter. In fact, here are two shots of him using one, along with his very first:

http://www.mikedroste.com/teleprompter2.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_zZHT_alTccg/Scp_COCQwwI/AAAAAAAACJQ/iSG437fLN24/s400/reagan2.jpg

Here's an image of Reagan's first use of a Teleprompter:

http://i332.photobucket.com/albums/m335/dmhlt48/Teleprompter%20-%20Reagan/RonaldReagan_Teleprompter_00.jpg

GW Bush was the first to put in a number of Czars that added up to more than the past presidents combined all the way back to Truman. Obama has since topped that. Both Pres' Czars were appointed usually due to BS obstructionist party line talks. One party would hold it up so the positions couldn't be filled in a timely manner.

Palin just might be to "untelligent" to do anything more than write on her hand.

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Matthew Stoddard 4 years, 8 months ago

JLM- 6 out of 7? No- out of the endorsements she's made and have already had their primaries 10 have won and 4 have lost (Senate, House, Govs combined). That's a 62.5% win rate, which is good. 19 races still haven't been decided. (6 out of 7 is 85.7%- 23.2% difference. In US population equivalence, that's around 60-65million people.)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/politics/palin_tracker/?hpid=topnews

As for SC, we'll have to see how Haley does against Sheehan. The last Rasmussen poll was from 3wk of June and showed Haley up 12pts. 2wks prior in June, she was up 21pts. I don't show anything more recent that I can find.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2010/governor/sc/south_carolina_governor_haley_vs_sheheen-1574.html

What is it with extremists and numerics and never being able to use them properly? These are people who think they can bring down our National Debt? Anyone who has that much trouble with numbers can no-way/no-how bring down the debt.

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seeuski 4 years, 8 months ago

Q8 If the candidates for President next time were Sarah Palin and Barack Obama, who would you vote for? Sarah Palin ..................................................... 46% Barack Obama................................................ 46% Not Sure.......................................................... 9%

http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/pdf/PPP_Release_National_715.pdf

Funny how Liberals use Rasmussen when it suits them. I wonder if there is a photo of Reagan using a teleprompter for a speech to 6th graders? Even Bush didn't need one when he spoke to the Children.

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2010/01/obama-uses-teleprompter-to-speak-to-6th-grade-class.html

Punked again.

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John Fielding 4 years, 8 months ago

.

Palin is simply genuine, at least if she has not gotten too much schooling from handlers lately. That is at the heart of her appeal. I agree with much of her sentiment, (certainly not all), but would not have been comfortable with her as VP. I still preferred the McCain ticket in the last election but not as much as if he had picked Romney or Ron Paul.

I had hopes for Obama, was willing to support him once he got elected even though some of his comments and associations made me very uneasy. Trouble is I can't just believe what people say, I have to hear it myself. Too many lies about what his real positions are both from the right and left.

But he missed his chance to bring change to congress, they pretty much pushed him aside if he was trying to steer them toward nonpartisan cooperation. He won't get another chance unless God forbid there is another 9-11.

There is a candidate out there, Mitt Romney, who I believe has a truly sound and reasonable plan to get our Nation on track, and has the type of experience that might enable him to pull it off. Trouble is many people fear he is an irrational fundamentalist because of being a Mormon.

But if you actually read or hear what he has to say you will realize Bob could work with him as easily as many who still believe government has to keep a heavy hand, at least for a while as we get used to doing for ourselves again.

Mitts positions on requiring work for welfare, ending penalties for welfare moms to marry, having the dads pay for the child support, are just one example of practical solutions that will appeal to most moderates. His recognition that we do have deadly, implacable adversaries in the world may be key to avoiding horrific attacks on our Nation in the future.

Visit www.freestrongamerica.com Or better yet, read the book "No Apology, the case for American Greatness".

.

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Matthew Stoddard 4 years, 8 months ago

That's because Bush was at the same reading level, so he felt comfortable.

Your data is from 9JUL-12JUL. Mine is from 20JUL. You always cling to old data because it suits you and you much rather have something agree with you than be kept up to date. You've quoted (or so you thought on that one thread, even though you had provided a Reuters link) Rasmussen so why don't you accept it now? Because it doesn't suit your need to obsess over Obama? Sounds like somebody's in looOOoove! He's a married man, you know?

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seeuski 4 years, 8 months ago

People here can see the kookiness of the sausage. This same sausage tactic was used back when the first polls were quoted regarding AZ SB1070. The sausage then waited for a poll that had slightly different numbers and pow, the Alinsky game began. Wake up sausage man, you are acting like a child. Bottom line is, whatever polling you choose Palin is a player much to the dismay of you and the rest of the Obamamaniacs.

John, I too liked Mitt Romney and thought he was a better candidate than John McCain, But for me now, I like the History, track record, and the political agenda that Sarah Palin stands for. So the 2012 Palin/Romney ticket would be a winner. I just love the hypocrites who say that Palin has no experience but they are Obama supporters, what a laugh! We don't even know who he is or where he is truly from. Why people would feel comfy with an unknown carrying the football is a mystery to me. But maybe the bowing makes em feel better. 10 days to Bob's victory.

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aichempty 4 years, 8 months ago

If Sarah Palin wants to help the Republican Party, she should shut up until November and then go vote a straight party ticket at her local polling place.

Palin and Obama are equally qualified for the job of President. Neither one of them deserved a shot at the job.

Obama managed to suck in a bunch of voters who probably also go to vampire movies and play video games. When reality is too hard to face, fantasy provides an outlet. That's what happened in 2008.

It's not about being President. It's about a Congress with an 11% approval rating. Throw them all out and start over, because it can't be any worse. When the man in charge of our tax system, Rep. Charlie Rangel, doesn't pay his taxes, that pretty much says it all. He's not the exception; he's the rule. He's just like Duke Cunningham -- they both got caught, which is the only thing that distinguishes them from most of their colleagues.

Chelsea Clinton's new mother-in-law and father-in-law both served in Congress. Her father-in-law served time for fraud. That's nothing against her, but it shows you how common public corruption really is.

The only redeeming feature of our form of government is that, sometimes, crooks get caught and punished. In the rest of the world, that doesn't happen. Sad, isn't it?

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Matthew Stoddard 4 years, 8 months ago

I see. Extremists, such as yourself, prefer older information that isn't updated. Isn't that how Iraq turned out? I'm sure you'd then agree that the majority of the US favors slavery. You might be able to find a poll online from about 200 years ago to support you on that. This had nothing to do with Obama, even- just that you had to have another Obamaseizure and found old numbers to suit your need because that's the type of person you are.

Thing is, you posted that poll link yesterday. I posted mine 5hrs later. Both polls were available to you had you searched, and we know that you do indeed try to search and use Rasmussen (when you don't misread "Reuters"). There was no waiting involved. You decided in this case, that Rasmussen isn't the poll for you. You now blame me for correcting your old information because it's my fault you're an idiot. I can deal with that. Just keep lying & I'll point it out over and over. At least if I'm quoting an older poll, I say so and say that I haven't found anything newer.

It's the same with JLM. Pulled a number from the southern orifice just to sound cooler than possible, with nothing to support it. Opinion, hiding in fact's clothing. This is the real reason our country is where it is: people like you on both sides giving the most misinformation as possible in order to baffle with bull$h**. You just suck at it, which is a good thing for the rest of us.

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seeuski 4 years, 8 months ago

"PPP surveyed 667 American voters from July 9-12. The survey’s margin of error is +/- 3.8%. Other factors, such as refusal to be interviewed and weighting, may introduce additional error that is more difficult to quantify."

The sausage is calling someone a liar when all polls have a margin of error and all polls contact different people at different times and in differing numbers. What a tool! By his standards Obama should be in jail for all of his lies.

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Matthew Stoddard 4 years, 8 months ago

And all you did was confirm your link was an older poll. You're either a liar for picking old polls you can agree with and defending them against newer information or you are just that unintelligent. It's one or the other. Most likely both, in your case.

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seeuski 4 years, 8 months ago

Now back to reality.

While one cranky local wants to use a 3 point swing in differing polls to Alinsky Palin and her supporters here is the world according to the Dems and there own voice box. http://abcnews.go.com/WN/democrats-congressional-distance/story?id=11301899

Smoke that one on your way to November 2nd. The prospects are real good for the Dems to maintain control of both houses. Now that is a big fat lie. I called myself out on that one sausage.

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seeuski 4 years, 8 months ago

oops, I should have said "their", I guess I'm just not as perfect as the sausage.

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trump_suit 4 years, 8 months ago

48 total comments with 17 by seeuski...... Almost 36% of the total commentary.

Spewing out your opinion at these rates on every forum and comment board does not make it accurate or correct. You post more than the next 10 people combined.

Kielbasa, or (mr. Sausage) as you have referred to him called you out on another obvious misrepresentation and you not only ignore the criticism, but contnue to spew more misguided invective. YVB continues to hammer the Birther conspiracy that has already been proven false by far more qualified investigators that work for many different organizations. Hmmmm, does anyone else smell something wrong with this? These tactics do not win elections and further divide us on the important issues.

It is my personal belief that your continued extremism will produce fewer results at the polls than you believe. Those of us that consider ourselves moderates do not want to hear the extreme positions of either the Right or the Left and would prefer to find a condidates that will listen, compromise and support the views of their constituents. Is Mr. McConnell that candidate? That is the question to be answered here, not your continued diatribe about all things real and imagined.

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seeuski 4 years, 8 months ago

trump, I certainly hope you don't intend to form opinions on who to vote for based on tit for tat spats in forums like these. Your response to the material I put out, including an ABC News report, is the same as the person you reference in response to some other posts, reactionary. Since things are not looking good for the Dems, all of their own volition, there seems no other argument choices than to shoot the messenger. Using different polls from different days that show a 2 or 3 point difference which would be considered inside the margin of error is nothing more than Alinsky style tactics. I view this forum as a means for fun and interesting sharing of ideas and I am not happy about the name calling, but I have been called some very derogatory things by the person you reference and at this point have zero respect for that person. At least you and I are able to maintain decorum at some level. We are divided on the issues because we are ideologically opposed politically. As far as you being moderate, yes, I see you as a moderate Liberal and I see myself as a former moderate Democrat, not Liberal, who watched everything shift to the left after 9/11. So now I am referred to as a right winger, OK, I love my Country and I respect the Constitution and Bill of Rights as written and not as a living document to be manipulated by either party. Have a good day.

P.S. Chalk up another percentage point to me.

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bandmama 4 years, 8 months ago

Why Dem or Repub? Why not let the candidate with the best ability to serve the office he/she is running for get your vote? Bob was close to having mine till the the Palin "incident". If Zappa were still alive, or if we could get Kermit the frog to run.... I am not Dem or Rep, nor will I ever be. I expect the person running for the office I am voting for to earn my vote, and not, under any circumstances "run on a ticket". Grassroots, baby.

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bandmama 4 years, 8 months ago

Oh yes, Aich, we may have shared a differneces in opinion in many conversations, but I have to agree with 99% of what you posted. My one percent differnce is that I really suck at video games, and I prefer to read. But still wont tell ya who I voted for, NANANANAA.

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Matthew Stoddard 4 years, 7 months ago

I guess everything after the Bill of Rights should be expunged from the Constitution since it's not supposed to change. Good job, seeuski- you just went one further than my post suggested you would do in order to bring back slavery. I guess seeuski is a racist, after all. That's for admitting it.

And anyone as purposefully misleading with their information as seeuski saying they have no respect for me...I'm happy to shout that from the top of my lungs! At least I don't outright lie to try to get people to listen to me and I also don't espouse slavery as you did by saying the Constitution is not a living document. 14th Amendment, baby. Waaaaay after the Constitution stopped "living."

Makes any candidate you support automatically suspect, in my opinion.

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mmjPatient22 4 years, 7 months ago

That's it! I'm writting Zappa in on the next ticket. Even if it is Moon-Unit or Dweezle, we'd still be a whole hell of a lot better off than being ruled by most of the current clowns that are incumbent or running anew.

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bandmama 4 years, 7 months ago

From the grave, Frank might be a better choice.

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jk 4 years, 7 months ago

Joe Walsh is still alive we could revive his canidacy!

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mmjPatient22 4 years, 7 months ago

Oh, believe me, I'd much rather Frank get his @$$ up out of his grave and run things for a while. And what a world that would be. Could you even imagine having someone THAT brutally honest in the White House?

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John Fielding 4 years, 7 months ago

.

President Andrew Jackson; July 10, 1832 ... Each public officer, who takes an oath to support the Constitution, swears that he will support it as he understands it, and not as it is understood by others.

One thing is certain: Jackson had no qualms about overstepping the law, even the Constitution, when he believed that the very survival of the nation required it.

Jackson's Farewell Address http://xroads.virginia.edu/~cap/jacks...

The Federal Constitution was then regarded by him as an experiment, and he so speaks of it in his address; but an experiment upon the success of which the best hopes of his country depended, and we all know that he was prepared to lay down his life, if necessary, to secure to it a full and a fair trial.

.

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seeuski 4 years, 7 months ago

Amendments to the Constitution are a part of the Constitution and are derived by following the proper procedural avenues as the Framers wisely set up. One should have a brain before posting on this site as it shows the shrinkage of the sausage to weenie. "The framers of the Constitution were aware that changes would be necessary if the Constitution was to endure as the nation grew. However, they were also conscious that such change should not be easy, lest it permit ill-conceived and hastily passed amendments. On the other hand, they also wanted to ensure that a rigid requirement of unanimity would not block action desired by the vast majority of the population. Their solution was a two-step process for proposing and ratifying new amendments." Amendments are a legal part of the Constitution when the proper procedures are followed. So, it is not a living breathing Document, it is a guide for all 3 arms of Government to live by based on what the vast majority of Americans expect from the law.

Usurping power by the WH as they are now attempting by bypassing Congress with secret Amnesty, and legislating from the bench is what I am mostly speaking of and the Amendments that gave rights to the freed slaves and abolished slavery are a part of the Constitutional process as new laws were expected to proceed. But go ahead and use the liar, liar pants on fire and the race bating crap of those that have no argument. It means little anymore as it is the clarion call of the left daily.

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trump_suit 4 years, 7 months ago

I understand now see, kinda of like when the Bush administration bypassed ALL of the legal structure (FISA courts) that had been legally setup for the executive branch to ask for warrants to conduct wire tapping and surveilance avctivities.

