Gary Hofmeister: Tipping point - are we there?

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My historical idol and alter-ego John Adams famously said that "facts are stubborn things." I concur. I also think that if shared honestly, people of good intentions with good faith could come to an agreement on very difficult issues even in difficult times. With a majority of Americans, this approach is the only way to reach consensus. Indeed, when I was a congressional nominee, one of my most favorite experiences was to present an argument on which I knew my audience took a contrarian viewpoint and listen to the feedback afterward. Almost always, it was something on the order of, "well, we don't agree on everything but I appreciate your stating your views and being willing to hear our side."

Of course, there were those who walked out as soon as they discerned we disagreed (abortion immediately comes to mind). Nevertheless, unless your mindset runs to the Banana Republic prescription of coups and/or assassinations to bring about your desired outcome, persuasion and open debate is the democratic way. Sometimes we win; sometimes we lose. Although the late night comics have us guffawing often in chagrin at the rubes stopped on the street who don't have a clue why July Fourth is a holiday or can't name the last two presidents, if one believes in democracy then one must still assume that the people will make the right choices most of the time.

I believe it. And the town hall meetings of the past few weeks have shown that when the people get awakened enough to turn off the TVs and actually join a demonstration to make a point, the empirical evidence is hard to deny. These folks along with the Tea Party demonstrators appear to be as close to non-partisan as one could find in these extremely partisan times. Some of us who have been involved deeply in the process for years have admittedly pejoratively referred to them as the "mushy middle." This is the 20 percent or so of voters who sway with the times in deciding just which lever to pull. Ordinarily, these folks only pay sufficient attention to the political process the last few weeks before the election or when dramatic events are unfolding.

Well, those events are upon us. The prospect of health care, which is one-sixth of our economy, being given to the bureaucrats; the government takeover of major corporations; the obvious mindset of the ruling party to get government involved in every aspect of our lives; and perhaps most of all, the outrageous spending that portends disaster for our country's future financial health has stirred the sleeping giant.

I have never heard the words "fear" and "scared" so many times as in the past year when it became evident that Obama would win. These are people who have lived their daily lives making decisions on how to spend their hard-earned money wisely. They can't fathom a government that appears to have abandoned all fiscal responsibility. They just know there has to be an endgame to multi-trillion dollar deficits and it isn't pretty.

Nancy Pelosi and many on the left can attempt to demonize these concerned Americans, but it only infuriates them more. We are a funny people - fiercely independent in wanting to live our lives free of bureaucratic interference yet also demanding ever more services that only come from more losses of our financial and other freedoms. But like most things in life, it's a matter of limitations. How much government is enough or too much? We appear to be close to answering that questions - right now.

Gary Hofmeister is a Steamboat Springs businessman. He is a director of the Conservative Leadership Council of Northwest Colorado and a former Republican nominee for Congress in the 10th District of Indiana. He made 18 trips to the former USSR to teach democratic-capitalism during the 1990s.

Comments

knee_dropper 5 years, 6 months ago

Yes, the people that show up to see Obama speak with AR-15's on their back, compare the health care bill to Nazi policies and disrupt town hall meetings with shouting are the "mushy middle." The shouting protesters are pulling some of the same tactics that code Pink did to protest the Iraq war; I don't think anyone would try and classify them as the "mushy middle" then or now. The behaviors that many on the right deemed anti-American and unpatriotic have become exactly the opposite now, it's kinda funny in a ridiculous way.

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Troutguy 5 years, 6 months ago

The Govt. abandoned all fiscal responsibility? Um, I believe that happened the moment Mr. Bush and company decided to invade Iraq. So far, we have spent 661 Billion dollars fighting this pointless war. That sure would have gone a long way in today's times. In 2000, our budget surpluses were 236 billion dollars. Pres. Bush managed to blow through that in his first year in office. By 2004, we had a 415 billion dollar deficit. Sure would have loved to read a commentary like this from you back then, Mr. Hofmeister.

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seeuski 5 years, 6 months ago

Lets just agree that you guys like what the Government is doing with our money and we on the other side, which includes many who voted for Obama including Dem's, I's and Repub's and the polls are proof, don't like what the Government is doing with our money. Lets agree that you guys want to give the Government the reigns with our healthcare system and we want to see tort reform, portability, interstate competition between insurance companies and clinics for low income patients that will take the place of ER's.(look at the success that has had in Texas as opposed to the single payer system that failed in Tenn known as Tenncare). Lets just agree that we don't want to be punished with Cap and Tax and you guys are on board with the "dedevelopment" movement of the AGW crowd which wants to cut our co2 output by 80%.

Yea we are fearful and scared of what these policies will do to our future existence and I didn't even mention the unconstitutional theft of Chrysler and GM by the President from the Bondholders and gifted to the UAW and Canada. The bailouts, the continuing funding of ACORN (what a great group) with our money. We want to stop the spreading of the wealth (reparations). I almost forgot about all the Presidents czars.

So we can agree on all that stuff and get on with the important task of watching FOOTBALL. GO SKINS.

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Chuck McConnell 5 years, 6 months ago

Yes, FEAR!

If you are not afraid of the radicals obama is surrounding himself with you are not paying attention. I'm afraid of Jones who declaired himself a comunist, I'm afraid of Cass Sunstein who wants animals to have human lawyers in law suits against humans not to mention forced sterilization and I'm afraid of Mr. Lloyd who thinks Hugo Chavez is a brave, progressive revolutionary. I'm also afraid of ACORN -- an organization obama has directed over $9 billion toward in the so-called stimulus plan and who try to help hookers set up shop with under age Salvidorians. This is not to mention the 400,000 phony "voters" they dug up to help obama's election.

Oh, yeah, and how about the phony outrage Pelosi showed when a Bob Wilson told the truth for a change during obama's little monolog last week? Doesn't it matter to you on the left that Wilson was accurate -- the dems. had no citizenship verification mechanisms for people applying for medical help under obama's plan. Where was Pelosi when President Bush was loudly booed a couple of years ago?

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Scott Wedel 5 years, 6 months ago

I suppose the Obama administration is Rorschach test.

The left look at the Republican governors and congressman in his administration and see a president too soft to take his popularity to ram through programs and hasn't even allowed gays in the military and so on.

The right see a foreign born moslem radical socialist communist nazi President advocating death and economic collapse.

The mushy middle sees two extremes that both appear to care more about their political games than the country. That Bush made terrible mistakes and Obama has not turned things around.

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freerider 5 years, 6 months ago

Gary you are pathetic ...fear mongering is the mantra of the republicon party ...Carl Rove and his minions are the scum of the Earth ...they have nothing productive to say they just play on the same old mind game as always... and fiscal responsibilty ?? we had a surplus before George the moron Bush took office...geeez you spin doctors like a good web of lies and twist your own BS in your favor when so desired...anybody can play that game...The repiglicons are a dying breed hanging on with dear life shouting loudly as there ship sinks...when the best you can do is oxy Rush Limbaugh , Ann Coulter , Pat Buchanon , Glenn Beck it's no wonder people are jumping ship

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dave fisher 5 years, 6 months ago

don't forget Caribou Barbie, 'rider.

adulation of the lowest common denominator IS something to fear, and Palin is a master of it.

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Fred Duckels 5 years, 6 months ago

We would be in good shape here if votes were weighted by the political IQ of the voter. Fortunately for the left, voting has no such factor.

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seeuski 5 years, 6 months ago

Fear mongering by the President is the most egregious act of any leader. If "we don't pass my Government healthcare bill people are going to die." If we "don't pass my stimulus bill we will have unemployment over 8%." If "we don't takeover GM they will go bankrupt."

With this stellar track record we can't help but trust what he says or else. There is nothing to fear but fear itself and Obama.

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seeuski 5 years, 6 months ago

SEC. 123. HEALTH BENEFITS ADVISORY COMMITTEE.

  (a) Establishment-CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

        9
        (1) IN GENERAL- There is established a private-public advisory committee which shall be a panel of medical and other experts to be known as the Health Benefits Advisory Committee to recommend covered benefits and essential, enhanced, and premium plans.CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

        1
        (2) CHAIR- The Surgeon General shall be a member and the chair of the Health Benefits Advisory Committee.CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

        19
        (3) MEMBERSHIP- The Health Benefits Advisory Committee shall be composed of the following members, in addition to the Surgeon General:CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

              10
              (A) 9 members who are not Federal employees or officers and who are appointed by the President.CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

              (B) 9 members who are not Federal employees or officers and who are appointed by the Comptroller General of the United States in a manner similar to the manner in which the Comptroller General appoints members to the Medicare Payment Advisory Commission under section 1805(c) of the Social Security Act.CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

              4
              (C) Such even number of members (not to exceed 8) who are Federal employees and officers, as the President may appoint.

http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h3200/text

As the President may appoint..... Geeeee that panel wouldn't decide anything about what is covered would they? Could that be like rationing?

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seeuski 5 years, 6 months ago

SEC. 124. PROCESS FOR ADOPTION OF RECOMMENDATIONS; ADOPTION OF BENEFIT STANDARDS.

  (a) Process for Adoption of Recommendations-CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

        1
        (1) REVIEW OF RECOMMENDED STANDARDS- Not later than 45 days after the date of receipt of benefit standards recommended under section 123 (including such standards as modified under paragraph (2)(B)), the Secretary shall review such standards and shall determine whether to propose adoption of such standards as a package.CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

        (2) DETERMINATION TO ADOPT STANDARDS- If the Secretary determines--CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

              1
              (A) to propose adoption of benefit standards so recommended as a package, the Secretary shall, by regulation under section 553 of title 5, United States Code, propose adoption such standards; orCommentsClose CommentsPermalink

              (B) not to propose adoption of such standards as a package, the Secretary shall notify the Health Benefits Advisory Committee in writing of such determination and the reasons for not proposing the adoption of such recommendation and provide the Committee with a further opportunity to modify its previous recommendations and submit new recommendations to the Secretary on a timely basis.

http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h3200/text

Bureaucrats at the helm, wheres my Doctor?

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kathy foos 5 years, 6 months ago

Much of your editorial seems true,but something that doesn't sound right is thinking mushy voting is caused by last minute,uninformed people.I myself am mushy and that is because Im listening to a superbowl of brainwashing from the media at all times.I retain my freewill at the polls and if they went back to one vote,one person,and eliminate the major partys battle maybe the dust will clear and people will see what is best to do.Without following a major party there is not a real chance to win,there for people follow the herd like cows even when they know that there might be problems with their own party also.I think it is time for one vote for every citizen,get rid of the dead weight partys and let every one stand on their own merits.With the media different now and communication access so advanced,the party system has outlived its time and some of the problems could be mended in communication conflicts,if people talk one to one.Not one to the party then the real canidate,They are too influential and dirty.Its just confusing indeed to figure all the right paths for voting,especially when all I hear is abunch of broken promises and bull,I maybe mushy but I am not apathetic.

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wyprof 5 years, 6 months ago

Mr. Hofmeister: 1) You have never heard the words "fear" and "scared" because a) nobody was paid to say them before the health care debate; and b) the US has never had an African American president before. Yes, this is all about racial hatred. Read: Joe Wilson.

2) As a Republican "expert" you should look at the record. The US government's penchant for massive deficits started with your hero Ronald Reagan. Since he was elected in 1980, we've had (you could count 'em) a grand total of 9 years of Democratic presidency and 20 of Repulican. That doesn't even consider the majority party rule in Congress during that time either. And the only meaningful fiscal responsibility occured under Clinton - a Democratic president. You could look that up.

3) It's ironic that most of the conservatives I talk to are totally against reforming health care. However, they are perfectly happy to take their Social Security or Medicare check when the government offers it. A true conservative, not just a "fear" talker, would return it to the government. Any takers? Also, I'd like to see a count of how many conservatives (mostly older folks like you) have NOT had health care over the years. As with anything else in this world, if you've never experienced the problem, what makes you an expert on it?

For the record: this comes from Perry Ninger in Wyoming.

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Scott Wedel 5 years, 6 months ago

Fred, Mavis, Do you really think that saying those not of your political viewpoints are too stupid to be allowed to vote shows how smart you are?

That is the sort of argument that even children playing among themselves reject as unfair.

And that is a self defeating argument because the Republican party has lost the support of college educated people, but is doing well among high school drop outs.

If Hofmeister and Fred Duckels want to solidify the Republican party as the party of older white men then just keep on going. You are doing a great job of that.

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seeuski 5 years, 6 months ago

Mr. Ninger, You really should limit your reading of the kooky Maureen Dowd columns or watching Jenine Garrafolo on Olberman. The reason Mr. Wilson lost his cool and spouted out what everyone was thinking is because the Republicans in Congress had brought forth several amendments to HR3200 including one that spelled out that Illegals would not be eligible for coverage under the plan that was shot down by the Democrats so when Obama made the statement that "no Illegals would be eligible under this plan" he was spinning the facts, or lying as many see it. Calling people hateful names because they are against the radical agenda that this President is pushing forward with is just fueling the huge divide between Americans that has grown so much since Mr. Obama was elected. It is hurtful to be called a racist for having opposing ideas than that of Obama but I assure you sir, we will not go quietly into the night because people who love Obama like yourself call us names. As far as your assertion that we don't want health care reform well get your head out of your nether region and read the hundreds of posts on this site or better yet go and see the House bill that was brought for a vote by the Republicans in the House, HR3400, which deals with one of the most important items effecting cost, Tort reform among other things. http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c111:H.R.3400: Please don't give me the Obama sales routine he is using lately saying"I want to ensure that Doctors are not over testing to cover themselves from liability". Notice he does not use the term Tort reform or mention trial lawyers. Go see what Tort reform has meant to the health care system in Texas and then go see what the single payer plan did in Tennessee, Tenncare, and then decide for yourself. Should we do what works or should we do what hasn't worked? http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/columns/OpEd-Contributor/Tort-reform-must-be-part-of-health-care-reform-8096175.html http://www.bizjournals.com/nashville/stories/1999/12/27/editorial1.html

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Scott Wedel 5 years, 6 months ago

Sep, I thought you guys self identified yourselves as "Tea Baggers" if you go to a "Tea Party". If being called a Tea Bagger is an insult then I apologize.

As for your ACORN accusations - Voter fraud - there are no serious accusations of voter fraud. By law, even obviously fraudulent voter registration cards have to be submitted. And when people are paid for each filled out voter card then it becomes likely some people will allow anyone to write anything on a card. If anything, ACORN was defrauded by people it hired to register voters when obviously false cards were submitted. No evidence of people trying to vote on false voter registration cards.

Congress is unlikely to even hold hearings on allegations that Bush's White House ordered politically motivated investigations of voter fraud by US Attorneys and fired those that dropped the cases due to lack of evidence. But you want Congress to go after ACORN for less substantiated allegations?

Mortgage loans - if that topic so interests you then ask why the local DA has not investigated local mortgage brokers? I just bought some appliances from a woman that had been given an interest only loan she couldn't afford. The industry was writing loans to unqualified people, but you somehow think it was all because of ACORN?

Those TARP funds that Barney Frank wanted to use to help homeowners were to help all homeowners and to limit the foreclosure crisis. It had as much to do with helping ACORN as it would help Tea Partiers.

ACORN went from a group of community activists considered to have good ties to lower income parts of cities and thus a good resource to use to count some of these hard to find citizens, to became a lightning rod for the right and so politically impossible to use for a census. No big deal, it'll probably cost the census more to accurately count everyone, but the Census Bureau wants to be accurate and not make it any more controversial than accuracy requires.

I am no supporter of ACORN. ACORN has obvious management issues. Though, I think the management issues at AIG, Citi, BofA, JP Morgan, Goldman Sachs and so on are of far greater importance. How they could have done what they did without being arrested is baffling. Everyone knew, it was widely reported at the time and even advertised by mortgage brokers, that mortgages were being written that the buyers could not afford, but that if prices to continued to appreciate at unprecedented rates then the buyer could sell the unaffordable house, take the profit to buy something affordable. What could go wrong with that sort of pyramid scheme? And these guys that took billions in bonuses didn't know it was all dependent upon fraud and that their only objective was to get out before it collapsed?

