Archive for Sunday, August 15, 2010
Rick Akin: Why the stimulus did not work
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“Deficit spending is simply a scheme for the confiscation of wealth.”
— Alan Greenspan
As is obvious, the stimulus bill did not work to stimulate the economy — sure it worked to buy favor and some votes, and the recipients of the funds were stimulated, but it did not stimulate the overall economy. The truth is that there was no possibility that it would stimulate the economy, and the reasons are easy to see.
The government does not create wealth. If it could, then it could just give each of us a trillion dollars, and we would all be rich. Wealth is created by private enterprise, and it consists of the goods and services for which a dollar may be exchanged. If there is no increase in the amount of goods and services available for purchase, but there are more dollars in the system, this just means that each dollar is worth less.
The second truth here is that the theory that government spending will stimulate the economy is fundamentally flawed. The additional dollars spent by the government must come from somewhere. While the person to whom the money is given by the government may be stimulated, the person from whom the value is taken experiences the opposite effect.
Specifically, money spent by the government must come from one of three places:
Taxes
Borrowing
An increase in the money supply, i.e., printing more money.
With taxes, it is easy to see that the dollar given to one is taken from another, but the effect actually is even worse than that. The increased tax rates act as a disincentive for productive members of society to produce. This means there is less wealth produced and there are fewer goods and services available. Consequently, government spending financed by taxes retards, rather than stimulates, the economy.
Government borrowing has a similar effect. If funds are lent to the government, then they are not available for other forms of investment or capital formation for business. They cannot be loaned to businesses or individuals or invested in business enterprises. The borrowing takes out as much money from the economy as the spending puts in. But again, it is really worse than that. Increased government borrowing will, at least throughout time, drive up interest rates, which again act as a disincentive for the producers to produce and again retards, rather than stimulates, the economy.
The Federal Reserve, like any central bank, can increase the money supply. This usually is accomplished by the Fed buying government securities in its open market operations. The difficulty here, though, is twofold. First, the creation of more money without the creation of more wealth in the form of goods and services just means each dollar is worth less than it otherwise would have been. It also acts to redistribute wealth because it decreases the wealth of people holding dollars or securities denominated in dollars, such as bonds. This strikes me as particularly pernicious since there is essentially no voter control of the Fed.
The better approach is to foster the creation of goods and services. By this, I do not mean the government subsidizing business. I mean the government getting out of the way. For the amount spent on the stimulus bill, personal and corporate income taxes could have been eliminated for two years. Now, that’s what I call stimulus.
So, Washington, let’s give this some further thought before you rush through more spending in Stimulus II.
Rick Akin is an attorney practicing in Steamboat Springs, Denver and Austin, Texas, a former member of the Steamboat Pilot & Today Editorial Board, and is vice chairman of The Steamboat Institute. He holds a Bachelor of Arts in Letters from the University of Oklahoma and a doctorate from the University of Texas.
Comments
jimmmmmm (anonymous) says...
Thought the article was about the Stimulus spending, not TARP.
I'd say you 'blew it bigtime' with your post YVB.
TARP is getting repaid with interest, and is probably the best money ever spent by the gov't.
Do some research sometime.
August 16, 2010 at 10:08 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JustSomeJoe (anonymous) says...
Any editorial/opinion piece that starts "as is obvious..." generally fails and this Akin edition fails on multiple points; the beginning, the middle and the end. Same old, same old, only thing missing is an Ayn Rand and/or Ronald Reagan quote.
August 16, 2010 at 11:43 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jimmmmmm (anonymous) says...
I think I may have posted this awhile back, but not sure. Not trying to discount what Rick's point is, because he does make a solid argument.
http://thinkprogress.org/2010/02/17/s...
The problem with Rick's artical is, he doesn't reference any of the good results of the Stimulus spending. Ask anyone who's job was saved if the Stimulus was beneficial.
August 16, 2010 at 12:32 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
NamVet (anonymous) says...
For the last 30 years Conservatives have told us that cutting taxes is the answer to all our problems. Ronald Reagan cut taxes(less gov't revenue) but at the same time increased gov't spending by 69% and tripled the deficit. George W. Bush cut taxes but he also increased gov't spending by 68% and added $5 trillion to the deficit and gave us the Greatest Recession since the Great Depression. In 2006 85% of all US Corporations paid ZERO income tax thanks to all the loopholes and tax credits they receive. Those that actually paid income tax have a 9% effective tax rate. If it is unpatriotic to pay taxes anymore then who is going to pay for all the wars the Conservatives want to start when they retake control of the gov't again.
August 16, 2010 at 3:07 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
housepoor (anonymous) says...
WOODRUFF: On those tax cuts, they are due to expire at the end of this year. Should they be extended? What should Congress do?
GREENSPAN: I should say they should follow the law and let them lapse.
August 16, 2010 at 4:18 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seeuski (anonymous) says...
Nothing changes.
You have someone claiming that Bush added 5 Trillion to the deficit yet the deficit, including TARP, was 1.4 when Obama took office. If TARP is being paid back with interest then why is the deficit climbing, especially since we are drawing down in Iraq?
Why is it OK for the quadrupling of the deficit under this POTUS now?
Why aren't these people angry that we were promised the unemployment rate would not go above 8% with the 865 billion dollar stimulus and it is over 9.6%?
Arguing that Rick Akin is wrong when he states in the clearest possible terms the argument against Government taking over for the private sector just shows the ideological divide we have in this Country.
Who can provide proof of any Marxist/Communist/Socialist system in history that has succeeded in providing an existence as good as ours?
Our system is failing because it has been abused by the blending of those proven failures.
We are about to experience some deep dark days, all the economic indicators say so and yet the people, all of us, who will be effected the most are sitting idly by while it is hoisted upon us.
Insanity.
August 16, 2010 at 5:37 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ybul (anonymous) says...
Jimmmmmmmmmm
you are right that the stimulus saved jobs and probably created some jobs building roads. However, when one looks at it as a whole the stimulus will have created no long lasting source for wealth creation.
What was missing from the stimulus was any long term funding for jobs that create wealth in this country, either at the base level, by converting sunlight into a consumable, using those products created through photosynthesis and adding value to them, extracting energy or the like.
Most investment went towards the construction of infrastructure and government jobs, which do not create more tax revenue than they cost. Roads serve to facilitate the transportation of goods with lower production costs to areas with higher costs. Moving bananas from the equator to the northern reaches, no wealth was created in this transaction it was simply moved from one area to another.
We need to focus on wealth creating industries to right the ship.
Also, on the converting of sunlight into wealth, that is the ONLY way we have to create real wealth today, it has created the energy/oil we have which we use to extract mineral wealth, it is the fundamental underpinning of wealth and is essentially trounced upon by our government as the elite wish to control all. http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.... lovely food safety legislation that could destroy farm to consumer models that are starting to allow independent farmers to compete with the giants.
August 16, 2010 at 6:13 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
sledneck (anonymous) says...
NamVet,
Varying tax rates work on a bell curve. A 100% tax rate or a 0% tax rate would both yield no tax revenue for obvious reasons. Somewhere in the middle is a tax rate that allows people to keep a large enough portion of their earnings that they are willing to accelerate production. Accelerated production boosts revenue.
Regarding corporations and taxes: US corporations pay no taxes. They never have and they never will. Despite some peoples enthusiastic hatred of "big oil" or "big whatever" levying taxes on corporations is a DIRECT TAX ON YOU!
Whenever I hear people say how corporations should be made to pay more taxes I laugh. What these dimwits are saying is they want more expensive goods and services... nothing more.
August 16, 2010 at 6:23 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
NamVet (anonymous) says...
Seeuki please get your information right. The annual budget when Bush took office was 1.8 trillion with a 300 billion plus SURPLUS and when he left it was 3.2 trillion a year with a 1.2 trillion DEFICIT. He added over 5 trillion to the deficit over his 8 years. If that is Conservative you can have it.
TARP was put into effect in 2008 during the Bush Administration under Sec. of the Tres. Paulson(ex CEO of GOLDMAN SACHS)not the Obama Administration. The Stimulus is Obama's responsibility not Bush. The Auto bailout was done by both.
The bottom line is that this country will never totally recover from the 8 years of BUSH and the so called Conservative Congress which is why unemployment will stay high..
The constant name calling you use to reference people you don't agree with is just plain childish.
August 16, 2010 at 7:29 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
sledneck (anonymous) says...
A perpetual whipping-boy. Why didn't someone think of that sooner?
FBF FBF FBF Forever Bush's Fault!!!
The level of critical thought required for that analysis is impressive.
Actually sombody DID think of that before. "It's all whitey's fault" has worked for ghetto dwellers for decades. Why not insert Bush? Either way it beats personal responsibility.
August 16, 2010 at 7:44 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
sledneck (anonymous) says...
I think what is missing in all of this is the knowledge that worthwhile jobs do not need "funding". They fund themselves. So does worthwhile energy, worthwhile environmental initiatives, etc. THATS what makes them WORTH WHILE.
Only a fool thinks society can perpetually fund jobs, initiatives, causes, campaigns, actions and other uphamisticly titled BS. If it was worthwhile the dollars would prove it to the whole world.
"Talk is cheap. It takes money to buy whisky."
August 16, 2010 at 9:08 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jimmmmmm (anonymous) says...
Another excellent post YVB. I love how you proved absolutely nothing. Stick to something your an expert at......the Kenyan Birth Certificate.
Seeuski-All this time I'm thinking your a passionate, intelligent, and articulate Conservative. I guess 2 out of 3 ain't bad.
"If TARP is being paid back with interest then why is the deficit climbing, especially since we are drawing down in Iraq?" Your kidding right? Wow. I can't even waste the time with that nonsense. I'm sure you can find something on Youtube to explain what is driving the deficits.
Ybul-I completely agree with everything you stated. At the same time, the Stimulus has kept people working, which obviously is not the end all to our problems, but has provided a paycheck for many families. Jobs, whether long term or not, are crucial right now. My point was to shed light on a small positive in this mess. And to give YVF a good jab.
August 16, 2010 at 9:58 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ybul (anonymous) says...
Short term jobs which only serve to increase the national debt are not a good thing and will only make the long term pain worse. In the long run it has simply postponed the problem and saddled the country with more debt.
August 17, 2010 at 6:28 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jimmmmmm (anonymous) says...
Tell that to someone with a family, who has a job now due to the Stimulus. Yeah, tell them "your job is causing the country long term pain". Again, you do make an un-arguable point that I do agree with, however, the "job" is more important right now to working Americans, not the debt. It's easy for all of us to state and re-state how important our national debt is, but until your out of work, with a family, I'm not sure you'd have the same argument.
August 17, 2010 at 9:19 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seeuski (anonymous) says...
Created or saved, the new ideal for the emotionally connected. Keep the heard moving towards the cliff. Cloward and Piven in action.
We are living in alternate Universes.
See you on the other side jimmmmmmmmmmmmmm and pay no attention to the numbers or reality as you float along.
August 17, 2010 at 9:26 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
sledneck (anonymous) says...
Keep paychecks flowing by taking money out of paychecks, running it through a corrupt beauracracy and sending it back out to a different class of citizen; a class that has heretofore proven it's ineptitude at saving, investing, covering its financial burdens, putting the good of the nation ahead of their personal greed at the polls, etc.
BRILLIANT! Working just great.
Works about as well as filling a pool by taking buckets of water from the deep end and pouring them in the shallow end.
It's as if people haven't the mental capacity to even understand that government money was once the peoples'.
August 17, 2010 at 9:38 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jimmmmmm (anonymous) says...
Get real Seeuski or get a grip. The only thing you and people like you care about are your taxes. You preach daily about this debt, and how the Dem's caused it, but your the one not paying attention.
Think again about how responsible the Bush tax cuts were. Man-you and people like you can preach to the masses about our problems, but never will you admit to your philosophical disasters. Your conservative mantra sounds great, and who wouldn't want lower taxes and smaller gov't. Just look at the track record my friend-it doesn't work. I'm sure you were happy as a pig in s**t with those tax cuts-probably thought it was the responsible thing to do.
Too bad you've lost your freedom, liberty, and all that, and your life sucks. I happen to have a different opinion-I caught some beautiful trout this weekend, and spent a lot of time with the wife and kids. Life is good. This Communist/Marxist/Socialist society is treating me just fine.
Here is an excellent Op-Ed from your hated NY Times. Sorry, but it is a great read, and explains some real truths about our situation.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/01/opi...
Get responsible Seeuski.
August 17, 2010 at 10:08 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
kielbasa (Matthew Stoddard) says...
Since we're quoting Alan Greenspan,
7AUG10- Phone interview to NY Times on 6AUG10
"I'm in favor of tax cuts, but not with borrowed money." Alan Greenspan
August 17, 2010 at 10:13 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ybul (anonymous) says...
My argument would be that we need less government intervention ala the proposed food safety bill that will make it harder for local farms to compete. If we do away with one industrial food job we create 3 local food jobs.
We need less government stupidity, ala unemployment insurance taxes business' pay for workers they employ. As opposed to taxing employers for their employees, why not give them a tax break for their employees and have a national sales tax to make up the difference and pay the employers a bonus for keeping someone off the unemployment line.
The jobs being created today are short term fluff that do nothing to structurally change the system. We need to fundamentally work towards changing the system! Just throwing out "money" does not right the ship, it might serve to make the "righting" of the ship that much more difficult and those who temporarily had there jobs saved may be out of work for twice as long, in the long run because of poor decisions by our government, that wants to control everything.
August 17, 2010 at 3:37 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
howard_roark (anonymous) says...
I really think Alan Greenspan has had a wake-up call in the aftermath of the housing meltdown. He claimed to be a true conservative, a man of Adam Smith economics, but he was really just working the invisible hand, keeping interest rates at an unreasonably low level. He has since realized that this excessive spending must be financed somehow. He is in favor of tax cuts, but is a realist above all else.
Bush was not a true conservative either. And it disgusts me that people who believe in free-market ideals actually defend him. If you want to cut taxes, you must also cut spending. And all liberals want to talk about is Bush's war and the deficit spending. Isn't your hypocrite president still waging war in the Middle East? I thought so!
75% of what our federal government does could be cut completely or privatized. Read the constitution.
And one more thing (pay attention here Jimmmmmmm):
your = something belonging to you
you're = contraction of "you are"
August 17, 2010 at 6:51 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
sledneck (anonymous) says...
Howard Roark,
EXACTLY! Well said.
65%-80% of the government needs to be eliminated.
Jimmmmm,
The communist/ marxist system is not treating you fine or otherwise. You are still living off the products of a capitalist society. Do you really think chairman Mao or Stalin would allow you to fish and loaf around with your kids all weekend? Hardly.
It is sad how few Americans do not understand the 3 principles of sowing and reaping.
1. You reap WHAT you sow.
2. You reap MORE than you sow.
3. You reap LATER than you sow.
The communist chickens will come home eventually.
Your smug sounding attitude of how well the commie system is treating you is like a man who jumps from a 100 story building. As he passes each floor he shouts in the window to the people... "see, I'm fine. I told you fools I could jump and I would not die".
August 17, 2010 at 7:14 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JohnFielding (John Fielding) says...
.
Well said Sled, but as we who tend plants know you must also prepare the field for sowing, see to the needs of the plants as they grow, and take good care in the reaping to preserve the harvest.
"He who plants a seed performs an act of Faith."
.
August 17, 2010 at 9:11 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jimmmmmm (anonymous) says...
Howard-thank you for the grammar lesson; I'll do my best not to misuse the English language in the future. Where did you get your 75% figure-straight out of your posterior? Am I using the correct 'your'?
Sled-It appears I've struck a nerve. So I'm sounding smug to you? Is that because I have some different opinions? Not really sure what your talking about with Mao or Stalin, but you've obviously been watching your fair share of Glenn Beck. I'm too tired to follow what it is your trying to say. Are we living in a Marxist/Communist society? Maybe according to you, YVB, Seeuski, and Glenn Beck. I'd say we are a full blown capitalistic society, where the most wealthy 1% of our population is making most of our decisions for us. America has become a full blown Plutocracy, and if that's what you think is what is best, I respectfully disagree. Maybe you're part of the wealthiest 1%, and that's the way you want it-maybe not. If your not, then all I can say is wake up.
YVB-Do me a quick favor, please google TARP. Then google American Recovery and Reinvestment Act. For God's sake, I can't even debate with you until you have some idea what the heck your talking about. And I mean that with the utmost respect.
August 17, 2010 at 11:28 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jimmmmmm (anonymous) says...
YVB-
http://stimuluswatch.org/2.0/
Do you honestly think that no jobs have been created or retained from the Stimulus Plan????
Go ahead and spend some time on that site-you can even post your lovely comments about how TARP didn't save any jobs. Go for it.
August 17, 2010 at 11:55 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jimmmmmm (anonymous) says...
Oh, I almost forgot (now pay attention Howard), this hypocrite President is also your President, and he's not cutting taxes while waging a war in the Middle East. Big difference.
August 18, 2010 at 12:38 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
sledneck (anonymous) says...
The 1% do make a lot of decisions. They probably do have too much power in some areas. However, I would argue that, as voters, it is the dumb-masses that have too much power. When you attend a shareholders meeting, at IBM for example, you vote your shares. Someone with 10,000 shares has 10X the say of someone with 1,000 shares. So too should it be at the polls. 1 vote for everyone, 1 additional vote for every $10,000 in taxes paid... or something similar.
The 1% also make most of the jobs, take most of the risk, create most of the products, find the life-saving drugs, etc.
How would it be an improvement if, as under most communist controled governments, that same degree of control were in the hands of 1/10th of 1%????
Leftists often enjoy pointing out the imperfections in a capitalist society, of which there are many, but they rarely acknowledge that as imperfect as it may be it remains far above any alternative they have provided.
Another contrast that leftists rarely acknowledge is that at least in a capitalist society there is a much greater possibility of someone from the "un-washed masses" moving up into that 1% and making some of those decisions. Conversely, in a communist system leaders are chosen, usually for life, based on who they are rather than their intellectual ability to benifit society in some measureable way.
August 18, 2010 at 6:18 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seeuski (anonymous) says...
The answer to Capitalism, which Jimmmmmmmmmmmm rails against, is Fascism.
We had that war and won it, must we do it again here?
Some are afraid it could come to that if the leftists keep pushing forward with the beliefs that they are entitled to the money of others.
And jimmmmmmmmmmm, I assure you I am no where near the top 1% but I would rather be poor in a free market America than an Elite or a regular in a Marxist/Fascist regime.
You should wake up before it's too late.
Stop spending all your time on Olberman or any of those other 24/7 pro Marxist talking points shows and listen to the Economists who have no dog in the fight.
I swear, no matter what the argument on these forums it never fails that the left all sound the same, at least those coming from the right side of things DO have differing views.
Created or saved, what a hoax, up there with the other big scam, AGW.
And one last thing,
In recent weeks we have had Obama and his puppy Biden claim we have turned the corner because of their spending and "the worst is over", even going so far as to have a Summer of Recovery tour. Now Obama is saying we will be in recession for two more years, when do you start to connect the dots and see that he is biding his time in the Cloward and Piven action plan?
Wasting our time arguing over who was worse or more responsible, Bush or Obama, is exactly what they want and that is why Obama keeps up that drumbeat, it's Bush it's Bush.
The hammer falls on ALL of us after November if we don't take back at least the House and stop the bleeding.
August 18, 2010 at 7:33 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mmjPatient22 (another anonymous cannabis user) says...
And now Pelosi wants to "investigate" those that are in opposition to the "ground-zero mosque."
When will this government nightmare end?
http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/w...
August 18, 2010 at 8:34 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
NamVet (anonymous) says...
The CEO of FOX the "Fair and Balanced" Opinion Network just donated $1 million to the Republicans. I'm sure this finally proves that FOX is not biased at all.
August 18, 2010 at 8:43 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jimmmmmm (anonymous) says...
I agree with most of what both of you say. I don't agree with the scare tactics you both use however on a daily basis. We have not turned into a Communist/Marxist nation whatsoever; for example, take a look at who got rich off of TARP, then maybe you'll agree. No, we're still fully Capitalist (leaning towards a Plutocracy, in my opinion), with a POTUS that walked into a mess and has the challenge of cleaning it up. You don't like his agenda, or what he's done to date, so the challenge for you is to find someone that the nations agrees would be a good replacement next election. And if you say Palin, then get ready for 4 more years of Obama-guaranteed. I'll wager with you both on that.
Even the Economists you speak of Seeuski, recommended TARP to avoid total collapse. No one wanted it, but the experts all agreed it was needed. The Stimulus is a whole different argument, and no, I don't like it, but again, there have been many positives to come from it. That was the point of this whole thread, wasn't it? But I guess we'll turn every thread into the same worthless argument.
We disagree on many political fronts, but mostly on your Communist/Marxist schtick. That's it. I can't take the scare tactics. It's total b.s.
As far as the dumb masses making too many decisions-well is it Democracy you have a problem with? Is it the Constitution? Maybe you feel only the top 1%, who you so eloquently state are the only ones worth a damn in this country, should be the only people with a vote. Thought you were the Constitution hawk on this board. I think you may be a Plutocrat! Ha!
The political pendulum is always swinging, and your right, there will be many changes coming, hopefully on both sides of the aisle.
August 18, 2010 at 8:49 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jimmmmmm (anonymous) says...
Sorry Howard-I'm still having trouble with 'your' and 'you're'. Always have.
August 18, 2010 at 9:56 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
pitpoodle (anonymous) says...
You can’t blame Bush and Republicans for everything. Our crash stemmed primarily from questionable mortgage lending practices that allowed people to make purchases without proving their ability to pay back the loans and allowing banks to make these risky loans with little capital to cover losses. Also, the lack of Congressional over-site with Dems in control was a major factor. I realize it's not that simple, but it's close.
The TARP gave authority for emergency spending of $700 billion. Originally, the proposal gave three people the full authority to spend the billions, no questions asked. As I recall, Republicans in Congress said no forcing a House and Senate vote to give spending authority to Congress. Maybe the three people would have made better decisions. We don’t know. Anyway, all of the TARP funds (except Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac and auto bailout $) have been paid back with interest.