Why is it that the Right accepts one form of constitutional abuse but so abhors the next? Seems hypocritical at best.

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George Krawzoff 4 years, 7 months ago

Ha ha, that's the perfect storm of conspiracy theory and bike hate.

I wonder where Dan Maes stands on repealing the 14th Amendment? I can't wait to hear the alternatives, other than outright repeal and re-instituting slavery.

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Scott Wedel 4 years, 7 months ago

housepoor, You didn't know that riding a bike is part of an United Nations plot for world domination? And it isn't just Denver, Steamboat applying for Bike Town USA is doing the same thing and we might as well disband our city council and take our marching orders directly from the UN general assembly.

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Matthew Stoddard 4 years, 7 months ago

Seeuski- LOL! Thank you again for confirming that the Constitution is definitely a living, changing document with your own post once again. I quote seeuski's post:

""The framers of the Constitution were aware that changes would be necessary if the Constitution was to endure as the nation grew. However, they were also conscious that such change should not be easy, lest it permit ill-conceived and hastily passed amendments." You can read the whole thing in seeuski's context a few posts above.

Now seeuski- tell me where in the Constitution does immigration get addressed? (This should be good!)

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Scott Wedel 4 years, 7 months ago

As for this 14th amendment debate - they can keep the rest of the amendment and change that one phrase so that children born in the USA are not automatically citizens.

Have to admire how a debate can be framed about "anchor babies" as if the big issue is pregnant women coming her to give birth in the USA and then be returned home with a baby that has USA citizenship. How about talking about the far more common situation of a legal US resident with a nonresident spouse and they have a baby on US soil? Sure current rules allow for the spouse to become a citizen, but the illegal spouse has to leave the US and apply and wait for years to be allowed to legally live here with their family. So, in reality, families get along with their lives even if a spouse is here illegally.

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mmjPatient22 4 years, 7 months ago

Scott- OR...the even more common situation...two illegals come to America and make a US-born baby that gives them more of an excuse....ya know, to keep their little US-born citizen in his/her country of birth. After all, is it even legal to deport an American citizen because of the immigration status of their parents?

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mmjPatient22 4 years, 7 months ago

And then what? De facto dual citizenship for whatever generation(s) of "anchor babies" that happen to be lucky enough to have law-disregarding, boarder jumping, illegally immgrated parents?

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Scott Wedel 4 years, 7 months ago

MMJ, Where is your data source to say "the even more common situation"? It has been my personal observation that the mixed legal and illegal is pretty common. One person here legally with a decent job brings over their spouse and they have kids here. They know they can basically get away with it because the family is going to stay here even if one of the parents is deported.

I have no idea if that is more common that both illegal. I haven't seen the data breakdown on which is more common. I know which one is the preferred story of those that want to demagogue the issue.

US citizen kids cannot be forcibly deported, but INS is willing to deport both parents if both are illegal so arrangements have to be made to have others take care of the kids. I think it is more common for the kids to leave with their parents.

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John Fielding 4 years, 7 months ago

.

Suppose we require citizenship to be earned, by all.

You must serve in the military or acceptable civil service, 2 year minimum

You must register to vote, then vote every election .

You must pay taxes, property, income , sales.

Failure to do so will result in ????

.

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Scott Wedel 4 years, 7 months ago

Just goes to show how smart those marxist parents of Barack were to put his birth announcement in two Honolulu newspapers. As the son of an American citizen he was a US citizen, but they knew he would become President so they had to, at birth, start the conspiracy to make it appear he was born in Honolulu.

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trump_suit 4 years, 7 months ago

Thats OK YVB, we will just count you as one of the 27% of Americans that do not have a clue what they are talking about.

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2010/08/04/cnn-poll-quarter-doubt-president-was-born-in-u-s/?fbid=vOcH1gdUv0R&hpt=Sbin

This issue has been investigated extensively and laid to rest. Get over it and accept that your President is Barack Obama until at least 2012. It remains just another scary story told by the Right to scare Grandma and feed the fears of the racially biased.

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Angie Robinson 4 years, 7 months ago

I love what Bob McConnell had to say!

I wish a lot of people could look past the party offiliations, and actually LISTEN to what he has to say. If elected, the first committee he will try to get on is the "Rules" commitee, which oversees how much pork can go on a bill. Now, who doesn't agree that the pork added to bills is staggering and out of control?

He wants to place term limits on all representatives. All you liberal thinkers, if the GOP gets back in control, I know you'll be pushing for term limits. So can't everyone agree on that?

He has a lot of great points, and he's not a life long corrupt politian. I think he'll make good decisions for the people of Colorado - all the people, not just the conservatives. All you people spewing hate, gossip, unfounded statements, why don't you go talk to him yourself...discuss the issues and then decide if he's an old Grampa that doesn't know anything.

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Matthew Stoddard 4 years, 7 months ago

yvb just takes the old Liberal tact for himself- "It's not about the proof; the accusation is what's important."

It's also a classic child's ploy to get attention: "Hey! Look at me!! I have Obama's Kenyan birth certificate and you can't see it! Nyah-Nyah!!"

And so that pot calls this kettle black about being childish.

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housepoor 4 years, 7 months ago

lilwelder, you love what he has to say? What did he say? uuuuhhhhhmmmmm, i'm cutting everything by 10% wether we need it or not by golly.......ohhhh but not defense, farm subsidies or tax breaks to energy companies

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Matthew Stoddard 4 years, 7 months ago

We weren't talking about the Hawaii certs; we were talking about these supposed Kenyan certs you have. You still can't address that. Go figure is right.

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Scott Wedel 4 years, 7 months ago

YVB, The birth announcements were nearly identical because back then the dept of records sent the birth info for the papers to print. It was not the parents that submitted the announcements. The conspiracy now also includes the theory is that no one else saved the newspaper that day and that every microfiche of the newspapers that day have since been forged. These announcements are not considered "proof" of his US birth. They are considered examples of how far into the realm of insanity the birthers have ventured with their conspiracy theories.

The proof that is good enough for the State Dept to issue a passport is the copy provided by the State of Hawaii and their subsequent certification that their records show he was born in Honolulu.

To the question of where are the experts that have proven he was not born in Kenya: they are at the same place that have proven he wasn't born in Kansas, New York City, the moon or the surface of the sun. The experts accept that he was born in Honolulu. If you don't accept any of the organizations that accept the he was born in Honolulu as being experts then there is nothing that will satisfy you.

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seeuski 4 years, 7 months ago

Maybe there are some investigations that trump-suit missed.

"An investigative report detailing the Obama eligibility controversy" http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/22495

"The absence of the “constitutionality clause” remains of significant concern to this investigator and is an area that requires further exploration." http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/22628

"The Northeast Intelligence Network and Canada Free Press are in possession of extremely sensitive investigative documents, including a stunning written admission by a nationally known talk show host stating that he was threatened with his career – or worse - should he talk about the issue of Barack Hussein Obama’s birth records to a national audience." http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/13373

http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/21895

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seeuski 4 years, 7 months ago

In order to eliminate conspiracy theories it would be great if Obama stopped paying his lawyers to block the release of his long form BC and just quelled the drama. It is our right to know who our President is and from where he came and it is the law.

http://patdollard.com/2008/10/breaking-anti-obama-author-reveals-birth-certificate-findings-says-obama-is-son-of-frank-marshall-davis/

By this account Obama would have been born in HI and and perfectly qualified to hold the office of POTUS. I would hope that be the case, but we will never know the truth because of the resistance of Obama to reveal his long form BC.

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George Krawzoff 4 years, 7 months ago

Did somebody say "nut job?" I thought I heard "nut job."

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mmjPatient22 4 years, 7 months ago

George- Is that in reference to "see," or Obama?

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Matthew Stoddard 4 years, 7 months ago

mmj- Yes. LOL!

George- A nut job, at least, can't ever complain about not having a job.

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Scott Wedel 4 years, 7 months ago

I could suggest that only a nut job would suggest that a website that has a clock counting down the days of the Obama presidency (and assumes he won't win reelection) is a reasonable source of information.

Since the conspiracy theory already includes the Hawaiian dept of records by accusing them of fabricating the birth certificate requested by Obama and then falsely confirming that it is his valid birth certificate then exactly how would them providing a long form birth certificate make any difference? Why wouldn't the birthers claim it is just yet another fabricated document?

Considering the conspiracy also includes replacing all of the microfiche records of both newspapers to create a false birth notice and the conspiracy also includes everyone that was in Hawaii in 1961 whom failed to keep a copy of those newspapers of that date, isn't it about time to admit this brilliant wide ranging conspiracy has succeeded and deal with that?

Seems to me that if you believe this conspiracy then you have to accept that Obama has the greatest personal special operations squad ever. So if you believe this birther conspiracy then shouldn't you be worried about disappearing without a trace for your posts on this topic? Or at the very least, that they will continue to make you birthers look like fools for complaining about an issue in which all the evidence is against you?

Note how much better Obama's special ops team covered the tracks of his birth than the Russians covered the tracks of their sleeper agents recently uncovered. No real challenge to show they had assumed false identities. So Obama's personal special ops team has to be acknowledged as far superior to Russia's successor to the KGB.

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trump_suit 4 years, 7 months ago

Come on See, all you can come up with is Canada Free Press and Pat Pollard. Who are these guys??? Talk about digging up obscure sources to try and prove your point.

All I know is if you took the Birth Certificate that was published to any State Drivers license office, you would walk out with a license. Good enough for me.....

While we are at it, did you ever find that annual ACORN budget? Must have been a huge sum for them to go belly up huh????? Not enough to influence anyone in politics let alone influence the entire process. Tempest in a Teapot.

Your two favorite conspiracies both shot to (&^&^%()*. Time to put your right wing heads together and come up with some new scary stories for the 2010 election.

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Matthew Stoddard 4 years, 7 months ago

George- If you wear the tinfoil shiny side outward on your head, it allows for telepathic/telekinetic people to still type without hands. I'm doing it now! (Remember- shiny side outward-ard-ard-ard)

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knee_dropper 4 years, 7 months ago

Got some good lolz at the comments above; are these some future scandals that the birthers might discover?

http://www.salon.com/entertainment/comics/this_modern_world/2010/08/03/this_modern_world

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Scott Wedel 4 years, 7 months ago

(cont) Note that Obama's special ops team did not have to create false birth notices. The fabricated birth certificate falsely certified by the Hawaii records people would have passed any legal test. So how audacious was it for them to also modify the two newspapers birth notices? Not only did they have to replace all microfiche copies of the newspapers, but they also had to be sure no hoarder had that paper among their stuff.

And note the audacity of the young Barack Obama, while at college knowing that he is not a US citizen, he doesn't take the simple step of applying for US citizenship for which he'd automatically qualify, but instead knows that he will become President and so waits for the conspiracy to develop for another twenty years that comes to fruition in 2007 when Hawaii creates a false birth certificate and falsely validates it.

There is no way to compete with that vast of a conspiracy planned across so many with such audacious confident and executed so perfectly.

The brilliance of this conspiracy is that not only did it allow Obama to become President, but it marginalizes his opponents. First they look like fools for having doubts despite so much evidence supporting that he was born in Honolulu. Second, to a great many people, it raises the question of exactly why it is that the first minority elected President is not only questioned as being a traitor ("palling around with terrorists"), but is questioned as not even being a US citizen. Those are not typical criticisms of a President, but are constantly being made of Obama. And so the sort of moderate Republicans that would have a better chance at attracting independents are being marginalized within the Republican Party.

Obama's special ops team is apparently just that good. Too bad he has not used them against Congress to pass more of the stuff he wants.

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seeuski 4 years, 7 months ago

1.What hospital was your dear leader born in? 2.Who was the attending physician that delivered your dear leader and why didn't he sign the COLB? 3.Why is Obama spending millions to keep his long form BC hidden?

As far as the newspaper classifieds being used as proof, I am sure Dan Rather is satisfied. How is it then that only Obama's birth notice in 2 different papers is the only one in the history of HI that has the same order of births from one paper to the other? As I said before, just release the long form BC and end this one way or the other, we have the right under the law to know. But of course we "birthers" are nuts for wanting to know that our elected POTUS is Constitutionally illegible to serve in that office. It seemed alright to all the lefty's that McCain had a Congressional hearing forced on him where he had to prove his illegibility to serve. Hypocrites? You decide. I wonder how this conversation would go if there were an (R) next to Obama's name and he were a Conservative POTUS? I used to argue on Clinton's behalf when I was a sucker in the 90's so I know what it feels like to be under the spell. Oh yea, that right wing conspiracy was what caused him to succumb to Lewinski and it wasn't really sex and besides, a little white lie ain't so bad. I know the spell well, thankfully Obamamania is wearing off on many.

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trump_suit 4 years, 7 months ago

Seeuski has no answers because Glen Beck has not aired yet today. Wait for his reprisals until after his hero give him his talking points for the day.

Get over it see, Either take the pills your Dr. prescribes, or get you one of those nifty beanies from Jeff's post above. It is time for you to face reality. Get YVB to take some of those pills also. You all probably beleive that America planned and executed 9/11, and faked the moon landings, and lets not forget that most of the Birthers were out buying ammunition right after the election becuase Obama was going to outlaw guns. (remember the ammo shortages last year). We should put all of you conspiracy theorists in one place so you can be kept from harming yourselves. Maybe we should put MMJ in charge to keep you all calm and sedated.

Look up the legal definition of "Natural Born Citizen" and you will soon find that if your Mother is an American Citizen, so are you no matter where in this world you chose to make your appearance. Oh wait, you want to change the Constitution to fix that. While you are at is, google up the obama kenya birth certificate and tell us how many people have proved that it is faked.

Just how large was that Acorn budget to pull all of this off? Get us a dollar amount yet????

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Matthew Stoddard 4 years, 7 months ago

seeuski- Smarter people than you and yvb (which could technically mean anyone over the age of 4yrs old) have decided that Obama's papers were good enough to get him on a national ballot for Pres. You, ultimately, mean nothing in the whole matter so there is no need for Obama to cater to your needs. Plus, if you're so worried about it, you'd convice yvb to produce those Kenyan docs for everyone to see. I don't see that happening, though. It's all about the accusation to you instead of proof. Tell ya what- if Obama's driving around Arizona, maybe they can make him show ze papers.

As for McCain, he and everyone readily admits that he was born in Panama to US citizen parents. Any hearing was to determine the meaning of "natural born" since Panama is not a US territory. There is still no evidence to contradict that Obama was born in Hawaii except under the tinfoil, where nobody can see.