You want to march with pitchforks into local mortgage brokers and walk all the way to Wall Street? I'll go with you.

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jimmmmmm 5 years, 6 months ago

Did you get your morning cup of Glen Beck or what Seeuski? Tort reform is necessary, however the experts say this would account for minimal savings in the big picture. In 2005, the CBO determined tort liability accounted for less than .5% of health care costs. Not sure what that means for 2009, but I'm assuming not much different. However I agree, very necessary and I wouldn't be surprised if by the end of the legislative process, it's in there somewhere. Competing across state lines, also a good idea, but the jury is still out on whether that would provide any real savings. It could lower premiums for healthy people, but how would it help an overweight high risk smoker, or someone with a pre-existing condition? Still going to be a big risk for the insurance company-and they're all about risk. So again, we're back at square 1 (more of the status quo, no?).

Anyway, I thought of you Seeuski when I saw this. Humor me, and watch all 3 minutes of it. The end part is the most important. And when you see the grin on his face at the end, keep in mind that I have the same grin on my face as I send this to you.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036677/#32789903

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seeuski 5 years, 6 months ago

Sorry jimmmmmmmmmmmmmm but I can't and won't watch Oblerwoman, not even the Sunday night football preview show that NBC forces him upon us on. Obviously you think billions of dollars in precautionary tests ordered by Doctors who worry about liability or the massive cost of malpractice insurance is such a small bit that a Government takeover is the only answer. You apparently won't look at the evidence as illustrated by the Texas and Tennessee programs and therefore you have zero relevance in this discussion. Can you please provide something to back up your thesis other than Obama's words? I promise you that I have not watched one second of your goofy Olberwoman clips so you are only wasting your time adding that trash to your posts.

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jimmmmmm 5 years, 6 months ago

Well alright then Hateski-just thought you'd like to see what a bunch of liars your favorite Fixed News commentators are. Since your in no mood for humor, I'll try you again at a later date.

Just quoting the non partisan CBO findings, that's all.

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seeuski 5 years, 6 months ago

You mean the same CBO that started with the 1.6 trillion dollar deficiency numbers in hr3200 and then Obama called in director Douglas W. Elmendorf to the White House and the numbers magically came down to 1 trillion? That CBO? And now the numbers have been manipulated further by using 10 years of revenue and 7 years of costs bringing the numbers closer to the 600 billion number Obama has been using for his waste estimates that CBO? Are we not fools jimmmmmmmmmm? Keep believing jimmmmmmmmmmmm the tooth fairy must be alive and well in your world.

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jimmmmmm 5 years, 6 months ago

Your right, I should just listen to Fox for my facts. Just when I try to provide some honest opinions, based on a non partisan finding, you bring the same Grand Old Obstructionist talking points that wouldn't provide much reform at all. You are for health care reform, aren't you? What's worse, big gov't, or big insurance? I'd have to say, there are some smart people who have been working on reform, and if it was that easy (tort reform, interstate competition), I'm sure it would've happened, or it would be a focus of the admin. They are definately smarter than I am, but propably not nearly as smart as you. You just want this administration to fail, plain and simple, regardless of how much good may come out of this term. Hey, I hope Sarah Palin and all her wisdom treats you right in 2012.

I'm glad you don't hate to ski.

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seeuski 5 years, 6 months ago

I can't make a blind man see that is for sure. Obama will be speaking at the AFL-CIO union meeting this week, that is twice in two weeks. Last time he was bragging how he has confided with Andy Stern and the SEIU on every big bill he was dealing with over the last few years and that he is "not satisfied" yet. No I don't want Obama to succeed in giving the unions our health care system like he gave GM to the UAW over the Bondholders. We have a model for health care that is working in Texas and one that you want to emulate that failed in Tennessee. How is that obstruction? The big bad insurance companies will have to compete against each other for our business if the Government rules prohibiting interstate policy sales is lifted. That will be beneficial for you, me and the rest of Americans long after Obama is out of office. But once you let the Government and the Unions in to run things it will be permanent like it or not. No Government paid for program has ever been eliminated once it has been adopted, even when it's failed financially. Look at Fannie/Freddie for one. Lastly, the big bad insurance companies average about a 2.2% net profit per year while Medicare is wasting 30% a year to fraud and mismanagement and it is the big bad insurance companies that are paying the 40% difference between what is paid by Medicare and the actual costs incured by the Doctors and Hospitals and you want the insurance companies to go away? Who do you think will be on the hook in 10 or 20 years when single payer is all there is? Us. You, me and every other taxpayer. Why would we want Big Unions bosses raking in the big bucks off of Americans under the guise of health care reform? I don't.

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JustSomeJoe 5 years, 6 months ago

jimm - take it from Joe, discussing anything with seeuski is like talking to a 2x4. He's got his mind made up and his talking points ready. He'll ignore what you said and going on talking on his points.

President Obama is doing what we elected him to do, hopefully inspite of the Banshee wail of the very far right. As far as Gary's letter, once again a mishmash of obsfucation and lack of context from sentence one. I'm guessing Gary is a fan of the Sedition Act, that's why Adams is his alter-ego.

I love paragraph three where Gary takes as "empirical evidence" the town hall shouters, people with pictures comparing the President to Hitler, screaming obscentities, probably even the guys showing up with guns strapped on. Very empirical . To recap, Gary thinks those folks, plus the burgeoning "tea party" movement, are non-partisan. I think only a true partisan can say that without blushing.

Take a look at recent polls from the Washington Post/ABC and even Rassumussen, a well known right leaning pollster. ( http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/healthcare/september_2009/health_care_reform ) Public support for the Obama and Democratic Congress health care reform plan is over 50% favorable and is trending up. This despite the empirical evidence of town hall meetings and tea party gatherings. Empirical evidence of what exactly, the crazy tree is in full bloom?

Gary - you are correct, we are at a tipping point. We are, as a nation, getting past the point where screaming and fear-mongering overcome common sense. We recognize the shouting and name calling for what it is. You can wrap it up in whatever bow you want, but it's the same specious, partisan hackery that laid quiet while your party drove us in the hole we find ourselves in.

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kathy foos 5 years, 6 months ago

Non-partisans may be the cow-tippers of the future ,maybe that is what is so scary to both major cow partys.Just cant control someones vote so they are the enemy.We are all citizens working together for the country.

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Meusel 5 years, 6 months ago

Scott They'll even judge your patriotism by how close you hew to their political point of view: now that's scary.

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seeuski 5 years, 6 months ago

Uhh lets see, I bring real time info and real evaluations of the two different approaches to this health care problem but I am dismissed as one of the crazy Tea Party mob. You guys should enjoy your latte while it is still warm because the country is awakening and growing in its opposition to Socialism. Enjoy your short term poll bounce. Oh, and watch the news tomorrow, FOX news that is, ACORN is back in the headlines. That is Obama's mainline.

And more numbers from Rasmussen. "Still, the intensity gap continues to favor those who oppose the plan. Currently, 28% Strongly Favor the proposed reform while 38% are Strongly Opposed. (see day-by-day numbers). In late August, 23% were strongly in favor of the plan and 43% were strongly opposed. "

No question Obama can sell an Eskimo ice cubes but that infatuation fades again when the reality sets in and the cubes melt. Hows my talking points fellas?

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Scott Wedel 5 years, 6 months ago

Seesuki, I'll give you a hint. You lose credibility when you present ACORN as some sort of highly organized group. Any group that hires homeless people and trusts them to properly register voters when being paid per signature is far better described as barely managed chaos than as some sort of liberal strike force.

You are free to criticize ACORN and their mistakes deserve criticism. But when you argue that Obama and ACORN share some deep connection and ACORN'S problems somehow reflect onto Obama then you start sounding like a nutter.

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seeuski 5 years, 6 months ago

Scott Wedel.........."The joke of this situation with ACORN is that the Democratic Party are not such great fans of acorn. acorn is full of idealistic community activists that are quite likely to criticize elected Democrats."

Do you really believe what you write Scott? Because I did have a good laugh at it.

http://beltwayblips.dailyradar.com/video/obama_caught_saying_acorn_and_friends_will_shape_his/ http://sparkleplenty27.wordpress.com/2008/10/19/obamas-web-of-association/ http://www.freedomslighthouse.com/2009/09/fox-news-griff-jenkins-confronts-sen.html

Oh well, I'll wait for the next punch line.

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Chuck McConnell 5 years, 6 months ago

Joe,

Yes I watch Beck et. al. I sure would not have learned about the horrors of ACORN on the main stream media. Gosh, ACORN's phony voter registrations and their conduct in "helping" with loans to admitted hookers is really important given that o's stimulation plan had $9.5 billon headed their way. And guess who else must be watching -- the US Senate. They finally woke up to their wrongdoings and voted agains them by 83 to 7. Where might you have been on that vote, Joe.

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Scott Wedel 5 years, 6 months ago

That 80% number was not the number of good loans, but the percentage of banks that said their CRA mortgage program was profitable. Over 50% of the banks said their CRA mortgages had about the same profit as other mortgages.

CRA had been plugging along for 30 years, no problem at all for half the banks and a minor annoyance for the other banks.

Meanwhile there is a boom in subprime and other exotic mortgage products (5% down, interest only with a 3 year balloon to someone in Stagecoach).

And now when subprime default rates are reaching 20% in some cases and CRA mortgages are defaulting just slightly higher than prime mortgages there is no just factual basis to blame CRA for the financial crisis.

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seeuski 5 years, 6 months ago

"ACORN, although I don't equate it with the Democratic party or President Obama. "

Boiyngdoiynboyng.....what? I'm going for a long walk off a short pier.

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JustSomeJoe 5 years, 6 months ago

Seeuski - I dismissed you as 2x4, not a tea party member.

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seeuski 5 years, 6 months ago

You poor soul Wedel, In the words of John McEnroe"you cannot be serious".

One quick google search and I could flood this site with so much evidence along with the big wigs who are using the poor people for profit like the Rathke brothers and SEIU who are linked.

Oh and by the way, the President will be making another speech today to the AFL-CIO, second in two weeks. Google that one from Labor Day weekend and listen to Obama promise them their share in the health care takeover.

News for nutters: http://www.clevelandleader.com/node/7203 http://www.clevelandleader.com/node/7231 http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=NDZiMjkwMDczZWI5ODdjOWYxZTIzZGIyNzEyMjE0ODI=

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housepoor 5 years, 6 months ago

I'd like to suggest that we limit anonymous users to posting to the forum to only once per day for each topic. The naming calling, negativity and obsessive posting by a few nameless individuals has made it nothing more than a bully pulpit for the fanatics.

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Brian Kotowski 5 years, 6 months ago

If W had been the mouthpiece for a "community organization" - some of whose worker bees were later documented advising people how to perpetrate and cover up numerous high-grade felonies, the MSM would've pulled out all the stops to bury him.

The MSM has completely ignored the Obama/ACORN association, despite Obama citing his service with ACORN as one of his primary qualifications for the Presidency.

Fortunately, Congress seems to be paying attention, and looks ready to pull the plug on ACORN. The Senate voted yesterday 87-6 to cut off funding: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/brooklyn/probe_launched_as_senate_nixes_funds_EHbcP9vbNxA7t7IdXLqnRL , while the Brooklyn DA has initiated a criminal probe.

Obama supporters have nothing to fear. If things heat up and people start questioning the Obama/ACORN connection, the President will deploy the Reverend Wright maneuver, and throw ACORN under the bus. The MSM will sell whatever he says or does, and that will be that.

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Scott Wedel 5 years, 6 months ago

Seesuki, I don't think anyone denies that Obama had interactions with ACORN.

What you fail to comprehend is even mentioned in the articles that you mention is that ACORN is basically local offices. There is no strong central management issuing controversial directives to local offices and making sure that the office follow orders.

And if ACORN bothers you then as a patriotic American then you must be horrified by this talk of succession and so on that is coming out of the mouths of some elected Republicans.

Serious Democratic leaders stayed away from Cindy Sheehan and Code Pink. They wanted to be able to distance themselves from the nutters of the left. But Republicans like House Minority Leader Cantor and Governors Perry and Pawlenty have addressed Tea Baggers making sympathetic comments.

Ever notice that these Tea Bagger crowds are almost all white? Do you think that Blacks, Asians and Hispanics do not see the (handful of) racist signs in those events and fail to notice that the speakers never denounce racists, but instead often speak in terms of us vs them. And with Republicans leaders joining the Tea Baggers then elections for Democrats become easy. Collect huge margins from minority voters which means they can lose the white vote by as much as 15%.

So be outraged and expect to be outraged for years to come.

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Brian Kotowski 5 years, 6 months ago

Correction: The Senate vote denying federal funding to ACORN was 83-7.

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Chuck McConnell 5 years, 6 months ago

jmmmmm,

Well, take your pick: NBC/WSJ, Rasmussen (Likely Voters), Pew Research, NPR (Likely Voters). The average margin of opposition is about 7 per cent. See Pollster.com. Also the ABC/Washington Post poll showed disapproval and these are two bastions of the left.

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JustSomeJoe 5 years, 6 months ago

Again Chuck, you continue to be way off base about the amount of CRA loans given in the past 30 years total volume wise and their charge off and profitability rates versus conforming and jumbo loans.

You see 80+% as a red flag, (charge!), when historically it's great. Securitizations of CRA loans are over-subscribed by non-banks because of their profitability and low default rate. Non-bank investors don't need to meet any CRA requirements, so why exactly are they buying?

In the past year the Fed, the FDIC and many banking industry experts have published hard data showing CRA loans had nothing to do with the sub-prime crisis. Where's your hard data and industry experts chuck? Beck? O'Reilly? You are mixing smear politics with hard data that shows otherwise. Don't buy the meme chuck.

I didn't include any hate, spite or decit in my last post. What, I questioned your patriot status? I even apologized to you last post.

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Scott Wedel 5 years, 6 months ago

And if you think Obama will thrown ACORN under the bus then how can you also argue that ACORN controls Obama?

So then if some Tea Bagger does something horrible then will Republicans throw Tea Baggers under the bus?

Oh wait, not just some low level person, but the leader of the Tea Baggers called Obama a racist among other things and no Republicans have denounced him.

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jimmmmmm 5 years, 6 months ago

Seeuski-Not sure about your rantings above, but I have researched both tort reform, and interstate competition, and I'm not just repeating O's words (I don't think I am, but I didn't see all of his speech, I was chasing around my kids). I think what I stated above makes a valid point, no? While both would be good, the overall impact on health care costs for the premium payers and tax payers would be minimal. It's reform we want, not just a small bandaid. My uncle is a Dr. in Austin Tx, and he agrees that while necessary, the savings are minimal in the grand scheme of things.

You can rant all you want, but try being realistic for a change.

http://washingtonindependent.com/55535/tort-reform-unlikely-to-cut-health-care-costs

http://www.redstate.com/red4ever/2009/09/02/tort-reform-is-not-the-answer-to-healthcare/

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Brian Kotowski 5 years, 6 months ago

Scott Wedel:

I ain't seeuski, and I don't think ACORN controls the President.

But when the President's filibuster-proof Democrat Senate pulls the plug, their activities bear looking into - like ACORN's role in obtaining billions in federal funding for subprime loans to unqualified borrowers; why Dems like Barney Frank believe ACORN oughtta be doling out billions more in TARP funds to sustain those same unqualified borrowers; virtually nation-wide allegations of voter fraud; what might have caused the US Census to shred its agreement with ACORN to "assist" with next year's survey...

It is not unreasonable to believe that such widespread corruption, mismanagement, poor judgment, and incompetence is pervasive and longstanding. It didn't mysteriously appear overnight.

It would be interesting to see what an investigation would reveal. Fortunately for your side, neither the Democrat Congress nor the MSM will do anything to tarnish the man they worked so hard to install.

Incidentally, I'll be attending a Tea Party (you seem reasonably bright - it's sad you can't refrain from the juvenile name-calling) meeting at the Smokehouse this evening. I'll let you know if we do something "horrible".