The $787 billion stimulus was not a Bush initiative. Rangel and Pelosi put this wealth redistribution package together and it was rubber stamped by a Democrat Congress. The Dems said it was necessary to avoid the next Great Depression and would keep unemployment from reaching 9%. Of course we know that with the Stimulus spending it is 9.5%+ nationally - and climbing now. Consider, if we had not spent $852 billion (with Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac and auto bailouts) perhaps the $ would have been available as capital for private investment to create jobs.
Instead, Obama and company squandered it on paying off unions, and so on, instead of the “shovel ready” projects promised (3% was spent on infrastructure) to create jobs. The Stimulus took away any money available for small business loans. The new Dem spin based on Moody’s Analytics models can’t be trusted. Remember when Moodys’ was rating junk sub-prime loans with AAA rating? Why would anyone trust their econometric models now? Don’t be fooled.
August 18, 2010 at 10:25 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
pitpoodle (anonymous) says...
Sorry, I should have mentioned that the Democrat's new spin re: Stimulus spending is that without the Stimulus things would be much worse than if nothing had been done. We don't know that. They don't know that but are trying to prove it using an econometric model done by Moody's Analytics. Again, don't be fooled.
August 18, 2010 at 10:54 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Scott_Wedel (Scott Wedel) says...
The issue is not whether Bush and the Republicans are responsible for everything. It is that according to many of them that the same stuff that they accepted and even voted for is now socialist communist end of capitalism, end of USA type of issue.
Just like how many Republicans that talk about the evils of big government and the importance of property rights are trying to invent reasons why a private property owner cannot build a mosque a couple blocks away from Ground Zero. They'd be right if they were stopping some government agency from giving land to some religion, but this is private property and that used to mean something to Republicans. If it is sacred ground then have government buy up all property within 3 blocks of Ground Zero and get rid of the liquor stores, strip club and everything else so close to sacred ground.
Do these Republicans have any political principles or have they simply become the opposition party dedicated to fear mongering and religious intolerance? There was a recent time when more college graduates were Republican than Democrats and now the opposite is true. When Silicon Valley, full of engineers and people trying to make money, becomes a Democratic stronghold then the Republican party has lost it's way. And when Mississippi, chronically among the least educated states, is a Republican stronghold, then the Republican party has lost it's way.
August 18, 2010 at 12:50 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
NamVet (anonymous) says...
pitpoodle you are correct in most of what you said except you left out some very important facts. The sub-prime mortgage lending in itself was not the cause of the economic disaster. It was the packaging and selling of these mortgage instruments as credit default swaps etc. as "safe mortgage back securities" by the Investment Banks which just happened to be de-regulated in 2000. Sen. Phil Graham(R-Tx) added on a bill just before he retired ( to go to work for an INVESTMANT BANK) that de-regulated the investment banks and created credit default swaps. Investors did not know that these instruments where leveraged 30 to 1. So when housing prices went south trillions of dollars of these investments went broke and pulled the banks down with them. In came TARP led by Sec. or Tres. Paulson(ex CEO Goldman Sachs) to save them. And billions of dollars of bonuses to the people who created the whole mess where saved. I guess it is ok for gov't money to go to millionaires at the banks but when money goes to the average American it is Socialism. Personally I don't agree with the Stimulus but one thing I totally disagree with is when TARP money was given to the big money Executives with absolutely no strings attached. I believe the CEO's on Wall St. have the most powerful Union in the US thanks to the gifts they dispense on Congress.
You also seem to forget that Bush and the Conservative Congress looked the other way as all this was happening besides adding 5 trillion to the Deficit and increasing gov't spending by 68%. It took them almost 8 years to accomplish this. Obama has only had a year and a half to screw things up. He needs more time to come anywhere close, though I doubt he will be around for a second term. Then the Republicans can come back and finish the job they started. Maybe a couple more wars will be on the horizon like Iran and N. Korea, as long as they don't have to do the fighting or dying or pay or it why should they care. The Defense Industry will love it. $$$
August 18, 2010 at 12:57 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
pitpoodle (anonymous) says...
What stuff did Repubs vote for that is now socialist communist, Scott? I wonder why you always reach for the "fear mongering" language?
August 18, 2010 at 12:59 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jimmmmmm (anonymous) says...
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001...
From a Conservative source.
August 18, 2010 at 2:38 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
pitpoodle (anonymous) says...
Namvet, I appreciate your comments and you are right that this is not a single party issue. In 1999, then President Clinton and the Republican Congress agreed to sweeping deregulation of the US financial system by the passage of the Financial Services Modernization Act of 1999. The legislation did away with nearly all restrictions on banking, insurance and stock trading. The bill had (almost) unanimous bi-partisan support and won on a vote of 90-8. Clinton signed the bill and threatened to veto it, if any substantial changes were made. It had strong support from John Kerry, Chris Dodd and Joe Biden among others. I do not believe any new deregulation laws have come forward since then. Correct me, if I am wrong. As you may recall, Bush called for more oversight of Fannie Mae & Freddie Mac but was told none was needed by Dodd and Schumer. What have I missed?
August 18, 2010 at 2:51 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
NamVet (anonymous) says...
Fannie and Freddie are a mess and added to the economic disaster, they are finally addressing that this week. It was brought about by this notion that ALL Americans should he part of home ownership, the American dream. All politicians of both parties have been behind this for decades. I believe it was 1934 when Freddie was formed. Unfortunately not all people have the ability to take care of a home not just financially..
You are 100% right that Graham's Bill was passed and signed by Clinton. Of course today he said that it was a mistake to do so but that is hind sight. It was good old fashion Wall St. greed that brought the economic system down with these exotic financial instruments that few truly understood. My gripe is that TARP rewarded the Executives at these banks who cause the entire mess (Corporate Welfare) by Paulson insuring millions of bonuses where paid. In other words rewarding failure. But as you know politicians of both parties cater to the big shots so they can get big campaign contributions from people like Rupert Murdock CEO of FOX. I call it Conservative Socialism.
August 18, 2010 at 4:14 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
pitpoodle (anonymous) says...
Yes, it was greed that brought us down and the fact that Congressional oversight was missing altogether. That said, Republicans are not perfect but I am inclined to take my chances of recovery with them, as it appears the Dems don't seem to understand basic business economics. For instance businesses are holding an estimated $1.8 trillion in cash that could be used to expand and employ but businesses are afraid of the new regulatory mind set of this administration and are unwilling to invest. I can't blame them.
August 18, 2010 at 4:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
kielbasa (Matthew Stoddard) says...
pitpoodle- Also, don't forget that Medicare now has Republicans clamoring to save it from Obamacare. Medicare has always been a bane to the Republicans. Also, Dems now want to fund the Afghan War without question, but Republicans wonder how to fund it. That's a reversal from just a couple years ago.
Republicans (and self-proclaimed "Constitutional Conservatives") right now want a mosque not built due to "sensitivity", even though it's fully within their right to build this mosque and it's not even actually on Ground Zero. Heck- one idiot thought it should be left to the courts even though there is no way a case would be brought by any sane person. There is only "sensitivity" as a motive. (Personally, the term Ground Zero usually means a very specific area when mentioned. Somehow, all of Manhattan must now be equated to "Ground Zero," I guess.) How liberal/PC does that sound? I sure don't see them clamoring to help the Greek Orthodox Church that was actually destroyed on 9/11. I've seen one article, but no talking heads representing it's need for being rebuilt.
Both parties flip-flop on issues and both parties become the Party of No when not in the majority. Both parties have crooks. Both parties spend like drunken sailors. We only say it's okay when we personally agree with what they spent it on.
This is why I'm a Moderate: I'd rather see the Afghan War funded over more Unemployment Bennies. I'd like to see Obamacare funded over past funding for the Iraq War. I'd like to see Unemployment Bennies funded over past funding for the Iraq War. (As someone in a long line familial line from the military, Iraq was a mistake & took resources that should have been used in Afghanistan from the start.) I would rather see someone get elected who has a past of working well with others than someone who just votes party-line all the time or someone who's only going to say "No." I would rather raise taxes & cut spending simultaneously to pay down the National Debt instead of just one or the other, which has never worked. Lowering taxes has increased some revenue, but it never goes to paying down the debt. In the last 30yrs since Reagan, only Clinton and a Republican Congress paid down significant portions of the National Debt.
Ask yourself as a private citizen: when you owe a lot of debt, do you cut off all your spending and quit your job, so as to have even less (no) income? No, you curtail extra spending and get a 2nd job to pay down your debt, unless you're insane. I can think of a couple of those right now!
August 18, 2010 at 4:59 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
NamVet (anonymous) says...
I would agree with you except the Republicans when they were in total control made a mess of everything also. When Bush trashed the Deficit Reduction Act that Clinton and Gingrich put together in 1994 he opened the door for massive irresponsible gov't spending that continues today. They always preach smaller gov't, and a balanced budget and when they take over the opposite happens. Business is not only sitting on 1.8 trillion in cash for the reasons you mentioned but also to influence the election(keeping unemployment high) so they can get back on the gravy train with Rep. in charge especially the defense industry. The only difference between Dem and Rep is WHO they spend our money on. Name one Republican Administration that had a balanced budget?
August 18, 2010 at 5:04 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Scott_Wedel (Scott Wedel) says...
Republicans had control of House, Senate and President in 2000 to 2006. How many trillions of spending did they pass without paying for it with offsetting budget cuts or revenues?
But now they'll filibuster anything not fully paid for!
What else other than fearmongering to call this stuff about a mosque near Ground Zero? Gingrich comparing it to Nazis posting at the entrance of a holocaust memorial is absurd and inflammatory. So Islam is comparable to the evils of Nazis? So two blocks becomes two feet? And what about the crazy theories that someone this mosque is part of a plan for Islam to take over Ground Zero?
What else other than fearmongering is this stuff about terrorists having babies in the US so they can train the kid to be a terrorist and use their citizenship to return to the US in 20 years?
August 18, 2010 at 8:15 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JohnFielding (John Fielding) says...
.
yvb you are sure right about that, no one can speak up for the moderate Muslims. In this country they may have hope to do so someday if they get the same protections as the FLDS or the Moonies. It needs to be on someones to do list to arrest those who threaten dissident Muslims, probably already is but they would rather stay out in the cold to try for information on heavier threats.
We are in a war, here and abroad with radical Islam, one they declared and we cannot avoid. We could not appease them or surrender either, even if we wanted to, their agenda is the elimination of free will or Liberty as we know it, they believe it to be of Satan, meant to tempt believers.
The only thing we can do beyond our military and intelligence efforts is to promote religious freedom with all our might, working toward that greatest of goals, of conciliation of beliefs in the light of humanities shared history and future. But the only thing that will make that happen quick would be a landing of space aliens. (Or for them to reveal that they are already here, for all you UFO buffs.).
But if we can't have it quick lets take it any way, keep true to our values, keep our military strong. Plenty of true patriots still in this great Nation, plenty who would and will die for their rights. Their own, their families and even for all those intimidated moderate Muslims who are now their fellow countrymen, longing to breathe free but finding the serpent has followed them here too..
That's the one thing that does not get said enough, "Natures God", who Jefferson attributes our inalienable rights to, only gave them to us at our birth.. For the rest of our lives we have to fight for them to keep them.
It is no different than the Lion and the Zebra, each has the right to Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness, and the Zebra can keep his only as long as he outruns the Lion, who can keep his only as long as he continues to catch and eat Zebras.
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August 18, 2010 at 10:08 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
sledneck (anonymous) says...
For my part I will go on record now.
It was communist BS when clinton did it.
It was communist BS when Bush did it.
It's communist BS now.
I NEVER said that it started with Obama. It most certainly did not.
Instead of debating who started the fire can we first please put the damn thing out!
I oppose communism, marxism, socialism and all other isims, wasims or will be-isms.
Freedom to fly and freedom to fall put this nation ahead of all others.
No man is right, wrong, worthy or unworthy based on his race, religion, gender or wealth. A mans character is his worth.
If we could please wrap our minds around the principles that ML King Jr espoused (content of character) and stop defending or damning people based on their political proximity to our favorite cause then, and only then, we could move this nation out of the control of crooked politicians (on all sides) and return it to its rightful owners... the people, of all races creeds and colors who pay the bills, dig the ditches, carry the loads and make it work.
THAT is the dream I share with Dr. King and every other American who says the same.
If we don't summon the character among ourselves to make our communities work WITHOUT the corrupt government, and I mean soon, all is lost. There will be no solar or wind power. There will be no stock market. There will be no fossil fuels, no alternative fuels, no recycling, no smart grid, no dumb grid no paved roads no internet, no outer net.
None of the things you love and none of the things you hate will exist. Unless you're fond of fammon, want, poverty, disease and war.
Waco up America!
August 18, 2010 at 11:58 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
NamVet (anonymous) says...
Tim McVeigh was a Christian, he blew up the Federal building in Oklahoma City killing hundreds of innocent men, women and children. Adolf Hitler was a Christian who killed millions. Do you classify all Christians as radical or Nazi Christians? In any group you have 5 % idiots and extremists and the God they worship makes little difference. More people are gunned down in the US each year than all of the Western Civilized Countries of the world added together. And we are a Christian country?
August 19, 2010 at 8:37 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JohnFielding (John Fielding) says...
.
" At what point then is the approach of danger to be expected? I answer, if it ever reach us, it must spring up amongst us. It cannot come from abroad. If destruction be our lot, we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen, we must live through all time, or die by suicide"....
..."By what means shall we fortify against it?"...
..."Passion has helped us; but can do so no more. It will in future be our enemy. Reason, cold, calculating, unimpassioned reason, must furnish all the materials for our future support and defense. Let those materials be molded into general intelligence, sound morality and, in particular, a reverence for the constitution and laws; and, that we improved to the last; that we remained free to the last..."
Abraham Lincoln
January 27, 1838
Address to the Young Men’s Lyceum of Springfield, Illinois
.
August 19, 2010 at 10:22 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
MrTaiChi (anonymous) says...
some random thoughts:
fear mongering- bad when conservatives do it, good when liberals do it; e.g.: Bad to worry that uncontrolled immigration undermines the rule of law in our culture; Bad to suggest that there is something in Islam that is dangerous to our way of life. Good to fear that the Patriot Act allowed computer crawls of overseas phone conversations searching for words commonly used by terroists, but heaven forfend, also allowed the government to listen in when you used the word "bomb" in your converstaion to Israel, for instance; Good to spread fear that global warming is destroying the planet. Ah! but you say there is historical proof that government snooping knows no bounds and that the overwhelming evidence is that global warming is real. But, historically this country has fudged absolute constitutional rights during times of war and national threat and abandoned those actions when the threat ended. Politicians and judges at the highest levels know that the Constitution was never intended to be a suicide pact. There is still active debate about whether our efforts to control carbon emissions will stop global warming and how bad it will become whatever we do. There is no debate that the Muslim holy scriptures authorize and in many cases compel violence and aggression to spread the faith. That sounds like pretty solid evidence to make a reasonable man fearful. Those who are self deluded and project good-will in the face of facts can't be helped. there is a name for such people. Warning people to fearful is not the same as fear mongering.
But the debate about the cultural center and mosque near Ground Zero has not been framed as against Islam or the right to construct a mosque. It is about whether it is provacative to build it there. Today even Howlin' Howard Dean came out against it, fear monger that he is.
August 19, 2010 at 12:53 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seeuski (anonymous) says...
Where is Namvet getting his info on the faith of Hitler and McVeigh?
Hitler worked together with Muslims in the destruction of Jews and Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols met with the Ramsey Youseph terror cell in the Philippines where they learned to make the bomb that killed and maimed Americans in OK city.
Ever hear of John Doe #2?
The evidence is available my dear sir if you care to seek it or shall I for you?
What is it with the left and the stock answer that "Christian terrorists are just as bad"?
Propaganda at it's worst for sure.
And one last thing, every Muslim terrorist attack is blessed by the Imam from the particular terrorists Mosques, how do people equate Hitler with Christianity?
There is evidence otherwise.
And I am NOT a Christian.
August 19, 2010 at 1:06 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
MrTaiChi (anonymous) says...
@Vet
Thanks for your service.
America is not a Christian country. No lesser an authority than George Washington pronounced that when he was president.
If Tim McVeigh was a Christian, he was a damned poor one. I guess it would have been more useful for the left to have him make a blubbering confession of how he was led astray by right wing radio, specifically Rush Limbaugh, which caused him to murder those innocent women childeren and unfortunate men. He didn't. As far as I know he told no one what his motivations were. We can know one thing though, He didn't get his instruction from the New Testament.
What you don't understand is that it isn't 5% of Islam. The term "Islamic extremists" is a PC way of characterizing these actors as outside the mainstream of thier faith, when in fact the truest label would be "Islamic literalists" The Islamic holy writings are an absolute justifiction for those who commit acts of terrorism to advance or defend the faith. We hear that the vast majority of Muslims follow the 'peaceful' version of Islam, but where are they? The couple arrested this week in Alaska for compiling a hit list were recent converts to the faith. How do you become a jihadi in the wilds of Alaska unless you are harkening to instruction of the holy scriptures of that faith? When the 'peaceful' Muslims are asked, they will not repudiate the teaching of their scriptures that converts to other religions are to be killed, that men are to subjugate and scourge their women if they disobey, that Islam is the one true religion and that a true Muslim should not befriend non-believers or treat other faiths as equally due respect. The list is frightenly endless. There are secular Muslims and adherents of all levels of devotion, just like other faiths. How they are different is in the way they treat those who question the faith. There is no tolerance for apostacy, at all. Yes we have much to understand about Islam. The primary question to be answered is, "If Islam is a religion of peace, why do so many Muslims seem to misunderstand that, and go on murderous rampages?"
August 19, 2010 at 1:21 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seeuski (anonymous) says...
A new flotilla is scheduled to depart from Lebanon on Sunday and head to the poor people of Gaza with supposed aid.
Here is a recent video proving how bad it is in Gaza and see how the Children in the end show what they are taught about their religion of Peace.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCRJrd...
August 19, 2010 at 2:27 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seeuski (anonymous) says...
Sorry for the historical records that were kept and of the history being made but it needs to be told.
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/at...
August 19, 2010 at 2:30 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seeuski (anonymous) says...
Can this video of the stoning death of a young Muslim woman bring all of us to tears.
I would hope so.
http://schnellmann.org/Islamic_Stonin...
Can the words of a former PLO member educate us in these matters, I would hope so.
http://shoebat.com/
August 19, 2010 at 2:56 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
sledneck (anonymous) says...
NamVet,
"Do men gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles... a good tree can not bring forth evil fruit neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down and cast into the fire."
How you know that Hitler and McVeigh were christians is beyond me. The quote above is why I suspect they were not.
Regarding people being gunned down... Would you feel any better if they were pushed out of windows instead?
August 19, 2010 at 5:46 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
NamVet (anonymous) says...
Just for the record both Hitler and McVeigh were Catholic. McVeigh was a Republican and a member of the NRA. That are the facts. Neither was Muslim nor were they Jewish.
August 19, 2010 at 7:04 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
sledneck (anonymous) says...
"Not everyone who says to me Lord Lord shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he that doeth the will of my Father only".
If you think every Catholic, Baptist or otherwise is a christian think again. I can name many horrible things done by PROFESSING christians just as I can name many treasonous things done by PROFESSING patriots.
August 19, 2010 at 7:22 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JohnFielding (John Fielding) says...
.
It is a terrible shame that one's relationship with the Almighty creates such a source of conflict with one's fellow creatures. It is also the spring of so much joy in our lives that it should be celebrated in all its diversity. We should only hold glad tidings for those who have found a way to have a connection with creation whatever form that connection takes.
Can it be that there is no wrong way to worship, to express reverence, as long as it is not harmful to others? I think of the very worst example I can, of the Mayans ripping out living human hearts and wonder if that practice was superimposed by a warlike society on a religion that previously had a basis in respect for creation.
I believe a Christian is anyone who has respect for the teachings of Jesus, who would use them to improve their lives. I know a great many insist it is more than that, know in some detail of the scriptural basis for several different sects contention that only those who covenant by that credo are True. Even the Church I am active in would have to expel me or forgive me for my heresy if anyone wished to enforce it.
By my lights one can seek enlightenment from all of the great religions, philosophers, and scientists, and consider oneself a disciple of Christ and Buddha and Confucius, and Mohammad, and the Greeks, and the Norse, and the Druids, and the Earth Mother, and of Newton, and Darwin, and Einstein, and admire them all for what they have done to elevate the human condition, and forgive what they or more likely their zealous followers have done to degrade it.
It comes together with the recognition that there is far more to be learned than has yet been revealed, that the "rhymes of the universe" resonate all around us as we slowly begin to recognize them for what they are.
However if any declare that you ought to be killed for disagreeing with them they are wrong and must be resisted. Christianity went through this for several centuries, we all know something of the Inquisition, the Crusades, the destruction of heathen temples, the Salem witch trials, the Protestant v Catholic wars. Fortunately Christians today have mostly moved on from that phase, Maybe Islam will eventually as well, but not as long as they take their scriptures literally. Maybe that is why so many Christians have, they recognize the Truths are figurative, and why much of the remaining intolerance centers around those who insist on literalism in scripture.
In my prayers I try to ask for little, be thankful for much. When I do ask, it is most often for enlightenment for all my brothers and sisters, that we may yet fulfill our incredible potential in this amazing universe.
Amen.
.
August 19, 2010 at 10:28 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JohnFielding (John Fielding) says...
.
"Men are not flattered by being shown that there has been a difference of purpose between the Almighty and them"
Abraham Lincoln, regarding his second inaugural address
letter to Thurlow Weed March 15 1865
http://www.answers.com/topic/second-i...
Oh, East is East, and West is West, and never the two shall meet,
Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God’s great Judgment Seat;
But there is neither East nor West, Border, nor Breed, nor Birth,
When two strong men stand face to face, tho’ they come from the ends of the earth.
Rudyard Kipling, The Ballad of East and West
.
August 19, 2010 at 11:33 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seeuski (anonymous) says...
I feel bad for NamVet having to travel this mortal existence cheating himself from truth and reality.
I am just very grateful that the majority of Americans are awakening to the truth and opening their eyes to what we are ALL facing together, whether it be the extreme distastefulness of the Ground Zero Mosque or the "fundamental transformation" of America from a Constitutional Republic to a Democratic Socialist regime.
Pay attention to the latest CBO statements on the Obamacare realities and costs.
Pay attention to what will soon be happening to all of our premiums. We were promised the opposite, just like the failed stimulus/spread the wealth program and the cap of unemployment at 8%. Created and saved, words for the sheep.