Thing is, you both talk so much diarrhea from the mouth and defend the most idiotic statements you and others of your ilk make, it's hard to believe that someone is truly this disturbed and not playing for attention. You both should really be committed to an asylum. McConnell could be blood-related to me and I still wouldn't vote for him all due to mentally-disturbed people like you endorsing him. It sucks that I now have a hard time voting for people in my party because the extremists have taken over.

So produce the proof or STFU, Donny, as I like to say now.

Now- back to where that immigration thing is addressed in the Constitution. Any luck with that? I mean, you care about the Constitution, right? You should be able to narrow down the Article, Section, Paragraph and sentence right down to the letter on this.

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Scott Wedel 4 years, 7 months ago

I've heard that Obama is actually the love child of JFK and Corretta Scott King. So they gave the baby to the Obamas with the promise that they'd make him president one day. Let me create a website and make it into an article so that it can be accepted as fact by the birthers.

And see how Obama's special ops team has done such a good job? Not only did the special ops team go back in time and change the newspaper's birth announcements and remove all records of the originals so there is no hard evidence of a conspiracy, they also did it in a way that is slightly imperfect so that the conspiracy buffs can claim to have found something and so continues the conspiracy theories that divides the Republican party.

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Scott Wedel 4 years, 7 months ago

And Seesuki, it is truly exceptional to think that it would be a bigger issue if it was a Republican than Obama. Have you already forgotten the 2000 election that a great many people including independents can say that more voters in Florida intended to vote for Gore than Bush and yet Bush won the election? That besides the counting issues, the butterfly ballots caused confusion because minor candidates directly opposite a major candidate got far higher percentage of voters than in the rest of the state. And just about any statistical analysis shows that it is most likely that cost Gore more votes than what Bush won. And yet the Democrats did not spend the next years claiming Bush was not the elected presidents and we did not have Democratic members of Congress express doubts that Bush was the President or have members of the military refuse to serve a "false" president and so on. For virtually add Democrats the question of legitimacy ended once Bush took the oath of office.

And yet for the birthers including several Republican members of Congress, the issue did not end when Obama took office. No, it has continued and in some ways intensified now with a military trial of a person that has refused to serve.

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Scott Wedel 4 years, 7 months ago

oops proofreading error: For virtually ALL (not "add") Democrats the question of legitimacy ended once Bush took the oath of office.

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John Fielding 4 years, 7 months ago

.

I also get weary eyeballs reading some of the stuff the anti Obama people write, (not that I am a fan of many of his policies).

But what really gets to me is comments like:

"We should put all of you conspiracy theorists in one place so you can be kept from harming yourselves. Maybe we should put MMJ in charge to keep you all calm and sedated".

and

"Thing is, you both talk so much diarrhea from the mouth and defend the most idiotic statements you and others of your ilk make, it's hard to believe that someone is truly this disturbed and not playing for attention. You both should really be committed to an asylum".

Who is this "we" that should be doing the lockdown of dissonant voices?

There is plenty of evidence that powerful people are trying to pull off all kinds of capers and promulgating distortions to albeit them. Richard Nixon, Bill Clinton, Ken Lay, Bernie Madoff, the list is endless and covers the spectrum.

If you can't stand it, don't read it. I have little to fear from them, but much to fear from those who would silence them (for their own good).

People will believe what fills their own need. Just look how many drank the Kool Aid.

.

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Scott Wedel 4 years, 7 months ago

John, I agree with you that there is absolutely no basis for anyone to make any attempt to silence any of these birthers. Absolutely no harm in their ridiculous theories. Personally, I think this conspiracy is quite funny because it just goes to show how someone convinced in a conspiracy can continue to absorb all new facts as further evidence of the conspiracy.

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John Fielding 4 years, 7 months ago

.

Even if you thought there was potential harm in their theories, if they are not selling state secrets to avowed enemies or advocating violent crime against innocent civilians there is no reason to attempt to silence them.

It it those advocating repression of free speech who should be silenced, but only by themselves after the disapprobation of the community has given them the motivation to do so.

.

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seeuski 4 years, 7 months ago

I first want to commend John for being fair and true to the freedom of speech that we all should cherish, especially when much of the left wingers are calling for the fairness doctrine or net neutrality in order to silence opposing voices. Next, The answers are exactly what I expected from the left wing forum members, especially the sausage. No answers to reasonable questions, just personal attacks at such a pace that proper spelling and English became extinct in the typing frenzy.

Scott, Are you living under the sand? The left went nuts after Bush was elected, I know, I voted for Gore and wanted the recount. There were two conducted as I recall and while I agree on your premise that one can reasonably say that the people of Palm Beach county would not have voted for Pat Buchanan I saw no other way, as many did, to fix the problem other than the recounts. It was that event that brought about the George Soros funded Moveon nut balls that lived for nothing else then to attack George Bush. They now spend their time going after Palin and Beck etc. etc. so you won't find any sympathy with that one from me. Some of you folks need to read the Constitution and see what constitutes a Natural born Citizen and the lawful right to serve as POTUS or Vice POTUS. And news to Trump-suit, I have argued on this forum for well over a year against the Chemtrail person, thank g-d they have gone silent, and the nutty conspiracy theory about 9/11 but I will tell you who is a 9/11 truther, Van Jones. Sound familiar? No, I don't need any pills, just answers to the above questions and mainly: WHY WON'T OBAMA PRODUCE HIS LONG FROM BC? What is he hiding? One last thing about McCain, he was born on a military base of two American Citizens, his Father was on active duty and stationed in Panama. Learn the law. Obama's Mother did not qualify under the law because of age and time away from US territory unless Obama was born in HI. What Hospital delivered him? What Doctor? If Obama were to open his birth records and prove it we could put this ugly chapter to rest, it ain't fun, even for us "anti Obama" people. 27% of Americans want to know, and I suspect more than that truthfully. Goodnight friends.

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seeuski 4 years, 7 months ago

And sausage, you are not voting for McConnell because of your ideology not mine. You are NOT a Conservative as you have claimed in the past and you constantly are at odds with both Conservatives and Libertarians on these blogs and very comfortable with the Liberal points of view so please, be true to yourself.

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John Fielding 4 years, 7 months ago

.

The way to be effective in dealing with those who haunt the fringes of political ideologies is to maintain equanimity, let them have their say, respond with respect, asking for followup as new information comes to light, and keep an open mind, some of it will have a basis in truth and be useful to the reasonable man.

This course will rarely alter the thinking of actions of those individuals, but it may have a significant influence on those who could be moved by the debate.

.

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Scott Wedel 4 years, 7 months ago

Yes, the Democrats were unhappy after the election, there was the high drama of the Supreme Court decision, counting shards and so on.

What I do not recall is after Bush took the oath of office was any member of the armed forces refusing to serve on the theory that Bush was not the legitimate President. I do not recall any members of Congress claiming that Bush was not the legitimate President not worthy of the respect of the office of President.

Why should Obama produce his long form birth certificate? You have already said that the short form produced by Hawaii is a forgery despite Hawaii dept of records certifying that it is valid and accurate. So there is absolutely no reason to believe you all would believe the long form was valid so why should he give the loonies already convinced that there is some great conspiracy yet another document to declare fake? And why give these people that are totally committed to attacking him any slightest hint of family personal information in which to fashion more reprehensible personal attacks?

Plus, it is great politically to keep the right wingnuts foaming at the mouth over the issue so that independents and potentially conservative minorities feel that they just cannot cast their lot with lunatic birthers. Remember how the Republican overreach during the impeachment trial of Clinton was the restart of his presidency?

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John Fielding 4 years, 7 months ago

.

Great Scott, I think you've got it. He does not want the controversy to go away!

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seeuski 4 years, 7 months ago

Awesome Scott, The problem started in 2008 when Obama and factcheck posted the COLB on each of their sites. Unfortunately the two documents were not identical to each other and subsequently the Obama website version was taken down. Why is Obama spending millions to protect the public from his long form document? If, as you say, "there is absolutely no reason to believe you all would believe the long form was valid" what would it matter? We are the fringe remember? The controversy over Bush was not caused by his doing but by faulty butterfly ballots in one district in FL. Why would military personnel react in a similar fashion as some do who feel Obama is hiding his birthright from the public and may be usurping his power? To be honest this whole issue is surreal and disheartening and I for one wish it would be dealt with and set straight once and for all. We will stop the Socialist agenda at the ballot box regardless of what some committed Dem voters here claim. "it is great politically to keep the right wingnuts foaming at the mouth over the issue so that independents and potentially conservative minorities feel that they just cannot cast their lot with lunatic birthers. Remember how the Republican overreach during the impeachment trial of Clinton was the restart of his presidency?"

Overreach? So lying under oath is acceptable to you? Great Scott!

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trump_suit 4 years, 7 months ago

John, in my attempt to quantify just how far out there the Birther conspiracy is, I used some inappropriate language. You hit the nail squarely on the head and I withdraw and apologize for my comment about "locking them up".

You are absolutely correct, the voices of opposition should never be silenced regardless of where they come from or what their point of view is.

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John Fielding 4 years, 7 months ago

.

Mr. Suit,

Thank you for that statement, not for my satisfaction but to reinforce your standing as a reasonable man. I suspected you were just being dramatic, not seriously suggesting suppression of dissidents, but it is appropriate that clarification comes from you.

It is an attribute of great character to acknowledge ones mistakes and misstatements.

Any other great characters out there?

.

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Scott Wedel 4 years, 7 months ago

So once again, if his short form birth certificate is verified by the Hawaii dept of records as being valid and accurate, but is considered a forgery by the birthers, then how could any other document released by the Hawaii dept of records not also be considered a forgery by the birthers?

The part that is surreal is that when someone doing opposition research for Hillary's primary campaign went looking for birth notices in the hope of finding something and found the birth notices then the birthers conceive of a way in which that is also a forgery. That just goes to show that the birthers are not concerned with facts or verified information. That the birthers have decided that Obama is not their President and all that additional information does is just convince them that the conspiracy is that much bigger.

Clinton lying under oath is not acceptable. I am sure we are all shocked that politicians might lie. But it was in a deposition for a civil case and the court system can deal with that by basically rejecting all of his testimony and making it that much easier for the other side to win the case. It is a massive overreach to start impeachment hearings over a minor crime in a personal matter. It was simple partisan politics to proceed with the impeachment. All information regarding the scandal was public before the House started their proceedings.

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housepoor 4 years, 7 months ago

and of course all this birthers bs has nothing to do with race..........

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Scott Wedel 4 years, 7 months ago

Chew on this? Seriously, that is "food for thought"? That borders on lunacy making me concerned about your mental health. But you appear to be stable even if arguably delusional which is not that bad of a place to be.

Let us see what happens in the Colorado primaries Tuesday and then the general election. I think we in 2010 may be a model for the entire country in 2012. We have moderates being challenged by the wings in the primaries and it will be interesting who wins the primaries and then how it plays out in the general election.

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seeuski 4 years, 7 months ago

housepoor, It has to do with the Constitution, something you should try and read, unless of course you are referring to a political race. I suggest that when all you have is the racist tag you should just keep your head in the sand.

'Since 1961, the Obama family has always maintained that Barack Obama Jr. was born in Hawaii. However, as WND has reported, the family has changed its story about his hospital of birth, first claiming it was Honolulu's Queens Medical Center then changing it to Kapi'olani Medical Center. What has yet to be produced is a long-form certificate of birth that lists the hospital where Obama was born and the doctor that attended the birth. In June, WND reported Tim Adams, a senior elections clerk for the city and county of Honolulu in 2008, made the claim that Barack Obama Jr. was definitely not born in Hawaii and that a long-form, hospital-generated birth certificate for Obama does not exist in the Aloha State. WND has reported that the birth address reported in the Honolulu newspapers in 1961 announcing the birth of Barack Obama Jr. was the address where his grandparents lived, suggesting the grandparents may simply have applied at the Hawaii Department of Health for a short-form Certificate of Live Birth.' http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=188769

If the POTUS would just produce the official document that proves once and for all his birth in Hawaii we can all go home.

"Myth-busting website, news articles say president not born in location he claims" http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=103306

The POTUS himself has claimed he was born in two different hospitals.

"As WND has reported, the Hawaii Department of Health will not authenticate that the department issued the short-form Certificate of Live Birth, or COLB, released by the Obama campaign, listing Barack Obama Sr. as the father." http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=107337

Sorry but over 27% of Americans just want to know that we have a Constitutionally fit to serve POTUS.

Anybody feel that Obama has tightened his WH spending belt in these tough times? Seems a wifey trip to Spain is a bit over the top along with all the rest of the dalliances. I remember when the media went nuts about Bush spending time at west wing II in HIS ranch at Crawford Texas. Hypocrites? You decide.

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housepoor 4 years, 7 months ago

Liberals and democrats have been pushing the same agenda for years but this time it different? What’s different? Why are so many white males over the age of 50 so angry now? Maybe it's just coincidence that it’s happening now when a man with different colored skin than their own became president? It just seems this outrage is much different and comes from a darker place than them just opposing policy, it seems personal.

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trump_suit 4 years, 7 months ago

More right wing websites from seeuski. Lets try a couple from a slightly different point of view.

1 The online birth certificate that has been release is in fact an accurate document.

http://urbanlegends.about.com/od/barackobama/a/obama_birth_certificate.htm

2. District and Supreme courts have rejected lawsuits on this matter stating:that there is no factual basis for the lawsuit among other legal issues. Bottom line is that the Courts have rejected the Birther claims.

http://urbanlegends.about.com/gi/o.htm?zi=1/XJ&zTi=1&sdn=urbanlegends&cdn=newsissues&tm=36&gps=357_2078_1003_470&f=00&su=p284.9.336.ip_p504.3.336.ip_&tt=2&bt=0&bts=1&zu=http%3A//www.ca3.uscourts.gov/opinarch/084340p.pdf

Left wing publications? Maybe, but when the courts reject your argument it is time to take another approach.

YVB, what say you about the illegal wiretapping of the last administration? Issues like the iran/contra affair, watergate, Dear Ms. Monica and subsequent foibles (ie lying under oath) Lets not forget about JFK and the whole Marilyn episode or the assasination. Finally, if what Pres. Obama has accomplished is truly communism/socialism as you claim then you have been living in a communist country since the advent of the new deal, Social Security/Medicare and Medicade.