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Scott Wedel 5 years, 6 months ago

But if you want to focus on ACORN then you are free to do so by yourselves. The Democratic Party could not have dreamed of anything more helpful than Tea Parties and so on that has unified high ranking election Republicans with right wing nuts that has become so chaotic that it has been infiltrated by racists that no one is willing to condemn.

Go ahead, Tea Party all you want. Presumably, with an upcoming local election, at least one of you all is running for City Council and will campaign as a Tea Partier(?). And then see what the general population thinks of you all.

And please do not do anything horrible. I was just saying that if are going to judge ACORN by it's worst members then Tea Partiers should be expected to be judged by your worst members. And a professed leader of TPers was on Anderson Cooper last night saying how Obama is a racist.

Do you agree that no American should call the President of the United States a racist?

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Chuck McConnell 5 years, 6 months ago

jimmmmmm,

The most cost effective action is elimination of waste, fraud and abuse. obama trys to sell us that he and his minions will significantly reduce those costs and that will pay for the socialization of medical care. Many have tried and all have failed -- WF&A just keep growing. So the ultimate method of payment will be us, the taxpayers. It is guaranteed taxes will go up significantly with o's plan.

Couple this with the stupid cap-and-trade plan and soon it will take until November to breakeven with earnings vs. taxes paid.

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Chuck McConnell 5 years, 6 months ago

Sep,

The only reason the senate voted down funding to ACORN was that it was finally outted by FOX and the Tea Party goers.

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Chuck McConnell 5 years, 6 months ago

Correction: My bad, the above was directed at Scott.

Sep: See you tonight, amigo.

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Scott Wedel 5 years, 6 months ago

The joke of this situation with ACORN is that the Democratic Party are not such great fans of ACORN. ACORN is full of idealistic community activists that are quite likely to criticize elected Democrats.

The idealistic community activists are not going to disappear. So if ACORN collapses then a subsequent national organization can be created with reliable Democrats in charge. Which is one of the reasons why Democrats did not fight taking funding away from ACORN.

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Chuck McConnell 5 years, 6 months ago

Joe,

Ok, what is your number? What is the value of these 20% minus of CRA loans? Why did the Fanny and Freddy go down to nothing?

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JustSomeJoe 5 years, 6 months ago

chuck - do you really think ACORN issued billions in sub-prime loans, or do you think it was now defunct mortgage brokers, banks and wall stree brokers with huge warehouse facilities created for issuing those loans? I've never seen any story on ACORN being involved in mortgage lending.

If you are going to go the CRA route, then don't. You can look at plenty of data on bad loans to see that sub-prime lending wasn't done in the CRA program. CRA makes up so little volume of mortgages, there's no way it even ticked the needle dispropotionately, or even at all.

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Chuck McConnell 5 years, 6 months ago

snowbow,

Wow! The anti-senior, anti-white men representative in the crowd. Do your parents know how you feel? If you inserted any other race in your rant where you derrogate white guys like me you would likely wear the big R lable on your sleeve.

But seriously, if the vote were taken today the results would be reversed. Evidence is pretty clear with the majority of Americans not supporting o's health care socialization plan. o got a really great reception by the AFF CIO today and they represent a whopping 7 percent of Americans. And just wait till the cap-and-trade battle starts and we T Party folks resist doubling of our heating bills. Right now o would be lucky to get 173 votes.

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Chuck McConnell 5 years, 6 months ago

Oh, yeah, and to you, Joe:

The CRA began in 1977. Yes, 1977 when banks were vilified for "red-lining" and forced by the libs to give loans to people totally unqualified to repay them. 1977 -- yeah, 32 years of bad loans forced on banks and bought by your friends at Fanny and Fredy. Sure there was a lot of greed on Wall Street but it pales to the 32 years of bad loans forced by the left. And who was the biggest supporter of Fanny and Freddy? That's right, the long tenured liberal fringe in congress. Thank you left wing!

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Chuck McConnell 5 years, 6 months ago

Oh, and Joe: Wall Street has myriad problems but one of them is not promoting prostitution and exploitation of 13 year old girls. Hard to believe you could be proud of ACORN.

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Chuck McConnell 5 years, 6 months ago

Joe,

You can't be serious! You argued that 80% plus of the CRA loans were ok and that was good? That 20% minus of bad loans amounts to hundreds of billions of dollars and was significantly contributory to the meltdown. Your argument fails by your own words. I again admit that Wall Street and dozens of mortgage companies around the country were culpable as well; but to deny the contribution of the CRA is the folly of blind idealism.

And by the way, your personal derogations do not add to the discussion. My research is just fine while sometimes your own words (see above) are counter intuitive.

Your arguments will be more well received if you refrain from the hate, spite and decit verbage.

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jimmmmmm 5 years, 6 months ago

I don't know Chuck-I wouldn't use the Poll argument too much. Seems like anyone can find a poll that supports any opinion. Check on the Kaiser Poll, or the Gallup Poll, they don't show this majority you speak of.

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jimmmmmm 5 years, 6 months ago

what majority do you speak of chuck? What poll is that from?

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JustSomeJoe 5 years, 6 months ago

Oh Chuck, there you go again. I didn't say anthing about being proud of ACORN. You can always win an argument in your mind when you put words in your opponent's mouth. You probably win all of your arguments in your mind, patriot that you are. The line of misdeeds runs deep on both sides. For every ACORN, I can give you Vitter-Craig-Foley-Sanford-Cunningham-Blackwater-Bush200victory-etc..... There's plenty of stuff to be ashamed of on both sides, it's inevitable, branch of the human condition tree, you know.

Apologies are due to you Chuck, I meant the CRA comments to be directed at sep, he brought that up. CRA had nothing to do with the sub-prime meltdown and the housing bubble. CRA loans have an EXTREMELY low default rate. Plenty of information out there, google CRA loans default rates. The large majority (80+%) report that CRA loans are profitable or marginally profitable. You can get information from both sides, the Fed, the banks that make the loans. Try to do a little research before spouting off, it's all out there. Or feel free to keep spouting fact free commentary.

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Chuck McConnell 5 years, 6 months ago

Jimmmm,

With respect, I mentioned 5 well respected polls some conducted by left leaning organizations (NPR, ABC, Wash. Post, et. al.). I'm sure the obama people are watching this because o backed down on the public option.

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JustSomeJoe 5 years, 6 months ago

Chuck - why do you keep bringing up Acorn with me? I don't give a whit about ACORN, although I don't equate it with the Democratic party or President Obama. I haven't brought it up or defended it once, but for some reason it feels like you think you are scoring points with me by bringing it up. As I said in a previous post, you can find wrong-doings with all people, regardless of political or religous affliliation. There are points to be scored on either side of the aisle.

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Chuck McConnell 5 years, 6 months ago

Joe,

You tried to denegrate my points of view by grouping me as a blind follower of Fox and their cohort. I brought up ACORN as an example of some really good reporting Fox does and that just because I receive info. from them is not a bad thing. I also watch CBS and ABC even though their political agendas are far left. I refrained from even asking you where you get your data. Fox data on ACORN plus the indictments by the courts tells me they are not worthy of $9.5 billion from our left wing administration. Scott even said there was no evidence of votor fraud by ACORN while 30 of their folks have been indicted. What does it take to convince you guys?

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Chuck McConnell 5 years, 6 months ago

seeuski,

Your reference on CRA loans was excellent. The Fed. Reserve Report on performance of CRA related lending showed the folly and high delinquency rates of those loans.

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seeuski 5 years, 6 months ago

Because of the hard work of Glenn Beck and the heavy attendance of Town Halls by concerned Americans several Congressmen are introducing important legislation requesting the White House answer for the 30,40,50 or more czars currently on the payroll. It requests that a Congressional vetting process be established in order to protect the interests of the American people.

Hallelujah!!!!!

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Scott Wedel 5 years, 6 months ago

Chuckmc, Voter fraud??? I've looked and found the cases of voter registration fraud. In many cases, reported by ACORN against those that they hired. And the reason for fraud all appear to be in order to get a paycheck for turning in filled out voter registration cards.

$9.5 billion for ACORN is slightly off. Looks more like $2M mostly for first time home buyer and foreclosure counseling. I am not sure if the $9.5B is meant as a joke, but it is clearly a joke to claim that if ACORN discusses a person's financial situation and that person has a $200K loan that ACORN gets the $200K loan.

But actual voter fraud indictment where someone working for ACORN helped a person fraudulently vote, searches for that come up empty.

$9.5 billion for ACORN is slightly off. Looks more like $2M mostly for first time home buyer and foreclosure counseling. I am not sure if the $9.5B is meant as a joke, but it is clearly a joke to claim that if ACORN discusses a person's financial situation and that person has a $200K loan to then say that ACORN got $200K in federal funds.

And I just read the full fed report of CRA loans. Write off rate of 23 basis points (.23%) on CRA loans compared to 15 basis points on prime loans. That means for $100 in loans, CRA loos rate is 8 cents more than prime. Hardly a high loss rate.

Meanwhile subprime has a loss rate of about 800 basis points.

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Scott Wedel 5 years, 6 months ago

Whoops, posted instead of edited.

The most important comment in the Fed Report on CRA was that equity is the greatest determinate of loan loss for any mortgage.

CRA did not create the exotic mortgage products. I know an anesthesiologist that was able to get a $1M chose your payment loan. Didn't have to pay anything for 3 years, though was encouraged to make at least some interest only payments.

And back to ACORN, a person might be fooled into thinking ACORN is some great powerful group. They are not. Their total budget is about $50 million. There are all sort of other community organizations. ACORN can disappear today and the others will take it's place tomorrow.

Having the Republicans make a big fuss about ACORN is good long term politics for the Democrats. It is just another case of republican bullies making an excuse to pick on the little guy. Another few hundred thousand citizens motivated enough to vote Democratic

And if it turns out that the unedited videos included discussing that this was all a joke then it will be a big embarrassment for Fox and the Republicans.

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Chuck McConnell 5 years, 6 months ago

Scott,

With respect, look it up. What I said was ACORN had $9.5 billion allocated to them in the obama stimulus plan. So far, they have received $53 million from various govt. agencies.

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Brian Kotowski 5 years, 6 months ago

I can't decide if the ACORN apologists are amusing or pathetic. You all seem to be asserting that we oughtta place our faith in you, and damn our lying eyes.

Even Jon Stewart ain't buying that tripe (NSFW or small kids): http://freedomlibertyshow.com/2009/09/even-jon-stewart-is-embarrassed/

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seeuski 5 years, 6 months ago

Sep, That was priceless. I can't wait to see what he does with the California sequel and ACORN murderess.

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Brian Kotowski 5 years, 6 months ago

Looks like ACORN is in full-on damage control mode - ACORN Suspends Key Services Amid Probe: http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/politics/ACORN-59498812.html

If you want to see something really funny (albeit in an infantile sort of way), log onto the loons at Democratic Underground. Those ACORN employees doling out the criminal advice? They're Republican PLANTS, dontchya know... LOL

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knee_dropper 5 years, 6 months ago

How many people in Steamboat are associated with ACORN? How many of you attend these "Tea Parties"? This video is pretty eye-opening as to how far out on the fringe some of these guys are; must be more of the "mushy middle," right Gary?

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seeuski 5 years, 6 months ago

Quite disturbing it is these days. Yea like the guy that showed up at an Obama speech in Phoenix with an automatic rifle. NBC cropped the video so you could not see his head or arms and claimed he was a right wing white man. It took FOX news to clear that one up, he was a conservative black man. Oops. People who live on the MSM propaganda for their so called "news" are doing themselves a disservice.

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seeuski 5 years, 6 months ago

You loved it when it was against George W.Bush Knee, but you hate it now that Obama is the target. And there are other sources of video other than the new left media that won't just show the fringe that every party has, yours too.

And there are people working here in Steamboat that are associated with ACORN using the guise of Americorps. I met one of them and they admitted it.

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jimmmmmm 5 years, 6 months ago

Okay Fixed News minions and Glen Beck disciple's. I hope this makes your day.

http://mediamatters.org/press/releases/200909160021

http://www.acorn.org/index.php?id=12439&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=22583&tx_ttnews[backPid]=12387&cHash=f1e6ffcdd4

I hope this is true Seeuski-you and your Fox News. Your quote, "People who live on the MSM propaganda for their so called "news" are doing themselves a disservice".

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knee_dropper 5 years, 6 months ago

Yeah seeu, you've got your finger right on my pulse as to how I feel about protesters. I think you may have me confused with bizarro Sean Hannity. There's nothing like Jon Stewart to point out the hypocrisy in Fox News's stance:

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-august-19-2009/fox-news--the-new-liberals

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seeuski 5 years, 6 months ago

Good one guys. Let me gather myself from the guttural laugh I just had and leave you with this unfortunate news. Maybe you should send these videos to ACORN, you may be eligible for ACORN money(our tax dollars)for your services. http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/politics/ACORN-59498812.html Hahaha.

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JustSomeJoe 5 years, 6 months ago

so c-u-ski, were you against the Bush Czars, or just the Obama Czars? Bush had 36 Czars, including intelligence czars, manufacturing czars, a bioethics czar and, of course, Karl Rove, the domestic-policy czar. Bill O'Reilly called on Bush to appoint an Immigration czar and a Charity czar. But now that we have Democrat as President, we need a law managing czars?

Oh by the way, ACORN ACORN ACORN ACORN ACORN ACORN ACORN ACORN ACORN ACORN ACORN ACORN ACORN ACORN ACORN ACORN ACORN ACORN ACORN ACORN

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knee_dropper 5 years, 6 months ago

Joe, it's bizzaro world now for the right-wing. Policies and budget issues that were perfectly alright under Bush and a republican congress are now a travesty. Activities that were branded unpatriotic or even treasonous such as protesting the president's policies are now trumpeted as an American duty. The right wing are the new liberals. LOL

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seeuski 5 years, 6 months ago

That was your time to go after Bush. He is gone and now we have a President who said "If you want to know how I shape my policies you should look who I surround myself with". Well OK lets go for it. I'll use CNN so as not to further upset poor joe. http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/09/07/obama.czars/index.html

But on the other hand lets get the top gun in here. http://michellemalkin.com/2009/07/26/culture-of-corruption-czars-of-the-obama-underworld/

And of course, ACORN ACORN ACORN.

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Scott Wedel 5 years, 6 months ago

With due respect, here is it from factcheck.org

http://www.factcheck.org/2009/02/the-stimulus-bill-and-acorn/

Faulty Logic

Boehner and Vitter commit two logical fallacies. Their argument has the form:

  1. The stimulus bill provides funding for redeveloping neighborhoods.
  2. ACORN does work in redeveloping neighborhoods.
  3. Therefore the stimulus bill provides funding for ACORN.

That's an example of what philosophers call the undistributed middle fallacy. It's a common mistake; in May 2008, we caught Sen. John McCain making a similar logical blunder. But Boehner and Vitter compound their error by treating different terms as if they had the same meaning. ACORN does indeed work in redeveloping neighborhoods, but the work that it does is not the same sort of work for which NSP provides funding. By pretending as if the two are the same, Boehner and Vitter commit the fallacy of equivocation.

We're accustomed to seeing logical fallacies in political arguments. But working two of them into a single argument is unusually bad logic.

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seeuski 5 years, 6 months ago

Now there is an ACORN video from San Diego dealing with illegal immigration through Mexico. Whew, and I thought it couldn't get any worse. Is there any clean people in that Organization? No, not even the founder's brother, Dale Rathke, who embezzled one$million$ bucks from the organization. NYT's: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/09/us/09embezzle.html

Sorry guys but this organization is obviously nothing more than a crime organization in sheep's clothing.

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seeuski 5 years, 6 months ago

This site also shows where the birther movement came from.

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Brian Kotowski 5 years, 6 months ago

knee_dropper:

Don't presume to speak for those you deride. We'll speak for ourselves, thank you very much. As a card-carrying right-winger, I can proclaim that the war on terror is the ONLY thing W got right.

I had to hold my nose at the polls in 2000 (just as I did last year). I found our 43rd President's profligate spending to be abominable. What's really breathtaking is that #44 makes #43 look like Ebeneezer Scrooge.