August 20, 2010 at 7:47 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
MrTaiChi (anonymous) says...
@ Vet
Thanks again for your service.
If McVeigh and Hitler were raised as Christians, because they became traitors to the teachings of their faith proves nothing except the flawed nature of man.
Lenin, Stalin and Mao combined to starve or murder 250,000,000 people. these guys were paragons of communism. By your logic, the left should have been embarrassed when the McCarthy era and HUAC associated Hollywood communists with world-wide communism. They weren't. Instead, the lesson of history learned in our schools is that the investigation was (fill in the blank), anti-Semitic, fascist, reckless and free swinging, un-American as punishing freedom of belief, association or expression.
I hope that you are fully ambulatory, as otherwise I would be deeply ashamed to say this, but you otherwise don't have a leg to stand on in any political theory to associate Christian scripture with the crimes of an individual who was born into that faith. As I indicated above, Islam has a roadmap in its holy scriptures for world conquest and killing of those who stand in its way. That's a difference that can't be overlooked.
The Taliban are Islamic literalists. If you want to understand Islam without the veil, look to A-stan under their administration: no music, no kite flying, and as Ayatollah Khomeini said, "In Islam there is no fun", and there was none there unless one enjoyed public executions and stoning of women for adultery after they complained of rape and were unable to produce the Koran's required four witnesses to prove it.
We fought and resisted the Nazis and the Communists because their ideologies were inconsistent with ours. If one is offended by Newt Gingrich's association of Islam with Nazis in the same sentence, then one should answer the question, "What is the substantive difference?" The hard thing is finding wisdom how to co-exist with a religion that is, to use a modern analogy, like the Borg of Star Trek.
August 20, 2010 at 8:56 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
housepoor (anonymous) says...
Truth and Reality
30% of republicans think the President is a muslim, i would guess it's even higher with the tea party
August 20, 2010 at 9:02 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
kielbasa (Matthew Stoddard) says...
Seeuski now wants to be a Liberal by telling the Muslim community it's not very PC to build a mosque on Ground Zero. Great! They aren't building it on Ground Zero but a few blocks away! Problem solved very easily.
Right after the mosque sentence, Seeuski then goes on to say some crap about how the USA is transforming "from a Constitutional Republic to a Democratic Socialist regime." And Seeuski is the one wanting to deny the Constitional rights of the Muslim faith to build a church legally...because it might make people sad. I don't remember that part in the Constitution. Can you point it out for us all or are you too busy thinking Obama is Muslim and not born in Hawaii? I think the Conextremists are the ones Americans should be afraid off; not Muslims.
Then again, this is the person who said the Constitution can't be changed and then admits it can 1 sentence later.
August 20, 2010 at 10 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jimmmmmm (anonymous) says...
Ha! Way to go Seeuski! I knew you couldn't go a full day without pushing the Socialist tactic again.
You don't like fundamentally changing America-so how else are we supposed to fix the mess. Even if it was up to you, there would have to be fundamental change.
Do you rail your plumber for coming over to your house to fix a leaky pipe?
August 20, 2010 at 11:04 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
housepoor (anonymous) says...
http://www.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/08/20...
August 20, 2010 at 8:19 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Scott_Wedel (Scott Wedel) says...
There is nothing in Christian teaching to explain Nazis killing Jews?!? How many hundreds of years did it take for the Catholic Church to stop teaching that Jews killed Jesus?
August 21, 2010 at 2:32 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
kielbasa (Matthew Stoddard) says...
I remember something about an Inquisition way back when...of course it went better to Mel Brooks and cast singing, "Will you convert?" "No, no, NOOOO, no!"
August 21, 2010 at 8:11 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mmjPatient22 (another anonymous cannabis user) says...
Here's an absolutely horrifying break-down on our current economic status and possible near-future realities that await our once great nation. I hope you're all ready for what's on the way.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eb1n1X...
August 22, 2010 at 9:46 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seeuski (anonymous) says...
mmj,
Thanks for the vid, can't agree more. The advice at the end is how I have been living and spending for years. I seek non-union non corporate sources for goods and always look for the made in the USA labels, which are now nearly non-existent.
Good stuff.
August 23, 2010 at 9:52 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seeuski (anonymous) says...
And another thing, this very thing is what got the Tea Party movement started, we may have been asleep for decades while busy in our lives but we have awoken and don't rely on the MSM for the truth. Although Rick Santelli had it right.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zp-Jw-...
August 23, 2010 at 10:04 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seeuski (anonymous) says...
Build it and they will come:
"Imam Rauf's Muslim Brotherhood Roads to Malaysia"
http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/...
What is their stated goals? Taken from a court document.
"4- Understanding the role of the Muslim Brother in North America:
The process of settlement is a "Civilization-Jihadist Process" with all the word means. The Ikhwan must understand that their work in America is a kind of grand Jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within and "sabotaging" its miserable house by their hands and the hands of the believers so that it is eliminated and God's religion is made victorious over all other religions."
http://www.homelandsecurityus.com/PDF...
No Mosque at Ground Zero.
August 23, 2010 at 11:45 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Scott_Wedel (Scott Wedel) says...
I wish you could make up your mind.
Is it no mosques within two blocks of Ground Zero? And so you agree with the proposal to give them gov't land to have a mosque further away.
Is it no mosques by these people anywhere?
You do know that this guy that you claim is such a villain traveled around the world with the Bush admin state dept as an example of a good Muslim working and doing well in America?
With the largest shareholder in Fox Corp outside of the Murdoch family being a Saudi with guilt by association ties to terrorists then obviously Fox News is a propaganda tool of Bin Laden which explains why they are trying to destroy freedom of religion in the USA and create a Holy War between the West and Islam of which Seesuki is unwittingly aiding and abetting.
August 23, 2010 at 12:16 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seeuski (anonymous) says...
Scott,
While I have great respect for a lot of what you post on other subjects, you are clueless on this one.
Spend some time perusing the info on this Imam and then read this document taken from our own homeland security website and you decide for yourself what this group is up to and their motives.
And for the record, I am aware of the Saudi investment recently in the parent company of FOX and have seen sensitivity in their reporting on some issues related to Muslim causes, for instance just this morning they reported the crowd size at the Mosque protest this weekend at 500 to 150 for those at the counter rally. Photos at other websites prove that the crowd protesting the Mosque was much larger by at least double.
I am also aware of the fact that Bush was extending an olive branch to the Muslim worldwide community and that recent reports of this Imam being sent to help that cause by Bush did occur. Bush however never promoted a Mosque or any other religious institution by making a statement like Obama did last Friday at the Iftar dinner.
If you are so naive to believe that FOX news is behind this anti Mosque movement then you should question your own choices in information as there is a problem there.
Scroll down to the english and read this historical evidence of the motives behind this and most other post 1991 Mosques. I didn't get this from FOX just so you know.
http://www.homelandsecurityus.com/PDF...
His own words: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awISCK...
If you decide not to read this document or the other evidence I posted then what is the point in arguing any further?
You will remain in a flawed state of truth and we will waste each others time.
If you read this info and still approve of the Mosque then we just have a fundamentally different view of this situation.
I hope you look into it instead of blaming FOX and Tea Partiers or any of the other scapegoats the left wing frequently sites.
August 23, 2010 at 12:52 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
trump_suit (anonymous) says...
So its OK to violate the constitution if we don't like your message?
Or, are you arguing that Islam is not a religion.
I don;t see how this can be really supported or prevented. This whole mosque issue looks to be one of those constitutional issues that protects an expression or freedom that most people disagree with. Examples might be KKK marches or Flag burning.
August 23, 2010 at 1:18 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seeuski (anonymous) says...
Who is violating the Constitution? I have the Constitutional right to protest this Mosque.
I would also argue that Obama stepped right up to the Constitutional line when he voiced his support for THAT Mosque at THAT location last Friday.
The separation of Church and State.
This issue is too deep for those who argue from a lack of knowledge on who is behind this Mosque.
Thankfully the vast majority of Americans are looking at those facts and are against this Mosque going in that location.
There are plenty of radical Mosques all over this Country that are Constitutionally protected rightfully so, I just don't have to like it.
And no, I am not arguing that Islam is not a religion.
I would argue though that Islam is not a religion of peace.
August 23, 2010 at 1:33 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Scott_Wedel (Scott Wedel) says...
Seesuki,
A link to fox news would be more credible to links to homelandsecurityus.com which is not related to the US gov't, but instead is a home to crackpot theories such as the Oklahoma City bombing was directly linked to 9/11 and so on.
Fox News may be slanted to their readers, but their news dept is not a total joke like world news daily or that homelandsecurityus.com site.
Well, a critic of Christianity can certainly that Christianity is not a religion of peace. Certainly too many wars between Christian nations to argue that Christianity provides any impediment to going to war.
August 23, 2010 at 8:05 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seeuski (anonymous) says...
Case closed. What a sorry response. That document that you did not read was from the Holyland Foundation court case and is trial evidence.
FOX FOX FOX FOX FOX FOX FOX.
Grow up already.
You got nothing.
Here is a video of what your side does when confronted. Violence, bigotry and worse.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qlgyw0...
Those terrible Zionist Jews living in Israel, they are to blame.
August 23, 2010 at 8:36 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seeuski (anonymous) says...
And what do you think you know about the OK City bombing? Assuredly not much, like you just indicated above with your denial of court evidence.
Go and condemn Jayna Davis in her investigative reporting when this all occured way before Bush. What would be her reason for anything other than the truth?
http://jaynadavis.com/
As you can tell I am disappointed in your unreasonable decision to excuse facts and continue on with stupid rhetoric, so we are done here.
Goodnight and keep dreaming on your boat ride down the river d'nile.
August 23, 2010 at 8:44 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Scott_Wedel (Scott Wedel) says...
You are telling me I have to seriously consider "The Third Terrorist", a book that claims an Islamic terrorist was involved with McVeigh on the Oklahoma City bombings in order to be reasonable and be considerable of the facts?
If you believe stuff like that then why don't you believe the major investor in Fox Newscorp is also a terrorist supporter? And what about the consequences of that? Stop watching Fox News until they buy him out?
August 23, 2010 at 9:31 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
boater1 (anonymous) says...
what a timely shrill of a op-ed from mr akin considering the karl roveathon happeing this weekend. i'm sure plenty of local will be attending, meaning those nice average local folks from the sanctuary, dakota ridge, storm mtn., catamount etc.
you know those little cabins in the woods.
they talk about cutting taxes for their kind and all the trickle down effect for the rest of us.
(not my original words) you know that trickle down effect...the rich pissing on the poor.
what a BSathon of talk for the sole purpose of getting all of mine and screw the rest of you and the world you live in. yuck. these people are sick.
August 24, 2010 at 12:57 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seeuski (anonymous) says...
Scott, you have proven here that you are close minded and only except that which supports your ideological positions. So no, don't consider the book written by the woman who was on scene at that bombing and just doing her job as an investigative reporter for KFOR TV and interviewed eye witnesses who saw the foreigner get out of the van with McVeigh seconds before it exploded. Or the facts that the book bring to light that Nichols met with the Ramsey Yousef gang in the Philippines days before the bombing. Or the fact that Hussein Al Husseini sued Jayna Davis for libel and lost, TWICE, with the Judge saying that the evidence was damning that Husseini was a co/conspirator. Or the fact that the US Military upon capturing a terrorist camp in the early days of the Afghan war found a bomb making manual that was the exact prescription for, and named the Oklahoma Bomb.
One thing I have always prayed for is that when we die we receive the answers to all of our struggles, the truth, it saddens me that people like you hold your nose in contempt for what may be.
I just cringe that we have people in places of power that do these same things and that harms this Country in the long run. The same players who were connected to the 1993 WTC bombing and the OK City bombing and the Kobhar Towers and the Cole were responsible for 9/11.
Resist as you will but your beliefs don't matter in the struggle for truth.
Just like your dislike with the source of that court evidence of the Muslim Brotherhood, the evidence is truth that you dismiss.
Sad.
August 24, 2010 at 7:42 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Scott_Wedel (Scott Wedel) says...
Okay, so you believe that conspiracy.
Why not believe the terrorist links of the largest stockholder outside of the Murdoch family in Fox Newscorp?
And as brilliantly funny shown on The Daily Show last night, it is amazing that Fox News shows are ripping into him as the terrorist linked source of money for the mosque near Ground Zero but somehow neglected to mention his name every single time. So are those people at Fox News that stupid or that evil?
Those links are more direct than the theory that there was an Islamic third terrorist in the Oklahoma City bombing.
August 24, 2010 at 9:21 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
NamVet (anonymous) says...
Scott you hit the nail on the head. They want you to now believe McVeigh was a secret Muslim Terrorist not what he actually was. An angry anti-government activist who wanted to avenge Waco.
Guilt by association was used by Sen. McCarthy(R-WI) during the 50's when there was a Communist under every rock. Today we have a Muslim Terrorist under every rock. It is all about FEAR in order to control people and how they think and in turn vote. The previous Administration used fear to accomplish their agenda which turned out to be a total disaster for our country and Iraq.
What I find interesting is that with all this controversy about the Muslim Community Center the main contributor to this project is Saudi Prince Al-Waleed who just happens to be the main investor in CEO Rupert Murdock's FOX also. Murdock just donated $! million to the Republicans. Using the guilt by association theory that would make FOX and the Republican Party a partner of Saudi Arabia. Then when you add in that BinLaden and the 19 criminals of 9/11 where Saudi citizens it makes you wonder why the Bush Administration did everything to protect the Kingdom after 9/11. The first flights out of the US after 9/11 where private jets carrying the BinLaden family and Royal family members. Yet the US invaded Iraq a country that had absolutely nothing to do with 9/11 not Saudi Arabia where the people who attacked us where actually from. Dick Cheney after he left office finally admitted Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11.
On the day Obama was sworn in as President Rush Limbaugh declared that all must be done to make Obama fail. The Republicans with the help of FOX have done just that. They want the economy and unemployment to remain terrible so they can retake the gov't in 2012 to resume what they started in 2001 under the Bush Administration and their partners.
August 24, 2010 at 10:28 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Scott_Wedel (Scott Wedel) says...
NamVet,
As for Fox News, I would note that their ratings are better when the Democrats are in office. And it would appear that a lesson from England is that their Fox News did not lead to a short time in power for Labor, but led to splits in the Conservative Party. And when the Conservatives finally won, they still had to share power with a third party. Thus, they still have not come close to following the sort of policies espoused daily on Murdoch's media outlets.
August 24, 2010 at 11:09 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
sledneck (anonymous) says...
Obama's failures are his and his alone. His party controls the entire government. Some want to see him fly. Others want to see him fall. Thats no different than other administrations.
Fox is one of many networks. Most of the others, the large majority, are sympathetic to Obama. Your real resentment is that so many Americans excercise their mind and chose to watch Fox because they agree with Fox's assesment.
Regarding the "previous administrations" use of fear I think an intellectually honest assesment is that ALL modern administrations have used fear INCLUDING the current one.
Your eyes see what your heart wishes.
Some time reading David Horrowitz, whose parents were card carrying communists, will show you that there WAS a communist under many rocks. A comparison of their then stated goals with our current national condition shows any honest person their goals are being realized.
August 24, 2010 at 12:59 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jimmmmmm (anonymous) says...
This should be required viewing for all ClusterFox News lovers. Thank you Scott & NamVet for the heads up.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08...
Don't be afraid. You may even turn your frown upside down.
August 24, 2010 at 1:36 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
sledneck (anonymous) says...
The Constitution should be required for anyone who uses the term "ClusterFox" or references the Huffington Post.
August 24, 2010 at 7:07 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seeuski (anonymous) says...
I feel sorry for you people, you have no clue what is going on unless John Stewart jokes about it.
Mickey Mouse, Donald Duck:
Who's the leader of the club
That's made for you and me
M-I-C-K-E-Y M-O-U-S-E
Hey! there, Hi! there, Ho! there
You're as welcome as can be
M-I-C-K-E-Y M-O-U-S-E
Why am I arguing with idiots?
Forever let us hold our banner
High! High! High! High!
Come along and sing a song
And join the jamboree!
M-I-C-K-E-Y M-O-U-S-E
Mickey Mouse club
We'll have fun
We'll be new faces
High! High! High! High!
We'll do things and
We'll go places
All around the world
We'll go marching
In lockstep with Soros
We think as one
So don't bore us
with facts and truth
Wacky Waco hey what you know
Only what they tell me So?
August 24, 2010 at 8:36 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
kielbasa (Matthew Stoddard) says...
Just because Stewart jokes about it doesn't mean it isn't so. A simple search will bear the same results.
August 24, 2010 at 9:02 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seeuski (anonymous) says...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ib9rof...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gARvwz...
I think the news of today is nothing to laugh at. Awesome though, laugh and google search it for backup of ones own ideology.
Genius.
Google search the Koran or the truth about what is going on with those behind that Mosque, or any of the other subjects commonly argued about here.
Seems I have been pilloried for doing that very thing by you and others in previous postings.
Good for the goose now, huh?
August 25, 2010 at 9:09 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
kielbasa (Matthew Stoddard) says...
I have Googled it. Unfortunately, I guess you didn't or you'd be posting up a storm about it. These 1st two links confirm that Prince Al Walid bin Talal is a major stockholder in NewsCorp, owned by Rupert Murdoch, which owns FOXNews.
Here's a link from your own precious World Weekly News...oops! Word Net Daily. It says the prince was very instrumental in how things were done for FOXNews:
http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=117853
Now, here's one from a more creditable source that just confirms ties:
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireSt...
Here's how I searched in Google- murdoch newscorp saudi. Notice that FOXNews has no link to any of this in the first 2 pages of the search:
Now on to the mosque. This is the story a few days before Stewart got to it on his show.
http://mediamatters.org/blog/20100819...
For that one I Googled- mosque al Walid bin Talal. Notice again on the 1st two search pages that a certain cable news organization still has no story on this. Amazing that FOX isn't reporting on it, since they are the highest rated cable news channel, right?
"Pilloried." Uh-oh! Someone's using a dictionary!! No, you get pilloried for providing links to stuff that usually has nothing to do with anything you say or just the opposite of what you say. Those links are usually just some other conspiracy-idiot's opinions in a rant, having nothing to do with facts or any nature.
So what "ideology" did we cherry-pick? Are you telling me that this Saudi prince is NOT the 2nd largest shareholder for NewsCorp and that he is not the same Saudi prince by the same name who is helping fund the very mosque that has your panties in a bunch? Show me where any of this is disputed by a reputable source.
So if you're looking for goosing goodness, you've come to the wrong guy.
On the note that this thread is about, Rasmussen has a mixed poll:
38% say the Stimulus helped, 36% say it didn't.
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/publi...
August 25, 2010 at 10:38 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seeuski (anonymous) says...
What a tool! I stated in an earlier post that I was aware of the Saudi's ownership interest and that I felt some softness of reporting on Muslim issues from FOX.
But as usual you are lying and smearing or ignoring facts.
And quoting mediamatters? Joke. One of the biggest left wing Soros mechanisms available next to factcheck.
ABC being credible in YOUR view just adds on to the proof that you are a closet Liberal.
And not quite sure why the Mosque issue and FOX news is being combined as if a Saudi owning 7% of the stock of News Corp effects the reasons for the majority of Americans voicing their concerns for the location of this victory Mosque.
So until you receive your comedic news update this evening I'll go enjoy the weather.
Oh, as for the stimulus, is it your contention that it helped?
Created or saved, beautiful.
August 25, 2010 at 11:27 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seeuski (anonymous) says...
One more thought, the Saudi investment in Murdoch's company falls right in line with the Muslim Brotherhood's goals as stated in their own manifesto that was evidence in the court case against the Holyland Foundation and which I posted earlier.
I do assume though that it did not interest you and that you did not read it so you won't know what I am talking about in saying "their stated goals".
But it is plain as day.
August 25, 2010 at 11:33 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
kielbasa (Matthew Stoddard) says...
Seeuski- show us the exact post where you "stated in an earlier post that I was aware of the Saudi's ownership interest and that I felt some softness of reporting on Muslim issues from FOX." Show us the exact thread, date and time.
MediaMatters and everyone but FOX reported this stuff. I just took the one at the top that time. Again- who cares if it's Soros or not? It's a well known fact that can't be disputed.
Your own WND is the one that actually talked about how the Prince was able to dictate news coverage. It was first Pelosi saying the money should be followed by anyone against the mosque being built. Then, it was Conextremists that then said the money should be followed to whomever is funding the mosque being built. Well, the two seem to go hand in hand- the Saudi prince is on both sides of the issue thanks to his ties to FOX and Murdoch.
The problem is that FOX was talking about how evil the funding is for the mosque without ever mentioning who this evil was. Well, the evil was one of their bosses.
The only thing plain as day around here is that you want to forego the constitutional Separation of Church and State by playing the "sensitivity" card and nothing more. It's very PC and liberal to go that route.
And yes- I believe that without the stimulus, Unemployment nationally would have been as high as 12%, as most economists had predicted. The WH said not over 8% and it was wrong, as I thought they would be.
So- prove to me that the stimulus didn't keep unemployment from reaching 12%. All I have to say is...we didn't hit 12%. Prove it wrong.
August 25, 2010 at 12:20 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jimmmmmm (anonymous) says...
Would you prefer FixedNews Sled? How 'bout Feaux News? I've read the constitution-many times. What's your point?
August 25, 2010 at 1:11 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
kielbasa (Matthew Stoddard) says...
As for the Muslim Brotherhood's goals, sounds almost like Catholic or Mormon missionary work- send "God" to a place where the pagans don't worship Him. "Spreading the Word of God," I believe is how it gets termed. They don't frighten me any more than Islam.
August 25, 2010 at 1:48 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seeuski (anonymous) says...
Here you go lazy. August 23, 2010 at 12:52 p.m
Please spare me with your self proselytizing on what you really predicted about the future of the unemployment rate and the phony, created and saved, joke of a measure.
What is the actual unemployment rate including those no longer receiving benefits or looking for work anymore, along with the underemployed which would include people on commission pay? Any idea?
Also it is painful reading your continued reasoning on all things FOX News, as if they control the World.
Broaden your horizons and use google for other more meaningful journeys into the land of information, not just as a tool for the purpose of getting little ole seeuski and FOX.
What you know and what you think you know is a lot different from that which you don't know what you don't know.