Lots of questions in that paragraph for you YVB. What say you? Me thinks that lily white people do not aspire to the office of President. None of them seem to be innocent do they? It seems to me that each an every one of them could have been impeached if subjected to your criteria.

Whatever made you write down your thoughts on the amount of black vs white blood cannot be explained. You expose yourself as a racist who will stop at nothing to discredit a black man. This is simply unacceptable

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seeuski 4 years, 7 months ago

YVB was paraphrasing, but besides that, white/black does not matter in this debate and it is the only tactic that the left have because they have no proof of birth and can't answer the questions posed intelligently. "Election official: I'd testify Obama not born in Hawaii Clerk willing to swear in court about no hospital birth record" http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=165981

Don't forget to compare the COLB proffered by Obama with an actual long form BC of an Hawaiian born resident just a couple of days after Obama's acclaimed birthday.

Here is an important C-SPAN segment. http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/294893-1

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seeuski 4 years, 7 months ago

News to housepoor: Just as proportionately as people of color count in our society, so too do they count in the Tea Party movement. Keep up the race baiting, it hasn't worked for the WH but maybe you didn't get the memo. Maybe you can explain why Obama referred to blacks as "mongrels".

"Democrats have re-enslaved America," said Kevin Jackson, president of the Black Conservative Coalition. He said tea party activists, if successful, would reduce the size of government and set in motion another Emancipation Proclamation, the document that President Lincoln signed that effectively ended slavery. "This time, even the white folks get freed," said Mr. Jackson, who accused Mr. Obama of viewing fellow blacks as "mongrels." http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/aug/4/blacks-stand-up-for-tea-party/

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seeuski 4 years, 7 months ago

While I find it hard to do I have to give kudos to the NYT for a well written piece.

"WHILE Congress toiled on the financial overhaul last spring, precious little was said about Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the mortgage finance companies that collapsed spectacularly two years ago." http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/08/business/08gret.html?_r=2&src=busln

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Scott Wedel 4 years, 7 months ago

Maybe you can explain why Obama referred to blacks as "mongrels".

Umm, maybe because he did not. The article you cite has a person whom says he thinks that is what Obama thinks. It presented zero evidence that Obama had ever used the word "mongrels". That you so badly misread that sort of sentence.suggests you have difficulty processing information without distorting it into an anti Obama rant.

And how about answering the question I've asked before: Since you say the birth certificate released by Obama and verified by the issuing dept in Hawaii as valid, is instead a forgery then why would you accept a long form released and verified by the same State of Hawaii dept? They have already said he was born in Hawaii so they are not going to release a long form saying he was born anywhere else. So, would you accept a long form showing a Hawaiian birth as valid or yet another forgery by the state of Hawaii?

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seeuski 4 years, 7 months ago

You are asking me to accept something that has not happened and that is not the argument that your dear leader's spokespeople are making, they claim that we have seen the only BC. The problem you are up against with me is that in the summer of 2008 I saw both the factcheck website version and the Obama website version of the COLB while Obama still had it up on the site and the factcheck site showed a frontal view, they now have a sideways view, and I saw the discrepancies for myself. And are you claiming here that Obama did not use that "mongrel" terminology while on the show The View?

Enjoy your day.

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seeuski 4 years, 7 months ago

At 9.04 of this video you will have the quote. If any white POTUS ever referred to people this way holy cow. But what do I know, some people just act stupidly.

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Scott Wedel 4 years, 7 months ago

What about the facts that have occurred which is the State of Hawaii saying that the birth certificate released by the Obama campaign is valid and accurate? And yes, there is no other document that is any more valid at demonstrating that he was born in the US. The long form may have additional personal details, but it is not any more valid at showing he is a natural born US citizen.

You seem to think you are winning this debate because no one can convince you that you are wrong. I think this exchange is showing anyone else reading this that the birthers need a ridiculously massive conspiracy spanning decades to have done what you claim.

That the birthers are not based upon facts, but upon an unshakable belief that Obama cannot be the valid POTUS and thus have created a set of conspiracy theories to refute any facts that he is, in fact, the legitimate POTUS.

Did the fact that he produced a birth certificate change the birthers mind that he was born here? Of course not. Just created conspiracy theories on how it was a forgery.

Did the fact that Hawaii dept of records verified that his birth certificate was issued by them and was valid? Of course not. Just created conspiracy theories that the dept forged the original and falsely verified it.

Did the fact of birth notices in Honolulu newspapers change any birther's minds? Of course not. That just created new conspiracy theories of how those birth notices were fake. It is even a conspiracy that no Hawaiian hoarder has kept the original printed newspapers for nearly 50 years.

But now you say that all you need is the original long form. But when that shows birth in Hawaii then that will have to be a forgery. And obviously next would be personal medical records of his mother and so on so forth. You even linked to a site that thinks Obama needs to submit to DNA testing to determine his parents. You simply hate Obama, refuse to accept that he is the POTUS and want to do anything to personally embarrass him.

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Scott Wedel 4 years, 7 months ago

Hmm, is there a difference between referring to yourself as sort of a mongrel vs calling others that? He didn't call anyone else a mongrel, he used that to refer to himself. That you think that means he called blacks mongrels is interesting because he was referring to himself and maybe to Americans in general, but certainly not blacks in particular.

And nice bait and switch by suggesting that Obama called Tea Partiers mongrels and you cited an article which made no such claim. And now you defend your misleading citation and link by noting that Obama used that term to describe himself. Yeah, I know you live in a world of vast conspiracies where anything said in one context is just as valid when used in a completely different context.

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seeuski 4 years, 7 months ago

You are seriously going off the deep end Scott, you're imagination is getting the better of you and you are contorting my postings to suit your needs. I could claim that you again fell into my trap, but I didn't intend to set the trap. Obama to date has produced NO birth certificate, he has proffered a copy, two copies, of a certificate of live birth that does not indicate where he was born or who delivered him. He has not, as you are trying to claim here, produced a birth certificate, it is a certificate that says a baby was born somewhere of two people and that Hawaii is acknowledging that, that is all that document does my friend. Further, I made no reference to, nor did I intend to claim Obama was referring to Tea Partiers as "mongrels", that is your desire to maybe sully some people along the way for what this POTUS said on a dopey TV program. Incredible and silly of you, but go ahead anyway.

P.S. I will wager that we will never see his true BC, I don't know why. I guess the not knowing is a conspiracy, who is our POTUS?

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seeuski 4 years, 7 months ago

A quote from Barack Obama: "And the interesting thing about the African American experience in this Country is that we are sort of a mongrel people, I mean were all kind of mixed up......ahhhhhh, that's actually true about white America too we just know more about it".

I don't know about you but to me this person is a racist for this comment and it shows his distinguishing of there being two Americas, one white and one black. So much for the unifier that we were promised upon his election. Race relations have not been this intense in this Country since the sixties and early seventies, and there is a reason for it. It is politically expedient for the election cycle and the continuance of the Marxist agenda which requires a big win in November. Anyone who watches the full video, all 5 parts, will see the many hypocritical statements made by Obama, including his claim that he has been governing over the last 18 months not campaigning. This mongrel segment is another.

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trump_suit 4 years, 7 months ago

Really neat obfuscation there YVB but you completely failed to answer any of the questions that were presented to you. What say you about the activities of our last half dozen Presidents?

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seeuski 4 years, 7 months ago

Saul Alinsky won't work here trump. We have seen the handbook on creating distractions and deflections.

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Matthew Stoddard 4 years, 7 months ago

So, explain Saul Alinsky to us. You keep bringing this person up and the only thing I can find on Wiki is that he is compared to Thomas Paine as one of the greatest American leaders and a hero to the NONsocialist Left. (Never heard of the guy, personally.)

As for the rest of your statement, neither you nor yvb has presented any proof to an Obama Kenyan birth. You've avoided that answer with one distraction after another.

You've also have forgotten where to point out the Constitution addresses illegal immigration.

You have a knack for calling people out for not answering something you want answered but never return the favor.

You've also forgotten to formally admit the the Constitution is a living, changing document since you typed in your own post that it is indeed a living, changing document...just that it's not easy to change. Nobody ever disputed that it wasn't easy. You just seem to cling to the notion it can't be changed period.

I also addressed the part about McCain in your earlier post. You said I "didn't answer" anything. I pretty much address most stuff in your posts with my retorts. It's just unfortunate that you never read, as has been proven over and over. Due to the fact that you don't actually read, you just cry "Alinsky!!" like it actually means something to anyone. You then go on with more diatribe that is all opinion and no fact.

Why is it okay for you to never address the things you get called on but expect everyone to cater to your demands? Is it an attention thing? Just address those couple of things and I'll do the same. Then, you'll forget those things for a day or so & come back with more dredgings from the sewer-net and scream about those. This will continue to go in a circle because you then forget that you were already called for something you said and then moved on, hoping we'd forget. Is that Alinsky enough for you because it sounds like you play that game every post.

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George Krawzoff 4 years, 7 months ago

Matt, You might want to go out and find a stump to argue with. The stump will listen, is more likely to have an original idea, and won't respond with "I'm not a racist but ....."

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Scott Wedel 4 years, 7 months ago

Matt, The point is that there is no evidence that can convince people like YVB or Seesuki. For them all evidence showing that Obama was born in Hawaii is a forgery and everyone that confirms his birth certificate is part of a vast conspiracy and the lack of a publicly released Kenyan birth certificate is yet another vast conspiracy.

But every once in a while we get a nice clear statement like this one from YVB: "He was born in Kenya, period.". That clearly admits that this is one of his core beliefs and no facts to the contrary will be acknowledged.

Sort of funny the level of obfuscation needed to keep these conspiracy theories afloat. Such as Hawaii can give a certificate of live birth for someone born outside the USA as if that applies to Obama even though his doc says he was born in Hawaii. And for overseas births the document lists the foreign place of birth. So birthers take the overseas aspect, strip it of all context and then try to create the lie that the released birth document does not show he was born in Hawaii.

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Matthew Stoddard 4 years, 7 months ago

George- And the more a person like that gets exposed as not knowing what they talk about and their candidates don't win, I'm doing what I set to do. Anyone with followers like that doesn't get my vote purely for the fact that they attract loons. Plus, I already voted for Tipton 2 weeks ago on the mail-in. Hopefully, I won't be forced to vote Salazar in the main election, but there are worse mistakes than that. At least, I'm pretty sure Salazar has a birth certificate.

"Who put the stump in their rump-sha-bump-ba-dump..."

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seeuski 4 years, 7 months ago

I do get a good laugh at you guys. Thanks.

Who is Saul Alinsky? I never met the man I am just saying these things from the air, they just seem to come to me.(sarcasm) I won't waste any time on something that is so obvious to most. And a Playboy article is a pretty lousy source for the info on that radical "Marxist".

As far as where Obama was born, I have said I don't know, we have the right as Citizens to see any and all POTUS's long form BC's as evidence the way it imposed, rightfully so, on McCain by the same fools who now say birthers are crazy.

As far as the Constitution, I said correctly, that it is NOT a living document and stand by that. There in the document is written the proper way to make changes to the law and not by legislating from the bench, as has been done quite frequently by radical judges. As far as fact vs opinion, I back up my claims by posting links to sources, it is not my fault you label those sources as right wing or "sewer-net" etc. Sorry I only used the NYT once but the in the tank left wing sources are useless in most cases in obtaining the truth about what is being done to this country as they ignore reality when it creates problems for the left's agenda.

Lunchtime.

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Scott Wedel 4 years, 7 months ago

"we have the right as Citizens to see any and all POTUS's long form BC's as evidence"

Where in the world is that "right" in the Constitution? If the Constitution is not a living document then since that is not explicitly stated then it does not exist. No reason to believe Founding Fathers would have expected more documentation than is required to get a US passport and no reason to expect that documentation had to be made public. So even if a living doc then extremely unlikely even any activist judge would find that "right".

I looked up Saul Alinsky on Wiki and geez, a nonsocialist that organized workers during the depression, fought segregation and thought Nixon was wrong. Died in 72. Have no idea why he is on the right wingnut list. He'd probably be proud and amazed to be mentioned in 2010.

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seeuski 4 years, 7 months ago

There is too much info on Alinsky to post all of it, I am not even sure I am not being played by you as most know who and what this man was.

http://www.crossroad.to/Quotes/communism/alinsky.htm

Enjoy some videos. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyAgQJ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHfVP5... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjH4QB...

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seeuski 4 years, 7 months ago

We have the right to see incontrovertible evidence as to ones Constitutional ability to serve as either POTUS or Vice POTUS, is that better? The birth cert just happens to be the easiest and best way. Why hide it?

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Matthew Stoddard 4 years, 7 months ago

1) So Saul Alinsky is relevent in your mind. No problem. I only know a little more about him from Wiki. I'm surprised you seem to know more about all these commies & pinkos than the people you accuse them of being like. More surprising is that you seem to know more about them than you do the people you tend to admire. Pretty funny, actually.

2) I honestly can't remember anyone truly making a big deal about McCain being born in Panama. It's not the first time he's run for Pres. In fact, in 2008, McCain's campaign brought the inquiry themselves...it wasn't brought by a Liberal. In fact, in 2000, I think it might have been Bush who made it a sticking point. McCain never won the nomination so why would Dems care at that point? Again- there was never any dispute that McCain was born to US citizen parents in a hospital in Panama- outside of any US held base or territory. The question was based on the term "natural born citizen" and what constitutes "natural born" since the Constitution never fully defines the term.

YVB and your argument is that Obama was born in Kenya, even though there is no proof to say that. Your argument is soley on the opinion that the birth certificates we've seen published are not real. You demand to see his physical birth certificate. Name one other Pres who has shown their BC to anyone just because they demanded. Just one, please. There is no Constitutional right that allows you to demand this of the President. The officials in place make that determination. If they are satisfied, so am I. Until the Supreme Court fully

3) You say that the Constitution is not a living document but has a process that can be used to change it. No kidding. That means it is still changeable, even if not at the drop of a hat. It truly doesn't matter what the process is: there IS a process to change it. Therefore, it is a living, changing document. Nobody made any mention of the process entailed. You just decided to say without qualification that it can't be changed. That's a misrepresentation of the truth.

4) For the links you purport to back up your claims...half the time they don't do that at all. I pick apart your links and quote the actual statement from said link & it doesn't even say what you tell everyone it says most of the time. There are times when it actually said the opposite, but you never read the link far enough to figure that out. So, it's not even me labeling your source of information- it's you being labeled for not even reading your linked source. That happens more often than not.