All hail our new Socialist Overlord!

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knee_dropper 5 years, 6 months ago

Sep, I was responding to seeu's assumptions on how I felt about Bush/Obama protesters. I could really care less about these tea parties, it helps show the movements true colors and exposes the hatred that compells some of their numbers.

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Brian Kotowski 5 years, 6 months ago

knee_dropper

My apologies if I misinterpreted your intent. On the other hand, I'm a Tea Party protester (full disclosure: I've attended one Tea Party meeting; I haven't been to a protest yet).

What about my affinity for the Tea Party precepts do you find to be "hat[eful]"?

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knee_dropper 5 years, 6 months ago

I don't find the tea party's precepts to be hateful in themselves. I agree that government spending ought to be more in line with tax revenues. I've noticed that this movement attracts people that are looking for a reason to vent that a fascist/communist/socialist/muslim/black/non-American/American hating/what have you/ man has been elected into the white house. I know there are always fringe elements that are attracted to protests, but there is a nasty side to a lot of the tea party protests that seem to be compelled by hate more than protesting health care, the bail out, acorn or whatever the talking point of the day is.

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seeuski 5 years, 6 months ago

If Obama wants us to know how he forms his policies he wants us to look at who he surrounds himself with. If people want to know why these millions of Americans, almost all of whom have never protested anything in their lives, are attending Tea Parties or Town Halls we must seek knee_drooper for his take. Thanks but no thanks drooper. After all these months of postings about what we are protesting against you summarizing it into the left wing talking points now led by the proven anti-Semite Jimmy Carter as hate and racism just shows that you can't reasonably defend the agenda of Obama. And with good reason, it is failing. Obama was elected with a vast majority of the vote,which is proof in itself that Americans would vote for a man of color, and enjoyed a 70% approval rating until recently. He is now below 50% approval and it is not because the color of his skin or the problem of him not providing his long form birth certificate, which was brought to the fore by democrats for Clinton as indicated by the above link, it is because he is imposing a radical agenda upon the American people that we are standing up against. That is all it is, not hate or racism, if it weren't for the radical damage being done to this country we could stand and wait until 2012 and elect someone new but we see the urgency that is required to prevent more financial damage to this country.

And as for ACORN and Wedell's insinuation that this is a small non centralized group, maybe he should read the story in today's Pilot where it says "ACORN will work with it's advisory council, which includes prominent supporters of President Barack Obama, such as John Podesta, president of the nonprofit Center for American Progress, and Andrew Stern, president of the Service Employees International Union, to name an independent auditor and investigator, ACORN chief executive Bertha Lewis said in a written statement.

So there you have it ACORN and SEIU and Obama are now connected through this AP report and not FOX news. Tsk Tsk.

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jimmmmmm 5 years, 6 months ago

Seeu 'Glen Beckerhead is my hero' Ski-What's with the approval rating? Bush spent the better part of his second term under 50%. Big deal-but good talking points though. And what's your problem with Americorp? You don't like the fact that there are some people willing to work for next to nothing, to help in the community? Working with kids who might otherwise fall thru the cracks? Setting up after school programs? Working in the schools with special needs children? Sounds like it's needed, and all positive to me.

I've got a question. When are the Republicans going to find some leadership? Any chance in hell they can find someone who's sole purpose is for the positive direction of the nation. You sent a link for Michele Malkin-is there a nastier person on earth? She still thinks HR3200 gives federal money to illegal immigrants. What an embarrasment to the party.

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seeuski 5 years, 6 months ago

No, HR3200 allows for illegals to receive health coverage, if you can provide the section that says otherwise why not post it? The problem with Americorps is it's association with ACORN and the political activism that is a part of the program. There are no children falling through cracks that were not intended to be there by the Dems who love having poor needy people looking to them for aid, what a voting machine. That is why there are great men and women who offer alternative solutions like self determination and empowerment. Robert Woodson sr. is a prime example. http://www.c-spanarchives.org/library/index.php?main_page=product_video_info&products_id=288586-1&showVid=true

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seeuski 5 years, 6 months ago

This man is special and is worth watching, click the red flash tab at the c-span site.

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Scott Wedel 5 years, 6 months ago

Sees, You don't believe factcheck.org because it has ties to the Anneberg Foundation? So you ignore a site respected for fact checking both sides because it is financed by the Anneberg Foundation which exists to advance the public well-being through improved communication that was founded by Walter Anneberg whom famously used his Philadelphia Inquirer newspaper to defeat a Democratic candidate for governor and Was was appointed ambassador to Great Britian by President Nixon.

You are so far out of touch that you cannot even see the mushy middle.

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seeuski 5 years, 6 months ago

Factcheck posted a certificate of live birth for Obama that was not a match to the supposed same document that Obama had up on his site at the same time last summer in defense against the Hillary Clinton campaign which was requesting Obama's long form BC. How can you expect an adversarial opponent to your opinions to trust a group that has its ties to the very side that it is fact checking? Come on Scott be reasonable for once. Annenberg has been dead for how long now. What does it matter that he did certain things in the 70's? We have to look at the source as it stands now not then. So bring your facts and dispute the AP article that this paper has printed, go ahead with your bad self.

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jimmmmmm 5 years, 6 months ago

There you go again Seeu-spin-ski. Taking a truly positive experience for kids, and spinning it into a political activism group. What world do you live in?

I quote you again, "There are no children falling through cracks that were not intended to be there by the Dems who love having poor needy people looking to them for aid, what a voting machine."

I suppose you think that all of what Americorp does, would happen naturally in our society. It doesn't. It's a great program, has helped numorous kids in our community, and will continue to do so hopefully. I'm really starting to think you only believe this stuff for your own political desires, and not what, in reality, is a truly great program. You obviously prefer to completely distort their true purpose, and make people believe they are all left wing socialists with a political agenda. I tell you what, if your party could come up with leaders other than Rushbo and Beckhead, you may win an election someday.

Anyway, I know you've seen this, but here are the facts. Yeah, Yeah, Yeah...I know what you think of this site, I also know you don't want the facts. You just want a Republican in office.

http://www.factcheck.org/2009/09/obamas-health-care-speech/

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Scott Wedel 5 years, 6 months ago

Sees, And the ACORN advisory board is NEWLY created, not an existing board. And when being attacked by the right wing then of course you BRING IN experienced Democrats to defend yourself.

But you still have no answer to why the Senate Democrats were so willing to throw ACORN under the bus. If ACORN is so important then why was it so easy to discard it?

Walter Anneberg died in 2002. Which is after Barack's involvement with the Chicago Anneberg Challenge.

Continue on with your birther conspiracy.

Continue on, it just goes to show that you are so far out of touch that you cannot even see the mushy middle.

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knee_dropper 5 years, 6 months ago

Seeu lives in his own reality, where the armies of Americorps will join forces with ACORN to rule the world under their socialist fist. LOL As much as you vehemently disagree with ChemTrails you guys really aren't that different; your paranoia's just at a low boil. You don't have to take what I said for granted, the link to the DC tea party's right up there. If the republican party keeps painting itself in the corner all it's going to be left with are the loons, which is fine by me. Oh yeah, I hope the name calling gets you as far in life as it does here on the forums seeu. Keep that in mind the next time your going to cry about somebody doing the same to you. Have a good one.

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Chuck McConnell 5 years, 6 months ago

Neil,

When your president said the Constitution was "out of date" and a "living doccument" I think passion by caring Americans is easy to understand. If we sit back and do not take a stand we will find ourselves with a much changed government that will be even more bankrupt than now and much less competitive in the world of a powerful, growing China and a newly funded Russia. Com'on, get excited! I refuse to unite with a common interest that drags us into third world poverty.

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MrTaiChi 5 years, 6 months ago

Article II Section 1.

"No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; ..."

Are there any scholars of eighteenth century puctuation out there who can offer opinions on the significance of the placement of the commas above? In modern usage, wouldn't the first comma come after "Person", and wouldn't the commas after "Citizen" and "States" be omitted? Do thay make any substantive difference to the construction of the section?

It's interesting that the founding fathers saw the importance in presumably being raised in America to inculcate a child with consciousness of self as an American, while at the same time reserving the right of foreign born who were here when the Constitution was ratified to serve as President. The obvious example is Alexander Hamilton, who was born a bastard in the West Indies. He turned out to be a pretty quick study and towering contributor to organization of our country. Jefferson's Republican party feared that Hamilton would run as a Federalist, so there isn't much doubt that persons in his situation were considered eligible by the authors of the Constitution.

I'm not a birther, but now that you've slowed down to read the text of the Constitution, do you concede that it is the law of the land that a candidate is required to be one or the other? If so, why can't this matter be put to rest by either production of an original birth certificate or a clear ruling that none such was issued at the time of our President's birth?

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seeuski 5 years, 6 months ago

Look guys, we are seeing things through different filters. I think factcheck is trying to be fair in their interpretation of Obama's presentation to Congress and as I read down further it becomes obvious that even factcheck can't be exactly sure what the Government will do as the bill is ambiguous, and I believe on purpose. There are plenty of examples of factcheck's bias towards Obama leading up to the election and it obviously angered the Clinton voters and they investigated factcheck. Scott, your crazy love for ACORN is admirable but my tingle is not down my thigh it is on the back of my neck. They have been and always will be a thug group who is run by rich white people using well meaning and needy poor people for their financial and political desires. Just ask the ACORN eight. Americorps, like ACORN is full of good intentions, just google search the two together and you will find how our money is being spent by Kevin Johnson. IG Walpin was fired for his investigation. I don't think it is fruitful to argue whether Americorps will be used as a tool for the 2012 elections, that is my opinion and we will have to wait and see. But we are watching.

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seeuski 5 years, 6 months ago

Knee_drooper, I will post the non biased video from c-span of the 9/12 rally. Those who want me to post video after video of left wing demonstrations that turned violent or had idiots wearing masks and threats against Bush's life just let me know, I can find plenty of that garbage for you to enjoy. http://www.c-spanarchives.org/library/includes/templates/library/flash_popup.php?pID=288868-1&clipStart=&clipStop=

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Scott Wedel 5 years, 6 months ago

Sees, Now ACORN is a "thug group"??? What acts of violent crimes do you think ACORN has committed?

You still have not answered my challenge to find a voter fraud cause that involved voting. There are the voter registration fraud cases, some of which such as in Kansas City, ACORN turned in their own temporary employees that submitted the bad registration cards.

You still have not explained why the Senate Dems could throw ACORN under the bus if ACORN was so powerful.

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seeuski 5 years, 6 months ago

Sorry Scott if you choose to ignore your own ability to use google and you ignore known facts as has been reported in the news over the last couple of years it becomes pointless for me to waste my time on the ACORN subject with you. As evidenced by your dismissive post above you seem to have satisfied your need to know. Enjoy.

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JustSomeJoe 5 years, 6 months ago

This is not a defense of ACORN, I'm simply pointing out the lunacy of fixating on it.

ACORN has received a grand total of $53 million in federal funds over the last 15 years -- an average of $3.5 million per year. Meanwhile, not millions, not billions, but trillions of dollars of public funds have been, in the last year alone, transferred to or otherwise used for the benefit of Wall Street. Billions of dollars in American taxpayer money vanished into thin air, eaten by private contractors in Iraq and Afghanistan, led by Halliburton subsidiary KBR. All of those corporate interests employ armies of lobbyists and bottomless donor activities that ensure they dominate our legislative and regulatory processes, and to be extra certain, the revolving door between industry and government is more prolific than ever, with key corporate officials constantly ending up occupying the government positions with the most influence over those industries.

The prosititute "video sting" was simply that, an undercover camera sting of a single volunteer. Nothing indicative of the whole. Are the nutjobs that showed up at the 9/12 rally indicative of the entire Tea Party movement? Whoops, maybe the wrong example. Nowhere in the stimulus package was there $9.5B allocated for this group.

Nobody here is apologizing for ACORN or suggesting that they've done nothing wrong. Any group that large will have individuals in it who do bad things. The issue is one of proportion. If someone ostensibly opposes government waste and unfairness in tax policy yet spends most of their time focusing on a tiny group that helps the poor and receives a miniscule amount of government money -- all while ignoring or even revering the enormous, omnipotent industries which eat up trillions in taxpayer waste and dwarf the impact of ACORN by many, many magnitudes -- then any rational person would question what the real motives are [and the claim that ACORN is "Now Eligible for up to $8 billion" is pure Beckian deceit; they (like every other group in the U.S.) are theoretically "eligible" for any stimulus funds in the areas in which they work, but they haven't received a penny of it, and the chances they'd receive all or most of it are, and always have been, zero].

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JustSomeJoe 5 years, 6 months ago

ACORN isn't just being mentioned in passing as something that needs an examination; it's dominating headlines and the obsessions of the Fox News movement, despite the fact that it's a tiny, microscopic drop in the bucket even when assessed by the principles the protesters claim to support (by a vote of 345-75, the Democratic-led House just joined the Senate in voting to cut off all funds to ACORN; I'm sure the courageous Congress will be doing that to Blackwater, KBR, Citibank, lawbreaking telecoms and many other corrupt corporations who own them any moment now). Claiming you're worried about large government and taxpayer waste while fixating on ACORN proves the insincerity of the ostensible concern, let alone doing so while cheering on the same Wall Street banks, defense contractors, and insurance industries that control and expand government power for their own benefit.

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JustSomeJoe 5 years, 6 months ago

c-u-ski- pot, meet kettle. You are the King of fact ignoring.

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seeuski 5 years, 6 months ago

Great post joe. I skimmed it because I want to watch the Hurricanes kick GT's but. Take a look at the Alliance Group, SEIU, The Tides foundation and the Rathke brothers. The stimulus bill has provisions for 8.5 billion dollars that would go to ACORN and many other associated groups. ACORN has been caught taking tax money fraudulently by AG Gerald Walpin and he was fired illegally by Obama for doing the peoples job. You and I therefore have no other way of truly knowing where our stimulus money went or will go. The size of ACORN is not important here, although ACORN has millions of members who pay $120.00 each for yearly dues, it is who is at the top of the organization and where the money is going. As I said in the previous post, the amazingly dismissive nature of the posts coming from you guys is telling. I can only imagine if Bush had a group like ACORN in his camp while he was the Boss, can anyone say Impeachment? Deny that.

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knee_dropper 5 years, 6 months ago

^LOL^ Yeah impeach Bush for a group like ACORN. Yep, maybe if ACORN lied to start an illegitimate war, killed thousands and tortured, just to get started. Why don't you just admit that you've been bitter since the election and you're just looking for a reason to b*tch about the president seeu? Is ACORN really the most pressing issue this country is facing, or is this and every other little issue grossly magnified in your mind? This may be the time to invest in one of those fancy foil hats to block the beams ACORN is reprogramming everyone's minds with.

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Jax Larsen 5 years, 6 months ago

While all of these comments are interesting and entertaining I must say I have more respect and interest (even if I may not agree) with the posters who use their real names - not anonymous nicknames. I don't want to be anonymous and if I state a view it is only my view AND it will be Jax who posted it - Not Snow bunny, Dog lover, Alpenglow, etc. I respect Scott Wedel a great deal because he uses his name.

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Neil O'Keeffe 5 years, 6 months ago

This entire frikkin commentary is pathetic tit for tat BS. What will it take to unite our common interests as humans; flying pigs, invasion by aliens? Get over your egos people and wake the f... up!!! Believe

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JustSomeJoe 5 years, 6 months ago

back on topic:

A study published online estimates nearly 45,000 annual deaths are associated with lack of health insurance. That figure is about two and a half times higher than an estimate from the Institute of Medicine (IOM) in 2002... The Harvard-based researchers found that uninsured, working-age Americans have a 40 percent higher risk of death than their privately insured counterparts, up from a 25 percent excess death rate found in 1993.

http://pnhp.org/excessdeaths/

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JustSomeJoe 5 years, 6 months ago

"I want, not for personally for me, but for working Americans, to have a option, that if they don't like their health insurance, if it's too expensive, they can't afford it, if the government can cobble together a cheaper insurance policy that gives the same benefits, I see that as a plus for the folks," - Bill O'Reilly, showing that he is only 80 percent Hannity.