And with you that certainly is a lot.
Try reading the Muslim Brotherhood manifesto I put on here and see where that leads ya or would you just rather claim it's FOX starting this Islamiphobia since a Saudi owns 7% of the News Corp stock? Makes a lot of sense, duh.
Seems to me that FOX would cover the issue on the side of the Mosque, wouldn't it?
And are you really saying you support Pelosi's threat against anyone against that Mosques location? Are you willing to see average Americans rounded up for protesting? Is that what you are saying here?
Do you not see the danger in those suggestions from that sick woman?
If not then we are headed for trouble in this Country as a free people, God forbid.
August 25, 2010 at 2:22 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seeuski (anonymous) says...
Having just seen your comparison with the Muslim Brotherhood to other faiths "Spreading the Word of God," pretty much sums it up for me.
You, and those who think like you, are the reason we were asleep at the wheel during the attacks on our soil starting in 1993 and leading up to 9/11.
As you say, "As for the Muslim Brotherhood's goals, sounds almost like Catholic or Mormon missionary work"
I would say your statement frightens me more than the Muslim Brotherhood as they at least are honest in their objectives and goals and the means in which they seek to attain them. By integration and then force through peaceful and if necessary non peaceful Jihad.
But as you say "They don't frighten me any more than Islam".
Accept Allah or off with your head, It happens daily you silly little Infidel.
August 25, 2010 at 2:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
kielbasa (Matthew Stoddard) says...
All you did was acknowledge you knew about it. Nowhere in your post did you mention anything about "underreporting" or reporting of any kind except that you have seen their "sensitivity" in their reporting. What reporting? Where has FOX actually acknowledged the Saudi Prince is the 2nd largest shareholder in their parent company? It ain't there, same as your claim. So tell us again where you admonished FOX for underreporting? Also- for someone who only reads WND or Sarah Palin tweets, I'd watch who you tell to have their horizons broadened. (Be happy! She got a winner last night with McCain!! Too bad the TP wanted Hayworth. Which one did you want since you "identify" with both? Or did you want both of them??
FOX isn't behind the hysteria...they are just hiding their ties to it by never even mentioning Al Walid's name. And no- FOX would never take the side of the mosque because as we also just found out, they contribute solely to the RNC, which has now shilled out to the "Tea Party Caucus" so TP'ers can now "spread the wealth" of public funds to themselves per Michelle Bachmann.
Where did I say I support Pelosi? Point that one out, too. I said that Pelosi started a "let's follow the money" and idiots like you and FOX shills said the same thing about who's funding the mosque. And Pelosi is no more sick than you, for whatever you want to take that at. You are both at the extreme ends of the political spectrum, just the opposite ones. You are both ready for the institution.
So, it still comes down to it: NewsCorp's Murdoch & Al Walid are funding this "terrorist mosque", and FOX is guilty through association. You say I'm not as smart as I think I am, so prove it wrong or stay the lying fraud that you always will be.
August 25, 2010 at 3:02 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
kielbasa (Matthew Stoddard) says...
How many Muslims have personally threatened you? How many Catholics or Mormons or Satanists or Jews have personally threatened you?
As for the Muslim Brotherhood manifesto, never read it. It means nothing to me. I'm not a frightened little rabbit like you seem to be. I don't jump at shadows. I don't look for the conspiracy behind the smallest thing. I don't let where someone's birth certificate is or where they did their Nat Guard duty or what sexual favor they got from whomever. Those are the things that interest people such as you because they won't admit when things are going just fine for them because they MUST complain about the opposition. It's what you do: be angry all the time because it's the only thing you know. You don't know how to evolve...adapt to a given situation. You only know how to cry when you can't overcome.
So, lying about things, making up "facts", posting links to things that have nothing to do with what you say- it's all you know how to be. People like you scare me more than any terrorist. A terrorist is just a coward. I would say you one-up that with being a liar on top of it.
August 25, 2010 at 3:22 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
kielbasa (Matthew Stoddard) says...
Lastly- Gee, I don't know. How much is the actual unemployment rate with people who have stopped looking for jobs? Does that include all the homeless people in Central Park, Manhattan who might never look for a job? Does that include dead people who stopped looking for jobs, because we know they applied to vote!
Does it include all the people who woke up with a plan to look for a job but decided to sit on the Pilot Forums with conspiracy theories all day and complain that all liberals are out to get them, along with the communists, socialists, therapists...etc.?
August 25, 2010 at 3:40 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seeuski (anonymous) says...
The weasle that you are shines brightly through as again you are called out as a liar and fabricator of facts.
Every time you are proven wrong you go into these hissy fit rants.
Maybe you should just stay at the game forums where you spent years playing with the other kids.
I knew you hadn't read that MB document, being that you accuse me of that crime constantly you have a lot of nerve making such big statements of fact on these subjects when you obviously are oblivious to the truth.
Who the heck are you to comment on my position when you refuse to read anything that would be enlightening towards an opinion other then your ideological starting point?
I won't waste your time or mine any further here as it is pointless to argue, discussing impossible, with someone purposely ignorant to available information.
Good luck.
Oh, I almost forgot, you are on these forums contradicting yourself from one string to another on several occasions.
Like saying you would vote for the person on one and then that you won't vote for a person because of what someone else represents on another.
You have claimed on several occasions that you are a conservative and a Republican but here we finally have you admitting to your support of the stimulus/spread the wealth scam.
Now it is all clear why you are the most rabid foe I converse with here, we are on opposite ends of the spectrum for sure.
Spend some time looking at what is known as the "effective unemployment rate" and see if you can connect that to FOX some how.
Nothing more needs to be said by me as our positions are crystal clear.
And this name calling crap that you started months ago is getting old and will not garner any more response from me, call me what you will and write whatever garbage you want.
August 25, 2010 at 5:36 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bandmama (anonymous) says...
hi, y'all...
Sort of off the going conversation...
There was a very touching letter written to the paper a few days ago from one of our homegrown going to/in Iraq. Can NOT find it anywhere to post.
A young man from here looking forward to the day he comes home to the Yampa Valley Curse.
Sorry....
this one should have made front page.
IF, young man, you still follow, we are waiting for you, and everyone else, to come home safely, Thank you.
Now, if anyone else reading mindlessly and commenting can continue this thread, Please do. Brent, I highly suggest that you reprint this letter and allow time for response.
August 25, 2010 at 9:04 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JohnFielding (John Fielding) says...
.
bandmama
http://www.steamboatpilot.com/news/20...
I'll also post on it again, should bring it up on the menu.
John
.
August 25, 2010 at 11:13 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
kielbasa (Matthew Stoddard) says...
seeuski-
1) "Every time you are proven wrong you go into these hissy fit rants."
That's your problem: you don't show anything close to resembling facts or proven anyone wrong. You show links to innuendo or opinion more often than not. To you and you alone, those are "facts."
2) "I knew you hadn't read that MB document, being that you accuse me of that crime constantly you have a lot of nerve making such big statements of fact on these subjects when you obviously are oblivious to the truth."
The MB document means nothing in the whole course of any issue. It contains nothing relevant to any conversation here except that you think it bolsters a reason to unconstitutionally deny a mosque going up a few blocks from Ground Zero...NOT on Ground Zero. You do this because it hurts your feelings for it to go up, not caring about all the crap you spout about Muslims invading us.
3) "Who the heck are you to comment on my position when you refuse to read anything that would be enlightening towards an opinion other then your ideological starting point?"
Who am I? I'm the guy who calls you on all the misinformation you spew. Nothing you post is enlightening. As I said before, it usually comes from some extremist website such as WND or the like, and it makes everyone more stupid just for seeing a link to such garbage.
4) "Oh, I almost forgot, you are on these forums contradicting yourself from one string to another on several occasions.
Like saying you would vote for the person on one and then that you won't vote for a person because of what someone else represents on another."
WTF are you even talking about? That sentence is barely in English. If what I think you are saying is being said, give a posting time, date, thread, etc. because you are lying once again. Prove it!
cont'd.
August 26, 2010 at 9:07 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
kielbasa (Matthew Stoddard) says...
cont'd
5) "You have claimed on several occasions that you are a conservative and a Republican but here we finally have you admitting to your support of the stimulus/spread the wealth scam."
I have supported the Stimulus from the beginning. Find ONE post where I didn't. I have never claimed to be a conservative. Find ONE post where I did. I have claimed to be a Moderate Republican who is probably more conservative than you in some aspects. I'm evidently more fiscally conservative than you if you keep worrying about taxes.
6) "Spend some time looking at what is known as the "effective unemployment rate" and see if you can connect that to FOX some how."
"Effective" unemployment. There is no way to measure "effective" unemployment. It's a way for one side (and both Dems and Repubs do it) to make a lower unemployment number look worse than it is. How do you quantify something that isn't being looked for? Does each person come up in a line to specifically say, "I'm no longer looking for work. Count me in the "effective" column from here on out."
Honestly, you have got to be one of the most insane people ever. The problem is that people like you rub off on other people, making them insane also. That's the only reason there are 20-25% of people answering surveys saying they think Obama is Muslim when 2yrs ago, they were foaming at the mouth about him being in Rev. Wright's Christian services. Now all of a sudden he's Muslim.
People like you drop the overall intelligence average of the entire human race. It's sad.
August 26, 2010 at 9:08 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Scott_Wedel (Scott Wedel) says...
The point of bringing up Prince Al Walid is not because he is seriously believed to be a major funds source for terrorism, but to show how ridiculous it is to make guilt by association charges because it just as easily implicates one's allies. If the mosque near Ground Zero is being funded by a terrorist then so is FoxCorp. That is supposed to show the folly of guilt by association charges, not to serve as proof that Fox is also a terrorist organization.
If somehow that does not convince of the folly of guilt by association charges, but instead convinces you that Fox is partially owned by an agent of the Muslim Brotherhood then you need to give Fox the choice of buying him out or that you'll drive Fox out of business. Easy way to put pressure on a media outlet is to boycott it. And in this sort of situation, refusing to join the boycott is the same as supporting it.
August 26, 2010 at 11:04 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JohnFielding (John Fielding) says...
.
Matthew
people who, like seeuski, are very concerned about issues they believe are significant to the human condition and cite examples and information sources that may be only partially accurate or one-sided, do us no disservice. It is our own responsibility to seek "the rest of the story" if we wish to base our opinion on balanced presentations. I believe few people will change their minds based solely on his presentations.
I would liken it to your mention of missionary work. Take the Mormons, Catholics and Muslims for instance. Each wishes to improve the human condition, each gives one-sided presentations of something the others would call false and dangerous. But you do not despise the messengers in those cases.
.
August 28, 2010 at 12:46 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
kielbasa (Matthew Stoddard) says...
I would never liken anything the far-right or far-left whackos say as "missionary work." When the message is proved false over and over and the messenger keeps repeating said message, yes- I do despise the messenger. I'm sorry, John. I don't share your values when it comes to people misinforming others. It's wrong and there is no honest way to defend it.
August 28, 2010 at 8:14 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JohnFielding (John Fielding) says...
.
Matthew,
Take a look at the (mis)?)information I posted on the Charlie M. thread. I put it up for all to read even though I do not know if it is all true, all spin or something between. I ask for feedback because the subject is of concern. Is that so very different from what seeuski or others do?
Will you despise me for it?
.
August 28, 2010 at 6:10 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JustSomeJoe (anonymous) says...
YVB - will it be the Cordoba mosque that conquers the US if it ever gets built, or was it one of the other 1,500 mosques serving over 2MM muslims in America (American and non-American alike) that conquered the US? Do you think someone can be an American and Muslim at the same time? Do you think you are more American than someone else, or perhaps a better American?
Do you imagine other patriots like you having a discussion about Catholics over 100 years ago, want to stop the spread of papism? With 68MM Catholics now in the US, and who knows how many churches, have the Catholics conquered the United States ?
This is the United States of America and I still believe the Bill of Rights means something to most people. You may be willing toss the Constitution in the garbage when it suits your needs (bet you are for torturing too), but I think most freedom loving Americans will call you on it. Let's hope so.
August 29, 2010 at 6:59 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seeuski (anonymous) says...
"4- Understanding the role of the Muslim Brother in North America:
The process of settlement is a "Civilization-Jihadist Process" with all the word means. The Ikhwan must understand that their work in America is a kind of grand Jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within and "sabotaging" its miserable house by their hands and the hands of the believers so that it is eliminated and God's religion is made victorious over all other religions."
From the Muslim Brotherhood:
An Explanatory Memorandum
On the General Strategic Goal for the Group
In North America
5/22/1991
Government evidence from the trial of the Holyland Foundation.
Some of us choose not to turn a blind eye to the reality of what we are up against in this struggle.
One more time for those that get confused, we have the Constitutional right to stand up and voice our opinions and protest the "location" of the Ground Zero Cordoba Mosque.
Do some of you only think the Constitution applies to the left and the Muslims?
Learn for yourself.
http://www.homelandsecurityus.com/PDF...
http://educateusa.com/MuslimBrotherho...
This Jihad is in a more advanced stage in Europe and many Governments in Europe are now adding laws to protect their society from Islam.
Our Government is doing the opposite as evidenced by the Iftar dinner statement of support from our President, who had no reason to interject on the subject except that he has some personal reasons to lend his support and the power of the Presidency to the aid of these groups.
Why?
August 29, 2010 at 8:35 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seeuski (anonymous) says...
"CAIR and the MSA were identified as Muslim Brotherhood Islamist fronts last year during the Federal terrorist financing trial of the Holy Land Foundation. During the trial, recently declassified FBI documents were presented as “smoking gun” evidence proving the Egyptian-based Muslim Brotherhood clearly planned and has proceeded in waging a “Civilizational jihad” in America to overthrow our constitutional government."
http://educateusa.com/ExecutiveSummar...
August 29, 2010 at 8:40 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
sledneck (anonymous) says...
The Muslims have conquered nothing.
When America falls, and it will in my opinion soon, the lions share of the blame will lie with it's own.
This construction proposal is within their rights.
It is DEEPLY troubling to me that so many who claim the mantle of defenders of freedom give, in reality, only lip-service to it. Then, when proposed actions aggravate their senses their personal concerns take hold, seemingly removing from them that love of true freedom which they had heretofore held so dear.
Freedom means freedom to fly AND freedom to fall.
It is freedom from regulations applicable to both you AND your enemy.
If we are to defend freedom we must defend it all; both ours and our opponents.
If this was a church would you stand in opposition to it ? If, in your heart-of-hearts, your answer is that you would not oppose it then if you wish to be a defender of freedom you must not oppose a church of another feather.
America has had 10 years to get a tower re-built and our own regulatory nonsense, internal bickering and plain foolishness now finds us still in the basement. We should be ashamed of ourselves for not honoring those people in a more expeditious manner.
That is not only an operational assesment but a telling lesson of what we have become. The mosque will only reflect our true image, not destroy it.
August 30, 2010 at 8:25 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JustSomeJoe (anonymous) says...
ski - muslim brotherhood does not equal Islam or being Muslim. I frankly care little for your rants, but I looked up the MB since your answer to much anything is links on the MB. The MB is a splinter group of Islam and membership can get you arrested in several countries. Are you saying that all American Muslims are part of the Muslim Brotherhood?
The flaw in your logic (Ha! you, logic, i crack myself up) is that you are equating the MB with Islam. It is the same as equating polygamists with all of Mormonism or equating the hundreds of catholic splinter groups with what the pope is currently dealing. I think religon in general is for the birds, but I'm not going to prevent you from praying to whatever god/myth gets you through the night. Bill of Rights.
August 30, 2010 at 8:36 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seeuski (anonymous) says...
JustSome,
I crack myself up too for arguing with the wall constantly. If you actually read the information that I posted and try to see it for what it is then you would know that I am aware of the struggle that the Sharia wing(MB) of Islam is having with the mainstream westernized people who are Muslim. But you have to also understand and take into account the way those in the Islamic faith treat their internal struggles with that of their struggles with the Infidel world.
Read the MB document that I posted and you will see the evidence that the MB understands this and has a long term plan to deal with it. Look at what has taken place in Europe over the last half a century and you can see where we are heading.
And for you to take the politically correct stand that Islam is not the MB then you are just lying to yourself.
I have been to the Middle East and I have seen the different factions of Islam and understand that many are docile and fine but that is changing by design.
Plenty of Muslims and Arabs/Bedouins live peacefully within the State of Israel and it ticks off the rest of the sea. Look at what happens to Palestinians who are suspected of dealing with the Jews, they are dragged to death in the streets and hung up in the square as a warning to any other would be peacemakers.
As for my stance against the Ground Zero Mosque, no I can't ignore the motives and the players behind this travesty. It is called the Cordoba house for a reason.
I will say it again louder, THEY HAVE THE RIGHT TO BUILD IT, I HAVE THE RIGHT TO PROTEST IT.
The Constitution protects both, mine and their, rights in this argument. What do you say Sled?
August 30, 2010 at 8:59 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
kielbasa (Matthew Stoddard) says...
So you truly are saying it's a Muslim thing and not the location. So you truly are prejudiced against the Muslim community. Thanks for finally clarifying that. We've already said the one of the big financiers is one of NewsCorps largest shareholders, the parent company of FOXNews. Why is the question of where the money is coming from still being asked? Because people already know where the money is coming from and it's not scary enough to get people on that side of the issue. So, people like seeuski, among others, keeps bringing it up after it's already been answered. They ignore the truthful answer because it doesn't jive with what goes on under their tin foil hats. (These are the idiots who won't say that the mosque isn't even on Ground Zero.)
August 30, 2010 at 10:14 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JustSomeJoe (anonymous) says...
"And for you to take the politically correct stand that Islam is not the MB then you are just lying to yourself."
So ski, your stance is that if you consider yourself a muslim then you are part of the Muslim Brotherhood?
August 30, 2010 at 10:15 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
sledneck (anonymous) says...
Agreed.
Where I differ is that I will not protest.
I wish they would reconsider and, as I said prevoiusly, I hope someone flies a plane full of taliban into it the day it's completed. NOT BECAUSE IT WAS WRONG TO BUILD IT, but just cause I would like to see turnabout.
Nevertheless they have a right to build it. And you, of course have a right to object vociferously.
However, it is my never-to-be-humble opinion that we show less weakness politically, morally and socially, if we oppose legal acts LESS... even if they be the acts of our enemy. I believe this to be an important tennent of libertarianism (leave others alone & demand from them ONLY the same). This nation would improve if, every day, we all resolved to just do that!
August 30, 2010 at 10:19 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seeuski (anonymous) says...
I agree Sled, especially with the leave me alone part and that they do the same by leaving that site and the 9/11 victims, all of us, alone and go somewhere else.
While I don't like Islam I don't espouse violence against it, so I disagree with us using terrorist tactics as you, I am sure sarcastically, suggested.
As for the others making comments on this subject which they know little about, what a joke. Someone is claiming to know who is financing the Mosque by saying "We've already said the(sic) one of the big financiers is one of NewsCorps largest shareholders, the parent company of FOXNews. Why is the question of where the money is coming from still being asked?"
So the genius know it all of the pilot forums has concluded, and we must concur, that it is fact. Sounds like the old AGW gang saying the debate is over everyone agrees that we are causing global warming. Sorry but reasonable people have seen NO evidence of where this Mosque is getting it's financing or from where the money came for the property, certainly a former waiter who now owes $225,000 in back taxes for that building and more than that to ConEd didn't earn the nearly 5 $million$ that building cost from tips.
But what do I know?
JoeSome, Is that what I said? Gee, I reread my post and I don't see how I can come up with that conclusion, let me read it backwards or sideways, maybe I can twist it up enough that way to arrive at your torturous phony definition of what I said.
Nope, can't do it that way either.
Here is our own Infidel understanding of what it is as managed by wiki.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_B...
If you actually read this and then read the 1991 MB manifesto you can see the tools of jihad and that there is peaceful and violent jihad.
Learn about the different sects of Islam and why the MB is a sect but it is a supremacist movement that has gained strength and power over the others through time. It is my contention that those behind the GZ Mosque are of the MB and dangerous.
And the answer is that the MB is Islam just as much as the Sharia or Sufi are Islam, but we my friend are the Infidels and we will always be unless we submit to dhimmitude.
August 30, 2010 at 11:09 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
kielbasa (Matthew Stoddard) says...
Okay, a developer who used to wait tables. How many people who wait tables go on to other jobs or have degrees in something other than waiting tables? How many people who may or may not have even gone to college have become devolopers or Realtors? How many people have changed their careers in their life? How many people have a degree in one thing and a career completely unrelated? None, I'm sure.
El Gamel has had some dicey trouble with the law, but nothing that connects anything to any conspiracy you are coming up with. Heck, I've been arrested 6 times in my life already. I learned to change. As for back taxes, in this day and age, I'm pretty sure there are plenty of developers or Realtors that might be in the red.
Your own statement shows that you only have accusations and no proof of anything wrong with the financing:
"Sorry but reasonable people have seen NO evidence of where this Mosque is getting it's financing or from where the money came for the property," et al. Read it directly above this post for context. (if someone doesn't post before I finish.)
We have seen NO evidence. Very telling. You have brought NO evidence of anything shady except your desire to find a way to deny someone their constitutional right. Reasonable people, indeed.
August 30, 2010 at 12:48 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seeuski (anonymous) says...
How much more do we need to see before we realize what is being done here?
Watch what is going on in Shanksville PA at the site of flight 93.
Victory?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4z1QN...
August 30, 2010 at 2:57 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JustSomeJoe (anonymous) says...
ski - well, this video does it for me. If you consider this video on you tube as proof of something then I'm all done. You are way over any edge I can see from here. Here's what I'm going to do. I just brought a two foot piece of 2x4 into my office. From now on, whenever I feel the need to respond to one of your posts, I'm going to turn to the 2x4 and have a conversation with it. It will be just as gratifying to me, plus I wont have to try to process your response. Good luck citizen.
August 30, 2010 at 4:16 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
kielbasa (Matthew Stoddard) says...
How much more do we need to see? How about actual proof instead of paranoid fantasy? That might be a good start.
August 30, 2010 at 4:28 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seeuski (anonymous) says...
You may do well by whacking yourself with that 2x4 and seeing if you wake up.
Show me some evidence, show me some evidence, wha wha.
Lazy is as lazy does so here is some proof of the controversy.
