Routt County Sheriff's Office evidence supervisor Mellisa Baumgartner, right, and technician Dawn Smith process marijuana plants Tuesday at the office that were seized from a Hayden home last week.

Photo by Matt Stensland

Routt County Sheriff's Office evidence supervisor Mellisa Baumgartner, right, and technician Dawn Smith process marijuana plants Tuesday at the office that were seized from a Hayden home last week.

Arrest warrant pending in pot bust

Chemicals and 6 plants, 2 ounces of dried marijuana seized

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— Routt County Sheriff's Office deputies seized six marijuana plants, 62.8 grams (2.2 ounces) of dried marijuana and 10 samples of chemicals during a raid on a house east of Hayden on Thursday and Friday.

An arrest warrant is pending for Timothy Nelson, the owner of the property in the 14000 block of West U.S. Highway 40.

Investigator Mike Curzon said it is unclear whether Nelson has a permit for medical marijuana use. Because of that, deputies left six additional plants on the property.

"We would very much like to talk to the owner of the property," he said.

No one was at the home when the search warrant was served at about 8:30 p.m. Thursday, Curzon said. Deputies executed an extended search warrant Friday morning to sample the chemicals, and another search warrant will be executed soon. Nelson is the only person sought by deputies, but the investigation is ongoing.

Curzon said a deputy discovered the drugs after responding to an animal complaint and welfare check near the house.

The chemicals on the property were contained in glass jars and other containers, Curzon said. Sheriff's Office evidence supervisor Mellisa Baumgartner said hazardous materials teams identified seven as acids and three as neutrals or bases. The Sheriff's Office will send the chemical samples to a lab in Grand Junction for analysis.

Curzon said the marijuana found in the home was not packaged in a way that would indicate it was prepared for distribution.

- To reach Zach Fridell, call 871-4208 or e-mail zfridell@steamboatpilot.com

Comments

justice4all 4 years, 10 months ago

So, if there was indeed a medical mj license, the evidence is tainted. As to the jars of liquid, was it an illegal substance? If it is , will it be allowed as evidence since there is serious question about the legality of the warrant? Sure seems that the SO should have taken the proper steps to ascertain whether or not there was a proper license in place. If there was a license, does that mean there was an illegal entry--warrantless search-- and if so will the officers be charged with burglary?

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NchronicPain 4 years, 10 months ago

Good thing these people are in full body armor..... those plants could KILL you!!

Another thing, the local law enforcement needs to educate themselves about the way a medical marijuana grow is suppose to be labeled. In cases such as this, the medical card holder should have a photocopy of his/her liscence posted on the wall. If the grower is a caregiver for others, then he/she should have that denoted too. If this individual were to be, say, a caregiver for someone else in the home or nearby, that is also a mmj patient, than the grow may contain more than 6 plants legally. Leaving 6 plants behind does not always mean the cops have done things correctly. And whether a person is a patient or not should not be "unclear."

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1999 4 years, 10 months ago

oh good god....6 plants and 2 oz of weed???

waste of time.

meth is our big problem people.

KIDS ARE DOING METH IN HIGH SCHOOL~!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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sickofitall 4 years, 10 months ago

Maybe the license is more of a "prescription". I think Chronic could weigh in on that. Now, about these "Chemicals" , have they been analyzed? If it were for meth they would of stated that already. I mean technically speaking "Water" is a chemical. Saline solution is a "Chemical". Is the Pilot attempting to make this sound worse than it is by saying "Chemicals" ?

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jk 4 years, 10 months ago

Maybe it was fertilizer for growing the evil weed? Probably even labeled as such.

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beverly lemons 4 years, 10 months ago

So these guys can't find meth dealers to go after? They just wanted an excuse to put on their costumes and get their pictures in the news. How many of us could go for a walk, and within 15 minutes, come across someone selling a bad drug? My neighbors who smoke are fine, but their is one selling somethin funky out of his house. Now, if the Sheriff came around, would they go after the guy with a plant in his house, or the one with non stop traffic every evening? Meth dealers are laughing at this.