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kathy foos 5 years, 6 months ago

Thank god for the tit [?] for tat of these very intelligent people you are reading thoughts from,without them discussing and informing ,there really is no hope.I will take the bull with the good,its informative if you havent noticed,,,what you see here is people that care.,no one person can know it all.That includes you Neil,and by the way you are right,but they are working together to reveal truth,as you are,some people are just more passionate,so what?You have to be sorta tuff to even face the issues,they are so serious.

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mmjPatient22 5 years, 6 months ago

If you take a quick glance at history, more specifically American history, you'll see that the rights and entitlements of citizens, previously thought to be insoluble, become a commodity to be traded for feelings of comfort and security during times of war. "Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!" -Patrick Henry to the Virginia House of Burgesses, 1775 To what end are the American people going to let the government into their life? I would encourage all of you to check into a movie called "The End of America." It is an eye-opener for those of you that would take comfort in how YOUR government operates with YOUR money.

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seeuski 5 years, 6 months ago

I want for Americans to be free to purchase insurance from carriers in all states according to the best policy that fits their needs. I want tort reform so that 20% of the cost of medicine isn't going to pay for medical malpractice insurance or unnecessary pre surgery tests for defensive liability measures. I want for the waste that Obama says is in Medicare, $500 billion dollars worth, to be addressed immediately and not as a condition of his new plan being adopted. I want the Government to exercise their Constitutional duties to the American people and protect the borders from the millions of illegal crossings that has enabled as many as 20 million undocumented foreigners to receive expensive tax payer services such as medical care, schooling etc. that has inflated the financial difficulties that this Country is dealing with. I want the Government to turn the water back on in California's central valley so that thousands of farmers can continue to produce the food that we eat and those farmers can live and feed their families. I want the Government to open up the books on what the Fed is really doing with our money.(Transparency) I want the Government to honor contracts and return GM to it's rightful owners, the bondholders and the franchisees. I want the remainder of the stimulus money returned to its rightful owners since, as we are being told, we are out of the recession and the stimulus worked.

Thanks Justsomejoe for the inspiration.

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seeuski 5 years, 6 months ago

Another tipping point issue. While the President told us on national tv that the cap and tax bill would "cost the American family the equivalent of a postage stamp per day" he was hiding a memorandum that said otherwise.

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/09/15/taking_liberties/entry5314040.shtml

This is another good reason along with all the other foibles of this President to not trust them with their health care estimates.

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knee_dropper 5 years, 6 months ago

The irony about the California's central valley is that the water was turned off because of water shortages caused by climate change. Less summer snowpack = less water for irrigation. But hey, that's that many less illegal immigrants that will be working here.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=103950335

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trump_suit 5 years, 6 months ago

Where do you get the idea that Obama personally gave GM away???? This is simply an insult to intelligence. GM went thru a court bankruptcy not some kind of presidential review.

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seeuski 5 years, 6 months ago

The unions and ACORN are at their thug tactics again. The same tactics they used against Bankers to get the unqualified home loans.

"But Health Care for America Now (HCAN), which is backed by a coalition of labor unions and liberal groups including ACORN and MoveOn.org, organized the protests to target insurance companies and drafted the plan, which describes the demonstrations as part of its "insurance enemies project."

http://washingtontimes.com/news/2009/sep/19/obamas-overhaul-backers-targeting-enemies/

Hope Pelosi doesn't cry too much about this.

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Boatperson 5 years, 6 months ago

Fear is a well used tactic by the party of the Republic and has been for as long as i can remember. Something new perhaps would better the wool over my eyes.

Solution an suggestion with intelligence and intuitive balance of perspective would have to start with the source. Repairing the effect over and over again dilutes the cause an effect of the source problem.

Should Capitalism have free reign?

Making money in an economic system is imperative to growth and sustainability of culture and beliefs.

However, the objective has little recourse to consideration of anything but the bottom line. That of which does not include you and I the Citizen. Capitalism. If I the Company can dominate the market by limiting the choices available to the Citizen. One solution of many. If I owned every and I mean every business in Steamboat could I not dictate the value?

By limiting restraints on Business through the downsizing of Government? Government overview and control as representative to its Citizens?

Less overview by the Citizen, you and I; does this allow for better choice in the free market place?

Big Business, Small Government?

Am I wrong to think that this Nation should be in the Control of the Citizen and not the Capitalist? I would much rather have an educated debate over the long term cause and effect vs. the well we've been doing it wrong for so long we can't change it now, it would be the total down fall of the economy.

Disappointed I am with all of us, you and I. Greed is not the solution or the answer. Snap out of it people before it's too late.

P.S. What do you do for a life Seeuski, rather than post to the community gallery of the Steamboat Pilot & Today? I am beginning to worry about you.

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Brian Kotowski 5 years, 6 months ago

ACORN has filed suit against the whistle blowers. http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D9AT8VMO4&show_article=1 Can you say "discovery", boys & girls? The defendants will be entitled to send their lawyers crawling up every official orifice ACORN has.

Pop some corn and crack open a cold one. This should be entertaining.

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seeuski 5 years, 6 months ago

How long before ACORN drops the suit? Attack the messenger defense hmmm that seems familiar these days, anyone say Glenn Beck? Those pesky right wingers. On the other hand it worked for OJ.

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seeuski 5 years, 6 months ago

Add another indoctrination of the children to the list of many. I would be very concerned if I had kids in public school these days. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zrsl8o4ZPo

This is quite disturbing.

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JLM 5 years, 6 months ago

Two quick points:

Discovery in any litigation has to be germane to the litigation and cannot be focused on unrelated subjects nonetheless ACORN will rue the day it opened this can of worms.

Secondarily, prohibitions on recording are primarily related to "wiretapping" and the recording of conversations in public spaces --- which do not have a reasonable expectation of confidentiality --- are simply not covered by wiretapping prohibitions. This is first year of law school kind of stuff.

ACORN is screwed but the more important issue is that now that the rats like President Obama and Congressman Frank have turned on them, ACORN will return the favor. Expect some ACORN higher up to blackmail and then go public with the exact and real nature of the unholy alliance between ACORN and the Democratic Party.

This is gonna be fun, folks!

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jimmmmmm 5 years, 6 months ago

This guy gives Glenn Beck a run for his money. Big difference though, he isn't trying to distort any truths, and he doesn't cry.

Enjoy!

http://crooksandliars.com/john-amato/eric-cantors-insane-rant-town-hall-meet

Excellent monologue, wouldn't you agree Beckuski?

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seeuski 5 years, 6 months ago

One word answer for last years election. ACORN.

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seeuski 5 years, 6 months ago

jimmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmyboy, Sorry, but after all of the proven plants that have been called out at many of those Town Halls who provided false story after false story, just like the lie that Obama told the public that his mother had her insurance company cancel her on her death bed leaves little reliability in that ladies foible. What Cantor should have asked is how long had the Woman been out of work and why did she not take advantage of the 65% Government subsidy that is currently available for the unemployed on COBRA? The lie here is that people do not lose their insurance policies when they lose their jobs. But to move on to the lowest rated talk show host, Ed Schultz, he is doing nothing but lying for Obama when he says that the Republicans want people do die for money and don't want any health reform. I am sure you don't need me to rehash all of the previous posts do you? Like the ones where the Democrats have voted against tort reform, portability and interstate policy competition as House Bill 3400, which was written by the Republicans, provided. Or the many amendments to House Bill 3200 which would have made that Bill palatable to the Blue Dog Democrats and Republicans who are against the Public option and the lack of tort reform that 3200 represents. But I am sure that having an Obamanite like Ed Schultz putting out such a cut and paste video feels good to you. How are you liking the new Obamanite kiddie indoctrination video that has hit the airwaves? Have you memorized the lyrics yet? It goes like this mmm mmm mm......... You do the rest.

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seeuski 5 years, 6 months ago

I got to laugh though when you say, "This guy gives Glenn Beck a run for his money."

Bwaahaahaa. The reason people tune in to a talk show is because they want to know the truth, not to here the usual lies for the dear leader. That is why Glenn Becks ratings are more than all the other shows combined plus.

Nielsen ratings for 9/23/2009

5PM P2+ (25-54) (35-64) Glenn Beck 2,874,000 viewers (728,000) (1,258,000) Situation Room-790,000 viewers (224,000) (283,000) Hardball w/ Chris Matthews-450,000 viewers (104,000) (230,000) Fast Money-219,000 viewers (59,000) (111,000) Prime News314,000 viewers (107,000) (193,000)

http://tvbythenumbers.com/2009/09/24/cable-news-ratings-for-wednesday-september-23-2009/28314#more-28314

6PM P2+ (25-54) (35-64) Special Report with Bret Baier 2,224,000 viewers (500,000) (1,004,000) Situation Room-618,000 viewers (196,000) (225,000) Ed Show-512,000 viewers (146,000) (261,000) Mad Money -191,000 viewers (74,000) (104,000) Prime News - 343,000 viewers (153,000) (194,000)

Scale: P2+ = viewers over the age of 2

(25-54) = Adults 25-54 viewing

(35-64) = Adults 35-64 viewing

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jimmmmmm 5 years, 6 months ago

Well good for you and your strength in numbers. That's just more people listening to lies, distortions, and scare tactics-not sure that's something to be proud of, but good job presenting the numbers. Not sure what that says of the viewers either, but I'll leave that one alone for now. With all those people watching your favorite programs, how did you lose the election so badly? Didn't Hannity and Fixed News spew Rev. Wright and Bill Ayers nearly every night during the campaign, only to not realize the American people weren't listening to the B.S.?

But hey, at least you've got your ratings.

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jimmmmmm 5 years, 6 months ago

You and your freaking Tort reform? What, do you think you are the only one to think of such a change? You may not agree, but solutions have been researched, considered, and picked apart to no end. If Tort reform would provide real reform, don't you think it would be in HR3200? Oh, probably not, because Obama just wants to take control of everyone's lives because he's fascist, right? Get over yourself Seeuski, believe it or not, there are some pretty smart people out there besides you-and these options have been considered, for a long time. The bottom line is, the savings from Tort Reform are relatively minimal, and would not provide the reform needed. I'm pretty sick of your argument Seeuski; like everyone is so stupid for not considering Tort Reform.

http://www.tcpalm.com/news/2009/aug/31/bob-mcelroy-tort-reform-not-the-answer-to-heath/

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seeuski 5 years, 6 months ago

You socialists continue to tow the party line. The reason the Democrats have avoided tort reform and Obama could barely speak of it in any one of his bazillion important addresses to the American people is because of the Lawyers unions. Duh. Again, here is working proof that tort reform actually has a huge benefit to us, the public. http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/columns/OpEd-Contributor/Tort-reform-must-be-part-of-health-care-reform-8096175.html

Here is actual proof that a single payer system is a failure just like the $500billion$ that Obama says is wasted in Medicare. Tenncare: "The largest TennCare insurer, Blue Cross Blue Shield of Tennessee, says it will leave the program at the end of June. The company is losing money on TennCare, and so many doctors and hospitals are leaving the program that Blue Cross might not have a network of providers." http://nashville.bizjournals.com/nashville/stories/1999/12/27/editorial1.html http://www.tn.gov/tnoig/ReportTennCareFraud.html http://www.murfreesboropost.com/news.php?viewStory=696 http://www.volunteertv.com/home/headlines/59058727.html

We all want to improve the health insurance problems but the majority of Americans don't want to give the Government 1/6 of the economy in the form of our personal health system and watch it go to SEIU like the Government gave GM to to the UAW. You can jump up and down all day long but these are the facts jack. Sorry.

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Brian Kotowski 5 years, 6 months ago

seeuski:

The explanation for last year's election is twofold:

  1. 8 years of a RINO in the White House, and
  2. A RINO candidate running an inept campaign.
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seeuski 5 years, 6 months ago

I agree all are valid reasons, it was a perfect storm for such a mystery man as Obama. He is no mystery anymore as to his policies, I just hope there is a country remaining that resembles the old republic by 2012. Our list of new friends is telling. Chavez, Castro, Morales, Zelaya(ousted for now), Correa and Ortega to name a few. All Marxists.

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jimmmmmm 5 years, 6 months ago

Obama won because of ACORN? How Beckian of you Seeuski. Is it because of the voter registration fraud, or the fact that they got people to vote (which I assume you don't like-giving people their constitutional right to vote). Yeah, your right. I'd be scared Seeuski, very scared. Especially of all those indoctinated kids you posted above. Oh boy, all those future socialists. Hey, in 10 years or so, when these kids are old enough to vote, they might even make up their mind themselves. Hmmm, ever think of that?

Anyway, back to my original point. Tort reform is a good idea, but I think real reform is what we're looking for.

http://prescriptions.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/31/would-tort-reform-lower-health-care-costs/

http://washingtonindependent.com/55535/tort-reform-unlikely-to-cut-health-care-costs

Texas Health Care?

http://washingtonindependent.com/55535/tort-reform-unlikely-to-cut-health-care-costs

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jimmmmmm 5 years, 6 months ago

This, to me, is a hell of a lot more disturbing than the little kids singing an Obama song.

http://crooksandliars.com/david-neiwert/acorn-handy-substitute-n-word-912-ev

I'll bet this guy hasn't missed a Glenn Beck episode in a while.

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seeuski 5 years, 6 months ago

I post actual factual evidence of what has occurred with just tort reform and single payer systems and you post opinion pieces that are the same talking points and arguments. Come on jimmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmy. Lets get to the nuts and bolts, or each of our bottom lines. I don't want the Government to have control over the health system and you do. I do want to enact reforms of the insurance portability laws and eliminate the laws which make it imposable for interstate competition of purchase along with tort reform and I want Obama to make good on his accusations that there is $500bilion$ in waste at Medicare and clean it up but you don't. I want those that "can't" afford insurance to be part of a pool that is funded by a combination of insurance and Government subsidies that will cover all but do it without having a new Medicare debacle that has been a financial failure like every other Government program. Anyone with eyes can see that the Obamacare plan is a single payer program and is about obtaining huge power over the populace. I do not want to rely on corrupt lawmakers for my medical needs, do you? Lets keep it a little bit honest what do you say jimmmmmm?

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Aspengold 5 years, 6 months ago

People do lose their insurance policies when they lose their jobs. We did. Cobra is good for only 18 months after losing one's job.

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seeuski 5 years, 6 months ago

I know from personal experience Aspengold. We are all going through the worst economical period in our lifetime and unemployment, which is being falsely reported low, is effecting allot of us. I would rather have no insurance for a year or so than go under a big brother program for good. Regardless of what the proponents of Obamacare say it will lead to rationing and rationing boards are in the bill 3200. I've read it. The way to go would be to purchase a policy that covers catastrophic care in the interim in order to maintain a continuum in coverage so pre-existing conditions are covered.

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jimmmmmm 5 years, 6 months ago

And Cobra with a pre-existing condition, now that's pricey.

Seeuski-Did I ever say those ideas you mentioned were not good ideas? No, never did. But again, you just steer the boat back into the trouble were already in. Yes, good ideas to a point, but since your so good at surfing google, why not post how your points will really put more than a small dent in the current costs of health care. Try it. First post what the current costs of health care are for the gov't, and how your ideas would really result in the massive savings you refer to.

Oh yeah, Dolberman really gave it to your hero last night. He finished with, "Glenn Beck is the dumbest man on the planet." Good stuff.

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seeuski 5 years, 6 months ago

I think I am beginning to see what the Obama civilian army is going to be used for.

Flout the mandate penalty? Face the IRS http://www.politico.com/livepulse/0909/Flout_the_mandate_penalty_Face_the_IRS.html?showall

Confirmed: It becomes criminal if we don't buy Obamacare. Ensign receives handwritten confirmation http://www.politico.com/livepulse/0909/Ensign_receives_handwritten_confirmation_.html?showall

Yea, you keep going to Dolberman for your news smarty pants. I'll stay with the facts.