5) As for ignoring reality, as I keep saying, I haven't really had a problem getting by no matter who is President. I can adapt. It's part of what they teach in the military. I'm sorry if being able to evolve and adapt to situations doesn't work for you.

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Matthew Stoddard 4 years, 7 months ago

whoops- 2) 2nd paragraph

YVB and your argument is that Obama was born in Kenya, even though there is no proof to say that. Your argument is soley on the opinion that the birth certificates we've seen published are not real. You demand to see his physical birth certificate. Name one other Pres who has shown their BC to anyone just because they demanded. Just one, please. There is no Constitutional right that allows you to demand this of the President. The officials in place make that determination. If they are satisfied, so am I. Until the Supreme Court fully defines it, we'll never be truly sure.

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Scott Wedel 4 years, 7 months ago

YVB, Nice to know that we can depend upon worldnetdaily to take facts from mainstream sources and then distort that into misleading proclamations if not outright lies.

Yeah, if you take the portion of the people that said Obama was probably born in the USA and say those people don't believe Obama was born in the USA then you get worldnetdaily's interpretation of the CNN poll.

Doesn't that sort of laughable blatant distortion bother you in the slightest? Or is your hatred of Obama so absolute that anything anti-Obama must be true regardless of how far it strays from the facts?

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Scott Wedel 4 years, 7 months ago

Good try Bob, but Scott Tipton won tonight.

And the Republican nominee for Senate is notable for calling birthers "dumb a**es"

Should make for a fun general election campaign.

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seeuski 4 years, 7 months ago

Here we go again, truth to lies. If anyone can find a post of mine where I say Obama was born in Kenya I will donate, get this, $50 to the Salazar campaign. That should make the sausage happy. The same sausage said that I called members on this forum Nazis, the bet was made, and nothing. You won't silence ideas and facts with lies. Just look how the sausage misrepresents and twists my words, he doesn't even paraphrase anymore. Get a life sausage. As far as the 3rd Congressional district vote I am very disappointed to say the least, if we get stuck with another term of Pelosi lapdog voting we as a free people are all going to suffer down the line. It is just a matter of time before more of you realize the reality of what the Obama agenda really means for the future of this Country. As I speak the FED is now monetizing our national debt, something that Bernanke said would never happen. That is why we needed a Bob McConnell in Congress, to shine the light on this USA killing corruption.

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Scott Wedel 4 years, 7 months ago

"We have the right to see incontrovertible evidence as to ones Constitutional ability to serve as either POTUS or Vice POTUS, is that better?"

Well, according to the Constitution, no you don't. It is not stated that it is the individual citizen's right to inspect the President's birth certificate. In all of the court decisions on this including at least 3 writs to the Supreme Court, every judge including conservatives such as Justice Thomas has said that the person filing the case looking to see the documentation does not have the right to see it.

And legally, the certificate of birth released by the Obama campaign and verified by the State of Hawaii as valid would be accepted by the State Dept for a passport and by every other government jurisdiction as proof of being born in Hawaii. If you want to create legal doubt about the validity of that documentation then you'll need a Hawaiian DA to open an investigation into the dept of records and show fraud. Crazy conspiracy theories posted at worldnetdaily does not mean squat legally.

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seeuski 4 years, 7 months ago

@Scott Who then is responsible for the validity of all the VP and P candidates as the Constitution requires? Anyone? And I agree, we may never put this conspiracy to rest, it is crazy and I wish it to be proven untrue. Believe me when I say it, I don't want a Foreign National running our Country, for a host of reasons. One being, they might show extreme favoritism towards our enemies and against our National interests. Hmmm, why are we financing Imam Rauf in his Middle East journey for the Ground Zero Mosque funding? Why did we give Hamas a couple of billion $dollars right after Jan 20th 2009? Why are members of Obama's inner circle involved with the Gaza flotilla? Why is the NASA chief propping up Islam as some great provider of scientific achievement? Why are we sending 10's of $billions of taxpayer dollars to support the Odinga Muslim regime in Kenya where they just forcefully changed their Constitution from a Democracy to a Marxist form of Gov't? Why is this Admin adding billions upon billions to the National Debt for spread the wealth programs when everyone knows it is a failing principle? This guy makes Jimmy Carter look like Ronald Reagan. I hope you're right Scott, I hope this Birther thing turns out to be a load of crap, then maybe I would have some confidence that we may doing these things for the good of the USA. I just don't see it.

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Scott Wedel 4 years, 7 months ago

Who has a right to verify presidential candidates are natural born US citizens? Presumably the Secretary of State for each state can ask each candidate for that. A losing Presidential candidate can go to court. Maybe an electoral college voter (haven't seen anything one way or another). Though, they would seem to merely have the right to see Obama's certificate of birth that was verified by Hawaii. They'd probably need to be able to PROVE that Hawaii forged and falsely verified his certificate of birth in order to gain access to the original birth certificate and hospital records. So it is probably not going to happen via the courts. You all need to convince some Hawaiian DA that the dept of records forged a certificate of birth and falsely verified it so then the DA starts an investigation. But that is going to require more than "questions", but actual evidence.

The only way I see the release of more birth info happening is if the 2012 Republican Presidential candidate is a birther and so Obama asks to have the records released to ruin that candidate's credibility. You say prove this conspiracy to be untrue, but everyone knows that you can never prove these sort of conspiracies to be untrue because all that additional evidence does for those that believe is show that the conspiracy is just that much bigger and powerful.

Why is the NASA chief propping up Islam as some great provider of scientific achievement? Uh, how about because that is true. Not that the stupid terrorists have brains, but Greek geometry was lost to the West and was rediscovered by those of the Renaissance in Islamic libraries and they had also made some serious progress in the field of number theory, in particular solving equations with whole numbers (integers). Islam to this day honors geometry and mathematics and despite falling behind because they didn't develop modern calculus which is the power tool shop of mathematics, Islamic countries still provided more than their share of top notch mathematicians.

"Why is this Admin adding billions upon billions to the National Debt for spread the wealth programs when everyone knows it is a failing principle?" Well, that is why we have elections of which Obama won and McCain lost. I rather doubt that "everyone knows it is a failing principle". It is possible that many Obama supporters think government stimulus is needed to get the economy going again and to provide minimal support for the unemployed and so on.

For your other charges, I don't see Israeli newspaper making those sort of flotilla and other charges. You appear to be using worldnetdaily as a source of your misinformation. We already know how ridiculously biased they were when they completely distorted that cnn poll so I'd need better sources than that to give credence to any of your other charges.

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Scott Wedel 4 years, 7 months ago

BTW, it is not a "Ground Zero" mosque. It is a couple blocks away and there are several other mosques just as close and one even closer to ground zero than this one. Jon Stewart had a rather funny bit last night on mosques in NYC.

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Matthew Stoddard 4 years, 7 months ago

Thank you, Scott. I can just delete the WordPad I was saving to post, except for the part about my twisting 'ski's words and McConnell not winning.

seeuski twists his own words perfectly fine on his own. I just quote and link and allow others to see the misinformed statements. Anyone who can "seriously" say that the Constitution is not a living, changing document and then say the next second that it IS changeable thru Amendment processes is the epitome of a misinformant.

McConnell might have won had he not decided to forego the Craig event, for which his wife stood in for him, and ditched his constituents-to-be in order to kiss Palin's...ring...so she could endorse him. I guess he should have been concentrating on the actual issues at hand, instead.

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seeuski 4 years, 7 months ago

Scott, Are you seriously saying that it is the mission of NASA to promote the achievements of Islam? Are you not aware of the POTUS's bowing and World apology tour to the Muslims and his speech in Egypt when he spoke of the difficulty of Zakah here in the US? And are you seriously unaware of the flotilla situation? And do you really see the light at the end of the tunnel with the increasing debt and spread the wealth policies? Did you complain of the debt during the Bush years and have had a coming to Jesus moment since? It seems to be the case with the Liberals these days. I really didn't get much out of your answer about who is responsible for certifying the POTUS's eligibility as I expected, it seems that we are just supposed to sit down and shut up about it, just trust someone did it. As far as the idea that he could wait till 2012 when a possible birther gets elected then Obama releases his long form to harm that POTUS. That fits in with the games of this childish Administration. Good one.

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seeuski 4 years, 7 months ago

Sausage, Bob is away on a fishing trip for a couple of weeks to unwind but I am sure when he gets back he would be more than happy for you to give him a call so that he could answer your charge personally. YVB is right, you are a child.

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Scott Wedel 4 years, 7 months ago

Seesuki, I didn't take the NASA chief's comments as "promoting" Islam, but merely recognizing that Islam has contributed to math and science. I see his comments being aimed towards young Islamic kids and telling them that you can be scientists and engineers. I sincerely doubt that any Christian or Jew saw those comments and thought about converting to Islam. But maybe a few Islamic students felt they had a better future following Islam's great tradition of learning and considered turning their back on the heresy of terrorism. I am all for that. If a few helpful words diminish hostility between the US and 1.4 billion people then I think that is good.

And once again, nice bait and switch regarding economic policies and debt. You start off saying "everyone knows it is a failing principle" and now want to know what I agree with. You've been called out for saying "everyone knows" when that is most clearly not the case. Your side lost the election and so ideas you dislike are now part of those in power. Get over it.

Personally, I hated the debt of the Bush years. Completely wrong during an economic expansion to be building up debt. Clinton had left office with the country running surpluses and that should have been allowed to continue until national debt was significantly reduced. I do not like the debt of the Obama presidency, but I also recognize that if nothing was done then we could have had an epic financial collapse. Internal JP Morgan documents admit they were toast without TARP and Goldman Sachs admit they were toast if JP Morgan collapsed. TARP could have been much better, but there was neither the time or political will of either party to do what I would have preferred. The idea of running a deficit when economy is going from minimal unemployment to 9% makes perfect sense.

The big test for Obama is whether he can get the deficit down in 2011 and 2012 and beyond. If the economy is still bad in 2012 then he will probably lose unless the Republicans sound like they would make things worse (recall that FDR won in 1936 despite the Depression not being over).

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bandmama 4 years, 7 months ago

Bob, sorry. Next time stand on your own two feet and convictions. Sarah helped you lose this one. You lost alot of votes because of her "backing". A real candidate runs on what he/she believes, not the just the party. You were doing so well. But next itme around....lets see/hear YOU, not a pretty dog with lipstick options.

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seeuski 4 years, 7 months ago

Scott, who passed TARP? Bush. I was sitting here typing away in response to your claims but then I realized that the majority of Americans are aware of the facts of what has happened in our economy and continually rehashing your spin with facts is worthless. Until you stop your slobbering love affair with Obama you will continue to believe what you say. Don't forget that I am old enough to remember what happened in politics and the economy just 10 years ago. I remember that Clinton was reigned in when the Repubs gained the House in 1994 and I remember the Tech crash of 2000 which led to the mini recession that Bush inherited. I also remember 9/11 and the economic downturn that it led to and the PROPER way in which Bush dealt with it. Juxtapose that with what this Marxist is doing and then answer to the continuing increase in the unemployed which we were promised would not go above 8% with all this spread the wealth crap. Maybe you have a point with my optimism about most Americans seeing the truth, but I hope you don't. Our future and the future for the children are at stake. Now I am going to see if Tiger can get it together, have a nice day.

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seeuski 4 years, 7 months ago

What a total heap. The only votes that Bob lost were votes he never had. Those of us that know Bob know that his values and political goals were very similar to what Palin espouses. We don't get our info from the Tina Fey version. The chance that the two that have made these claims of changing their votes because of Palin were ever going to vote for Bob is just not believable. Why hold more disdain for Palin than for Salazar? It makes NO sense. And the big win in this district shows that he was popular where he was known the best. Tipton is the career candidate not Bob and Tipton already lost to Salazar once in a landslide so those that voted for him expecting a different result....well we will see in November. Anything will be better than continuing the Pelosi lapdog voting parade.

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trump_suit 4 years, 7 months ago

You all need to remember ust how difficult it is to live in a Tea Party members world and be so scared of everything that is going on. From our Maxist/Socialist President to the national debt, everything is going to heck in a handbasket. If anyone remembers this far back, when I graduated high school in the 70's, we were not going to be able to find jobs and would never have it as good as our parents generation. Sound familiar? Much like the naysayers of today, they were wrong and my life has been "most excellent dude"

Wearing those little metal hats has not helped, and they are at a loss as to how they can fix their view of the world, or at least to force their view onto the rest of us. They lost the last election badly, and every decision seems to be going against them right now and even the census is a goverrment plot. No wonder they are so scared.

Our country is going thru some difficult times right now, and they will continue for the forseeable future. In every hard time before, neighbor helps neighbor, family comes together and we all find a way to get thru. Our counties greatest days still lie ahead and my children/grandchildren will still live in the greatest country in the world. Yes, Obama is still our President, the Democrats are still in charge, one day it will be the Republicans or the Tea Party and our country will still be a great place to live.

Personally I think we should hold a fundraiser for those individuals challenged by their fears so that they may begin to understand that America still loves them even though they have lost faith in America. Anyone want to help me put together the 1st annual Seeuski fundraiser? All funds to be donated to finding a cure.

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Matthew Stoddard 4 years, 7 months ago

Funny. I don't see any post from seeuski dogging Conservatives for voting in the TARP. I did a search and 3 posts came up; none from seeuski. One from Sep, one from NamVet and one from Trump. Why is it that we can never find what you say you've been saying?

And again, seeuski thinks that Palin was Bob's saving grace when you're hearing it from people here that Palin is a pox to a lot of people. I understand your infatuation with her since she tends to talk without knowledge almost as often as seeuski.

Again- Bob had some great tagline about shutting down this and eliminating that. You never heard how or what the repercussions would have been. Just an equivalent to "Shut it down!" That's the idea of a fool who hasn't thought it out very much. No wonder seeuski was enamored.

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seeuski 4 years, 7 months ago

You guys ought to get together and have a circle...... You are. Sausage, this is your problem, you live by snippets you find posted on this forum. You should really try and broaden your little mind and see what America is figuring out, that this great land is being fundamentally changed to Marxism admittedly by the current people in charge. They may not use that specific term but someone who touts their own genius as much as you do should be able to figure out what their programs resemble in the realm of idealism. You also should edumacate yourself on the man you have decided to belittle on this forum, Bob spent alot of time and much of his own money traveling this great State fielding questions and answering the very things you are saying he was mute on. That shows your ignorance which you are quite adept at. And now you are brave enough to call Bob a fool on this forum. I will let him know your feelings the next time I see him. I personally know Bob to be a great American with a personal story of Americana that goes all the way back to the days of our 1st President. I doubt many people can say they have personally held a biographical book on George Washington that was purchased by the great.....great.... grandfather of that person while the subject was still alive, I have. Bob was fighting for the preservation of the principles that this Country was built on, the same principles that has, and will continue to, fuel the Tea Party movement whether you and your circle.... friends like it or not.