" Mike Rosen of the Rocky Mountain News wrote: "On the anniversaries of 9/11, it's not hard to visualize al-Qaeda celebrating the crescent of maple trees, turning red in the fall, "embracing" the Flight 93 crash site. To them, it would be a memorial to their fallen martyrs. Why invite that? Just come up with a different design that eliminates the double meaning and the dispute."[15]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crescent...
Sorry to offend you poor defenders of jihadists Constitutional rights.
August 31, 2010 at 8:20 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seeuski (anonymous) says...
Why is it that both the Ground Zero Mosque and the Shanksville PA site are both set to be dedicated on 09/11/2011?
Gee, I see no connection between the two, it must be a coincidence for us conspiracy theorists.
August 31, 2010 at 8:25 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seeuski (anonymous) says...
"One by one, females were targeted. The sex killers looked for the perfect victims, and after zeroing in, they grabbed and disrobed the little girls in the middle of the gym. There were muffled cries as the girls were humiliated in front of everyone. They were stripped, raped, and sodomized by several men. Not content to simply rape, the terrorists used their guns and other objects to penetrate the screaming victims while the other hostages were forced to watch. And the terrorists laughed. They laughed as they violated the children and made them bleed."
http://www.islam-watch.org/Others/Sex...
Peace.
August 31, 2010 at 8:56 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seeuski (anonymous) says...
Muslims who have awoken to the truth tell us from within.
"We also felt it incumbent upon us to make the non-Muslim world aware of the reality of Islam and take timely precautionary measures against this religion of terror, hate and mayhem. We tell the world that the ongoing terrorism, unleashed by Islamic militants, is not an aberration from the so-called 'peaceful religion of Islam'; instead, it is the real Islam preached and practiced by its founder, Prophet Muhammad. A thorough study of the Qur'an and prophetic tradition (Hadith, Sunnah) makes it clear."
http://islam-watch.org/index.php?opti...
Believe me, certainly not, but go ahead and argue with born Muslims telling us to beware.
August 31, 2010 at 9:07 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Scott_Wedel (Scott Wedel) says...
Where is it said that the mosque near Ground Zero plans for a 9/11/2011 opening?
August 31, 2010 at 9:59 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
kielbasa (Matthew Stoddard) says...
And where in those links does it have anything to do with the NYC Mosque (There is no mosque at Ground Zero, so I don't understand that term) or it's funding? I couldn't find anything to do with any of it in those links. My anniversary of stopping drinking is on 9/11. I didn't start drinking again just because terrorists attacked in '01. It also means that I don't intend to start drinking again on that date next year, should any mosque anywhere open on that date. Plus, since there is no mosque on Ground Zero, it's a non-issue whatever date they open.
And I'll believe the opening date conspiracy just as much as I believe Glenn Beck had "no idea" the date he picked for his "Restoring Honor" lovefest was the same date as MLK's "I Have A Dream" speech...on the exact same location...and that it was purely coincidence.
Scott- there are stories pertaining to a 9/11/11 opening date for the NYC Mosque, at least. Most of them are a few months old, but a couple have reiterated it recently.
August 31, 2010 at 11:04 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seeuski (anonymous) says...
Don't you guys worry about the truth, let those that are not defenders of jihad stay on the case as we don't have to prove it to you, we will just continue to expose the truth to those that care for it.
Glenn Beck drew between 500k and 1 million people to the Mall and uncounted millions on TV and the internet for what was one of the most peaceful and moving moments in Mall history. The Smithsonian Institute has contacted Glenn and requested certain things be saved for a historical record of the event.
I feel very sorry for those that will continue to hate their fellow Americans and their Country, but I am heartened that no one was arrested and that the attendees left the Mall cleaner than they found it. Also the stories of some people, out of curiosity, leaving Al Sharptons hatefest to go over and see what was happening at the Mall and then realizing they were at the wrong event for peace and love.
Restoring Honor and Restoring faith and honoring the our Military Heros is bad? Why?
Dr. Arvada King and the 240 men and women of the cloth from all denominations surely showed great heroism in attending this event in the storm of all the hate and death threats from those that want NO peace.
August 31, 2010 at 12:44 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
kielbasa (Matthew Stoddard) says...
Funny- overhead shots that get used by a private firm accounted for less than 100,000 people. Beck himself said maybe as high 650,000 and Tea Party Owner Michelle Bachmann said "OVER 1 MILLION SOLD!!!! AND DON'T LET ANYONE TELL YOU DIFFERENT!!" Evidently, she means don't even let Beck tell you different. Then again, Bachmann says stuff almost as funny/scary as you. It's amazing that "thinkers" like the both of you still exist in the modern age.
Where is Beck's overheard shots for counting? Haven't found it. It looks from pics more than the 85,000-ish that CBS reported, but I'd say no more than 250,000 max from photos I've looked at. Good crowd, but as usual, no proof from Beck's side as to how many so he can't honestly dispute anyone else's numbers.
As for the Smithsonian, all I can find are those quoting Becks saying the Smithsonian called him. Haven't heard any corroboration from the Smithsonian on this yet. What would they save? It was a pretty sparse stage, from what I've seen. There was nothing overly extraordinary up there.
Also, there was very little about restoring honor. It was more a religious push than anything for the military. If religion equals honor, then you should have no problem with a mosque being put up.
Now- back to what you had posted before gushing on Beck, of whom I only used as an alliteration. Where in those links you provided do they have anything to do with the NYC Mosque and it's funding?
I know- you can't answer, but I'm going to keep pushing this until you do answer it. I will do it every time you decide not to answer and move to some other crap as you usually do when tasked with providing proof. I will continue to push these things to show that you are a pathological liar and completely imbecilic when it comes to reading your own links. Works for me!
August 31, 2010 at 2:10 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Scott_Wedel (Scott Wedel) says...
Quick fact check on the claimed 9/11/11 opening finds no link to anyone related to the project making the quote. None of the articles making that claim referenced any source. Those that have attempted to fact check that claim have not found any such quote or document suggesting that 9/11/11 is their planned opening date.
That claim makes no sense because the sort of redevelopment that is proposed is going to much longer than one year.
It appears to be a flat out lie started in a Murdoch newspaper to hype the controversy.
August 31, 2010 at 2:11 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Scott_Wedel (Scott Wedel) says...
There was also an interesting blog by one of the guys CBS hired to do the estimate. He is an expert at counting crowds describes how he did his thing of counting density of people in different areas from the high def overhead shots and then calculating how much area was covered. And that he came up with 80,000. That another expert hired by CBS came up with 87,000, which statistically is the same, and CBS used the 87,000 number.
This guy also mentioned how he estimated one of Obama's big events at 450,000 and was then praised for making a conservative estimate.
Those that are claiming a larger number have yet to show any methodology of crowd counting that supports their claim other than simply proclaiming they had a huge crowd. Size of the crowd doesn't really matter, event was well attended.
August 31, 2010 at 2:20 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JustSomeJoe (anonymous) says...
Wait, I saw the claimed 9/11/11 mosque opening date on the internet, ergo, it's true. I also saw a you tube video news presentation that said Mitch McConnell is from another solar system -- On the internet, ergo, truth. An interesting new paradigm in "truth", if I can provide a link it must be true.
I find the followers of Beck and Palin to be the most insecure among us. In a rather curious and confused way, some white people are starting almost to think like a minority, even like a persecuted one. What does it take to believe that Christianity is an endangered religion in America or that the name of Jesus is insufficiently spoken or appreciated? Who wakes up believing that there is no appreciation for our veterans and our armed forces and that without a noisy speech from Sarah Palin, their sacrifice would be scorned?
Who claims that the presence of a mosque in Lower Manahattan is a sign of Islam's conquering of America when there are already over 1500 mosques and 2MM Muslims in America? Hysterical, fear mongering conspiracy theorists, that's who.
August 31, 2010 at 2:38 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
trump_suit (anonymous) says...
yvb,
Hasn't there been enough blood shed this year? Do we have to wail and cry for more? Maybe it should be your son/daughter in Afghanistan or Iraq that has to come home in a box or bearing the cost of that war for the rest of their life.
Sounds to me like you are calling for another crusade. I personally hope that humanity had grown past the need for that kind of thing. Don't get me wrong, I will defend what is mine, but I would much prefer to live in peace with my friends and neighbors whether they be black/white/spanish/mexican/japanese/chinese christian/muslim/buddhist/marajuana or heaven forbid republican.
Get the picture?
August 31, 2010 at 4:01 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
kielbasa (Matthew Stoddard) says...
JSJoe- "What does it take to believe that Christianity is an endangered religion in America or that the name of Jesus is insufficiently spoken or appreciated?"
It's takes Glen Beck, who is Mormon. I guess it's okay to be religious for Conextremists as long as it's not being Muslim.
Hey seeuski- You okay if instead of a mosque it was an Episcopal Church or LDS Temple being built near Ground Zero?
August 31, 2010 at 4:30 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JohnFielding (John Fielding) says...
.
In the process of forming my opinions about important subjects, I like to reference source materials when possible. Therefore I have begun to read directly from the Koran, in 3 translations, looking for the directions to conquer the world and use deceit to accomplish it. Thus far I have found this verse, but my search is only an hour old.
YUSUFALI Translation of the Qur'an, Surah: 025.052
Therefore listen not to the Unbelievers, but strive against them with the utmost strenuousness, with the (Qur'an).
http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/cr...
This cannot be all of it, I will post more when I find it. If anyone can give me chapter and verse for the duty of jihad and the deception of infidels I would appreciate it.
.
September 1, 2010 at 8:10 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seeuski (anonymous) says...
Peace be with you.
"George Mitchell, the White House envoy to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, specifically requested that Israel remove roadblocks and checkpoints as a confidence-building gesture to restart talks with the PA, Israeli officials told WND."
http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=197793
http://cifwatch.com/2010/08/31/update...
http://www.viciousbabushka.com/2010/0...
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/New...
This the same Hamas that the Imam Rauf can't bring himself to admit what everyone knows?
http://www.nationalreview.com/article...
Simple question, is Hamas a terrorist org.?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQ12z7...
The Hamas Charter.
http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm
It's an easy answer.
Hamas and the Muslim Brotherhood are jihadist Islamist terrorist organizations.
September 1, 2010 at 8:27 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seeuski (anonymous) says...
John,
Excellent idea, that is exactly what I did after 9/11. I wanted to know why, why they would murder so many innocents throughout all the years. I needed to know for myself why, if as they say Islam is the religion of peace, would they commit such horrible atrocities.
I read the Koran online, I could not find any English versions in the usual stores, and I spoke with Muslim friends.
This web site put together by former Muslims is very informative, check out the testimonials of these individuals as they answer many questions on that subject.
http://www.islam-watch.org/LeavingIsl...
http://islam-watch.org/
Checkout the Hamas Charter I posted above. Look at the murder of four Israelis Yesterday, one a pregnant mother, and how Hamas celebrates this.
Some of my earlier posts showed the connections of the Muslim Brotherhood and Hamas to the Imam, Rauf, and the Ground Zero Mosque.
Here is a great source for what you are looking for.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/
September 1, 2010 at 8:42 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Scott_Wedel (Scott Wedel) says...
And how does their message differ from ours? The one religion started in the US, Mormons, believes in sending missionaries overseas to convert people of other religions to Mormonism. That is a go out and conquer philosophy which can easily be viewed as Holy War philosophy. Many of the Christian religions have, as part of their history, believed that spreading the word of God included using force.
Look at how far from the mainstream are the Amish and Mennonites that preach nonviolence.
September 1, 2010 at 10:10 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
kielbasa (Matthew Stoddard) says...
There you go, John. Your parrot...um..."patriot" gave you exact links to the chapter/verse in the Koran about Jihad. Did you see it on that part he said:
"Here is a great source for what you are looking for.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/ "
Point out that part for me, too. I don't see anything pertaining to quotes directly from the Koran. I must have an eye profile, because I just can't see it! LMAO!!
September 1, 2010 at 10:34 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JohnFielding (John Fielding) says...
.
Scott,
The Oneida Community was a Religious commune founded by John Humphrey Noyes in 1848 in Oneida, New York. The community believed that Jesus Christ had already returned in the year 70, making it possible for them to bring about Christ's millennial kingdom themselves, and be free of sin and perfect in this world, not just Heaven (a belief called Perfectionism).
The Millerites were the followers of the teachings of William Miller who, in 1833, first shared publicly his belief in the coming Second Advent of Jesus Christ in roughly the year 1843. Miller was a prosperous farmer, a Baptist layman and amateur student of the Bible, living in northern New York, in the region of that state which has come to be known as the Burned-over district.
These sects arose in the same time frame and area as Mormonism. Hundreds of less known religions have also originates in the USA, one of the fruits of religious freedom. The difference is that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is very successful. There is much in their teachings and practices that many people find benefits their lives.
"Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them". Matthew 7:20
Matthew's discourse emphasizes that there are those who falsely claim to teach the truth. The difference I have heard and wish to verify for myself is that Islam promotes deception as a legitimate means to gain political control, but unlike Machiavelli, they regard it as not just expedient but as sanctioned by the Almighty.
Matthew,
I did view seeuski's link and afer 11 clicks of page down found "Why do Muslims wage jihad?" One more click gave me chapter and verse of the Prophets statements that I will review through accredited websites.
Thank you seeuski.
.
September 1, 2010 at 4:12 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
kielbasa (Matthew Stoddard) says...
Great. Now take the context of the word Jihad and apply it. Only in western societies is it commonly translated to mean "holy war." Any person who actually has studied Islam instead of pundits views of Islam will tell you that Jihad is normally loosely translated as "struggle." You know- nobody actually thinks military when someone sings out "Onward Christian Soldiers," do they? Make sure you print the link you are quoting when you find your info so we know what the source of your information is.
From the Torah, God commanded "You shall not murder" but in the King James version, it's "Thou Shalt Not Kill." Big difference in the translation. "To Kill" can mean for any reason, but Murder is specific. The Koran also states that murder is wrong except in the case of justice or law.
(And actually, had you Googled- Koran jihad chapter verse- it would have taken you one click to the text of the Koran/Qu'ran. No sense wading thru pig droppings just to find a book. Tell ya what- while you're looking, Google which religion has the most blood on it hands against blasphemers over time.)
September 1, 2010 at 5:16 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seeuski (anonymous) says...
Thank you John.
September 1, 2010 at 6:44 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Scott_Wedel (Scott Wedel) says...
That was not a sensitive site for many months. That distance from Ground Zero is not a problem for other mosques or even a nudie bar. No reason for a reasonable person to think that any other reasonable person would be offended that a Burlington Coat Factory two blocks away from Ground Zero was to be remodeled into a community center and mosque.
A couple months ago Córdoba was known as once being among the most advanced cities in the world, as well as a great cultural, political, financial and economic center. Among it's most notable citizens during Islamic times was a Jewish rabbi and philosopher. And it had the greatest library of it's time. It is not some symbol of Islam conquering Christianity, but of success and education.
The more this goes on, the more it is clear that some people that want to hype a controversy have shown a consistent pattern of distortion and outright lies.
Have you found anything related to the mosque suggesting that 9/11/11 was ever a plausible opening date?
September 1, 2010 at 8:35 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JohnFielding (John Fielding) says...
.
Thank you Matthew, your suggestion was fruitful. Not quite as simple as you described it, but after wading through some commentary sites I found some fairly objective description that included chapter and verse. More importantly, there was a lot of information about proper context for understanding Mohammad's proclamations.
I am still using the University of Southern California's website as it provides three translations simultaneously and one can get a sense of possible variations in the meaning of important words.
Here is a link to Chapter 9. AL-TAWBA (REPENTANCE, DISPENSATION)
http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/cr...
And here is the fifth verse in three translations.
009.005
YUSUFALI: But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
PICKTHAL: Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
SHAKIR: So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
This is only one of reportedly hundreds of verses that describe some form of struggle, this one seems to be plain enough that it is not internal. Still much nuance may shade its meaning, I am not yet able to finalize my own conclusions, but continue to read those of others with interest and an open mind, even when they are as bitter, sarcastic, and self-righteous as yours.
.
September 2, 2010 at 1:27 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
kielbasa (Matthew Stoddard) says...
Deuteronomy 7-1 through 7-4
"1) When the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgash-ites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou;
2) And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:
3) Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son.
4) For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly."
Sounds like the passages you found...except for the "no mercy" clause in the Bible. (Also- had to take the liberty to put a hyphen in Girgash-ites. Pilot Censor read a certain 4 letters within that word to construe it a "feces.")
September 2, 2010 at 8:20 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Scott_Wedel (Scott Wedel) says...
OMG - both the Koran and Bible make it clear that there should be a Holy War until all other religions are gone. I guess both have been dominated by heretics for hundreds of years that failed to follow through on the ordained Holy War and instead falsely taught a message of love and peace.
September 2, 2010 at 8:26 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JustSomeJoe (anonymous) says...
Both the Koran and the Bible are fine works of literature and mythology. Great cultures have always been influenced by their god(s) and the mythology surrounding them. Too bad some are so influenced by these books that they take their passages and warp their lives around them. The golden rule is good enough for me.
September 2, 2010 at 8:48 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seeuski (anonymous) says...
Has anyone noticed that since the Obama Administration has taken power Americans were warned of the angry right and white males causing trouble starting with the Homeland Security statement, from lovely Napolitano, and then all the MSM media?
Even Nancy Pelosi made a tearful statement from the dais worthy of an Emmy stating that "This kind of rhetoric was very frightening, and it created a climate in which violence took place."
I was compared to the white neo Nazi terrorist McVeigh by a nice gentleman on this forum.
Well lets take a look at who and what has caused these fear mongered terrorist acts.
Several Democrat campaign offices saw property damaged and in those cases it was found to have been perpetrated by either a disgruntled Dem worker or some nutball lefty.
At every Town Hall meeting during last years HC debates you had average Americans showing up to let their voices be heard and the only trouble that occurred was caused by the SEIU thugs sent in by the Dems to scare these people from standing up. In one well publicized case an African American SEIU thug attacked another African American Tea Party member for selling Gadsden flags.
Then you had the false reporting of Tea Party members using the N word and spitting on African American Congressmen who bloatingly flaunted their HC victory by walking directly through the crowds that were protesting the passage arm in arm with Pelosi. After a $100k reward offering for video evidence went uncollected the media went silent and hoped for right wing mischief from some other event, if even it could be manufactured with plants who have been busted out recently, a fired Teacher comes to mind.
The only rallies that caused violence and arrests have been from the left with regards to the AZ sb1070 demonstrations in which bottles were thrown at police and many arrests were made.
And then we have these latest incidents, a Muslim Cab Driver was slashed in NYC by a left wing nut who was an employee of the Park51 Cordoba Mosque initiative and of course the media ignores that fact and now we have yesterdays hostage taking at the Discovery channel headquarters in Silver Spring, MD in which an Al Gore follower was shot dead by authorities after a 4 hour standoff. This guy espoused the evilness of human life in favor of mother Earth, where have I heard that before?
This last weekend an Historic event took place at the Mall in DC in which upwards of 1 million Americans came together in peace and there was not ONE arrest made. How is the left wing media covering that event?
By claiming 87,000 right wing KKK types showed up, what a disgrace we see in this country when so much hate for opposing ideas and opinions are the norm on our nightly news. What about the good intentions of Americans who just want to regain that greatness and love of Country that Ronald Reagan so eloquently spoke of when he brought back honor to "That shining City on a hill"?
September 2, 2010 at 8:49 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
kielbasa (Matthew Stoddard) says...
Seeuski- where are your comments about what I posted from the Bible about "holy war?"
In fact, (Google it yourself) if you Google- bible holy war- and you'll come up with with plenty of Old Testament references to God telling his followers to smite pagans, etc.
Oh- and show us (LMFAO!) where even Glen Beck said MORE than 1 million people showed up. (Even Beck never said that high. His estimate was closer to 3-500,000, which again- nobody can show how they came up with that.
Show us Beck's count and how he got it. For some reason, we can only find the guy who actually took aerial photos and did counts from those, as Scott had explained. Were the other 900,000 people all standing behind Beck and couldn't be seen thru his...radiance? So- where is your proof that any media lied about how many people were there? Or were all your personalities doing the counting and then combining those counts into 1 number to achieve your "OVER 1 MILLION SOLD," which is parroting Michele Bachmann.
No- of course you won't show where you got that info because it's hard to show a link to nothing. Bachmann threw that number out and you caught it and held it up like a brass nuva-ring.
September 2, 2010 at 9:23 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seeuski (anonymous) says...
Do you really need me to put up the links to the many aerial photos of the Restoring Honor rally? Do you really need me to show the historical photos of the "I Have a Dream" speech rally?
Do you really need me to do the math for you and compare the MLK accepted 250k large crowd and how Glenn Beck exceeded that by at least double?
Are you this ignorant that you think Americans can't figure it out on their own without the idiotic left wing media and their 87,000 small number?
Don't you have work to do at Staples?
As far as religions and who preaches hate of the other faiths, I will just say this.
I have spent my life in a faith that lives by the Old Testament and have attended hundreds of Sermons and have NEVER, EVER, heard a word of hate for or incitement against, any other faith. Ours was always a hope for peace and love and a strong submission to God.
I have attended many Christian services of differing denominations and can say the same for them.
I have read an account by an Iraqi Jew who infiltrated an Islamic community and has supplied our Government with a wealth of intelligence.
I don't care what your perceptions of faith are, it is fact that matters, and it is a fact that a Holy Man, Imam, blesses terrorists before they go out on their missions of murder.
I have watched the Sermons of Imams and heard them in their own voices call for the deaths of Jews and all other Infidels.
I don't need your propaganda to form an educated position of what is reality.
Here is Rita Kats's bio.
Enjoy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rita_Katz
September 2, 2010 at 10:49 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Scott_Wedel (Scott Wedel) says...
I watched some of the event on CNN and saw nothing suggesting that it was attended by a bunch of kooks. CNN even lacked the guts to use any number for the attendance except Beck's guess.
Have you found anything related to the mosque suggesting that 9/11/11 was ever a plausible opening date?
September 2, 2010 at 10:58 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seeuski (anonymous) says...
http://www.leftcoastrebel.com/2010/08...
9/12 rally photo at street level. How many does it take to fill up the Mall?
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/new...
"MLK's famed 1963 "I Have a Dream" rally was held on the same ground, and the accepted figure is 250,000. (thanks to Dan F)"
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/at...