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jimmmmmm 5 years, 6 months ago

I only go to Dolbermann to watch him beat up on your hero's Seeuski. I get my news from various sources, including MSNBC, FIXED (sometimes when they're not hating, they deliver the news), CNN, PBS, etc. And what's with your links? How do you think this whole reform package will work otherwise? Oh yeah, you don't have to leave your current private provider if you don't want to. Ever hear of that?

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Brian Kotowski 5 years, 6 months ago

The Democrats have killed an amendment that would have posted the health care bill online for 72 hours before it was voted on.

So much for the "most transparent administration in history."

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jimmmmmm 5 years, 6 months ago

Probably a good idea. Could you imagine the lies being spread around before the vote, or as Seeuski might put it, D-Day.

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Brian Kotowski 5 years, 6 months ago

In other words, we're not entitled to see the bills our elected representatives vote on.

You're a helluva lot more trusting than I am.

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jimmmmmm 5 years, 6 months ago

I sure as heck don't trust the insurance lobbyists who'll say they've read it.

If you want to read something, give ole HR3200 a go. Unless your a lawyer, you might want to have one present to translate.

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jimmmmmm 5 years, 6 months ago

Anyone like Paul Krugman...I didn't think so. Well I do, and this is an interesting read.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/25/opinion/25krugman.html?_r=1

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jimmmmmm 5 years, 6 months ago

Speaking of polls. Chuck, you out there?

http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2009/09/25/us/politics/25pollgrx.html

Looks like more of the American public want a public option than previously thought. Better lock your doors folks, the socialists are coming. So are the census workers.

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seeuski 5 years, 6 months ago

Round and round we go. You make no sense my friend. You want us to believe our ears and not our eyes. Ain't going to happen in this lifetime pal.

But in the headlines today we have this: ACORN Funded Political, For-Profit Efforts, Data Show http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/09/24/AR2009092404249.html?sub=AR

Uh, this is a liberal paper, Me thinks Glenn Beck has created an uptick in old style journalism. Finally.

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seeuski 5 years, 6 months ago

I want to make a comment here about a man that deserves recognition as what a true liberal American should be. A man that I have always admired as honest and true to his beliefs. I may not agree with his ideology but I respect this man for his individuality and courage as a Liberal Democrat and that man is Pat Caddell.

Windle what was the date of that show, I'll watch it. Free Fritos tomorrow, hey there is a sign in the GP+G, free beer tomorrow. Cool.

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jimmmmmm 5 years, 6 months ago

Funny thing is Seeuski, I'm not sure anyone disagrees with you about ACORN, only you post about them nearly every time there's a keyboard near you. Topic is Health Care-post about ACORN. Topic is climate-post about ACORN. Topic is a local Real Estate issue-post about ACORN. Yes, they sound like a real screwed up organization, and it appears they won't be getting any more gov't funding. Good for Glenn Beck-I hope this is his legacy. He got the ball rolling, which may have exposed a really bad organization. Guess what-most people think bad organizations should go away-big deal right. I'm not sure many people really care. To be honest with you, I had never heard of ACORN until FIXED started in on them back during the campaign. Let's be honest, this is all about Obama, and trying to tie him to this group. That's just pathetic, but go with it, I wouldn't expect anything else out of you and the GOP-it's politics, and it's sad. Problem is, you and Glenn just can't find the piece of the puzzle that you want-the one that shows all this corruption is Obama's fault somehow. Good luck with that.

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trump_suit 5 years, 6 months ago

165 posts on this forum, and 60 of them from seeuski.....

See, doesn't it get old being the mouthpiece for Glenn Beck and having about 50% of your words turn out to be complete BS? From the Birther conspiracy to death panels to healthcare rationing, all of those points have turned out to be completely made up. Watch out for Acorn, these uneducated community volunteers have made some mistakes. Does that make it a conspiracy? Trump thinks this is a tempest in a teapot and that will be proved as the various investigations move forward just like the rest of your Glenn beck talking points.

You are very vocal but in the minority on this issue. Healthcare reform is needed and the American public supports that reform regardless of your FOX friends. In my opinion, you need to expand your news sources to get a better view of the big picture.

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JLM 5 years, 6 months ago

The issue with ACORN is symptomatic of the ills of cloaking political corruption --- garden variety old fashioned ward politics corruption --- with the trappings of legitimate, appropriately funded political grass roots organization.

ACORN is a corrupt organization from its earlest blackmailing of banks under the guise of 'red lining" to its voter fraud operation to its wholesale disregard for the law while pretending to dispense what is essentially legal and tax advice without the benefit of a law license or a CPA certification.

It is important to the American people because we have elected a man to office whose most significant body of professional work has been as a "community organizer" who has appointed a Sec of State whose undergrad thesis was written on Saul Alinsky --- the father of radical, illegal and obstructionist community organizing and rabble rousing.

Most folks in America had absolutely no idea what "community organizing" really meant until we elected one President and only thereafter did folks take notice.

ACORN and SEIU --- both founded by the same chap by the way --- are a cancer on the American body politic and deserve to be outed, explored, lanced and put out of businss like the boils they truly are.

I applaud Seeuski for his fact based observations and his critical thinking on this subject and I challenge his detractors to argue the facts and cease engaging in personal attacks. The facts are not on your side, so I understand why you have to attack the messenger.

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seeuski 5 years, 6 months ago

ACORN stands to get up to 8.5 $billion$ dollars of our money through the Obamacare bill so sorry to inform my friends here and that makes ACORN directly involved in the healthcare debate we are in. ACORN and Obama are directly tied together from the $800,000 dollars his campaign gave ACORN last year along with the legal work Obama did for ACORN in the 90's with the motor voter initiative. It is George Soros through links like the Appollo Alliance and the Tides foundation that funds these corrupt groups. Sometime in the near future when power has shifted away from those that hold it now we will see the onion peeled and it won't happen until then because as Obama said during his pro TV tour last weekend "I had no idea ACORN receives tax money" BS. He's the only one in the country to say that.

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trump_suit 5 years, 6 months ago

ACORN is small potatoes. It is a loosely organized body that has limited impact on American politics. While there are many loose cannons in the ACORN organization, there is very little overall effect and the funding received has been minimal.

Sure, wipe out their funding and investigate their actions. However the overall impact of ACORN on American polices and politics will be measured like Radon (in pico-curies). A very small number to be sure.

If you want to investigate something, lets try out a religious organization known as "C Street" which purports itself to be a bible study group for your congressmen. Problem is, that is not their real role in life. Google it............

ACORN has been around for decades. Do you really think that Saul Alinski is actively involved with Pres Obama and in the day to day activities of ACORN? Most of those videos that are being shown on the FOX network are setups plain and simple. They went into an unsuspecting ACORN office and taped some staged conversations. Where is the beef?

Tempest in a Teapot just like the Birther Conspiracy, Death Panels and the rationing of healthcare. FOX talking points to confuse the issue of Healthcare reform.

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seeuski 5 years, 6 months ago

ACORN Funded Political, For-Profit Efforts, Data Show

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/09/24/AR2009092404249.html?sub=AR

And I guess this is just a coincidence. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vJcVgJhNaU&feature=related

I had no idea ACORN was receiving tax money. Sure. Liar liar pants on fire.

Everyone is confused about the healthcare bill and it is not by accident. That is exactly how the reform plan was meant to be passed, not by knowing what the plan is but by Obama and his smooth sales tactics, gee wonder why he's been on every TV station lately. Why else would the Dems shoot down an amendment that the bill be available for 72 hours before voting on it? Is that representation of the people or dictatorship Chavez style?

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jimmmmmm 5 years, 6 months ago

With all due respect Mr. JLM, I think Seeuski can handle himself just fine. Personal attacks, I don't think so. A little heated debate, definately. I enjoy the few debates I've had on this board, and as far as any personal attacks, they're limited to changing Seeuski's name for my own pleasure. To list a few: Pukeski, Seeu-Glenn Beck's My Hero-ski, Seeu-spin-ski, and Grumpski (haven't used yet, but kind of like it). As far as fact based arguments-highly debatable. As far as being a desciple of the fear mongering and fact destroying cry baby known as Glenn Beck-oh that's right on the money.

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seeuski 5 years, 6 months ago

Oh, and jimmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmy, Beck learned from the Palin interviews what not to do or say to these MSM creeps.

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seeuski 5 years, 6 months ago

Remember this one? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Juy9Nw...

An embedded attitude comes through here, would he have said that to black female reporter? Never.

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JLM 5 years, 6 months ago

"Do you really think that Saul Alinsky is actively involved with Pres Obama and in the day to day activities of ACORN?"

Well, uhhh, no --- cause he's been dead since 1972, Rube!

Alinsky's impact on both Barrack Obama, community organizer, and Wade Rathke, founder of ACORN and SEIU, is well documented and they themselves have attributed their community organizing inspiration to Saul Alinsky primarily by his authorship of Reveille for Radicals and Rules for Radicals.

Heck, Barrack Obama used to teach ACORN seminars on community organizing using Saul Alinsky's Rules for Radicals as the intellectual basis for the classes.

Wade Radthke, who founded both ACORN and SEIU, is a public disciple of Alinsky's teachings and writings. In his own words!

To understand the implications of these kind of things, you would actually have to know the facts, critically evaluate what they mean and form an intelligent opinion. Give it a whirl, Bozo!

Go read Alinsky's writings and then research both Obama's and Rathke's pronouncements pertaining to Alinsky and then give it a bit of thought. It will be refreshing to have a fully informed opinion.

BTW, Hillary's 1969 Wellesley undergrad thesis topic? Uhhh, Saul Alinsky! "There is Only the Fight ... An Analysis of the Alinsky Model"

"Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it and polarize it."

Alinsky propounded a theory of class warfare which sought to marginalize the target. A real insight into Barrack H Obama, no?

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seeuski 5 years, 6 months ago

People who watch Glenn Beck regularly know exactly what he meant by the racist comments regarding Obama. Those of us who have our heads out of the sand and don't buy into the "I was in the pews for 20 years and never heard Wright say those things" or, we understand when Obama says in a similar way, " I don't know all the facts but the Cops acted stupidly". We know about Obamas lifelong association with the Black Separatist movement. We have seen the writings of Michelle Obama and heard in her own words how she feels about race relations in the USA. And now as President we see the tactics in action, spread the wealth programs are aimed at taking money from whom and giving it to whom? Obama's appointments/czars include some very racist characters like Van Jones who said "the whites are sending toxins in to the black communities" and Diversity czar Mark Lloyd who says, "There's nothing more difficult than this because we have really truly, good, white people in important positions, and the fact of the matter is that there are a limited number of those positions," he said.

"And unless we are conscious of the need to have more people of color, gays, other people in those positions, we will not change the problem. But we're in a position where you have to say who is going to step down so someone else can have power."

There has never been a President in my lifetime who has had this much controversy surrounding him and has stood silent. Silence in the wake of such statements from his own cabinet members is complicity. The description of Obama being racist or anti white that Beck made during an appearance on the O'Reilly show has merit.

Maybe some voice over might cement the issue. In his own words and how smooth he says it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iivL4c_3pck&feature=player_embedded

Redistribute=reparations.

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trump_suit 5 years, 6 months ago

Fakir, Poseuer, Naif - JLM, your opinion of Pres. Obama has been long set in stone. I do not beleive that he could do anything that you would support.

Saul Alinski - Dead since 1972 and yet you are still scared of him. Barrack Obama was 11 when he died. How much influence do you think he had in young Mr. Obama's life.

I attack seeuski's position because he/she has been so aggressive about getting those Glenn Back talking points onto these forums only to have them refuted in subsequent weeks.

Thank you for calling me a "bozo" and a "rube" I am sure that really helps you make your debate points and to sleep well at night. While I chose to attack some of the positions taken on these forums, I have not made any personal attacks on anyone and have consistently called for civility in our words to each other.

In my opinion, you have already lost the arguement when you resort to name calling and scary stories. I promise to keep my words to the topic at hand and based on my thoughts and opinions on the subject, not personal slander and attacks.

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seeuski 5 years, 6 months ago

trumpy, Can you please point me in the direction of which positions of Glenn Beck have been refuted. And it wouldn't hurt if you at least acknowledge that I have some ability to think on my own, otherwise you may just continue to revert to the usual lefty tactics of, "Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it and polarize it." It gets old my friend.

Can you actually describe my above post as from Glenn Beck or isn't that Obama's voice along with Van Jones and Mark Lloyd's statements? Please help me understand your thought patterns here by maybe attacking what they have said which has lead me to my position which you attack. A position I felt before Glenn Beck voiced his same feelings on the subject I might add which should be scary to you because recent polling suggests that as much as 1/2 of Americans have these same feelings, not just Glenn Beck.

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Brian Kotowski 5 years, 6 months ago

trump_suit:

If you are unable to see the American Left's (including Obama's) connection to the Alinsky manifesto, then you haven't been paying attention. Even the liberal Washington Post and the even more liberal NPR aren't so blind: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/24/AR2007032401152.html , http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=10305695

As for this: "Barrack Obama was 11 when he died. How much influence do you think he had in young Mr. Obama's life."

A non-sequitur, at BEST. Hell, you and I and the President weren't even an itch in our daddy's drawers when Jefferson & Madison wrote the Declaration & the Constitution, respectively. Absurd to believe, therefore, that these cadavers could have had any influence on our lives and worldviews.

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Brian Kotowski 5 years, 6 months ago

So many legitimate reasons to blast the President, and you zone in on utterly trivial pc claptrap?

Get a grip.

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JLM 5 years, 6 months ago

@ trumpy ---

Actually I agree with a great number of President Obama's policies in particular those of the Bush administration pertaining to combatting terrorism which he has adopted wholeheartedly now that he is receiving the Presidential Daily Brief.

There is much to disagree with and there is almost nothing which he has initiated which has thus far been successful. He has exhibited the classic neophyte's error of trying to do too much too soon and he has abdicated his policymaking perogative to the US Congress, in particular Pelosi and Reid. Not a winning strategy thus far.

In all fairness, he has only been in office a short time but he has managed to muck up things fairly well so he is a quick learner.

I guess I am still of the same opinion as................................Hillary Clinton. Not ready for prime time!

Of course, he will probably get the Olympics for Chicago but maybe not do so well in Afghanistan. It's all about priorities.

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jimmmmmm 5 years, 6 months ago

Just a few questions for JLM. What part of Bush's Admin. terrorism policy did you agree with?

What has the Obama Admin. "mucked up", that wasn't already completely "mucked up"?

When you say "nothing has been successful", what are you refering to?

Just curious what your opinion is of "doing well" in Afghanistan?

Sorry for the questions, but would love to hear your educated answers.

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JLM 5 years, 6 months ago

@ jim e ---

I think the record indicates that W's policies --- left undisturbed by O --- pertaining to pooling international information, interdicting Al Q overseas, the Patriot Act (no real problems with library cards, right?), supporting Pakistan while holding one's nose firmly, pursuing the war in Afghanistan and wire tapping have all been successful. The piece de resistance --- keeping Gates as Sec Def because there is not a single credible Democrat in the entire country who could fill that job.

Obama has singlehandedly managed to completely demoralize the CIA perhaps to the verge of destroying it --- first with his ridiculous assertions about torture to find out that only 3 Aaaaarabs had been waterboarded and the intelligence take was impressive with the Sheikh KSM providing instruction on the organization of Al Qaeda which qualified for CLE for the lawyers, appointing a political hack like Leon Pannetta who promptly got into a slap fight with Nancy Pelosi, deciding to allow investigation and potentially the criminalization of the CIA's interrogation policies --- all at an instant in time when the CIA is a critical element of our counterterrorist strategy.

Obama was resigned to putting GM through bankruptcy but only after spending almost $30B propping them up to avoid bankruptcy and losing all that investment in the freakin' bankruptcy while demonizing the legitimate secured bond holders whose interest in bankruptcy was and is always superior to unsecured creditors. If that was not bad enough, he turned over a huge chunk of the "new" GM to labor whose unwillingness to negotiate wage concessions contributed to the demise of GM. All this was overseen by an 18 person "car committee" whose membership owned a single American car amongst the whole lot of them.

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JLM 5 years, 6 months ago

O has managed to offend the entire British nation --- perhaps our only reliable military ally in the world and surely in NATO just now --- with churlish behavior and the dopiest gifts ever conveyed by a President.