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seeuski 4 years, 7 months ago

And sausage, You said: "Why is it that we can never find what you say you've been saying?" What the heck are you talking about turkey? I said what? Please explain what I was saying about TARP other than who it was passed under.

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Scott Wedel 4 years, 7 months ago

It is the old seesuk shuffle. Make some claim, get called on it and then try to change the argument. You said "everyone knows it is a failing principle" and now you are throwing out rationales to explain why everything good is because of the Republicans and everything bad is from the Democrats. But you still refuse to acknowledge that those that won the 2008 election, president, senate and house, do not accept that helping the unemployed and trying to stimulate the economy at this time is a "failed principle".

I guess it just goes to show that in Seesuki's world the only people that count are those that agree with him and the rest of us are irrelevant.

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seeuski 4 years, 7 months ago

I would answer you Scott but you have to make sense first. If you think that the policies of this Administration, as is similar to past tax and spend Administrations, has a different track record than failure please let us know how and where that is. If you lose your income do you go out and spend more money on stuff to fix your situation, or do you tighten your belt, lesson the expenditures and seek a new source of income first? Our Government is NOT spending money smartly, I am sorry to inform you that we out here know where our money has been and is going and it ain't for what you claim. Unions, politics and payoffs. Why else are we seeing a rising unemployment rate? Why else are the economists becoming more and more pessimistic? But keep up the "hope" for the "change" you voted for. Please let me know what claim it is I was called on. And please let me know where I said the Repubs are all good and vice versa. You and sausage keep putting words in my mouth and twisting my posts for your benefit. And anyone who fails to see the direction that this Administration is purposely sending this Country in IS irrelevant. It's up to you to pull your head out of the sand.

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Matthew Stoddard 4 years, 7 months ago

Okay, let's number them again so you can address each one back in order:

1) "Scott, who passed TARP? Bush. I was sitting here typing away in response to your claims but then I realized that the majority of Americans are aware of the facts of what has happened in our economy and continually rehashing your spin with facts is worthless."

Great. So when did you condemn this when it was still happening? When did you condemn spending from 2001 - 2008? I can't find anything in your posts. Please show us that you were against spending all this time. I can only find you talking about TARP & Stimulus that is attributed to Obama. Bush passed TARP and would have passed the Stimulus had it come to him during his term. Most economists agree that without the Stimulus Bill, unemployment would have probably hit up to 12%. While the Pres said it would hold us to 8%, that didn't happen. We didn't go up to a national average of 12%, though. Make no mistake- the Stimulus and TARP saved jobs, not created them. Otherwise, all those people would have been out of a job.

Please let us know more about what you were going to say about Bush passing TARP since we never actually can see you calling that bad before Obama was elected. Let's hear you really lay into Conservative Bush about this. Don't hold back. That was what you were going to do before you decided to use a lame excuse not to, right? (No- you were doing what The Party told you.) Even better, link to comment of yours from before Obama became Pres where you condemned Republican spending. That means before the TP movement where it became "cool" for talking about past spending. Just one linked comment of yours, that's all.

cont'd

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Matthew Stoddard 4 years, 7 months ago

cont'd

2) As for broadening my mind, I don't think that limiting myself to just following 1 side to a story as being broadminded. It's pretty much a given that I'm more well read than you. I just don't make a habit of habitually quoting things from purely Conservative websites or articles. I actually read differing opinions and put them both in context, when I'm not bringing the other side to one of your single-sided diatribes or correcting your math. Anyone who is as bad with numbers as you are has no business correcting anyone else's math. Lay off the booze- it might help you think better while typing.

3) You might be surprised to find out I've seen Bob speak and I've studied his website for the last few months. (Didn't know that one, did you? LOL!) He never (as most candidates never do) expressed a vision as to how to make the things he talked about happen. As any politician, he was great with personal stories, soundbites that people needed to hear, etc. And just like any candidate, he offered no meat with his potatoes.

a) Shut down the Dept. of Education? Great. Where does the money come from when all the work gets foisted upon the States? Think that money will be line item returned to people? No- it's general fund afterward to shore up other things. Even if they did refund that small portion, they would then have to completely stop collecting money for that now, non-existent department. That leaves everything the Fed Dept. of Ed. did to be passed solely onto the State. Where will the States now come up with money for additional mandated duties they'll need to perform? Who will be the one coordinating State to State on keeping curriculums for schools in sync with each other? What if a Blue State decided to add/subtract from their curriculum and it didn't match what a Red State wanted to teach? We just had this fight all within the borders of Texas this year (again.) Sounds like decreased Federal Tax vs increased State Tax. 6 of one, half dozen of the other. This is no solution.

All of this isn't even addressed on his webpage. It's just all about celebrating creativity. Dang! How Liberal does that sound??

cont'd

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Matthew Stoddard 4 years, 7 months ago

4) How about how Bob wants to put people back to work or taxes? From his website:

"Get the government off our backs." Very generic tagline. How? Easy to say, but there is nothing that says How he hopes to accomplish this. Just by wishing real hard? Taking a shotgun to them?

5) "Reduce taxes on businesses and individuals." Great. Let's forego paying down the National Debt that has been incurred by both Dems and Repubs. The Laffer Curve is no longer valid and outdated. During the 90's, we had higher taxes, spending was still in the mid-30% area vs. GDP just like in the 80's and 00's. The only thing different is that during the 90's, we had a surplus. That hasn't been accomplished since lowering taxes. Plus, should taxes be lowered any more, we are now paying the public with borrowed money from China, for the most part. So I, for one, can't understand why this might be what you construe a "failed principle" in your mind.

On Bob's tax "answer," he states he's for a Fair Tax. I can only assume that means Huckabee's Fair Tax proposal that used accounting tricks to say that only 23% would be collected. When you exempt the fuzzy math, it's around 30%. I doubt you'll even understand this given your propensity to falsify numbers, yourself.

http://www.factcheck.org/taxes/unspinning_the_fairtax.html

Bob is against a VAT, though...which is the exact same thing as the Fair Tax except it would be lower and on top of normal income taxes. Everything already has a VAT on it: should you decide to buy it...you pay tax for it. Should you not get it...you pay nothing. You don't smoke? You aren't paying higher taxes on cigs. You don't drink soda? You don't pay those taxes. Sounds pretty fair to me if you want to buy things that might just be bad for you and for our health system because you can't pay for the damage you've caused to yourself.

cont'd

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Matthew Stoddard 4 years, 7 months ago

cont'd

6) Finally, you start to address "personal" stories. That's a load of bull for anyone anonymous since you aren't willing to prove it. It's hard to prove those personal things when we don't know your identity. That's why I can prove things that I say when dealing with personal issues.

So now- let's get back to that avoidance thing.

1) Back on May 2nd, you spouted off about how the Fed should be upholding their Constitutional duty to protect our borders and keep us sovereign. From what, illegal immigrants? Will you finally tell us where the Constitution talks about immigration as it pertains to protecting our borders. We had just as many, if not more illegals here 5yrs ago when jobs were aplenty.

2) Let's talk about that birth certificate. You say Obama's are fake but "I never said he's from Kenya!!!!!!" Great. So he was just born in another state, right? It all works out. So tell us where you think he was born if not Hawaii and where is the proof to that effect? We still haven't seen that from you or yvb.

3) Let's talk about how you condone changing poll numbers (along with JLM, yvb, Duckels) to suit what you want to say instead of actually giving the proper information.

So any explanation? Of course not. Your only fall back is to call someone a child because you just don't know how to debate someone. You call me a child yet I'm not the one always pouting because the bully is mean to me. You are a fraud, a liar, and I'm pretty sure you are either consistently drunk when you post or really just that unintelligent. As I've said before- I think it's All of the Above, so I will continually correct your misinformation. As you can see, even the other conservatives are no longer playing into your line of thinking. You do them no justice because your irrational behavior puts them in a bad light because you support the same types of candidates. People like Sara Gleason or Sep or John Fielding...they all tend to make their posts coherent. I may not agree with them, but at least I get the impression that they are informed.

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John Fielding 4 years, 7 months ago

.

Trump, I applaud your comment about an optimistis vision of the future, difficult times come and go, etc. And that America continues to love those challanged by their fears.

But we do not need a cure, they are a part of what keeps on the path toward a free and strong future.

They exist at each end of the political spectrum, and they are committed to that which they believe is in the best interest of our Nation. Their resistance to government taking undue powers or the brutal exploitation of the proloteriate are vital to keeping the dialog alive from which our policies flow.

Seeuski, you are obviously a dedicated patriot, thank you for your efforts .

I want to say the same about most but my plane is leaving.

.

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Matthew Stoddard 4 years, 7 months ago

Wow! A "patriot" is someone who evidently outright lies and tries to deceive people with made up information. I guess we'll have to see if Webster can change that definition. I will go ahead and retract my statement about Fielding. I must have been wrong when I assumed John was an informed person. Just a poetic writer instead, I guess.

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seeuski 4 years, 7 months ago

Thanks John and have a safe flight.

We will not be discouraged by insanity and name calling as the truth and reality will prevail.

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trump_suit 4 years, 7 months ago

In that we agree see. Truth and reality will prevail.

Can you accept it when reality disagrees with your view of the world?

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Matthew Stoddard 4 years, 7 months ago

C'mon, Patriot- Answer the questions that kept getting asked over and over. Or is the Patriot a fraidy-cat, too? Can't answer when the puppeteer's arm is gone? You're a lying fraud.

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Scott Wedel 4 years, 7 months ago

Anyway, we had a number of exchanges regarding POTUS and birth certificates and people's lack of a constitutional right to see it. So by changing the subject does that mean that Seesuki's questions were answered or just that he ran out of arguments and so changed the subject?

I I doubt we will ever change Seesuki's beliefs on anything, but his arguments can be refuted so that innocent are not falsely led into his reality.

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Matthew Stoddard 4 years, 7 months ago

XBox 360, actually. I'll probably be on Borderlands tonight. If I'm lucky, I'll finish it this weekend. Had it for almost a year now. Send me an invite for some co-op, especially if you have the Gen. Moxxi add-on! LOL!

Scott- You're correct: we won't change anyone's beliefs. I have never seen anyone walk away from this forum having an epiphany of any sort. I just hate that people are willing to endorse lying to get their way and those unwilling to challenge someone when they purposely distort information. Even moreso when the people who hold those same political beliefs won't confront the person who makes them all look bad. It sucks, but that's life. That's what all the people say.

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John Fielding 4 years, 7 months ago

.

Matthew, I am sorry to disappoint you. I thought a lot about having not finished my post and that you in particular would note the omission.

Among the attributes of a patriot is to defend his country from all threats, real or imagined.

There certainly those who would create deceptions to advance worthy purposes. Politicians and zealots of the moralistic sort come to mind as the stereotypes. I do not believe anyone posting here is among them, but some of those falsehoods may be repeated herein. Many are very convincing, some unbelievable ones eventually are proved true even after all the official denials.

If any of the scenarios seeuski is concerned about are true we will be fortunate to have had someone watching and warning. If none prove true we will be even more fortunate.

Your impassioned repudiation of his statements brings to mind a quote from Abraham Lincoln:

"Let us, therefore, study the incidents of this as philosophy to learn wisdom from, and none of them as wrongs to be revenged.

---Response to a Serenade, November 10 1864---

And one for seeuski:

"If the policy of the government, upon vital questions affecting the whole people, is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court, the people will have ceased, to be their own rulers, having, to that extent, practically resigned their government into the hands of that eminent tribunal. Nor is there, in this view, any assault upon the court, or the judges. It is a duty, from which they may not shrink, to decide cases properly brought before them; and it is no fault of theirs, if others seek to turn their decisions to political purposes."

---First Inaugural Address, March 4, 1861---

.

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seeuski 4 years, 7 months ago

Great post John.

@Scott said: "The only way I see the release of more birth info happening is if the 2012 Republican Presidential candidate is a birther and so Obama asks to have the records released to ruin that candidate's credibility."

So on the one hand, we get the lie that Obama has released his BC while on the other hand you admit he hasn't shown his birth records, and I get called a liar by these people! I have never made any claims of Obama being born in one place or another, just that we don't know where he was born and it is within our Constitutional rights that Americans know that the POTUS is fit to serve. I have also made statements that this POTUS said in his book "Dreams of My Father" that when push comes to shove he would side with Islam over the rest. Well the evidence is glaring from the actions of Government agencies like NASA to where our money is being spent and now to this. "Obama stands up for Ground Zero mosque" http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0810/41060.html

Anyone taking an open minded view of this case and reviewing the facts including who this cleric is and who he is connected to along with what he has said publicly may have similar reservations as do a large number of Americans.

And Scott you said: "Can you accept it when reality disagrees with your view of the world?" Yes I can, but you must present evidence to refute what I say here not just call me names. Saying I am a liar because Comedians like John Stewart or left wing pundits like Chris Matthews have tingles up their leg while calling people liars while furthering the WH's claims is not evidence. Again, I have made no claims except that we do not know from where this POTUS came. What Hospital was the man born in? You never answered that one. You have claimed I never answered questions like those about the deficit but I have. There were threads upon threads on these forums in which I blamed Congress for the debt and the housing crisis. But where we won't agree is that the wars after 9/11 were unjust and created the debt as most left wingers argue. Had we not had, and still have, Fannie/Freddie financing home ownership to those people who don't qualify and then continually receiving taxpayer money to bail out the losses we would not be in the situation we are in today. Fannie continues to rack up huge losses and is still receiving bailout money. Until a President addresses Fannie/ Freddie and the practices of that institution we are not going to begin to properly heal the economy. cont'd-------

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seeuski 4 years, 7 months ago

Blaming Capitalism for the economic failures created by Government manipulation of economic policy through it's institutions is like you blaming me for the birther movement or that I am creating a false reality for the innocent. No, what is happening to your little world is that people are more and more getting their news from online sources which are not beholden to this Administration, the evidence can be found in the continuing shrinking ratings for the MSM and most media publications like the NYT. In the end my friend it is me who is open to facts, and the facts as I see it are quite disturbing to say the least.