I grew up in the DC area and have attended many crowded events in that area including the 1985 Beach Boys 4th of July Concert in which about 750,000 attended as was reported on that evenings local news.
I also attended the Funeral of Ronald Reagan and according to the buffoonish CBS estimate I guess that only a hundred or so would have been there.
Stupid is as stupid does, huh sausage?
Go ahead and continue the farce though if it makes you feel better but for what?
September 2, 2010 at 11:08 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JohnFielding (John Fielding) says...
.
Matthew,
I never said I support the teachings of ancient scripture, I said I wish to learn more about them by reading them for myself. I am already intimately familiar with the way some Christians make use of Scripture. My position was made clear on the Charlie M thread where on July 27, 2010 at 11:43 a.m I posted:
"My hope is that true enlightenment may spread among mankind, allowing continued respect for historical religious traditions while at the same time accepting that they are the product of their times and only in the most figurative sense applicable to guide human behaviors."
and on July 27, 2010 at 2:39 p.m;
"Let us seek after the Truth, in all its myriad forms and obscure sources. My personal preferences are those written in stone, but not by human hands."
and 50 clicks up on this thread (August 19, 2010 at 10:28 p.m) where I concluded my comment with:
"In my prayers I try to ask for little, be thankful for much. When I do ask, it is most often for enlightenment for all my brothers and sisters, that we may yet fulfill our incredible potential in this amazing universe. Amen."
I stand by my position therein expressed. To refresh you on the motivation for my current inquiry I refer to the Bob McConnell thread, August 15, 2010 at 9:52 p.m:
"As the method by which we uphold this Conviction we are, if not embracing, then at least tolerant of all positions, even those which are intolerant themselves, up to the point where they seriously infringe upon the rights of others. An inconvenience is not enough, attempts to legislate morality are not enough, it takes actions of coercion, subversion, or sedition to provide a basis for the government to force a change upon a religious order."
There are claims of such actions being made as a part of the religious practice of Islam. Terrorism is not less of a crime than polygamy, and it is within our constitutional rights and duties to fight it even by restricting "freedom of religion".
.
September 2, 2010 at 11:18 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seeuski (anonymous) says...
Amen.
September 2, 2010 at 11:30 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Scott_Wedel (Scott Wedel) says...
Maybe a more accurate count of MLK's speech would be 87,000. Who knows? Who cares? If there are high def overhead shots of MLK's speech then a more precise attendance could be calculated. The point of the 87,000 for Beck is that it appears to be accurate, that it was the result of careful analysis that stands up to scientific rigor. Facts can be true without being the result of a vast left wing conspiracy.
I don't even care if you want to argue that more people attended Beck's event than attended MLK's speech. The importance of MLK's speech is not the number of people there that day that heard it in person. The historical importance of that day was that speech. That is simply a great speech on what America stands for and should become. And not just America, but for all people everywhere.
These are two of the most perfect sentences ever:
I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character.
"Let freedom ring. And when this happens, and when we allow freedom ring—when we let it ring from every village and every hamlet, from every state and every city, we will be able to speed up that day when all of God's children—black men and white men, Jews and Gentiles, Protestants and Catholics—will be able to join hands and sing in the words of the old Negro spiritual: "Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty, we are free at last!"
September 2, 2010 at 11:49 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Scott_Wedel (Scott Wedel) says...
But no one limits Mormon temples to combat polygamy.
We set laws regulating legal behavior. We do not regulate places of worship because we are fearful of what people of that religion might do.
September 2, 2010 at 11:54 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
kielbasa (Matthew Stoddard) says...
seeuski- Yep. Looked at those pics and others. The MLK shows it much more densely packed on both sides, and at the bottom of the pic. It shows buildings to the left of the tree line where you can't see any open space. The bottom is more densely packed than the Beck photo. The right side of the photo shows as densely packed as the left side, but not as much coverage shown in the photo due to the photographer's angle for the shot.
The Beck photo shows the buildings to the left side are no longer there. It shows room for a lot more people, but it also shows a very large empty area over there. That open space shows a lot of open holes and the bottom of that pic shows nary a soul compared to the bottom of MLK shot. Less people in one area compared to more in the other.
Either way, there is nobody making claims to any specific number or their credentials for counting such as the other people. I've already said I thought closer to the 200,000 mark. Only a bunch of people who seem to have trouble with numbers (gee, You? Damn straight!) are saying 1 million. I would never trust you to do anyone's math.
Why are you disparaging Glen Beck for not agreeing with the number you purport? Remember- his estimate is signifcantly lower than what you keep bleating.
John- The point was everything the Koran teaches, the Bible also teaches. It's up to an individual's translation and implementation that basterdizes it. The mosque being built is being equated to the fringe of Islam, just like the pastors of religions who have sex with children are the fringe of that religion. I never hear anyone telling Christianity they can't build churches somewhere (like near schools) because they are a religion of perverts.
I applaud you wanting to find more info for yourself. I'm pretty sure I know your conclusion when you do find it. The study of human nature has always been more fascinating to me than the study of religion, which is why I'm not a practicing Catholic any longer.
September 2, 2010 at 12:01 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seeuski (anonymous) says...
Good post Scott,
That is why the event held by Glenn Beck was so beautiful, it was attended by 240 men/women of the clergy representing many faiths including, Christians, Jews, Muslims and others. The fact that MLK's niece stood on those steps and spoke of the same hopes and the fact that at the end a Preacher gave prayers for our President and Congress to an inspired audience was a testimony to the desires of those of us who enjoyed that momentous day.
I also saw many in the audience who would have been at the MLK speech if it were 47 years earlier and they had their children with them, something that would have been a risk 47 years ago.
I say we have evolved as a Country and that there are those who wish to keep us in racial bondage and Al Sharpton and the likes are guilty.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aiOj1m...
September 2, 2010 at 12:04 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seeuski (anonymous) says...
Oh unholy one, the king of photo analysis, I bow to you and your greatness. Please forgive me of my mortal sins in not seeing the greatness of your ability to count people and judge thy mortals from thy photos.
Will thy great unholy one please tell us mortals if the pilot was correct in it's La 'nina snow prediction.
Though great unholy one who knows all, I shall await on bended knee thou's great undivine no little knowledge on all that is mortal in the here and now.
September 2, 2010 at 12:13 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
kielbasa (Matthew Stoddard) says...
It's not about prediction- it's about deduction. That's your problem- you have no talent for observation, deduction or calculation; only emotional whining. This is why I am usually correct more often than you- simple deductive reasoning and analysis. You can look up the meaning of those words, along with the literal and common translations of "jihad" for free on www.dictionary.com if you like.
Oh- I know you like to keep yourself locked up in the past for fear of progress, but there was never any such word as "thou's". You sound like the past writers of Marvel's Thor comic book, when they thought all Norse (and Greek/Roman) gods should all be written to speak as if written by Shakespeare. (And you can't even use the proper Olde English terms, to boot.)
You know- that's actually another perfect example: "You" used to be a lower caste way of talking, while using "Thou" showed more formal education. Now, nobody uses anything but "you". Just in time for you to show just how edumacated you really are. Words and their meanings change. The word that used to be a term for a bundle of sticks became a derogatory word to call homosexuals. So, "jihad" had about 1200yrs or so for ignorant people to basterdize it's meaning.
Sounds like you also haven't ever taken any foreign language classes, along with a list of general ed classes. Being self-taught is an admirable thing...but it still means an idiot was teaching you.
September 2, 2010 at 1:18 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seeuski (anonymous) says...
I haven't laughed this hard in a year, thanks jihad sausage, thanks.
Now back to the stockroom with ya.
September 2, 2010 at 2:17 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
George_Krawzoff (anonymous) says...
Just testing to see if anybody but Seeuski can have the last word on these blogs. I'm thinking not.
September 2, 2010 at 2:45 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
kielbasa (Matthew Stoddard) says...
No, only I'm allowed to have the last word, George. You should know that by now! LOL!
Seeuski- of course: no honest, hard work to rebut anything. Par for the course and you are only a par 2. Keep laughin', because you're the joke, much like your math & language skills.
Keep'em comin' and I'll keep correcting your misinformation so as to keep showing you as 1) an idiot; 2) a pathological liar; 3) a bigot since it seems that as long as it's a mosque, you are against it. You won't answer whether a church or temple would be okay, so it must just mean No Muslims Allowed.
I told you- it's about observation and I'm much better at it than you are. That's what the military and theater teach you- attention to detail. That's why some of us can plainly see that there is no Ground Zero mosque while people like you who have a hard time with numbers can't tell where Ground Zero truly is if you think there is a mosque going in there. That's also how some of us actually know what's in the link we provide, when we post.
John Fielding proved that point just by saying it took 11 clicks from the link you provided to even find what you deemed "helpful" to his search. Honestly, you didn't even know that it did truly link him to information to find what he was looking for. You provided what YOU wanted him to see; not what HE said he wanted to see. And, as I said- I bet I can type a paraphrased post to that outcome...just like I usually do with you. I just change a few verbs here, a few adjectives there. I'd say it's as easy reading you as a Dr. Seuss book, but Dr. Seuss was harder reading...40yrs ago.
September 2, 2010 at 3:29 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JohnFielding (John Fielding) says...
.
Scott,
the US government did in fact seize property of the Mormon Church and imprison its leaders to combat polygamy. I guess you could call that limiting temples. The reason no one does it now is that we won, the Mormons renounced polygamy and excommunicated anyone who refused to comply.
Would the same policy be appropriate for those who encourage human sacrifice by suicide bombers, promising them rewards in heaven for helping to bring about the peace on earth that will reign when all are under Islamic law?
.
September 2, 2010 at 9:37 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JohnFielding (John Fielding) says...
.
FYI, it was that same promise of rewards in Heaven that got so many women to go along with polygamy. However willingly they complied, it stands the test for coercion in this country.
.
September 2, 2010 at 9:43 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
kielbasa (Matthew Stoddard) says...
From what I read, Andrea Peyser is the one that said it opened on 9/11/11. I didn't see where anyone but her said that in her article. In fact, she states it once at the beginning and then never addresses it again on 2 pages worth of text. Are you saying Andrea Peyser is the terrorist that okayed the mosque to open on 9/11/11? That fiend!
September 2, 2010 at 9:43 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JohnFielding (John Fielding) says...
.
It is with a touch of chagrin, but more ironic amusement that I reflect I was in my youth more like the Kielasa than I would have wished. But I worked very hard at learning more, as I suspect he is too, and finally gave myself an education. That is to say, in the well chosen words of Kenneth G. Johnson (1922-2000 American educator, semanticist).
..."going forward from cocksure ignorance to thoughtful uncertainty."
"Ah but I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now."
Bob Dylan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FUGzw...
.
September 2, 2010 at 10:36 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seeuski (anonymous) says...
The person who was quoted by the media was Daisy Kahn, it was reported by USA Today on 05/07/2010 and it was also reported at Philly.com on 08/26/2010, which has apparently been scrubbed.
"The Muslim organizations plan to announce the groundbreaking later this year, possibly to coincide with the 10th anniversary of the attacks, Khan said."
http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion...
So sorry to disappoint you Scott, that it is not the "right wing conspiracy" that media matters is telling it's koolaid drinkers to spread around.
To the number one liar on the forum, sausage, chew on it far a while.
Oh, and a new investigation has turned up the source of funds for the Mosque, Hamas.
That moderate group of admitted Muslim Jihadist murderers.
September 3, 2010 at 8:14 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seeuski (anonymous) says...
"Why is it that on June 4th 1967 I was a Jordanian and overnight I became a Palestinian?"
http://www.shoebat.com/
September 3, 2010 at 8:28 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seeuski (anonymous) says...
Recently concluded investigation into so called "moderate Muslim Mosque" in Florida.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-HIQQ...
This video tells it all and is chilling it also has answers to the recent Hamas flotilla in July that caused so much media coverage and anti Israel sentiment around the World.
Info on the investigation of the Ground Zero Mosque to come.
September 3, 2010 at 8:52 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seeuski (anonymous) says...
So the crowd at 08/28 was not tightly packed? Bogus again.
Check out some of the many photos and judge for yourself, who needs the estimate of a fool?
http://www.glennbeck.com/content/arti...
September 3, 2010 at 9:25 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
kielbasa (Matthew Stoddard) says...
"possibly to coincide with the 10th anniversary of the attacks, Khan said."
And it's not even a direct quote from her, so what was the context of what she said? And it said "possibly." And it was for a ground breaking, not an opening. Any other misinformation you want corrected? Any other official announcements you can't find you want to lie about?
Maybe just like Glen Beck, the scholar of history that he is, the developers of the mosque just didn't realize there was something about the date they planned for their Restoring Honor...oops!...their mosque opening. It's not like they purposely planned to seize the anniversary of MLK's most famous spee...excuse me...seize 9/11 for themselves. I'm sure it would have been an honest mistake. LOL! And furthermore, EVEN if it were true and has still been scrubbed as you say, what's the fuss? Are you now angry that it's been scrubbed because you have 1 less thing to bray on?
As for the "new" info on funding...go for it! Got that one cut & pasted into Word for you when you bring that to the table.
September 3, 2010 at 9:58 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seeuski (anonymous) says...
POO POO.
September 3, 2010 at 10:12 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seeuski (anonymous) says...
Who in this video would most closely resemble the sausage?
"HOLOCAUST SURVIVOR GETS CURSED OUT"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MF_tL8...
Warning: There is some graphic language from the hater.
September 3, 2010 at 10:24 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
kielbasa (Matthew Stoddard) says...
How frickin' funny is that?? "Hey- instead of looking at those aerial shots I showed you before that had a bunch of larger, empty areas...let me change your mind with close up shots of people where you can't see a majority of the area covered by the first shots."
"Gee, Rocky! Watch me pull a rabbit out my hat!" Bullwinkle was better at that trick than you.
And what Hamas funding are you talking about- NYC or Florida? So you don't want the Florida Mosque built in NYC because it was funded by Hamas?
I apologize. I had a perfectly good typed up rebuttal based upon you mentioning a specific citing about the funding for the NYC mosque. I screwed up. I never saw it coming. You are against the Florida mosque; not the NYC one.
Well that's a different matter.
September 3, 2010 at 10:32 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
kielbasa (Matthew Stoddard) says...
Poor guy in the video. Unfortunately, the Holocaust has no bearing on this situation. Or are you saying that the mosque issue is comparable in any way, shape or form to the Holocaust? Was the Holocaust that much of a trivial issue in your mind to make a comparision to this mosque being built? You should be ashamed of yourself for even trying to make that comparison!
September 3, 2010 at 10:44 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seeuski (anonymous) says...
Stay tuned, over and out for now. And keep believing the crowd was only a couple hundred thousand, no matter, the vote in November is where it counts along with those Americans who are awakening to see people like you for what they truly are.
The video above is an illustration.
September 3, 2010 at 10:48 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seeuski (anonymous) says...
Watch it boy, you are treading on the graves and memories of family lost and those who survived it now.
September 3, 2010 at 10:56 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
kielbasa (Matthew Stoddard) says...
Unless your memory is that mess up, YOU posted the Holocaust victim video. Why? What did it mean? What does the Holocaust have to do with a simple mosque being built. Just some little equivalent to "Let's all go to the lobby" at intermission? Did you think it would bolster your argument by making a horrendous comparison? No...you didn't think at all, did you? You just figured it might be a cute thing to just toss in. Great job crapping on the graves of every person who died in the Holocaust. You are truly a sickening person. I really hope you feel better after making a mockery of the Holocaust just to suit your need.
September 3, 2010 at 3:27 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
kielbasa (Matthew Stoddard) says...
yvb- In the matter of someone making comparisons of the mosque issue to the Holocaust, I think I'm pretty much right on when saying it's the smallest issue you could compare to the Holocaust. Seeuski has purported to have family as survivors and then makes an comparison of the two. That belittles the scope of what happened during WWII. I think seeuski's claim of familial survivorship is a load. If it isn't, it sure shows comtempt for those family members.
Then again, I've seen both of you pull a lot of crap out of thin air just to "back up" your positions. Nice to know where you stand in that comparison, yvb. I guess one million Jews dying is much less important than a church going up. And let's not talk about he child-like b.s.. It means very little from someone trying to scam emails with talk of showing Obama's Kenyan birth certificate. I suppose that ranks further up the importance-of-history ladder than the Holocaust for you, also.
September 6, 2010 at 8:51 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seeuski (anonymous) says...
your day is coming punk.
September 6, 2010 at 7:46 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JohnFielding (John Fielding) says...
.
In the spirit of the golden rule, (not the Islamic version)
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2009/05/isl...
I will make one more unsolicited attempt to share enlightenment with Mr. Stoddard. Although some whose opinions I value have advised me of the futility, I reply that the effort is its own reward.
When I said I had seen some Kielbasa reflected in my back pages it was that my guard stood hard when abstract threats too noble to neglect deceived me into thinking I had something to protect and that Good and Bad, I'd defined these terms quite clear, no doubt, somehow. You know the rest
Matthew, the abstract threats you seek to protect against are simply a case of yvb and seeuski, like you and me, being members of that group known as all the people, who can be fooled some of the time. The other group, some of the people, who can be fooled all the time, will never benefit from such efforts. And those who could gain insight from your rebuttals will likely reject them because of the tone you employ, and will certainly reject them if they suspect you view them as needing your assistance.
It is a thankless job, but nevertheless, good luck with your jihad.
.
September 6, 2010 at 10:51 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
kielbasa (Matthew Stoddard) says...
That's right, seeuski. Keep blaming me for what you did. It's the only thing you know instead of owning up to it.
September 7, 2010 at 6:36 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Scott_Wedel (Scott Wedel) says...
To me it comes down to this: obviously government could have done things better and deficits are bad, but the sort of people with the knowledge and judgment to fix these problems are able to recognize that Obama was born in Honolulu, that the Foxnews Mosque near Ground Zero has been nothing but despicable hype, and that Islam is not a threat to the USA.
It'll be the end of the Tea Party and it'll split the Republicans if they take control of either house of Congress. Actually being forced to come up with an idea and propose legislation will show that mindless anger is certainly not going to make anything any better.
September 7, 2010 at 11:18 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JustSomeJoe (anonymous) says...
YVB - I've followed this thread from the beginning and my posts have already shown which side I'm on. However, for you to only call out Kielbasa as immature and caustic is the definition of short sighted. Ignoring your own posts and most certainly ski's posts is quite the contradiction. Both you and ski show the same child like contempt you refer to in your last post when someone can't understand the difference between a mosque that might be built three blocks away from ground zero and another one that exists five blocks away. If someone doesn't share your view, they are "naive". pot meet kettle, eh? Perhaps I'm just as immature and caustic since I don't agree with you?
Scott - agree with you on the Tea Party and the Republicans. I thought the split was already headed there, but within the past 6 months or so TP leaders and Republicans have been able to dial back a lot of the over the top rhetoric, likely enough to get them back in power with the state of the economy. Unfortunately their ideas and legislation will be quite familiar to us. Deregulation, and MORE tax breaks for the wealthiest individuals and corporations will drive us back to the same place. Governing will be quite a wake up call with 2 wars (maybe more once they are in power) and a still flagging economy.
September 7, 2010 at 1:05 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Sep (Brian Kotowski) says...
Those who assert tea partiers are without solid alternatives or concrete proposals either haven’t been paying attention, or are being deliberately disingenuous. The most prominent current office holders by tea party lights are arguably Chris Christie & Paul Ryan. One may disagree with Christie’s governance & Ryan’s legislative proposals, but only the most rabid of lefty axe-grinders can claim that we have nothing to say but “no.” It’s actually “HELL no, & here’s what we oughtta be doing instead.”
September 7, 2010 at 2:05 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Scott_Wedel (Scott Wedel) says...
Sep,
I wasn't saying that the Tea Partiers don't have any ideas. I was suggesting that their ideas are not widely supported ideas and I was implying that their ideas run contrary to many Republican ideas.
Many Tea Partiers would like to back to the gold standard, get rid of the Federal Reserve and so on. The Republicans recently started promoting Paul Ryan and then quickly backtracked after his solutions to social security were publicized.
John's quoting the Quran has been a lesson in bias. Not only does the Bible have very similar quotes, but it is absurd to take quotes from another person religion and presume that those are considered fundamental beliefs of that religion. What would Christians say if someone quoted Genesis and said those people don't believe that the earth was formed several billion years ago or that dinosaurs roamed the earth hundreds of millions years ago and thus Christians are at war with geologists and biologists?
September 8, 2010 at 12:26 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
housepoor (anonymous) says...
So where is the tea party holding it's local Quran burning????
September 8, 2010 at 9:10 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Scott_Wedel (Scott Wedel) says...
As a reasonable Protestant, that church's Quran burning makes me wonder if I should burn a Bible to stand with people of faith around the world. Martin Luther had the brilliant realization that everyone can read the Bible and understand religion in their own terms. It is inconceivable that a person of faith from that tradition could consider another person's religion to be wrong or evil.
If we want to understand what it means to burn a Quran then we should burn some Bibles and feel the pain of what is being done.
September 8, 2010 at 10:38 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
kielbasa (Matthew Stoddard) says...
yvb- We can prove the Holocaust happened. I'm not denying that. Seeuski is anonymous and lies constantly in posts. Why should I believe seeuski's personal claims on anything when the stuff that is verifiable in seeuski's posts isn't usually correct? And discounting one person's account that can't be verified isn't denying the Holocaust happened.
Get this straight, yvb: I'm not the person who posted a video comparing the importance of the mosque as being more important in history than the Holocaust. Anyone who does that and still claims familial ties to Holocaust survivors is either lying or doesn't care the first thing about that family. I would love a better explanation as to why someone would do that. Nobody seems to be able or willing to give that though.
Why don't you harp on seeuski for even making that comparison? Because you already admitted implied agreement with seeuski's assessment that the Holocaust is waaaaaay down the ladder of importance pertaining to history with your post up above.
September 8, 2010 at 12:36 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JustSomeJoe (anonymous) says...
YVB - I should save old my towels and sheets? Because soon everyone in the country will be forced to be muslim and wear old towels and sheets? Are you imagining some sort of "Red Dawn" scenario where all the muslim countries band together and invade the US and take over every town including Steamboat? Or perhaps in your mind it's a deep cover plot where a keynan born muslim is elected president and forces everyone to wear old towels and sheets?