O has managed to alienate Israel at an instant in time that their steadfastness might be critical to the resolution of the Iranian nuclear situation. To say nothing of starting another war by bombing Iran because of American ineffectiveness and intransigence.

He has managed to screw up the closing of Gitmo in an amateurish manner announcing its closure without a plan as to where to send the prisoners --- well, except for the ONE going to France LOL --- and after being advised by his own appointee Greg Craig --- or is it Craig Greg --- that the idea of imprisoning dangerous terrorists on an ISLAND has a lot of merit after all.

He has managed to inject racism into almost every corner of his administration while decrying the advent of racism at every turn. He has appointed czars whose only qualification was their race (e.g. Van Jones, et al) and made an absurd ill informed knee jerk reaction to the Skip Gates incident. Of course, everybody got a free beer at the White House picnic table out of it. What a guy!

Even Obama has had to go short on ACORN after telling us he didn't realize they received any money from the US government? Huh?

Of course, I think Chicago has a real chance at the Olympics, don't you and isn't that a whole lot more important than say --- healthcare! The Olympics will be in Rio anyway!

But, hey, Obama still is the only honest politician to ever issue forth form the clutches of the Chicago political machine, no? LOL

I just wish I had more time to help you, my friend.

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JLM 5 years, 6 months ago

After having called Afghanistan the "war of necessity" and pledging to add troops while a candidate, now President Obama has to "study" things a bit before making the most fundamental decision a Commander in Chief must make.

While I certainly agree that President Obama has inherited a lot of trouble --- he did want the job and promised to sort it all out, did he not? --- he has had ample time to "study" A'stan.

Oh there will be a wonderful stentorian high minded speech replete with noble sentiments about sending young men into harm's way but in the end he will emerge as the weak sister he has already shown himself to be.

The guy who backs down before the Russians on the missile defense shield, the guy who is unable to deal with the Iranians wanting to talk rather than imposing a blockade or other sanctions, the guy who has to be dragged kicking and screaming to deal with Chinese trade infractions and the guy who opens Cuba with Cuba on the ragged edge of failure and gets nothing in return. A shmo who gets padded down in public like a hooker by Hugo Chavez. Thanking an a$$ clown like Chavez for giving him a book assailing the US written in freakin' Spanish.

When Chavez and Castro are singing your praises, you need to change the sheet music. Or rent some cojones, maybe?

Russia, Iran, China, Cuba, the Taliban, Al Qaeda know this guy is a weak sister and is unable to deal with them.

He is at his core a community organizer, an administrator, a clerk. Chair a UN session, head a delegation to the Olympics --- he's your man. Stand up to terrorism or evil in the world, not so much!

Hell, he can't stand up to Nancy Pelosi. Or Harry Reid.

This guy is not a leader, he is a clerk. A clerk who can give a wonderful speech --- a fabulous speaker but at his core a scared clerk.

I predict that President Obama dithers while Afghanistan burns and that he eventually agrees on some half measure and we are out of Afghanistan --- like the Russians before us --- within a year or two.

And, then, we will really be in a fix.

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jimmmmmm 5 years, 6 months ago

Thanks JLM for your educated response. I enjoy reading your posts because not only are they well written, but you know your stuff as well (Canyon 'Break' Wind, not so much-I'll get to you in due time). But, the paranoia you convey in your posts goes unmatched! Holy right wing conservative Republican Batman. I feel like I just watched an entire episode of Hannity. Are you Seeuski in JLM clothing? You guys should do lunch.

Anyway, I'm not going to pretend I know much about the GM takeover, I don't. I do know they had been in trouble for a long time, and it was in the country's best interests to bail them out. Even your boy W wrote a check for 17 billion +-, with hardly any strings attached. Maybe the details of the takeover you don't like. Downside of losing an election I guess. I say find some true leaders, and win some elections.

"Obama has singlehandedly managed to completely demoralize the CIA perhaps to the verge of destroying it."

This is classic Fixed News wingnuttery. I wish you'd leave that crap to them. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the investigation into torture begin before O was elected? Hasn't he stated that he will not prosecute? The investigation may go on, which is politics as usual, but maybe if there were some serious wrongdoings, then maybe they should be exposed. Think ACORN. Once again, this is a right wing talking point that you guys will blow out of proportion.

The whole Israel situation is extremely complex, and how right wing of you to say that Obama has alienated them, when they need our help. When the war breaks out between Iran and Israel, I'm sure you'll say it was O's fault. Classic wingnuttery. Right, things in that region were stable before Obama's election. Save it for Fixed News please.

As far as your talking points on the Afghanistan situation, let's hope Obama and his aides think this through for a change. Your partisanship really shines through here. This war was started 8 years ago! Damn right he should think it through, as should've W. How many soldiers have we lost to this war? Now with the corruption in there own government, what's are purpose for being there, and can we even make a difference amidst such corruption.

It's a common right wing talking point to make assertions that O is neglecting the true problems facing our country, while dealing with the more trivial things such as the Olympics. But that's all that is, right wing talking points. As your here Sarah Palin so eloquently stated, "It's about shoring up the economy...job creation...health care...stumble trip, stumble trip". Again, when you guys find some leadership that actually appeals to the American public, the pendulum will swing back your way, and you might win some elections.

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canyonwind 5 years, 6 months ago

I never new there were soooo many simpletons in Steamboat or worst yet these people are just plane STUPID!!!!!!! Anyone who thinks people that protest the government are all white racist tea baggers. For one thing try learning some history the term is Tea Party was the name of the very first tax protest. The use of theTea Bagger term just shows people that you are ignorent like many Big City politicians, this is Steamboat not Los Angeles.
Another thing, Obama got over 45% of the WHITE VOTE by running as a moderate mainstream DEM, however he has shown himself to be a Left Wing Extremest with things like CAP and TRADE that will drive energy cost into orbit (remember last years gas prices) the CBO says $1900 a year increase in energy cost on average, but what will be the cost in NW COLO ??? We are a coal burning very cold weather region. What will our cost be??? His public option or I should say the California option, Waxman and Pelosi will drive taxes up on everyone not just those that make over $100,000/ yr. So one would have to be very stupid to think that only RACIST oppose OBAMA. Its hard to beleave that people that STUPID live here in Steamboat.
Then there is the people that think FOX news is run by the ghost of Ronald Reagan. Just because there ratings are the best just means there news is TRUE.

However there is other good news, has anyone noticed all the cars that no longer have Obama stickers, some would say voters remorse is RACIST however Bill Ritters days are numbered along with a few other Cololrado DEMS, after all this has always been a RED STATE and in 2010 Cololrado will shine once again. 2012 will bring us a new president, since this is a center Right Country not a socialist one that Obama thought he could change. Speaking of change are there any teachers out there that have the power to pick Text books??? Glenn Becks Arguing with Idiots should be read by all Colorado High School kids before graduate....

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David Hill 5 years, 6 months ago

Very good op-ed piece in today's Washington Post regarding Obama's shortcomings so far in office. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/09/28/AR2009092802484.html

The concerns during the campaign of his inexperience and not ready for prime time are unfortunately being displayed in most of his actions to date.

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jimmmmmm 5 years, 6 months ago

"O has managed to offend the entire British nation." What the heck is that statement? Classic wingnuttery. Don't tell me this is about the gift giving incident. Unbelievable the mountains you righty's make out of mole hills. I'm sure you'll also agree that with Tony Blair and George Bush gone, things have changed a bit. Gordon Brown made a calculated decision to distance himself from America's leadership. Our relationship with the U.K. has been up and down for years, and only until the Iraq war did are leaders truly see eye to eye.

This statement really got me, "He has managed to inject racism into almost every corner of his administration while decrying the advent of racism at every turn."

Unbelievable. He injected racism? Of all your intelligent posts, this is about the most knuckleheaded right wingnutter statements I've ever read. Not even going there, that's just politics as usual, and complete crap.

Again, the political pendulum is always swinging, and I'm in hopes of some true leadership to come out of the Republican Party. Who's it gonna be? Maulkin? Palin? chuckle chuckle.

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jimmmmmm 5 years, 6 months ago

This made me laugh.

Not sure if your capable of laughter Seeuski, but this is pretty funny. Don't worry, it's not Dolberman; I wouldn't want to get your ulcer all fired up.

http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/heather/countdown-snl-spoofs-glenn-beck

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JLM 5 years, 6 months ago

@ jimmeeee ---

"wing nut, wingnuttery, right wing, wingnutter" ... deep, clever, critical thinking! Well done, Bozo. You must be a Mensa member?

You should know something about the GM deal because the administration tried to keep these clowns out of bankruptcy by slapping them with YOUR checkbook and $30B later they filed bankruptcy, lost YOUR investment and allowed a company to emerge from bankruptcy which has no higher probability for success and survival than before. They were pandering to the UAW and that's raw politics. Worse, it's not even smart politics.

One does not have to be a supporter of the former administration to be a fair critic of the current administration. The excesses and errors are simply that --- boneheaded decisions. Both administrations and the Congress are in line for a whipping. A pox on all their houses. Criticism does not have to imply partisanship.

President Obama has decided that there is a diplomatic path to resolving the Iran situation. He said as much during the campaign and he has agreed to a bi-lateral dialogue with Iran --- an ego sop for Mahmoud surely. Why?

While making such an accomodation, he possessed a damning piece of information --- the Iranians were building a second nuclear enrichment facility adjacent to the holy city of Qom. He outed them last Friday in the presence of the G-20 and yet he still persists in wanting to sit down for a chat w/ a brutal madman in the hands of some twisted mullahs.

One doesn't build a second nuclear enrichment facility dug into a mountainside if one is simply trying to develop nuclear power fuel rods --- which can be purchased from GE. On sale next Thursday BTW.

The most important question pertaining to Iran is simply --- OR WHAT? If they fail to act in accordance with international norms, to submit to IAEA inspection, to curtail their nuclear weapons development, if they develop nuclear weapons, miniaturize nuclear weapons, configure delivery systems and configure reliable targetting systems --- what then? OR WHAT?

They're grounded? Go to time out? Or the Israelis are going to solve the problem? We will not reach New Years Day without this issue being resolved either by the US or the Israelis.

We have a huge strategic interest --- actually a bit greater than whether the Olympics are in Rio or Chicago --- at stake here and we have a limited period of time to solve it.

How does $400 per barrell oil sit with you, Rube?

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JLM 5 years, 6 months ago

The CIA is the good guys. These are the guys lurking in the shadows when we are all sleeping, dealing with folks who are prepared to betray their countries and doing it for a small paycheck and the desire to keep us safe and free. We need guys lurking in the shadows because the world is a dangerous place. A very dangerous place and there are people who spend their entire lives trying to kill us just because of the accident of our births as Americans. The CIA protects us from such vermin.

Theirs is not the world of absolutes and tidy rules which are devoid of situational ethics and bad choices. Sometimes the only choice they have is a bad one or a worse one. But they are not doing it for personal gain. We need the CIA, we want the CIA (imagine Jack Nicholson's voice saying that).

President Obama sends a politician rather than an intelligence professional to run the CIA at a critical time. This political hack promptly gets into a slap fight with Nancy Pelosi who has just gotten done insulting the CIA and questioning its very existence because her pocketbook does not match her fingernail polish --- or Leon Panetta's for that matter.

The Congress cannot be trusted with real secrets. I wouldn't trust them with the combination on a refrigerator. They are totally untrustworthy.

The administration and the President in particular get into a controversy about releasing years old pictures of Abu Ghraib and some CIA interrogations to the last seven people in the world who have not yet seen them.

Then his Attorney General goes rogue indicating he is going to investigate the CIA's former policies thereby criminalizing their behavior and criminalizing the provision of legal opinions themselves. All after the Prez said we were looking to the future rather than the past.

So how does this impact CIA morale?

Every CIA agent is now building a stock of documents protecting his conduct, destroying any documents which indict his conduct and making plans to retire and move far, far away. Beyond the reach of the administration. Costa Rica -- a country without an extradition treaty?

Work product quality at a critical time in the life of our Republic? Hmmm, not too good.

Recruiting at the Agency? Hmmm, also not too good!

The need for the CIA to be on their toes doing their job with vigor, enthusiasm and creativity? Highest it has ever been.

I know --- George W Bush's fault and wingnuttery, of course. But consider the idea that when you personally need a strong, vigilant CIA they are flipping the bird at Mr Obama and think what it might cost you. Me? I want a tough, vigilant CIA and if they color outside the lines on ocassion --- well I believe in confession, forgiveness and redemption but I dig the CIA.

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JLM 5 years, 6 months ago

The Brits are the only real allies we have in the world and have always been --- well at least since we rebelled against the King and that little dust up back in 1812.

They are our only allies in Afghanistan who are willing to actually commit to fighting the enemy. The rest of them want to plant ground cover and provide immunizations to the populace. The Brits are willing to engage in combat.

Gordon Brown is on his last legs due to his policies, his governance, the expense scandal and the times. Obama missed at least ten opportunities to prop up his ally at a time of his need --- joint press conference when Brown visited America, big picture op, joint press conference at the recent UN meeting.

Obama not only failed to assist his ally but he insulted him by making it clear that he did not want to allow Brown to use a bit of the reflected Obama glory to buttress his failing position. He made the Prime Minister of England beg for a meeting and then scurry through the UN Building's kitchen to have a cup of coffee with him. When do allies really need you? When they really need you.

The US needs England and Brown needed Obama --- and Obama blew it. He blew it big time. Like Hillary said: "Not ready for prime time! Too inexperienced!" But the man gives a damn good speech!

Judge Brown as you will but he is the English leader just now and we desperately need England at our side.

Obama has literally treated both Chavez and Ahmadinejad with greater care and consideration than our only ally.

Now the gifts? Just dopey. Of course, I am sure that Queen Elizabeth is lulling herself to bed each night listening to Obama's speeches. He gives a great speech and who knows maybe the idea of a black man in the Queen's bed in the dark hours turns her or Prince Philip on? LOL

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jimmmmmm 5 years, 6 months ago

Hey JLM-You forgot "knuckleheaded right winger".

Name calling aside (I'll let your bozo comment slide-what's a rube?), you make a good point, but I'm not sure what your argument is as far as Israel goes. Yes, we do have obvious interests in the region-it doesn't take a Rhodes Scholar to realize that. But, are you saying we should strike first? Should we let Israel strike first? Should anyone strike? I'm not sure what your point is. Geographically, having a military presence in Iraq will drag us into a war with Iran if Israel strikes. Are you saying that $400 a barrel will be unavoidable somehow, regardless of who sends bombs inside of Iran? Can you say "rally around the flag"? I welcome some serious thought to this situation. Are you saying we should take the Bush/Cheney approach, bomb now and think later?

By the way, your comment about the queens bed is a bit juvenile, don't you think. You definately know your stuff, your sense of humor though....that's troubling.

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canyonwind 5 years, 6 months ago

JIMMMMMMMMM

        Iam not a Republican and yes I never was a big fan of GWB.  I look at the ISSUES not the party or fool in the White house. Back when BUSH was in the WH my right wing friends gave me a hard time about my libertarion feelings towards Bush jr.  BUSH increased spending more than any other president since the great DEM and war monger Lynden B Johnson. Bush was more liberal than Bill Clinton.  Then Last summer I was 100% against the Bush McCain Amnesty plan for Illegals.  Just how high would unemployment be right now if we allowed the 16+ Million Illegals in this country. Alot of those folks would have ended up here in Routt County but most would have gone to urban cesspools like Denver, Los Angeles, Chicago and El Paso.  I was against all his bailout for the millionairs on Wall st and I was no fan of the Iraq war.  McCain's ideas about Climate change were no different that Al Gores.  So JiMMMMMMM do not refer to me as a REPUBLICAN, I am a independent thinker not a fool that follows 1 of the 2 parties that are almost the same but right now the reason to vote Republican is to get the DEMS out and that should be easy here in Colorado since it leans to the right.  BTW I have never praised GWB or Sean Hannety I do like Glenn Beck because he is also a free thinker not a (D) or a (R) he was also on CNN.  Well Jimmmmmmm I will let you get back to your little hero Obama
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jimmmmmm 5 years, 6 months ago

Hey CanyonBreaksWind,

Go check your facts you big gas bag.