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knowmorethanu 4 years, 10 months ago

Did none of you read the article? In my opinion it is obvious that they think there might have been a meth lab in this house. The "chemicals" are being tested. They have to send those to the Colorado Bureau of Investigation for results. Do you really think they have the ability to test those materials in Routt County? Yes they look silly in the suits bagging some very small pot plants, but did you consider they were also handleing unknown chemicals? The pilot probably didn't thinks pictures of flasks of clear or brown (or whatever) liquid was as "sexy" as marijuana plants. NchronicPain - I agree with what you are saying, I don't know all of the regulations of Medical MJ but I do know that there are several police departments around the state that are being sued by people who had Med MJ licenses and their plants were seized and then the plants died in police custody. I know in one situation (I think longmont) where the license holder didn't show his license for over two weeks and he won the lawsuit.
Our departments are running on short staff and budgets. They look like they are trying to bust a meth lab and all you people can do is slam them. Maybe one of you should try walking up to a house that might have a meth lab in it and see how you would handle the situation. Or you could all just stay stoned and judgemental.

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gatorhunter 4 years, 10 months ago

No wonder there is a meth problem. These officers are wasting time and money harrassing some guy who is out of town on a rafting trip...who probably has a medical marijuana license. Its been a week and they still are still dangling these "mysterious clear liquids" in front of our faces. Obviously they know that the liquids have nothing to do with any sort of meth operation. They are most likely something as innocent as fertilizer , home brewed beer, or some kind of Chinese formula. I know lots of people in town who make fermented solutions out of beets and other veggies per recommendation by their acupuncturist or Chinese doctor. I hope that they find out that not only the plants but the liquids are some kind of medicine for this poor guy and that he can sue their pants off. Anyhow it will be interesting to watch how they keep changing their story about why they had any right to search his property in the first place. He is in for a shock when he gets off the river. Wow.

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sickofitall 4 years, 10 months ago

Knowmorethanu, sounds like a pretty judgemental screen.. I wouldnt walk up to a house that I thought had meth, Id first get a warrant, like this case then get back up, then go in. As an ex-chemist, there are only a few things you would need to test and timing could be critical for success. I am no stoner, thanks for calling everyone who replied "stoned". The fact of the matter is, the drug war is a failure and it continues to cost taxpayers money every year whilst creating a black market making the illegal substances very expensive and lucritive. This in turn creates a crime problem and the cicle never ends. I believe the "investigators" took proper precautions, but we still as of late have not found out what the "chemicals" were! It very well could have been dirty water, but the media is treating it as something special by calling the liquid a "chemical". We all have "chemicals" in our house. Bleach, soap, acetone , M.E.K, paint thinner, paint, car oil, windshield washer fluid, fertilizer, pool chemicals such as chlorine (bleach) or bromine, shampoo etc.. If I was this poor guy, Id be looking into another river trip.

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gatorhunter 4 years, 10 months ago

Certainly they know what the "chemicals" are by now and are probably too embarrassed to publish it. ... until they create some very CSI influenced story to justify their actions! On a lighter note.... that picture of the investigators with the teeny tiny pot plant in their costumes is priceless! Someone should send it to David Letterman or something:) Pretty much says it all about the war on drugs...

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sickofitall 4 years, 10 months ago

Hey Gator Hunter, the masks and that teeny plant pretty much sum it up hey? lol

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freerider 4 years, 10 months ago

That photo is hilarious ....I'm freking busting a gut looking at this...you would think they are handling toxic waste from a nuke plant...or maybe swine flu , or maybe they though they would freak out and start singing Elvis tunes or something really bad like maybe Bob Marley songs...Reefer madness for sure ...good thing the U.S.A. is safe from the evil mother nature ....wow !! call the president ....6 plants and 2 ounces ...I'll sleep better tonight for sure knowing America is safe from 6 evil plants in Hayden

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jk 4 years, 10 months ago

knowmore, for petes sake they are in the sheriff's office baging stuff that has already been transported. Maybe if they didn't waste money on disposable haz mat suits to bag marijuana plants for evidence their budgets wouldn't be so tight.