There's an old cabin deep in the woods of Idaho that's waiting for you. Dig a bunker and wait it out.
September 8, 2010 at 3:05 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Sep (Brian Kotowski) says...
Re: the Koran burning BS - a relevant letter to the editor posted at National Review Online: http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/...
" There is a good bit of context missing in all of these discussions about the Koran burning stunt down here. First, this “church” has about 30 members total. The “pastor” is a certified nutjob who has no influence or pull in the community. His “church” was rung up for tax evasion a while back because a part of the “ministry” is recruiting his congregants to restore furniture and sell it on E-bay. He is basically auditioning to be the next Fred Phelps and has recently taken his message to youtube, where his page views come in well below “gnarly skateboard falls” and “OMG Best Soccer Goal Ever!”
The guy is an old-fashioned snake oil salesman and people have taken the shock value of this stunt and blown it way out of proportion. The fact that this is an international incident is a testament to how the internet can make anyone famous or infamous. "
My own googling on this clown suggests that he has claimed as many as 100 "congregants" at one time. That the media is giving him such a platform spotlights just how laughable contemporary "journalism" has become. That partisan hacks like housepoor are so eager to use it to smear those whose politics they disagree with says immensely more housepoor & his ilk than it does about anyone else.
September 8, 2010 at 4:13 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Scott_Wedel (Scott Wedel) says...
This minister is such a nut job that he is taken seriously by YVB
September 8, 2010 at 9:29 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JohnFielding (John Fielding) says...
.
Scott,
You will not have to look hard to find Christians who believe that Genesis is quite literally the description of Creation. Explanations for fossils range from the work of the Devil to lead man astray, to Noah's flood, to the theory that God used pieces of older worlds to assemble this one. You will find some such concepts being taught here in Steamboat as well as nearly every other town in this county. It is a very widespread and in some areas influential group.
My personal research into Islam has given me considerable insight into the nature and context of their scriptures and how they are used by some of the factions within that religion. My observation is that one would have to reject a considerable amount of the Koran to come away with a prescription for benevolent relationships with non Islamic people.
But it is quite possible that many, especially in this country may make that rejection, just as so many Christians, especially in this country do. However it appears that the literalists in Islam are far more influential worldwide, and inclined to enforce the scriptural remedies for apostates, than any Christian sects.
What is indisputable is that a great many use the Koran very effectively to institute tyrannical theocracies and recruit all manner of warriors from suicide bombers to common foot soldiers. And there is no doubt that the USA is seen as the primary target for the jihad.
Thus, Islam is a threat unless very large numbers of its members are willing to disregard the scripture. I still have no concept of how many will if given a free society to live in but there is no such opportunity in Islamic countries. Even in this country there seems to be some fear of retaliation for straying from the faith.
Any bias against Islam you may perceive in my sharing of my investigation will be more than matched by my bias against religious excesses in every sect and denomination. While I believe some form of religion, (that is a concept of or spiritual connection to the forces of Nature that have resulted in our existence) is essential for healthy human being , I recognize it as the most abused influence in history, and pray for the day when the concept of truly loving ones fellow creatures (human and other) will be universally recognized as the fundamental True Way.
.
September 8, 2010 at 10:49 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Scott_Wedel (Scott Wedel) says...
One would also have to ignore much of the Bible to think that it would accept it's followers should live peaceably with people of other religions. And certainly the Bible was used to justify wars against infidels.
And while there may be Christians that chose to believe Genesis and do not believe geologists and biologists that does not mean the faithful do any of the nasty stuff that that Bible says to do to heretics.
I think it does show consistent bias to only post about the perceived threats of Islam. In order to give credence to any claims of fairness would require that you had also posted the reasons why Islam is also considered a religion of peace and learning.
September 9, 2010 at 1:10 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
MrTaiChi (anonymous) says...
@ Scott
I am no scholar of either the Bible or Koran. I’m in no position to refute your assertion above that the Bible compels harsh actions against heretics, but I doubt that you can find such an injunction in the New Testament in which Jesus taught that not only were the followers to love your neighbors, the Old Testament injunction, but they were to love their enemies.
I am unable to understand the Jews aggression against the Canaanites as God’s directive, but it is undisputedly scriptural and part of the heritage that Christians built upon. That said, it should be noted that the directive to attack, slay and destroy this people was directed against one people at a specific time for a specific purpose, about 3,600 years ago. Islam enjoins its followers to attack all non-believers, to slay the Pagans, (Hindus, animists and Buddhists), and to subdue the people of the book, Christians and Jews, and to force them to pay a privilege tax if they refuse to convert.
It is bewildering how many of the contributors here project the goodwill and benevolence of our pluralistic culture to an Islamic culture that has no problem with supremacist attitudes. Talk about ‘judgmental’ and intolerance of diversity. Even here in America there are practically no Muslim voices calling for rejection of the passages of the Koran inconsistent with basic Western concepts of human rights.
Islam can be a religion of peace, in practice, also the reverse. Who do you think better understands Islam, one raised in the faith justifying violence by Islamic scriptural orthodoxy, or our resident Yampa Valley experts who whistle through the graveyard that comforting tune, “Islam, the religion of peace?”
September 9, 2010 at 7:30 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
MrTaiChi (anonymous) says...
Next year is some sort of anniversary of Cordoba, the city of 'enlightenment' on the Iberian peninsula in which, under Muslim government learning and tolerance flourished. At least that's what we were taught in school, right? Well, Islam means "submission", and in a police state there is a level of peace and stability, but the only people who like living in a police state are the police. It will be interesting to see if the media honestly report what life was like in Cordoba for Jews and Christians. Remember also that in Islam, human images are forbidden, a rule sometimes breached, but it explains why there was no great flourishing of Islamic art equivalent to Western renaissance art, in Cordoba. The same is true for music. The prophet pronounced that a female mucisian should have hot lead poured in her ear.
Acknowledgement has to be made of the Islamic contributions to math, science, and astronomy. They built on the accomplishments of the Greeks and other cultures they absorbed. Arabic numbers in fact originated in India as did the concept of zero.
Their contributions to warfare are most impressive. They surpassed the Romans in using engineering to defeat their enemies. Tamurlane, used to haul an imam around with his armies to pronounce that the inhabitants of a city he wanted, practiced an impure form of Islam, justifying his conquest, which if resisted resulted in the pile of human heads stacked up like a mountain. Each of his soldiers had to gather two. He had no doctrinal problems attacking the Christian city of Antioch in which he killed all the men and took the women and children into slavery. When he attacked India he had to face war elephants for the first time. The Indian king placed them facing the enemy in front of his infantry. Tamur had bundles of brush tied to the backs of camels and lit before the camels were driven toward the elephants, bellowing in their agony. The elephants panicked and trampled their way back through the Indian infantry. Nice folks to know, all around.
Would modern Islam be benevolent towards Christians and Jews? No Islamic country now forces payment of the priviledge tax, for instance, although it is a law unenforced but unrepealed in most of them. Given the best example, would living in Turkey be as acceptable as living somewhere in the Bible belt?
By the way, the self annointed preacher in Florida who wants to burn the Koran is a jackass for many reasons.
September 9, 2010 at 8:13 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JustSomeJoe (anonymous) says...
Can anyone say we are a peaceful nation or that Christians in the US (represented by our government) are a peaceful nation? The US has been right next to the world leaders in violence around the world. We are thankfully spared the everyday violence much of the world sees, but would a Vietnamese or Iraqi family destroyed by our bombs while we export democracy to the world look at us as peaceful? How about our virtual extermination of the Native American and our own civil war?
September 9, 2010 at 8:19 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Scott_Wedel (Scott Wedel) says...
I think it is common sense that it is the local culture that determines whether plurality and acceptance of others is accepted. Religions have enough source material to justify calling interracial marriages an abomination, killing homosexuals, war and so on. But there is also source material supporting the opposite view. Thus, what is considered the higher morality and accepted by the culture is not simply what can be quoted here and there from religious books. It is a more complex cultural consideration of what is the morally right way to treat our family, friends and other people.
There was a time, not so long ago, in which women could not own property, slavery was legal, husbands could beat their wives and states banned interracial marriages. All these have changed without rewriting the Bible or Torah or any other religious text.
Jews have been persecuted in the name of Jesus Christ, but now it is obvious that was wrong, but it wasn't a new version of the Bible that changed people's minds. It was the culture that changed and recognized that was wrong.
While religions have been used to justify hating other people, I know of no religion that teaches that as such a fundamental core belief that there are no places in which that religion peaceably coexists with other religions. The most populous Islamic country has churches and allows new churches to be built.
September 9, 2010 at 9:18 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Sep (Brian Kotowski) says...
No nation can claim to be without behavior in its past that it regrets in the present. If past transgression is the calculus for a present-day evaluation, there is no industrialized country on earth that can assert its “peaceful[ness].” Indicting contemporary America for slavery or the American Indian is a red herring. Unless you’re a soldier in Jeremiah Wright’s “God Damn America!” brigade.
Scott writes that he’s unaware of any fundamentally intolerant religion. I respectfully suggest he hasn’t been paying attention. One doesn’t need to be a Muslim scholar to recognize the supremacist doctrine devolving from the Prophet Muhammad (Propeller Beanie Upon Him) and his teachings. 9/11 is entirely consistent with those edicts, and they’ve been at it since the 7th century. Nearly 1400 years of unrelenting effort to impose their ideology, and perfectly willing to slaughter those who refuse to submit; including their own – just ask Anwar Sadat. Nearly 1400 years of a theo-political construct, which would never consider separation of church & state. Would you rather be a Muslim in Israel, or a Lutheran in Saudi Arabia? A Sikh in Sacramento, or a Protestant in Pakistan?
Take a look at the founding documents of groups like Hamas. Their intentions and bloodlust are *explicitly* spelled out – not 1400 years ago, but here and now. It is not unreasonable to question the motives of Feisal Abdul Rauf , the Imam spearheading the the GZ mosque. He’s an avowed Hamas supporter and financial contributor, and refuses to call it a terrorist organization. He also says that any attempt to move the mosque will result in violence. Not 1400 years ago, but here and now. I wonder what kind of bloodshed we can expect from local Christians who are denied a nativity scene at GZ?
Anyone unable to see these distinctions or recognize how incompatible contemporary Islam – as understood and practiced by people like Rauf (who has been anointed by the media as a moderate) – is with our own values, is wearing some pretty impressive blinders.
September 9, 2010 at 12:23 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JustSomeJoe (anonymous) says...
Sep - what about contemporary Christianity, as practiced by our elected leaders? Peaceful? Put yourself in a Iraqi or Afgan family's shoes, how do you feel about Christians now? Not every muslim is a militant and not every Christian is a militant. Try to drop the ethnocentric view every once in a while and take a walk in someone else mocassins.
September 9, 2010 at 4:24 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Jeff_Kibler (inactive user) says...
Fidel makes some interesting comments about Jews and Muslims:
http://www.theatlantic.com/internatio...
and about other things:
http://www.theatlantic.com/internatio...
September 9, 2010 at 5:27 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JohnFielding (John Fielding) says...
.
A very significant difference is that our wars in Muslim countries are not based on promoting or repressing a religion. Our leaders are not "practicing Christianity". Our current wars are little different from those of the last century, removing Hitler or Hussein, each a murderous tyrant exterminating people within his nation and attacking neighbors, responding to the attack on Pearl Harbor or the WTC with our military to fight them in their country.
But Sep makes the critical point, it is here and now that matters. Put all of ancient scripture aside, of any book, there are people making war on the USA. The fact that they have not yet accomplished another devastating blow like 9-11 is not because they are not trying to. There is a strong possibility that they may yet, would a small dirty nuke in Denver convince you? Islam and its world dominating warlike teachings is their tool, and works very well for their purposes. How would you have us defend ourselves against this threat?
September 9, 2010 at 9:17 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JustSomeJoe (anonymous) says...
John - do you think the average family in baghdad or kabul sees the distiction you do? "Oh, well they wanted to remove Saddam, so it's ok they bombed my neighborhood, killed my family, you have to break a few eggs to make an omlette". I guess the point is lost on some, as is obvious with most of this thread.
YVB - you have finally won me over, i get it. I will save all my old towels and sheets and wait for the day, soon I'm sure - have you heard the date yet, is it 9/11/11?, that islam will rise up in the US and then I will make good use of those old towels and sheets and my family will fit in. a religon will take over the longest standing democracy and the most powerful country in the world. Grab a ladder and feel free to climb out of the deep end. America is still here, right where you left it.
September 10, 2010 at 7:58 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
kielbasa (Matthew Stoddard) says...
YVB- Considering that pastor sent kids to school with t-shirts denouncing Islam (Islam is of the Devil...on t-shirts...on children), what made you think he wouldn't follow thru on burning the Koran? And why should be believe you denounce it when in the same paragraph you write:
"Scott, as far as me taking this "pathetic pastor" seriously, well, Hillary took him seriously, Obama took him seriously, General David Petraeus took him seriously, I must be on to something...but not you! No not you , because you hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil, RIGHT! Yeah, right!?! Evil is a force in the world. Face it!"
Last sentence tells me you might have been right there with him, marshmallows in hand, passing out copies of Obama's Kenyan Birth Certificate. (Hint- making them in crayon gives it away as not being real BC's.)
September 10, 2010 at 8:35 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Scott_Wedel (Scott Wedel) says...
Hamas is a nationalist organization which uses terrorism, not a religion. Might as well use IRA literature of the 70s to characterize Catholicism.
The question is not whether there are terrorists that claim to be Muslim or Christian, but whether there is something special about a religion that makes it fundamentally incapable of coexisting in American society. For many years Catholics were accused of not being patriotic Americans because they were obligated to follow the Pope. In reality, it has been shown that people of Catholic faith are willing to follow their own conscience when making political decisions. Most famous example of that was JFK.
Indonesia is the world's most populous Muslim country. Life there is not dominated by Muslims trying to remove all other religions from the country. Churches there are not worried about being shut down or face impossible challenges in opening a new church.
It is bizarre to be arguing Muslims that consist of a tiny minority in the USA are a threat to Christians here, but where they are the most populous they are not a big threat to Christians.
Islam is not a threat to the USA. Terrorists are a threat. If we see 200 million terrorists in Indonesia then we will be blinding ourselves to the real threats. If we think that building a mosque in the USA is a victory for terrorists then we have blinded ourselves to the real threats. Threats exist, but using the sort of logic argued by some then we should also be worrying about Germany, the followers of the Pope and so on.
September 10, 2010 at 10:40 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Sep (Brian Kotowski) says...
The reason no one is concerned about Germany or the Pope is because you’re comparing apples and oranges. Western Christianity grew beyond and out of its proselytize-by-force phase. Too much of modern-day Islam never has, and has no desire to. There is no Christian analogue to Sharia, and no Koranic equivalent to ‘love your enemy.’ Punish, subjugate, enslave, & murder – absolutely.
You're wrong about Hamas. Sharia is how it justifies its tactics. Hamas (along with Iran, Saudi Arabia, Ethiopia, Somalia, & the former Taliban) makes no distinction between religious law & secularism. Sharia is anti freedom, and couldn’t be more antithetical to our concepts of human rights. It debases & subjugates women, and is brutal beyond description to homosexuals and apostates.
You’ve admitted that terrorists are a threat. Presumably, you recognize that the terrorists are Muslims acting in the name of God. I keep waiting for the mythical “moderate Muslims” to condemn what is being done in their name. Fred Phelps & that clown in Florida are condemned, ridiculed, and marginalized in our culture. Bin Laden is celebrated in theirs. It is a striking cultural divide that argues, in my opinion, against your assertion that we’re not at odds with Islam. There are between 1.6 - 2.5 billion Muslims, depending on the source. How many of them want to see the Great Satan brought to his knees? 40%? 2%? Whatever the number, it’s a lot of Muslims.
The GZ mosque is not an existential threat. But the GZ Imam’s ties to Hamas and its murderous ideology deserves a good deal more scrutiny.
September 10, 2010 at 1:49 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jimmmmmm (anonymous) says...
Way off topic here, but this is too funny. For anyone-regardless of party affiliation. Don't worry about the source-only watch if you need a laugh. And judging by the past several dozen posts, it is my opinion you all need a good laugh.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/martin-...
September 10, 2010 at 4:14 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JohnFielding (John Fielding) says...
.
Joe,
It is tragic for innocents to be killed and wounded in these conflicts. But I think those average families in Kabul and Baghdad remember being brutally repressed by the Taliban and Saddam Hussein. They saw relatives and neighbors disappear, witnessed routine stoning of rape victims, and were forbidden to fly kites. While I do not discount their tragedy, I believe they would be the first to say that it is the lesser of two evils and that at least there is hope for a better future following the American interventions.
Does anyone remember the joy of the populace on the day of the liberation of Baghdad?
.
September 10, 2010 at 8:31 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JustSomeJoe (anonymous) says...
Yes John, I guess our bombs were sent by the "correct" god, eh? I'm sure their views are just like yours and they realize the destruction of their lives, families, and cities was the lesser of two evils.
September 11, 2010 at 8:48 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seeuski (anonymous) says...
Never forget!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0j2BUY...
A Mosque there?
Scott Wedel, It is quite sad that you live in a bubble.
"Christian high school girls were beheaded as a Ramadan "trophy" by Indonesian militants who conceived the idea after a visit to Philippines jihadists, a court heard yesterday."
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/...
September 11, 2010 at 9:52 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seeuski (anonymous) says...
Graphic photo evidence for the OJ jury types.
Warning: Graphic photos of the murdered and butchered young girls, Indonesian Christians killed by Muslims.
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/at...
What next Scott?
Any other anecdotes in defense of the religion of peace.
September 11, 2010 at 10:01 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seeuski (anonymous) says...
Rather than hearing it from Scott and others, how Christians are treated by Muslims in foreign countries, how about from an Arab Egyptian Christian in his own words and his feelings on the Cordoba issue?
http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/0...
"The groundbreaking of the Cordoba mosque at Ground Zero will be a symbol of Arab-Muslim Gazwa of New York City, as currently projected in the Arab media, and will directly lead to the Islamization of America."
"Lying is allowed, as stated in Islamic doctrine, when a believer (Muslim) is speaking to a non-believer (non-Muslim) for the purpose of achieving his goal, the advancement of Islam. When this convenient tool is utilized by a Muslim in speaking to the non-Muslim, it is especially effective in promoting acceptance of Islam."
September 11, 2010 at 10:44 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JustSomeJoe (anonymous) says...
ah YVB, never prouder to be an american the day baghdad fell, eh? I'm sure the use of force was necessary to root out those WMD, right? Are you still looking for the weapons, sorta like OJ is still looking for the real killer? Or did you move on to reason two or three for the invasion, just as good, right?
Since we are the most powerful nation in the world our bombs are always on the side of the right and just? you would have fit in well during the crusades and the spanish inquisition. You are just as fanatical as the the other side you preach against.
We really love the Iraqis. To bomb you is to love you, it's how you express your Christianity.
September 11, 2010 at 1:54 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seeuski (anonymous) says...
http://www.husseinandterror.com/
September 11, 2010 at 2:55 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Jeff_Kibler (inactive user) says...
So, what were they going to do with 500 metric tons of yellow cake?
Don't forget the artillery shells filled with sarin gas.
September 11, 2010 at 2:55 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Scott_Wedel (Scott Wedel) says...
YVB,
Do you even bother to read your source material? From the same article:
Three Christian men were executed there last month for their role in a massacre of Muslims in 2000
So yes the murder of innocents is completely wrong. But the article is about these guys being on trial so they are not being honored by the vast majority of Muslims, but are being prosecuted for their crimes against Christians. And the religious strife is going both ways there. Horrendous acts of violence have also been done by Christians against Muslims.
Hardly the sort of story that suggests that Muslims, in general, are a threat to the USA.
And you think some guy's story about Muslims is that important? Want me to dig up stories on white supremacists in the USA quoting the Bible to justify violence against minorities? That has been such a long tradition in the USA that it should be common knowledge. KKK leaders consistently quoted the Bible to explain their racism.
Far too much evil has been in the name of every religion to ever win the argument that some religion is good while some other religion is evil.
September 11, 2010 at 6:51 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JohnFielding (John Fielding) says...
.
Scott you and Joe seem to think someone is trying to make the point that we are good and right because we are Christians and they are bad and wrong because they are Muslims. That is not it at all. The point is that a significant percentage of the worlds people are being conditioned to hate Western culture and America in particular.We are characterized as evil for our promotion and defense of freedom of religion, equal rights for women and minorities, and freedom of expression and thought. Those values are not religious, but they are the ones we are willing to die to defend, yes and to provide a chance for others to achieve. If Islamic people are truly given the opportunity to live free from fear of their own zealots they too may be able to evolve beyond the medieval phase with which they are currently blighted, and the peaceful teachings of Mohammad can be celebrated while the destructive ones are discounted as the product of ancient times.
Joe, while we are considering the grief of families accidentally harmed by war, let us not forget those who grieve for their lost sons who died as soldiers. Some may temper their grief when they consider that their son died as a suicide bomber and thus is a martyr. Others may console themselves with the fact that their son s a hero because he laid down his life to fight those who would use religion to recruit suicide bombers.
If you honestly equate the two there is no hope of reasoning with you.
.
September 11, 2010 at 9:42 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Sep (Brian Kotowski) says...
John kinda beat me to it, but to continue in that vein:
The world-wide violence the GZ Imam warns will result if his proposed mosque is moved – who do you think the perpetrators will be? Unhappy druids? Who killed Theo Van Gogh and why? Why is Salmon Rushdie still in hiding with his bodyguards? Who destroyed the 6th century Buddhist monuments, and why? The global attacks on innocent people Interpol warns will take place if the Florida dipstick has his barbeque – who will be shedding the blood? http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTR... Who was responsible for the rioting, firebombing, assaults & murder over the Muhammad cartoons - effing cartoons! – just like the carnage in the wake of Piss Christ & The Last Temptation of Christ. Oh, wait a minute…
It shouldn’t be too difficult to identify the common thread, and it’s stunning that there are those who are unable to make an obvious value judgment.
September 12, 2010 at 7:45 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seeuski (anonymous) says...
"Assailants stab, beat Christian worshipers outside of Indonesia's capital"
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/0...
Just more from the assimilating religion of peace warning the Christians not to worship.