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seeuski 5 years, 6 months ago

To those good people wasting there fingertips on the informationally challenged jimmmmmmmmmmmmbo as he has described himself when all else fails like the facts.

Fact: Iran is run by a small group of religious zealots who believe the 12th Imam is going to come and bring peace to the world under the banner of Islam, you a Muslim jimmmmmmmm? didn't think so, and that the way that happens is when these believers cause chaos, destruction and death. They have said that they want to hasten this event and Amadenajad again ended his speech at the UN by making that statement while praising Allah. He calls the US the Great Satan and Israel Little Satan. To those that want to continue the belief that by moving away from support for Israel we will tamp down this hatred you are dumb. That was the word that came to mind first, anyway, should Israel sit and wait on the policy ineffectiveness of this country? Would anyone in their right mind allow an enemy who has promised your destruction to finalize the tool of that destruction? What leader would be serving his people by allowing the final solution as promised by that enemy? When Israel took out Saddam Husseins nuclear sites in 1981 the World condemned it in public but behind closed doors the relief was immeasurable. Israels own antagonistic neighbors want Iran dealt with and many experts have said they would quietly approve and even turn a blind eye if Israel can successfully destroy or damage the Iranian nuclear program. So jimmmmmmmmmm the question to you is why, why would the apparent enemies of Israel want the Israelis to eliminate the nuclear capabilities of Iran?

Oh, and I am uninterested in your sources of fact videos. I'll watch those sources that provide the news and not so much opinion fueled by hate and love, hate for the Conservatives and love for one man, Obama. Now go watch your Obama videos that those school kids made for you.

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jimmmmmm 5 years, 6 months ago

Holy *hit Seeuski, sit down, grab a cold drink or something. The video was a Saturday Night Live skit. Just trying to put a smile on your musty mug. I see a lot of humor in all of this, so just try and bear with me. If I post something, most likely there's a humorous slant to it. So you can untangle your panties there captain.

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seeuski 5 years, 6 months ago

We are all mortal oh great one windle. And we are over it but we are not giving up the fight oh immortal one. A little info, it is not real ink you are reading. And I hope you don't pollute by exhaling unfiltered oh great earthy one.

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JLM 5 years, 6 months ago

Yo, windle, babe, very deep --- deeeeeeeeeep --- stuff! Very well done and very, very insightful.

By the way, I am taking the EARTH out for a night on the town Friday night. We are going to dine at Mambo Italiano and catch a show then we're gonna have smores with all the little critters.

So don't tell me how to treat the earth and all its creatures cause I treat them damn well. You ask the EARTH whether I showed that babe a good time on Friday night.

You a$$ clown!

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JLM 5 years, 6 months ago

In any assessment as to what Iran would do or what should be done about Iran always remember they lost 500,000 men in their war with Iraq, they used chemical weapons and the guys who are in charge now were young men at that time. If one doesn't become a pacifist from the wars of ones youth, then one becomes a zealot. There are a lot of zealots in Iran and they erroneously think they had something to do with the demise of Saddam Hussein.

They are lead by a crazy guy who is crazy on a number of fronts. They suffer delusions of grandeur spawned from when they were an American client state but they have no meaningful army, air force or navy. They are great at getting Hezbollah and their ilk to kill women and children. They are the the largest state sponsors of terrorism in the world and that is on a calm day.

Iran is controlled by a shadowy group of mullahs --- about whom western intelligence knows next to nothing and who have virtually no outside sources of intelligence themselves but all of whom think they are the 12th Imam --- who are beyond being true believers while the general populace is well educated and otherwise enjoys a fairly high standard of living.

The only tricks we have up our sleeve are diplomacy, coalition building with our allies(?), direct sanctions (well at least try to keep GE from trading with them), UN sanctions, naval blockade, selective destruction of public facilities (e.g. Teheran Int'l Airport); destruction and delay of their nuclear program by hitting enrichment plants, electric plants, infrastructure of their nuclear facilities, rocket launching sites and military airports and all out war to topple the existing regime. Not a very pretty dance card.

It is not a pretty picture given that the Iranians will try to block the Straits of Hormuz. Our Navy and Air Force can keep the Straits open but not without suffering meaningful casualties (the Iranians have the Exocet missile) and not without constant vigilance. Oil meanwhile goes to $400 per barrel and the rest of the Middle East gets even richer.

However I for one am absolutely certain this will all end up with Barack and Skipper Ahmadinejad having a couple of cold brews at a picnic table under the trees on the White House lawn. I expect Barry and Mahmoud to become fast friends and the whole thing to blow over.

Maybe Barack can promise Mo a bunch of good tickets to the 2016 Olympics?

Hey our guy is a charmer and he is very, very experienced at this kind of stuff. Right? Right?

Unfortuantely our guy is an officious over blown clerk with his own delusions of grandeur who has not a clue at how to deal with this situation but luckily we have the Senator from MBNA and Hillary advising him.

Or I expect to see the Israelis turn the Iranian landscape into glass before New Years.

Oh well!

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trump_suit 5 years, 6 months ago

I am sure that as a "Bozo" and "Rube" that my opinion doesn't matter much to you, but my vote counts just as much. You lost the last election badly and are stuck with the results. If all you have left are scary stories and made up attacks, you will lose the next election cycle also.

Pres Obama is not as bad as you have painted him and is not the saint that the liberal left would like. The current administration is slogging it's way thru the mess left them by the previous administration and if you don't like what has been done for the last 10 months then you should look to the administration that created many of our current problems.

If we had stayed out of Iraq and not actively lied to the world community about their efforts we may be getting a better response from the world community when we cry wold about Iran. We fought the wrong battle and are now paying for that mistake.

For the record:

Torture is an abomination that should never have happened.

Illegal wiretapping and warrentless electronic surveilance of American citizens is a vilolation of our rights that should never have happened.

The war in Iraq should have never been started.

President Obama was born in Hawaii.

Death Panels were NEVER part of the healthcare reform package.

medicare is NOT on the chopping block.

Bush started the GM bailout process, not Obama. That company should have been alowed to fail in Nov/Dec. 2008. Once the Bush admin dropped 17B on it what were we supposed to do to? I forget who was pres., but did we not bail out Chysler in the 80's and get paid back pretty well? Micracles can happen.

Bush allowed both Iran and North Korea to develop nuclear weapons and related technology. This happened on his watch and now you want to blame Obama. history will prove what a clown Bush is/was.

As a staunch Republican, no one expects you to like what a Democratic President does, but you could at least stick to the facts and debate points instead of the name calling and scary stories that make up the bulk of your diatribe. I fail to see how you blame the current administration for their efforts to clean up the mistakes of the previous one. Bush left us in two wars, an economy in a serious tailspin and a standing in the world community that has never been lower.

I my opinion, just getting rid of Bush was a step in the right direction regardless of who took over. We should have elected John McCain in 2000 instead of a clown once 2008 rolled around, his time was past. The backlash put Pres. Obama in office and unless you provide some positive reasons instead of scary stories and personnal attacks he will most likely be re-elected in 2012.

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JLM 5 years, 6 months ago

@ trumpy ---

Not to color a good rant w/ any real facts but the GM funding went something like this.

In Dec 2008 (after the Presidential elections and in consultation with the President-elect), Bush authorized the extension of $13.7B in secured financing (read Debtor in Possession financing --- DIP) as a prelude to an "orderly restructuring" (read bankruptcy filing).

The source of this funding was the initial $700B TARP (Troubled Asset Relief Program) funding authorized by Congress for shoring up the banks and other uses to prevent systemic economic failure in the US credit and banking markets.

Much later, after it had become obvious to every knucklehead in America that GM was going to fail, the Obama administration lent $30B unsecured to GM to prevent their filing bankruptcy. Obviously this was in retrospect a disingenuous action as GM was ultimately going to be forced into bankruptcy and, in fact, the Obama administration did force them into bankruptcy. So the guys who gave them $30B knew they were going to force them into bankruptcy thereby ensuring the money would never be repaid BEFORE they even gave them the money.

If GM was going to be forced into bankruptcy why would any financier provide funding which would be consumed in the bankruptcy itself (read you don't get back your unsecured funding in bankruptcy proceedings).

So, why did they do it?

To assuage the UAW, to enable GM to make payroll to the UAW, to allow GM to fund the 3200 union workers on the bench and to enable GM to fund the union pension fund obligations. This is called raw, payback politics.

At the end of the day, the Obama administration has used the TARP funding, GM being the exemplar, as a political slush fund. Not unlike they have used the Stimulus (a different larger pot of money to be lost) as the culmination of every politician's porky wet dreams and have funded every pork barrel request that ever came down the pike.

Please recall that the Stimulus was the necessary medicine to inoculate the economy from exceeding 8% unemployment. No Stimulus, well then unemployment might rise above, say, 8%!

That's worked out pretty well, right?

Do the geniuses in the Obama administration bear any responsibility for their own decisionmaking or are they still just channelling Bush? Is Bush still in charge?

Obama is a clerk, not a very good one but he can give one hell of a speech!

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canyonwind 5 years, 6 months ago

JIMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

   Wow I see you don't like it when the facts are true.  And yes I reread my last 2 post and all facts were on the money.  You on the other hand never present a argument for or opposed any issue.  Talking Smack seems to be your little calling card and all I can tell about you is that you are very insecure, narrow minded and you might be from somewhere back east and you dislike people who are a different race than you and you are a democrat, low income and a high school drop out.
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Brian Kotowski 5 years, 6 months ago

trump-suit:

You write: "Torture is an abomination that should never have happened."

That's debatable (prominent libs like Alan Dershowitz disagree with you - http://edition.cnn.com/2003/LAW/03/03/cnna.Dershowitz/); it may also hinge upon what you consider to be torture. For the record, here are the 6 so-called "enhanced interrogation techniques authorized by the Bush administration:

  1. The Attention Grab: The interrogator forcefully grabs the shirt front of the prisoner and shakes him.

  2. Attention Slap: An open-handed slap aimed at causing pain and triggering fear.

  3. The Belly Slap: A hard open-handed slap to the stomach. The aim is to cause pain, but not internal injury. Doctors consulted advised against using a punch, which could cause lasting internal damage.

  4. Long Time Standing: This technique is described as among the most effective. Prisoners are forced to stand, handcuffed and with their feet shackled to an eye bolt in the floor for more than 40 hours. Exhaustion and sleep deprivation are effective in yielding confessions.

  5. The Cold Cell: The prisoner is left to stand naked in a cell kept near 50 degrees. Throughout the time in the cell the prisoner is doused with cold water.

  6. Water Boarding: The prisoner is bound to an inclined board, feet raised and head slightly below the feet. Cellophane is wrapped over the prisoner's face and water is poured over him. Unavoidably, the gag reflex kicks in and a terrifying fear of drowning leads to almost instant pleas to bring the treatment to a halt.

I have been unable to track down which of these (if any) the Obama administration has signed off on. If anyone can educate me (and provide a relevant link), I'd appreciate it. On the other hand, we DO know that President Obama has green lighted the policy of rendition - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/barackobama/4425135/Barack-Obama-to-allow-anti-terror-rendition-to-continue.html For those unfamiliar with the policy, it allows the U.S. to get around our own anti-torture policies by shipping prisoners to countries like Morocco and Egypt for questioning; where there are NO prohibitions against torture. Do you find the President to be an "abomination" as a result, trump_suit? If not, why not?

You write: "Illegal wiretapping and warrentless [sic] electronic surveilance [sic] of American citizens is a vilolation [sic] of our rights that should never have happened."

The President disagrees with you, and has ordered his lawyers and your tax dollars to vigorously defend the policy: http://www.inteldaily.com/news/144/ARTICLE/10296/2009-04-06.html

You write: "The war in Iraq should have never been started." I couldn't disagree more. I think it's one of the few things W got right.

You write: "If we had stayed out of Iraq and not actively lied to the world:" I think I know what you're getting at, but prefer to avoid assumptions. About what did we "actively lie"?

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Brian Kotowski 5 years, 6 months ago

Continued:

You write: "President Obama was born in Hawaii." Yep. Birthers & Truthers: two sides of the same sociopothy.

You write: "Death Panels were NEVER part of the healthcare reform package." I hope you're right, but I'm skeptical. So-called death panels are the logical extension of rationed care, which IS part of the Baucus bill (actually H.R. 3200 http://peters.house.gov/uploads/HR3200%20Full%20Text.pdf , and sponsored by Baucus in the Senate) - and why do you suppose the President and his party are so opposed to posting their own bill online? Seems like it would be a good way to put this question to bed, once and for all. or mabee we jes two stooopid.

You write: "medicare is NOT on the chopping block." A clever evasion of what the GOP has been complaining about; specifically: Medicare Advantage. It presently covers over 10 million seniors with private insurance plans. Its objective is to provide enrollees with many more options from which to pick & choose & higher quality care as a result. It has been sufficiently successful that there's been a bi-partisan initiative to increase its scope. H.R. 3200 will slash it by $172 billion; Baucus has proposed reducing it by another $123 billion.

I've been careful to avoid "scary stories and personnal [sic] attacks".

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seeuski 5 years, 6 months ago

Recent anger has Nancy Pelosi fearful and near tears. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u46QoT...

And why not these people are crazy and about to snap at the drop of a hat. http://www.11alive.com/video/?maven_playerId=immersiveplayer3&maven_referralObject=1208541313

and.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pu46bo5jeYM

I am locking my doors. What representation we have in America.

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Brian Kotowski 5 years, 6 months ago

The warrrentless wiretapping link included in my previous post appears to have expired. Here's another: http://www.eff.org/press/archives/2009/04/05

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Brian Kotowski 5 years, 6 months ago

Senators unanimously reject ID requirement for immigrant healthcare: http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/60939-senators-turn-back-id-requirement-for-immigrant-healthcare

"The bill, authored by committee Chairman Max Baucus (D-Mont.), would require applicants to verify their names, places of birth and Social Security numbers."

The President and the Democrats claim that illegals will not be covered on our dime under their bill. Yet, every time the GOP tries to include language to insure that enrollees are legit, the Dems flush it down the crapper.

Joe Wilson was right.

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seeuski 5 years, 6 months ago

Can anybody explain why the President of the US has chosen to close Auto Dealer franchises that are privately owned and don't cost the Manufacturer's, GM and Chrysler which are now owned by the UAW and Taxpayers along with Canada, one dime to operate? How can we as Americans sit by while the private property rights of these people which are protected by the Constitution are stomped on? What is motivating the Administration to take property from one American and giving that property to someone else? New youtube videos are now being made by the victims of this Administration.

Will the ripoff of these Americans private property rights be compensated? We shall see. http://www.detnews.com/article/20090930/AUTO01/909300401/1361/GM--Chrysler-meet-with-congressional-leaders-on-dealer-closings

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canyonwind 5 years, 6 months ago

CU ski

    Obama closed the dealership that were making a profit and allowed dealerships to stay open if they met certain requirements.  I don't know what it took to stay open but the news story on FOX said nothing about ACORN, SEIU or the DNC.  I have my own opinion but if my last name was COOK I would send ACORN a check.
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seeuski 5 years, 6 months ago

It's been reported that the Administration looked at the campaign donations of the Dealerships and that the new Dealerships are either minority owned or heavy DNC contributors. I also feel that the SEIU and UAW will benefit in a large way through further unionization of workers in the new Dealerships. It's all part of the big plan. One other thing to mention in the theft of private property by the Government is the Bondholders who were ripped off for the UAW stake in the post bankruptcy of GM and Chrysler.

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seeuski 5 years, 6 months ago

Thank you IOC you just saved the American taxpayers billions of dollars and kept the corrupt from enriching themselves on the backs of the poor and the hardworking. Now, how much taxpayer dough did Obama blow on this unnecessary jaunt as the unemployment rate climbs past 10% and General Mccrystal awaits an audience?

And it is time the Olympics are held in S. America for the first time.

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