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trump_suit 4 years, 10 months ago

They do look silly in their little white suits. I wonder how much that one little plant weighs that it needs two of them to bag it?

At least this case appears to be investigative in nature, and not handed to them by the landlord, or drunk teenagers puking in the street.

You would think that one of their first calls when this kind of investigation gets started is to determine whether or not there are MJ permits. It seems to me that this information would be one of the basic things needed to determine the proper course of action..

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Duke_bets 4 years, 10 months ago

Every post could lead to the support of drug use. Nice job idiots! They actually wear the funny little suits because it's in their job description. Maybe all of you should put out the joint and get a job. I guess it's fairly difficult to get a job if you can't pass a drug test.

Nchron - You need to stop supporting drug use. It's not near as cool as you think. And, the medical marijuana you support is a waste of time. We proved that already.

baddove - You most likely busted your neighbors with that post. Good job!

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NchronicPain 4 years, 10 months ago

Ah Mr Dukey trys to light up the comment section again with judegments and ridiculous viewpoints.... "Nchron - You need to stop supporting drug use. It's not near as cool as you think. And, the medical marijuana you support is a waste of time. We proved that already." ....where and when did you prove this?? I saw most people with sense supporting me, and I still do. People like you who command people to follow your way are idiots and do you really think I will stop using my medicine because you want me too?? HHAHAHHAAA I have a job that drugs tests. I great one. I am the manager, so cram it.

trump_suit says, "You would think that one of their first calls when this kind of investigation gets started is to determine whether or not there are MJ permits. It seems to me that this information would be one of the basic things needed to determine the proper course of action.." ........we would think so wouldn't we? But, no way!!! That would be too logical your our local law enforcement officials. Rookies.

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NchronicPain 4 years, 10 months ago

sickofitall says.... "Maybe the license is more of a "prescription". I think Chronic could weigh in on that."

Actually the way the law states it, it is not a prescription....it's a recommendation. Your Dr. can recommend that you use it for your condition. The AMA and APA have approved Cannabis for medical purposes only when vaporized or injested. "Smoking" Cannabis is not approved medicine. Smoking anything is not approved medicine. The Carcinogens are only created with the fire used to light it. When it is not burned, it is completely harmless and has no side-effects. You tell me which is safer, Cannabis or some pill on a TV commercial with a 5min disclaimer listing it's side-effects (which include DEATH most of the time).

sensiblecolorado.org.

AMERICANS FOR SAFE ACCESS

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aichempty 4 years, 10 months ago

No side effects?

Isn't feeling "high" a side effect?

Aren't the psychogenic effects a "side effect?"

Is it safe to drive after using the stuff?

"No side effects" means that you would never feel anything from using it except an absence of pain or whatever condition you took it to cure.

Water taken in reasonable amounts has no side effects, except eventually needing to urinate. Too much water is toxic. Too much oxygen is toxic.

Everything has side effects, and marijuana is no different. In fact, the side effects are the only reason to use the stuff. Broccoli doesn't make me feel high or relieve pain. Neither does lettuce, brussels sprouts, green beans, corn, peas carrots or tomatoes.

You need to be honest with yourself first, and then with everybody else, about the benefits and negatives of marijuana use. Are you sure it doesn't also make you just a little bit stupid? That's okay if you're getting a genuine medical benefit that nothing else provides, but be honest about it with us, and you'll get more sympathy.

The cops would probably have no reason to be suspicious of medical marijuana users if they weren't getting tips from people who have been stopped and found to be in possession of stuff obtained from so-called "licensees." The tempation to share seems to be far too great for people to resist.

When a person who is on probation is found to be in possession of drugs, they can easily be put into the position of squealing on the source (and it had better be truthful) to save going back to real jail. If medical users are giving the stuff to others who are not licensed, or selling it, then they shouldn't be surprised when the cops come snooping around. Maybe the cops have figured out that the license is a cover for distribution in some cases, and they're acting on documented trends.