These are typical daily events in many Countries around the World and including Europe where Jews must have extra security to protect worshipers against Islamic tolerance(sarcasm).
I just saw this morning that Imam Rauf says the Muslim World is watching and we must build that Mosque there and something to the effect that it pits the US against the Worlds Muslims if it is moved. This goes along with his earlier statement that the Muslim World would be inflamed if it is not built there, a threat? Or an olive branch?
September 13, 2010 at 8:58 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Sep (Brian Kotowski) says...
2010-09-13 21:08:53
SRINAGAR, Indian-controlled Kashmir, Sept. 13 (Xinhua) -- At least 14 people including a policeman were killed and dozens wounded Monday in Indian-controlled Kashmir, after police fired warning shots to control the violent protests against the alleged desecration of the holy Quran in the United States, locals said...
...Apart from Srinagar, the region's summer capital, the protests and violent clashes against desecration were received from Budgam, Tangmarg, Bandipora, Charar-i-sherif, Pampore and other towns.
The irate protesters in Budgam and Tangmarg towns clashed with police and set ablaze several government offices.
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010...
September 13, 2010 at 7:02 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seeuski (anonymous) says...
I don't know about you but this must be seen or we are all doomed???
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EadHcg...
September 14, 2010 at 9:02 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seeuski (anonymous) says...
Interesting 2 month tabulation of activities by "the religion of peace".
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/ind...
September 14, 2010 at 9:52 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Scott_Wedel (Scott Wedel) says...
So count all violence in areas of conflict as Islamic violence? Even when the victims are also probably Islamic? Brilliant stuff.
Islam with 1.2 billion followers is waging a war against Christianity by killing 10 times or so more Muslims than Christians?
Who is doing their war planning? Rumsfeld?
September 14, 2010 at 11:31 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seeuski (anonymous) says...
Here is a nice video for you Scott since you have walked from the idea that Muslims are peaceful in Indonesia, did you see the photos of the beheaded high school girls?
They were Christian.
http://www.tangle.com/view_video?view...
I can keep this up forever because they have been Jihadists forever, there is so much material out there.
You have none but your words of dhimmitude.
September 14, 2010 at 2:43 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Sep (Brian Kotowski) says...
I think I posted a link here a couple three months ago, to a report about a Seattle cartoonist who had proposed an “everybody draw Muhammad day.” Her name used to be Molly Norris. She has recently changed it and gone into hiding, at the insistence of the FBI. The cartoonist formerly known as Molly Norris has been added to an Islamic hit list assembled by a Yemeni Imam. http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/09/16/...
Maybe she can hide at Justice Breyer’s house (in case you missed it, he opined this week that Koran-burning is analogous to shouting “fire” in a crowded movie theater). One wonders how supportive Breyer is of UN Resolution 62-154, which calls upon all nations to criminalize criticism of Islam; and is championed by all 56 members of the Organisation of the Islamic Conference. Not just a handful of lunatics in a cave, but every self-proclaimed Muslim nation on earth.
Scott writes: “So count all violence in areas of conflict as Islamic violence?” No. Why are you so reluctant to characterize violence carried out by Muslims in the name of God as “Islamic violence”?
The rioting in the wake of the Pope’s (quite scholarly) address wherein he suggested a link between violence and Islam – “Islamic violence”, or no?
The rioting and deaths in Kashmir last week, in response to the Florida whackjob – “Islamic violence”, or no?
The carnage over the Danish cartoons – “Islamic violence”, or no?
The murder of Theo Van Gogh – “Islamic violence”, or no?
The destruction of the Buddhist monuments in Afghanistan – “Islamic violence”, or no?
The world wide “backlash” the GZ Imam warns will result from the relocation of his mosque – “Islamic violence”, or no?
Salmon Rushdie’s death sentence – “Islamic violence”, or no?
If not "Islamic violence", how would you label it instead?
September 17, 2010 at 11:04 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Sep (Brian Kotowski) says...
Incidentally, the Yemeni Imam who says Molly Norris “should be taken as a prime target of assassination” is actually an American-born Muslim called Anwar al-Awlaki; who was hailed by the New York Times after 9-11 as part of “a new generation of Muslim leader capable of merging East and West.” http://www.nytimes.com/2001/10/19/us/...
How’s that working out?
September 17, 2010 at 2:51 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
sledneck (anonymous) says...
Heres the "empty gitmo" plan:
Put 'em in groups of 10. Load 'em on planes and fly 'em into the mosque closest to wherever the next peace-loving islamic type throw their next bombing-tantrum.
At that rate gitmo will be closed in a matter of weeks.
September 17, 2010 at 3:34 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JustSomeJoe (anonymous) says...
Soooo, what's the end game on a war on islam? If we declare war on Islam, how does it end? Go ahead ski, sledneck, sep, YVB, what's it look like? A fence around the country with a religon check point? A fence around Islamic countries not letting them out? Please, instead of no, what's your plan?
September 20, 2010 at 7:27 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seeuski (anonymous) says...
They are at war with us, ask them.
September 20, 2010 at 7:43 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JustSomeJoe (anonymous) says...
come on Ski, you have answers for everything else. Tell us how to solve the problem. You have all the answers to everything else it seems, tell us how to win the war, how does it end?
Sledneck favors some sort of social justice death penalty for those in Gitmo (his social justice not mine). I'm sure he's got a plan for all the other muslims that should be in Gitmo. You've stated many times that you can't tell the difference between a regular muslim and a fanatic, they all want to kill us. So, McConnell gets elected president and being the big booster you are, you just got Secretary of Defense. What's the solution?
September 20, 2010 at 8:36 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
MrTaiChi (anonymous) says...
I’ll take a cut at that knowing that the response will be more sarcasm and ridicule.
Western civilization has been groping for a self preserving response to Islam for 1,400 years, and the best minds haven’t come up with the solution to an aggressive religion that combines political objectives with piety and unashamedly accepts that those ends do justify violent and murderous means.
1. accept as reality that literal Islam is at war with us even if the reverse is not the case.
2. eliminate immigration and visas for more than a week from any nation in which terrorist cells exist planning attacks on America or Americans. (This would give those governments, like Yemen and Pakistan, additional incentives to find and eliminate terrorists, while at present they just bleed us for aid to combat them, which will dry up if they are eliminated. The Saudis aren’t going to like it, but its time for the middle east to be more sensitive to our feelings for a change) Even if this means no immigration from Norway, a ten year trial could be tried.
3. Require that all immigrants to the United States swear an oath that they support the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which acknowledges the freedom to make a religious conversion without punishment and outlines most of the other values that we in the West consider fundamental human rights. (No Muslim government has subscribed the UNUDHR)
4. If a naturalized American citizen is found to have committed an act of terrorism against the United States or it’s citizens or allied countries anywhere in the world, that his citizenship be stripped and on the conclusion of his criminal sentence, that he be deported to the nation of his origin or whichever country in the world will take him.
5. That if reasonable grounds exist to believe that incitements to violence against the United States or its citizens are being made in any church, mosque or temple, that the sermons thereafter be monitored for content by the Department of Justice, and if such reasonable grounds are established to be true that the religious facility be closed permanently and the religious leader responsible for issuing such exhortations to violence be prohibited from serving in any capacity as a religious leader anywhere in the United States.
6. The President should make it unequivocally clear to moderate Muslims that as Americans they must accept fundamental human rights and oppose, if necessary, as no longer relevant in the 21st Century, inconsistent provisions of the Koran or Sharia Law. American Muslim temporizing and evasiveness should not be acceptable, much less politically correct.
September 21, 2010 at 9:06 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
MrTaiChi (anonymous) says...
We must not close our minds to encouraging genuine overtures of interfaith cooperation from American Muslims but must guard against projecting our benevolent feelings and good intentions onto them as their feelings and intentions. It is reasonable to ask them to publically disavow and to preach in their mosques that those aspects of Sharia that conflict with the American Constitution and laws are not valid in modern times. The growing disquiet with Islam in America is because no genuine reassurances are being perceived, and in fact, the opposite.
September 21, 2010 at 9:08 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seeuski (anonymous) says...
justsome,
Thank you for putting words in my mouth for which I never spoke.
I will make this simple for I sadly believe you are naive to the whole picture when it comes to the Muslim population, it's culture, global designs and ambitions along with what the Koran means to it's followers and what it means to the Infidels like you and me, that is assuming you are still one.
First of all, we never declared war on Islam, they declared it on us while Clinton was President and the majority of Americans were not paying attention.
They proved it with several terrorist attacks leading up to the wake-up call that America received on 9/11.
Second, I posted the Government evidence from the Holyland Foundation trial which outlined the intention of the Islamic movement. You may choose to laugh off the Muslim Brotherhoods manifesto but that won't do us any good when the next attack comes that dwarfs 9/11.
Third, without listing everything that Obama has done to hide the Jihad against the USA that Islam is involved in, I would end the references to this problem as the " overseas contingency operation" or "man caused disasters" and call it what it is and direct the necessary resources to fight it wherever it is, here or Internationally.
Bottom line I would employ the required amount of force to protect the Citizens of the USA.
Last, there will never be any way to declare victory against this movement, just proper and necessary actions to keep it at bay while we wait for Islam to morph into the peaceful religion that it claims to be and join the 21st century along with the rest of the faiths that already made that transformation to peaceful existence.
September 21, 2010 at 11:13 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Sep (Brian Kotowski) says...
I guess it’s my turn.
1. Acknowledge there’s a problem. I remain curious how Scott & the rest of you are able to overlook or dismiss the innumerable present-day and world-wide incidents cited here, of explicitly and religiously motivated violence; deployed as specific reprisals to those perceived to have criticized, insulted, or belittled Islam. Wanna make a million dollars? Kill the Danish cartoonist who drew the original Muhammad cartoons - there’s a Pakistani Imam who’ll be only too happy to pay. Recognizing there are Muslims all over the world who wish to impose Sharia, and are willing to threaten, intimidate, and kill to make it happen, is the starting point. If you can’t acknowledge that, there’s little point in continuing the discussion.
2. Enact federal legislation prohibiting any American court from ever considering Sharia law as a replacement for, or adjunct to, American law. See: S.D. v. M.J.R. (N.J. Super. Ct. App. Div.).
S.D. & M.J.R. are a Moroccan couple in Jersey, whose marriage was pre-arranged. She was an adolescent when wed, and repeatedly raped, beaten, & brutalized by her husband, for extended periods. The Jersey district judge ruled that hubby wasn’t guilty of anything, since his interpretation of Sharia sanctions the behavior, and penalizing him would constitute an infringement of his religious beliefs. The appeals court overturned the decision in July. The federal legislation I suggest would also remove from the bench any judge like the Jersey district idiot.
There are less extreme occurrences: remember the blind college student excused with credit from his class (Minnesota or Wisconsin, IIRC), because his seeing eye dog offended the Muslim students? The school didn’t have the spine to lay down the law: under the ADA, the blind student and his dog are here to stay. If you don’t like it and wish to leave, that’s your prerogative. Instead, elitist adherence to PC allowed Sharia to trump American law & common sense, and the blind student was shown the door. It is an erosion that should not be permitted. The federal legislation I propose would up the ante for these kinds of infractions.
3. Immigration reform and incitements to violence – Mr. Tai Chi has admirably weighed in here. I will append one specific to his general recommendations: that Saudi funding of American mosques deserves government scrutiny. The House of Saud is the largest funder of wahhabism and militant mosques & madrassahs. The ones they’ve established here should be infiltrated & surveilled.
4. Stop trying to coddle & appease Muslims, any more than we try to coddle and appease Christians. The so-called moderate Muslims, presumably, are willing to practice their beliefs within the parameters of present-day concepts of human rights. The extremists never will, and we won’t convince them to - regardless of how many blind college students we kick out of class.
September 21, 2010 at 5:51 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Sep (Brian Kotowski) says...
5. Cease sugar coating the problem, and call evil by its name. Make clear – at all levels of government - that no aspect of Sharia totalitarianism will ever be tolerated here.
6. Beyond that, I have no “end game” specifics; except that we need to take the long view. The Cold War took over 40 years to win. There is no quick fix. It will require generations.
Perhaps we can learn from our predecessors. One of the most important documents to come out of the Cold War was NSC-68: United States Objectives and Programs for National Security, produced by the Truman administration http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/mjacobs... . A relevant excerpt:
"The Soviet Union unlike previous aspirants to hegemony is animated by a new fanatic faith antithetical to our own and seeks to impose its absolute authority over the rest of the world. Conflict has therefore become endemic and is waged on the part of the Soviet Union by violent or non-violent methods in accordance with the dictates of expediency. The whole success of the proposed program hangs ultimately in recognition by this government, the American people and all free peoples that the Cold War is in fact a real war in which the survival of the free world is at stake. Essential prerequisites to success are consultations with congressional leaders designed to make the program the object of non-partisan legislative support, and a presentation to the public of a full explanation of the facts and implications of the present international situation. The prosecution of the program will require of us all the ingenuity, sacrifice and unity demanded by the vital importance of the issue and the tenacity to persevere until our national objectives have been attained."
Issued by President Truman in 1950. Quite a bit more thoughtful, in my opinion, than W & Obama’s platitudes about “a religion of peace”, and BHO’s directive for Muslim-outreach by NASA. But it all begins with my first point: acknowledge that there’s a problem. I’m not sure that you do.
JustSomeJoe:
Turnabout’s fair play. What are your proposals? Enquiring minds, and all that.
September 21, 2010 at 5:53 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
trump_suit (anonymous) says...
You guys need to figure out that posting a youtube video does not qualify as a news source. I can search youtube and find videos to document almost anything under the sun from the most obvious scandals to the most obscure partisan issue there is a yourtube video to support it.
Mr Taichi - your comments are always well thought out and understandable. I may not agree with your viewpoint all of the time but I like reading your point of view. Please continue.
There can be no doubt that radical islam is at war with America. How our nation can best prosecute that war remains in question. Going into Iraq did little if anything to secure our country or advance our cause in that war. Changing the Consittution in ways that allow religious/racial discriminiation is wrong. Taking away our citizens rights to privacy is wrong. Those kinds of changes will damage our country more that the enemy we already face.
September 21, 2010 at 6:20 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JustSomeJoe (anonymous) says...
Sep - I'll stand pat with the Bill of Rights, our existing military and police forces, and the end of our colonial imperialism. I don't see the same problems you do or the same people lurking in the shadows. I also don't equate all muslims with Sharia law (hardly the case - not even close) just as I don't equate all catholics with being pederasts.
September 21, 2010 at 6:37 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JustSomeJoe (anonymous) says...
postscript - I don't belive we need a war on Islam, nor do I believe the Islamic world is at war with us.
Ski - You've answered every query or comments about islam or muslims with some sort of link to the MB or some other fringe group. All your posts, don't have to go any further than your last, assume all muslims act as one.
From your last post " First of all, we never declared war on Islam, they declared it on us while Clinton was President and the majority of Americans were not paying attention. They proved it with several terrorist attacks leading up to the wake-up call that America received on 9/11. "
September 21, 2010 at 6:43 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
MrTaiChi (anonymous) says...
Why Islamic aggression was dormant essentially from Omdurman until the creation of the Israeli state is not understood by me. There must be multiple reasons related to the Ottoman empire.
The realization of the threat to the rest of the world is not new. Not one of the first rank of American presidents, but perhaps one who spent more time overseas and therefore had a broader view of the world in his time, and arguably the best educated president, John Quincy Adams said this:
“…he [Muhammad] declared undistinguishing and exterminating war, as a part of his religion, against all the rest of mankind…The precept of the Koran is, perpetual war against all who deny, that Mahomet is the prophet of God.”
And here's the cultural nut that has to be cracked: in Islam it is taught that to be insulted is worse than to be murdered. In Islam 'slander' is a statement
critical of Islam, regardless of it's truth or whether it describes an undisputed historical event such as the prophet marrying a six year old child and consumating the marriage when she was nine. As an aside, this event has prevented the enactment of 'age of consent' laws in modern Muslim countries, as literalists view such legislation as a repudiation of Muhammad's behavior, and as to them he was the last prophet of God, it is tantamount to blasphamy. The nut is, will we define our reaction to this cultural change by the sensitivities of the aggressive culture, or will we acknowledge that we can't reconcile two desirable goals. Can we accomodate the sensibilities of a new type of immigrant and preserve our modern welcoming traditions or will such passivity in the face of aggressive cultural change cause us to lose other values that are at least equally important.
No one has the wisdom to fashion an absolute answer to this modern phenomenon. Some problems have no solution. In the meantime, we have to defend our culture, our freedom and the heritage of western civilization. I'm foresquare with Sep on that.
September 22, 2010 at 8:59 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JohnFielding (John Fielding) says...
.
Thank you, Sep and Mr.TC, I can add nothing except my support.
As was the case with the Mormons theocracy and polygamy, it has been established that the right to religious freedom is not absolute. If one wished to re-institute the Mayan practice of human sacrifice it would not be allowed even though one cold find persons willing to die on the altar and a mob of eager attendants to the ceremony.
The modern preaching and practice of Islam in a great many areas includes human sacrifice by willing participants. It also includes murder of unsuspecting bystanders. There is no reason such teachings or support for them should not be prohibited in this nation.
.
September 22, 2010 at 9:32 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Sep (Brian Kotowski) says...
One other observation:
The Bill of Rights has been cited in this discussion. The media lavished attention on fewer than 50 whackjobs in Florida, and their antics stirred the government at its highest levels. The President himself commented publicly, pleading that they not exercise their First Amendment rights.
Molly Norris’ First Amendment rights have placed her under a death sentence, and it’s not even a blip on the radar. On the one hand, the media pulls out all the stops; fueling global anxiety over some fringe lunatic’s possible affront to tender Muslim sensibilities. On the other, an American citizen has fled to avoid being murdered, and the media & our elected leaders are silent. Terry Jones talks about burning some books & earns world wide scorn and condemnation. Anwar al-Awlaki calls for the murder of an American woman and gets a pass. It is not unreasonable to draw the following conclusion: We should not insult Islam. Those who do deserve what they get, and “stand[ing] pat on the Bill of Rights” is acceptable right up until Muslims choose to kill those who offend them.
September 22, 2010 at 10:53 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seeuski (anonymous) says...
Two sides to the same event as reported by the Liberal Washington Post and the Israeli account with the truth as to the criminality of the dead Palestinian.
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/New...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/...
And another story of how women are treated by their Muslim hosts in the Palestinian territories.
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/New...
For years our media has mostly portrayed Israel as the bully in these conflicts and much of the American public receives constant doses of brainwashing aimed at creating sympathy for the so called "occupied" Palestinians.
September 23, 2010 at 9:25 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Sep (Brian Kotowski) says...
Women Lashed for Selling Rice During Ramadan in Moderate Muslim Indonesia: Shout from crowd: “Add to it. Let her feel it.”
http://www.thejakartaglobe.com/news/t...
I first weighed in on this forum when that guy (last summer?) was hauling a large wooden cross across the country. Oh, the caterwauling and ridicule! Just think of sound & fury that would resulted had he called for the public lashing of those who ate meat or failed to fast between meals on Ash Wednesday or Good Friday.
When the fabled moderate Muslims do it, crickets chirp.
October 2, 2010 at 12:44 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seeuski (anonymous) says...
This toilet newspaper is now showcasing the Socialist/Communist/Unionists as moderate peace loving, job caring, America respecting Citizens.
Anyone who watched the rhetoric yesterday from the dais witnessed the anger of the Progressives who see that the average American is awakening to the radicals and their agenda for this Country.
The speakers, especially the College aged ones, showed what nanny state kids expect from the Government, US. Free College, guaranteed jobs, guaranteed wages, pensions etc. etc.
They are the ones that will be rioting in the near future when they don't get what they want, much like those in Greece, Spain, France, Ireland etc. are today.
Great!
One Nation proves at their own website that they are a group of Socialist and avowed Communist organizations along with the thug Unions.
See for yourself.
Just check out the scroll on the right side of the page, Communists, Socialists, Unions, they are all there.
http://www.onenationworkingtogether.o...
Yea, I know what Country I have lived in and it was never meant to become what these gangs want, Socialism.
October 3, 2010 at 9:12 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seeuski (anonymous) says...
Muslim Extremists Murder Christian Family in Pakistan
http://www.compassdirect.org/english/...
October 5, 2010 at 9:22 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
housepoor (anonymous) says...
"The speakers, especially the College aged ones, showed what nanny state kids expect from the Government, US. Free College, guaranteed jobs, guaranteed wages, pensions etc. etc."
Isn't that what the baby boomers got?
October 5, 2010 at 11:34 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seeuski (anonymous) says...
I never got mine, is that what you young kids were taught by the Progressive teachers you learned from?
October 5, 2010 at 11:54 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Sep (Brian Kotowski) says...
Islamists Kill Pregnant Woman & Children For Protesting Public Beatings http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articl...
"Harardhere, Somalia (AHN) Four people have killed and more than 12 others injured as Hizbul Islam militants opened fire in the Haradhere district in Somalia’s Mudug region on Thursday.
The death and injuries occurred when a group of people congregated and protested at a public square where the militants were beating the village’s teenagers.
Pregnant woman and children are among those killed, a witness told a local radio station.
The witness indicated that Hizbul Islam fighters accused the teenagers of watching pornographic videos on their mobile phones."
Whatever you do, don't mention that the killers are Muslims. It might upset Whoopi & Joy.
October 16, 2010 at 4:22 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Sep (Brian Kotowski) says...
UK students taught how to chop off hands: BBC
http://www.smh.com.au/world/uk-studen...
"Pupils at Islamic schools across Britain are being taught how to chop off a criminal's hand and that Jews are conspiring to take over the world, a BBC investigation has found.
Up to 5000 pupils aged between six and 18 are being taught Sharia law punishments using "weekend-school" text-books which claim those who do not believe in Islam will be subjected to "hellfire" in death...
...Young pupils are warned that the punishment for engaging in homosexual acts is death by stoning, burning with fire or throwing off a cliff and that the "main goal" of the Jews is to "have control over the world and its resources."
The schools in question are all Saudi operations. Saudi Arabia is the largest financial supporter of this kind of extremism. Most of the Taliban were educated in Saudi madrassahs in Pakistan. It is discouraging that the it's BBC - not the government - shining the light on this bs. Saudi-funded madrassahs in the West should be infiltrated & surveiled.
November 22, 2010 at 3:27 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
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