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Matthew Stoddard 4 years, 7 months ago

John- Unfortunately then, I question you actually reading seeuski's posts. To post a link and say it says "A" when it really states "B" is purposely misleading as is hanging onto to data that has changed over the course of 3 weeks. That person is then either completely insane or is forcibly lying. There is no other explanation. That is not the definition of a Patriot, unless you also call Ahmadinejad a Patriot to his country for denying the Holocaust. Hitler must have been a Patriot for tackling his perceived Jewish Threat to his country. Shall we list some more possible Patriots? Let's all give Mel Gibson a big Patriotic hug for all the stuff he keeps saying on peoples voicemail. I'm so glad this is a Patriotic issue instead of an issue of a lying fraud. I feel so much safer for my country now.

The whole birther thing is pure nonsense and is just as much a distraction as Bush's Guard Duty was in 2004. It means absolutely nothing in the bigger scheme of things. All evidence points to Obama being born in Hawaii. There is absolutely no evidence to the contrary- just unsubstantiated innuendo from idiots who drink too much arsenic with their wine. Seeuski and yvb are perfect examples.

So, until Seeuski can prove my accusation wrong about seeuski being an idiot, a liar and a fraud, it must be true and Patriotic to say so and I will keep saying it every time seeuski posts. It's my Patriotic duty. (BTW- it was a nice little "good doggie" post you typed for seeuski. Pavlov would be proud.)

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seeuski 4 years, 7 months ago

I told you to go and play with your playstation toys boy. Now go to your room.

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seeuski 4 years, 7 months ago

Now that Obama has come out in favor of the Ground Zero Mosque I am waiting for the ACLU and the rest of the separation of Church and State crowd to exclaim their displeasure as they would if Bush had supported a Church being built anywhere while a serving POTUS. If they do then they get kudos from me.

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Matthew Stoddard 4 years, 7 months ago

Name once when the ACLU came out against Bush (or any Pres) being in favor of any church being built, as long as it wasn't on Gov land. Coming out against espousing 1 religion over another or factoring religion into issues of State is unconstitutional. Saying that they agree with any church being built, unless being built by the Government would be unconstitutional (the Gov building it, not the Pres saying it). Saying, "You have the right to build the church on the land you've aquired legally," is not unconstitutional. You're just pissed because someone is finally rebuilding something there to get on with our lives. In fact, you're probably pissed because while it won't make the National Unemployment level drop, it will put some people to work, at least.

So much for being a "Constitutional Conservative." You have to have an understanding of the Constitution for that.

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Scott Wedel 4 years, 7 months ago

Seesuki, It should not be that hard to understand the difference between satisfying legal requirements, but still having private additional information.

Obama has released a verified certificate of birth that satisfies any legal requirements of showing he was born in Hawaii. Thus, he has provided sufficient evidence to everyone that has a legal justification to see that evidence and he has made it public. He does not need to do anything more.

But, these birthers are not satisfied (because all that additional information has done is expand the scope of the grand conspiracy) and some ambitious Republicans have decided to pander to the birthers. Thus, it is entirely possible that candidates for important elected offices will be making the claims of the birthers that he was not born in a Honolulu hospital, that Hawaii forged his certificate of birth and falsely verified it, fake newspaper birth notices and so on with the grand conspiracy.

So it may become POLITICALLY advantageous for Obama to say that these candidates are nutcases with such a distorted view of reality to be unfit for elected office. And thus produce the so-called long form birth certificate, and release the hospital records of his birth and so on. And try to make as big of a campaign issue as possible the wingnuts that refuse to accept Obama was born in Honolulu.

It is intellectually vapid to argue that there are unanswered questions. Of course there are unanswered questions because questions can always be asked. The fact that Obama has a birth certificate from the State of Hawaii that the State has publicly verified satisfies legal requirements. You need facts, not questions to disprove that fact.

As for your other shocking news of the day - the absolute horror of freedom of religion proposed a couple blocks away from Ground Zero supported by terrorist supporting marxists like Mayor Bloomberg. Oh well, at least it has exposed more of the people that want to destroy the USA.

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Scott Wedel 4 years, 7 months ago

And Seesuki, do you understand that the proposed mosque is not at Ground Zero? That it is on private property a couple of blocks away?

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seeuski 4 years, 7 months ago

Are you aware that a large part of one of the jets along with remnants of human remains punctured the roof of the building that the Mosque will be built at? I am glad you are again holding true to form and just following the Obama sheep. I am also glad that a majority of Americans are against this travesty and can see the hypocrisy of the left now supporting the POTUS's activism in the realm of one religion over others. Our Govt is being directed on a mission for Islam whether you want to acknowledge it or not. We are paying a Muslim cleric to go around the World on a mission for Islam? Are you kidding me? And the POTUS is supporting that Cleric in his efforts to open a Mosque within 2 blocks of the sacred Ground Zero. WTF is happening to this Nation? No school prayer, no ten commandments in the Court House, no Christmas carols, and on and on, but this is OK? Good job Progressives.

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seeuski 4 years, 7 months ago

And Scott, have you ever been to Jerusalem? I have, and seeing that Al Aqsa Mosque built on top of the ruins of the 1st and 2nd Temple is very similar to the Cordoba Mosque and the hopefully not, soon to be Ground Zero Mosque. Long after we are dead Muslims will similarly want in NYC what they want in Jerusalem, all the Jews out. Why else are these people coming from the Middle East to that part of the City? There is much less expensive property available all over the city and the Governor of NY has offered his help if the Cleric moves his Mosque to another site away from Ground Zero. So it is not about freedom of religion but that site. Just move it and we can all go about our business. Simple enough.

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John Fielding 4 years, 7 months ago

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It is true Matthew, I confess, I do not visit all the links seeuski posts. I do not even read all of his postings sometimes, nor yours, especially the longer ones.

There is more to the message than the words.

Wen I read seeuski I get: I am concerned for my country.

When I read Kielbasa I get: I don't like what these guys are saying.

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John Fielding 4 years, 7 months ago

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http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/patriot

Noun

patriot (plural patriots)

  1. A person who loves and zealously supports and defends his or her country.

Not all attributes are positive, nor actions constructive. But let us not question the motivations, only the means employed to those worthy ends.

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Matthew Stoddard 4 years, 7 months ago

John- Then you should probably read deeper into both. You don't consider someone trying to stop insane ramblings meant to scare people, usually needlessly, as being concerned for your country. It's more Patriotic to allow misinformation to be spouted forth, I guess, without repercussion or opposition, as long as it's misinformation that gets you ahead.

So you are right: I don't like people saying stuff that is untrue to further their agenda. That's not in the spirit of Free Speech. It's the same as yelling "Fire" in a crowded movie theater when it isn't so. So I love my country enough to put down anyone lying about things in a partisan manner, especially when they attach themselves to Republican candidates, the party I'm in. Republicans do not need zealots of this fashion among them.

I can't say that enough. I'm sorry if that's passing you by but before hopping in to save or admonish someone for their posts and thoughts, you might want to fully read them to stay fully informed. If you don't, I can't consider you any better than seeuski in that aspect. It means you took a side without bothering to figure out what side is presenting what arguments or facts. Doing this can only hnder you in seeing a picture you're missing. Anything other than making the attempt at fully understanding both sides is partisanship in it's purest form.

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John Fielding 4 years, 7 months ago

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Matthew, I agree that your motivations are also patriotic. And I certainly do not expect there will be no opposition, I would be very concerned if there was not.

I maintain that the extremes of opinion do not balance each other, but that both they and their moderate counterpoints are essential to constructive discussion. It is OK to let the misinformation into the mix as well, it will get sorted out eventually and has a certain value of its own.

I do believe it is not necessary to digest all of what a person puts forth to have come to an understanding of their position, and to me that is more important than exactly who they quote.

I will be happy to continue this later, family duties compel me now.

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Scott Wedel 4 years, 7 months ago

So this proposed mosque, two blocks away, is going to grow until it absorbs ground zero? This is supposed to be the USA, freedom of religion, and some mosque on private property two blocks away is not a problem.

So do you now see the difference between Obama meeting legal requirements showing those that need to be convinced that he was born in Hawaii vs having the option to release even more evidence if he wishes to further discredit birthers?

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seeuski 4 years, 7 months ago

Lets see here the head liar calling me out? This same liar said I called someone on this forum a Nazi, I offered a reward if he finds the post he said he was looking for and what did we get? Nothing, it never happened. Then the zealot said I claimed Obama was born in Kenya, I offered up a reward for that post and what did we get? Nothing. And when I made a widely publicized news report about the support for AZ SB 1070 known on these forums I was called a liar because the zealot found a different poll taken by a different polling company at a later date that was 3 points lower, within the margin of error, than the earlier poll. This zealot has made numerous claims of being a Republican and a Conservative and yet he has supported the current Administrations left wing Marxist policies from the start by attacking me rather than arguing his position. Claiming that people with views like mine that are "attaching themselves to Republican candidates" to hijack the party is a joke. There comes a time when the zealot must realize he is not who he thinks he is. The zealot must learn to except the people whom he feels most comfortable with and it is NOT the Conservative party. Why else would he denigrate nearly 1/3rd of the population, the Tea Party, with derogatory statement after derogatory statement? No, I say that the zealot just doesn't like the Conservative message at all. It is his tactic to try and bully people into an opinion different from which they had by twisting the message and calling it a lie. This zealot can not post one thing here that I have said that he can prove false and so he will use argumentative polling data, or say I said something I did not in order to win influence with people like JohnFielding and others. Let the truth be known.

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seeuski 4 years, 7 months ago

No Scott I don't see it. Thanks for the effort but it is time to agree to disagree on this one. The POTUS should NEVER have the "option to release even more evidence if he wishes to further discredit birthers" as you so put it. Every POTUS to be should have to prove his/her eligibility to serve as is prescribed in the Constitution. And this Mosque issue has now become a separation of Church and State attached directly to the POTUS with his own words of support. The firestorm is at HIS feet now. What else would one expect when he echoed the view of so called moderate Muslims right after 9/11. "We should also examine the foreign policies of the U.S. to make sure that we occupy the moral high ground in these conflicts. In particular, we have to examine some of the root causes of this terrorist activity." -- then-State Senator Obama's post 911 attack remarks. This is what a US Senator says the day after 9/11, especially when at the time Bush was a proclaimed "anti state builder"? The USA was not threatening war at the time so Obama's mindset was that the US asked for it. GREAT.

"Building mosques over churches, synagogues and temples of the conquered people began during the life of Muhammad who converted the temple of the Arabs in Mecca into an Islamic mosque.
Muslims have been doing the same ever since. Numerous Hindu temples, churches, synagogues and Zoroastrian temples were converted into mosques. The objective is twofold” To humiliate the defeated people and to establish the supremacy of Islam." http://www.newenglishreview.org/blog_direct_link.cfm/blog_id/29127

Some of us have been awake for many years and have seen this coming. The coming decades will be fraught with struggle here in the US.

"What is Da’wa? Da’wa means invitations to submit to Islam. Jihad has two phases. The first phase is the invitation. Disbelievers are to be warned first and given a chance to submit. If they refuse the next stage is qital (fighting). Da’wa and qital are integral parts of jihad.

The Cordova House will be the ultimatum, a line drawn in the sand for the Americans. After the da’wa is issued, Americans will have two choices: They must either submit to Islam or face more terrorism."

This statement from the above link is certain to ruffle some feathers because this concept doesn't resonate with most Americans and therefore comes across as a radical fear mongering lie. It isn't a lie to those around the World that are currently being massacred for not submitting. Look in Africa, look in the S. Pacific Islands, Indonesia etc. It is occurring.

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knee_dropper 4 years, 7 months ago

The government has no business dictating if a mosque, synagogue or church is built on private land, if you don't agree with then you should reread the 1st amendment. Is this the position of the Tea party, or just seeu that the government should keep this mosque from being built?

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seeuski 4 years, 7 months ago

The President should not be involved, if need be let the courts hear the case. The people are speaking up Knee_dropper, and you are on the minority side again. Don't forget the "seperation of Church and State" or are you now a religious person seeking guidance from Obama? So glad to see that the left are all for a POTUS being involved with religion now that it is their POTUS. I remember when the left were up in arms over Bush using terms like God bless America, or that he was seeking guidance from his maker, whatever. He was clobbered as a religious zealot, but now it's alright. Just awesome people. This is what the rise of Fascism looks like.

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trump_suit 4 years, 7 months ago

Where would you have them build their Mosque see? While I do not "want" a Mosque at the site of Ground Zero, or really even close, I do not beleive that the Constitution makes any exceptions for persecuting Islam.

For someone who claims to be such a strict constitutionalist, I ould expect you to support those basic rights such as "Right to Bear Arms", "Freedom of Speech", and "Freedom of Religion"

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

Although I do not like some of the actions and speeches that are allowed under our Constitution, I respect the rights of others that may disagree with me. Earlier in this thread, I apologized for going over the line in this regard. I have to say that I think it is wrong headed for us to persecute all members of the Islam faith for the actions of a few and it would be seriously wrong to prevent those individuals from building churches for them to worship their God. Imagine the uproar if Colorado passed a law banning a specific religion from building a temple in Denver.

While I do not approve of of like the site of that Mosque, I repsect the rights of those Americans that want to use their property for that reason. It is their right.

In a nutshell, that is what Pres. Obama has said also. Would you have a sitting President come out against the 1st Ammendment?

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knee_dropper 4 years, 7 months ago

So does popular opinion trump the constitution now Seeu? Or just when the cause suits you? As for the president, he has stated that he supports their 1st amendment right to worship. So are you reinterpreting the constitution or do you think that it doesn't apply to non-christians?

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seeuski 4 years, 7 months ago

Good points by both of you. I am not claiming that this Mosque is un-Constitutional, I am saying what trump just said but more passionately. The Mosque could go anywhere else but there and that it is the President that has crossed the line in his support for that Mosque in that location. It is NOT the place for ANY President to put his power and force behind any one faith and their ambitions. If it were a Church or Synagogue and Bush had supported such a thing I would say the same. The ultimate crossing of the separation of Church and State line by this POTUS is a serious issue now.
I would hope at least that my foes on this forum would be consistent in this one thing.

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housepoor 4 years, 7 months ago

In his speech at the White House dinner Friday, Obama said Muslims "have the same right to practice their religion as anyone else in this country."