I would bet that a lot of information has come out of the recent cases, and that the cops are justified in suspecting that a lot of pot being smoked by kids is coming from some Mom or Dad's medicinal stores. Even if Mom and Dad are on the up-and-up, can they be sure their kids are not skimming some for personal use or to make a few bucks? Couldn't happen, right? Not with today's teenagers, right . . . . ?

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Kristopher Hammond 4 years, 10 months ago

"The cops would probably have no reason to be suspicious of medical marijuana users if they weren't getting tips from people who have been stopped and found to be in possession of stuff obtained from so-called "licensees.""

In which case has a busted person/probationer claimed to have gotten the MJ from a licensee? None that you can cite, right? Your theory is just as valid as the invented facts on which it relies. You claim that marijuana makes you "just a LITTLE bit stupid". What dangerous substance accounts for YOUR rants?

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NchronicPain 4 years, 10 months ago

Ok, Aich-a-licious, I'm not gona get back on the roller-coaster with you...... I will rephrase myself you can get your panties out of bunch, mmmmkay......

Medical Marijuana has no UNWANTED side-effects. period.

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playa46 4 years, 10 months ago

Aich- Sorry, you can't compare Marijuana to vegetables... Why do you keep coming up with these outrageous arguments?

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trump_suit 4 years, 10 months ago

Actually, I envy Aich's ability to live within his/her black and white world. I am sure we would all be much better off if we would just turn off our brains and do exactly what our Government told us was right while avoiding anything our leaders determine is wrong.

After all, they are in charge, how can anything said by our leaders be wrong? I cannot remember a single instance where a Gov't pronouncement was later found to be incorrect. Can you?

If we follow this train of logic, the police should arrest every attendee of the 1773 group for insubordination because they are actively disagreeing with our leaders. (Yes, a shameless tie to another article.)

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aichempty 4 years, 10 months ago

Well, fellas, I'll just say that I've dealt with a lot of people who were in the justice system for alcohol and marijuana infractions.

The folks who got in a jam over alcohol were always able to take responsibility and regret their actions. Getting caught driving under the influence is a pretty good wake-up call for most people. Now, I admit that I never dealt with the hard-core alkies who repeatedly drank and drove, but the average guy who let alcohol get ahead of his common sense learned from the experience and didn't do it over and over.

The marijuana users always blamed the cops for catching them. Well, duh, speeding after smoking pot is just the same as speeding after drinking alcohol, isn't it? One of the effects of pot seems to be that people deny it's a problem, and can't wait to get out and do it again. Getting caught was just bad luck. The "law" was the problem, not the fact that they were breaking the law while under the influence of marijuana.

Can't you see that it's the influence of marijuana that makes you deny its influence?

If people were content to use marijuana in their homes, grow small amounts for their own use, and not haul the stuff around in their cars (no different from an open alcohol container) it wouldn't be a problem. The cops wouldn't bother with it.

I can tell you without a doubt that every person I ever assisted after an arrest for possession of marijuana following a traffic stop would not have been in jail in the first place if they had fastened their seat belts, driven within the speed limit and stayed in their own lane.

Read "The Record." It's all the proof I need.

I know you don't see it, and that's proof of my point that marijuana makes you a little bit stupid. The other possibility is that you have to be a little bit stupid to use the stuff knowing the consequences.

Alcohol impairs judgment. So does pot. The proof in both cases is getting caught with the stuff in a way that gets you in trouble with the cops. No reasonable person would do something that can land them in jail just by having it in the car, right?

And the case at hand is a result of a "tip" to the cops. Why would anybody rat on a friend who was supplying pot to them if it wasn't to avoid consequences in the justice system? Think about it. Choose your friends wisely. I'd avoid pot smokers . . . .

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aichempty 4 years, 10 months ago

Scott,

I excluded the hard-core alkies and repeat offenders. Maybe if you had spent time sitting across from somebody who wants out of jail to go to work on Monday morning you might have heard a different story. A notable example is the guy who was coming down from the Lake and stopped behind his wife, who had been stopped for speeding just a minute earlier. Both of them popped for DUI on the breathalyzer. How about the guy who strayed over the line in Craig, two blocks from the place he was going, being arrested for the very first time at age 63 and having his bond guaranteed by his 84 year-old mother? These are the people I'm talking about. They weren't about to spend $20,000 on a lawyer when they didn't have cash for a $750 bond.