That is what all this fuss is about? Recognizing that the owners of a private property have a right to use it as they please? You act as if he suggested the City of New York donate land at the WTC site to build a mosque .

How is that one comment crossing the seperation of Church and State?????

I didn't think republicans favored the seperation?

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John Fielding 4 years, 7 months ago

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The most deeply rooted of American traditions is that of religious freedom. The forms that takes are the right to worship as one wishes, and the freedom from having to support or make substantial accommodation for someone elses notion of the proper relationship with the Forces of Nature that have resulted in our existence.

As the method by which we uphold this Conviction we are, if not embracing, then at least tolerant of all positions, even those which are intolerant themselves, up to the point where they seriously infringe upon the rights of others. An inconvenience is not enough, attempts to legislate morality are not enough, it takes actions of coercion, subversion, or sedition to provide a basis for the government to force a change upon a religious order.

The classic example in American history is the "Mormon War" of 1857-58, when the Army was sent to the Utah territory to assert Federal control, and the subsequent legislation to enforce the abolition of polygamy by confiscation of the property of the Church and imprisonment of its non compliant members.

But far more frequent are the clashes between advocates of a "Christian Nation" and those in office who find it their duty to resist that appeal. Many of these instances are well described by John Meacham in "American Gospel: God, the Founding Fathers, and the Making of a Nation". There have been some serious and well supported efforts to accomplish this in our Nation's history.

The fact that we have not become a Christian Theocracy can be some comfort to those who fear that Islam could succeed instead. And it is not only at the federal level that resistance will be found. Using the Mormons as an example again, as they asserted theocratic power in Illinois in the 1840s, the other local residents invoked mob rule, sometimes condoned by the authorities, and by a form of civil war drove them into the west. Such actions seem a shocking violation of the right to religious freedom from one perspective, and as a defense of freedom from religion from the other.

A man who witnessed some of these events gave an eloquent summary of the reason we may expect to successfully resist this threat from Jihad as we have resisted so many attempts to install coercive regimes, here and around the world.

"What constitutes the bulwark of our own liberty and independence? It is not our frowning battlements, our bristling sea coasts, our army and our navy. These are not our reliance against tyranny. All of these could be turned against us without making us weaker for the struggle. Our reliance is in the love of liberty which God has planted in us. Our defense is in the spirit which prized liberty as the heritage of all men, in all lands everywhere. Destroy this spirit and you have planted the seeds of despotism at your own doors"

Abraham Lincoln: Speech at Edwardsville, September 11, 1858.

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John Fielding 4 years, 7 months ago

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Let us hope the struggle with Jihad and similar external threats does not inspire us to sacrifice this spirit in hope of security, as with the Patriot Act. As Benjamin Franklin once said "People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.

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seeuski 4 years, 7 months ago

Location of Ground Zero Mosque:

http://www.aipnews.com/talk/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=16201&posts=1

They would build it in the middle of Ground Zero if they could. An engine from one of the planes crashed through the roof of the Burlington Coat factory along with human remains. Great place for a Mosque.

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1999 4 years, 7 months ago

the entire "ground zer is a sacred site" is pure hog wash.

good grief.....thousands and thousands of men and women who actually SERVED our country are losing their bennies and lives. The VAs routinely run in the red. injured vets are being passed over and forgotton.

we have spent millions of dollars on the "ground zero " crap and paying money out to the victims families.

why should they get any money when people who have actually SERVED our country get treated like crap. The victims of 9/11 were simply in the wrong place at the wrong time.

build a park...sure but for Gods sake....put our efforts and $$$$$$ where it's needed.... not on some silly belief that the ground is sacred.

That said...I don't see why a mosque can not be built. I don't see how it can possibly tarnish the memory of any other victims.

should we errect a huge expensive memorial every time someone is killed?

what is the reason behind the "sacred ground" crap?

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1999 4 years, 7 months ago

seeuski..

do you know how many human remains from the american indians, civil war, trail of tears etc etc etc.......we rountinly walk upon?

whats your real beef?

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John Fielding 4 years, 7 months ago

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I am in a new Lincoln phase since I picked up two books about him at Mount Rushmore. One "Lincoln's Virtues" is deep and describes the moral development of the man. Interesting tidbits, ie that he was abstinent from alcohol but would not join temperance associations, that he opposed slavery but would not support abolitionist movements, indicate he would support worthy ends but not the means that zealot would employ to attain them.

The other, "The Wit and Wisdom of Abraham Lincoln" is a collection of quotes and anecdotes well sorted for reference. While I have been using it as a source for some of my commentary, I usually like to cross reference each quote from another source before using it as I often find context or editing omissions that I take into account.

In surfing for these cross references I have come across many interesting sites. The one I am providing a link for below looks to be an old Ron Paul 08 site, it has a lot of very good quotes nicely organized. Here is one:

..."it is obvious that a government is nothing more or less than a relatively small group of citizens who have been hired, in a sense, by the rest of us to perform certain functions and discharge certain responsibilities which have been authorized. It stands to reason that the government itself has no innate power or privilege to do anything. Its only source of authority and power is from the people who have created it.".

http://www.proconstitution.com/quotes_on_todays_issues.php

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seeuski 4 years, 7 months ago

1999, If you can't figure out my "real beef" from all of my posts you are blind. I am leaving this blog finally and getting back to life while we still have some sunny days left.

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1999 4 years, 7 months ago

I really don' tunderstand what your beef is. Perhaps you could write just a short paragraph about your beef with a) community center near ground zero. b) "sacred ground" at ground zero.

tell you what...two of my brothers died in Vietnam. no one gave a sh..it. no one was "compensated". there was no "huge kazillion dollar memorial". no one gave a sh..itt about their remains. no one cared about the "sacred ground on which they died"

four of my nieces and nephews have died in Iraq. no one has suggested a memorial for them. no one has been compensated. we have no rights to the land on which they died. their names will never be known.

and these people actually served their country.

and the 9/11 people want MORE!!!!!! more money.more recognition. more fame. more memorials. more tv spots. more more more

tell them to sign up and fight In iraq and then they maight have a claim.

but until then......

SHUT THE HELL UP!!!!!

but really seeuski...i don't understand what your real beef is.

lets hear it.

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sledneck 4 years, 7 months ago

I am ashamed of conservatives from time to time. This is one of those times. (and it's why I'm a libertarian) Who we should be pissed at is our own govt. for not being able to get it's head out and re-build the WTC for a decade! ... A FREAKIN DECADE!!

I am ashamed to live in a country that allows a mosque to legally beat the new WTC out of the ashes... ashamed but not surprised.

The mosque folks have every right to build there and I don't blame them.

I just hope someone has the common decency to fly a fuel-ladened aircraft full of pilgrims returning from Mecca right into that new mosque soon after its rightful completion.

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1999 4 years, 7 months ago

sledneck..there has been a mosque at ground zero for roughly 30 years.

repubs and our fun inflamatory media is just NOW making hay of this COMMUNITY CENTER to get people like you and Seeuski up in arms.

clearly it works.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/17/us/politics/17mosque.html?src=me

The developer, Sharif el-Gamal, a real estate investor born in New York, has said the center would include meeting rooms, a prayer space, a 500-seat auditorium and a pool. Two mosques, founded in 1970 and 1985, are already within several blocks of the proposed center. They are so busy and crowded that a search was begun for more space.

you people need to get your facts and your hatred straight

this is good too...

Democratic campaign officials accused Republicans of exploiting the Sept. 11 attacks, noting that their outrage over the Islamic center came just weeks after many House Republicans opposed a new medical program to monitor and treat emergency workers and others suffering ill effects from exposure to hazardous materials at ground zero.

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seeuski 4 years, 7 months ago

Who is showing hate here 1999? You obviously hate the victims of 9/11 and you obviously hate the majority of Americans who see things quite differently than you do. I would also suggest to you that I have been focused on the Islamic issue a lot longer than as you put it "repubs and our fun inflamatory media is just NOW making hay of this COMMUNITY CENTER to get people like you and Seeuski up in arms". You need to go back and read my posts on this issue because I am not going to repeat my position. Also, your whitewashing of those involved in the development of the Ground Zero Mosque is nice for those who DO get their info from the MSM but not so much for those of us who are truly informed of who is involved and from where the funding is coming from. You also should look outside our media and see how this subject is being played throughout the worldwide Islamic community, if you think this is not a matter of the supremacy of that faith over the US Infidels then I feel sorry for you. What they say to our faces here and what is really their motivation as they describe it amongst their own is two different things. As far as CNN jumping to the defense by showing that a Mosque has been in the area for 3 decades, that just bolsters my earlier post that that we are not against Muslims rights to pray as is protected by the Constitution, just that this act of supremacy is wrong. So my question to you is, why do you hate the victims of the 9/11 terrorist attacks? And why do you think you are the one to take their rights of free speech and freedom to protest away by telling them to "shut the hell up"? Have a nice day.

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seeuski 4 years, 7 months ago

And are there not Dems that are publicly voicing their resistance to this Mosque like Harry Reid for example?

And we wouldn't be in Iraq or Afghanistan if it weren't for 9/11.

The Mosque has nothing to do with outreach!

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sledneck 4 years, 7 months ago

1999, Do you read? I am not opposed to the construction of the new mosque. That puts me in the opposite corner from See on this PARTICULAR issue.

Whether there has been a mosque there or not has nothing to do with the conversation.

What exactly are "people like you and seeuski" like? Inferior vermin who, no doubt need to be rounded up and... ? Certainly we lack the intellect to be part of the ruling class to which people like YOU aspire. Your opinions are grounded in knowledge beyond the capacity of "people like me and seeuski". We should probably be taken off the voter roles, sterilized and put in a laboratory for observation, no?

And, I am not "up in arms". When I am, you'll know it.

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Matthew Stoddard 4 years, 7 months ago

And Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, you lying POS. They should rightly build the mosque, if they own the land legally. Looks like someone wants to legislate "sensitivity" in a PC fashion. Very Liberal way to think.

Why do people keep calling it "The Ground Zero Mosque?" I thought this was 3 blocks away? How far is far enough before it's not called "The Ground Zero Mosque" any longer? How many of the people responsible for building this mosque were indicted for 9/11 or is it about guilt through association with Islam?

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Troutguy 4 years, 7 months ago

For goodness sake, it's pretty simple. Both private property rights and the 1st amendment to the constitution give them the right to build this thing wherever they please. Remember the constitution? That little piece of written word that makes our country so great? Whether you agree with the decision to build this center or not, it is within their constitutional rights to do so.

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1999 4 years, 7 months ago

I'd like to hear more about how Iraq, afghanistan and 9/11 are related.

Why are we in Iraq and afghanistan again?

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sledneck 4 years, 7 months ago

We are in Iraq because, in my opinion, GW Bush threw a temper tantrum cause Sadam tried to kill his dad.

We are in Afghanistan, in my opinion, because nobody in our entire freakin government owns a topo map or a history book. (thanks pat)

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1999 4 years, 7 months ago

:fingeronnose:

"If our gov wants something from your country...they just make you an enemy"

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sledneck 4 years, 7 months ago

I suppose we want them to expell Taliban and Al-queada (forgive spelling, i didn't grow up there) and deny them a base of ops.

I,personally don't want anything from Afghanistan. I say we leave it alone, wish them well and give them a parting warning... "If any headaches to America originate in your country (lets tell 'em all this) then and only then, we will be back. If we come back there are only 2 possibilities for your nation." 1. It will become the 51st state of USA. or 2. It will glow in the dark for a thousand years.

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Kevin Nerney 4 years, 7 months ago

Right on Sledneck----A quick history lesson for those who are so inclined to listen. Let's go back 30 some odd years. A lifetime for some, like yesterday for others.I was hired by the NYPD in July of 1981. I worked with many Police Officers who were on the down slide of mediocre careers,however these guys went through the "war years"as they were called. The days of the riots, PLO (Palestine Liberation Organization, Black Panthers,etc). Many of these groups were led by Muslims and the followers were also muslims. Now to the point. There are many mosques in "the big apple" and a handful in Brooklyn where I worked. The guys that broke me in relayed many stories about running shootouts through the streets of Brooklyn wether in East NY or Flatbush or any of a number of neighborhoods, where these "Muslims"(crooks,bad guys, gang members) would seek refuge in a Mosque and instantly claimed Diplomatic immunity and we are not allowed to enter these mosque's. A little research will reveal how many cops got killed in those days. In the years I worked for the NYPD we averaged 8 cops a year. So basically what I'm saying is very little has changed. These are bad dudes and they aren't getting any better. The young ones don't know history and the older ones seem to forget (or want to believe things have changed for the better). I say ,as you may have seen on the 9/ll banners and T shirts "All gave some, Some gave all" and NEVER FORGET.

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John Fielding 4 years, 7 months ago

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Right on Sled, you pinpointed what we want. The only problem is they are not capable of giving it, no one there could stop the Taliban or even create any real conciliation between warlords. If that is what we want we will have to do it ourselves. So it looks like the 51st state option is it.

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seeuski 4 years, 7 months ago

Thanks Kevin, we only get the pretty side of these people from the MSM. Based on the actual statistics I would say Muslims have the least of any minority group to worry about in this Country. http://www.jihadwatch.org/2007/11/fbi-hate-crimes-report-for-2006-jews-suffer-over-5-times-more-attacks-than-muslims.html "FBI hate crimes report for 2006: Jews suffer over 5 times more attacks than Muslims"

Just build the Mosque somewhere else and leave the victims of the Islamic attacks of 9/11 alone. Learn from this former PLO terrorist what the truth is. http://www.shoebat.com/videos/cnnUSA.php

And John, I guess what we want from Afghanistan is sand. What did we get from Iraq? That "blood for oil" garbage has turned out to be a lie.

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Scott Wedel 4 years, 6 months ago

When my aunt worked for the Oakland police dept in the 70s, she arrested so many Christians. Christians that were thieves, prostitutes and so on. She worked vice and constantly arrested Christians soliciting for prostitution. Sure, she arrested some people of other faiths, but the clear majority was Christian.

So obviously Christians are bad dudes and we should not allow them to have any more churches.

Seriously, is there any limit to guilt by association?

Since a major source of money for the Mosque near Ground Zero is also a large owner of FoxCorp, then clearly profits from Foxnews would flow to the building of the Mosque. Thus, I suggest that it now be officially called The Foxnews Ground Zero Mosque.

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