The repeat offenders always had excuses, and it was always the cops' fault. Heck, in some cases, the cops sat outside waiting for them to leave the bar and get in their cars. I say BRAVO to the cops.

Trump,

I wasn't talking to you.

I don't disagree with anything you have to write about this subject.

I am merely stating the fact that I have observed a lot of people who were arrested for possession of small amounts of marijuana following traffic stops. You have to stop and ask yourself why you should loan money to someone to get out of jail when they don't take responsibility for their own actions. Another frequent observation with pot arrests is that the person doesn't want to have their mother, father, brothers and sisters, etc., contacted to guarantee their bail. This is usually because the relatives have already been down that path and said, "don't call me again." If a person's parents and siblings were unwilling to lend them money for bail, I didn't lend it either.

This is not about whether it's right or wrong, or should be legalized. It's about personal responsibility. When a person devotes time and effort to obtaining an intoxicating substance to the exclusion of useful and productive activities, that's one of the signs of substance dependency and addiction. It's the same with alcohol, vicodin, percoset, co-tylenol or any other narcotic substance. People who can't see that are in denial and need to take a good look at their lives.

Alcohol and narcotics get in the way of personal relationships, family ties, jobs, personal productivity and civic responsibility. There's nothing we do that relates to other people which is helped by dependence on drugs or alcohol. If you're running to the bottle or the bong for comfort, something important is missing. You don't fill the void by staying high. It's just a way to give up on life and not miss it until you finally die. Isn't that just a little bit stupid?

If smoking pot is so good, and so much fun, and so productive, then why aren't people just doing it and keeping quiet to stay out of trouble? Why so much effort trying to make a point?

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Scott Wedel 4 years, 10 months ago

You are delusional if you think people pulled over for drunk driving take responsibility and do not blame the police for pulling them over.

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trump_suit 4 years, 10 months ago

Aich, all it takes is a quick review of the "Cargo" calls and subsequent events to dispute your entire 43 line post.

I have never encouraged the use or abuse of illegal drugs in my posts. What I have consistently argued is that our country is fighting the very different problems of drug use and abuse in the wrong way. This country is losing the "war on drugs" because we are not fighting the right problem.

Voluntary treatment and education will work better in the long run than crime and punishment. Prohibition did not work for booze and it has not worked for drugs (any of them). MADD has been quite effective at reducing occurances of DUI while the root cause (booze) is still legal.

The dangers of drug use and abuse have been well documented. It does not necessarily follow that we should be throwing people in jail for making the decision to use them. Likewise, just because there are dangers (see morpheine addiction) it does not mean that there is no medicinal value.

Ignoring some of the facts while emphasizing others is a good way to to make bad decisions and end up in a ill-thought out war (ie. Iraq, or the war on drugs").

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playa46 4 years, 10 months ago

Aich- Now you have gone to comparing Alcohol to Pot. Here's the thing, of course we have people becoming impaired because of Marijuana. So then why is it okay to drink? I don't hear you talking about drinking and driving, which kills more than Marijuana does.

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sickofitall 4 years, 10 months ago

Aich must be a copper, so we have a show of power here? geez, secure your job is what your up to!

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Scott Wedel 4 years, 10 months ago

Okay, I accept the idea that there are people that accidentally drink too much that get pulled over for DUI and are apologetic. They presumably are honestly surprised that they had broken the law (and there is the breath analyzer showing that they were above the legal limit).

But anyone sane would instantly recognize that pot smokers that drive are more like the regular drinkers that drive that also blame the police when pulled over because neither can claim they thought they were acting completely legally.

You said "If people were content to use marijuana in their homes, grow small amounts for their own use, and not haul the stuff around in their cars (no different from an open alcohol container) it wouldn't be a problem. The cops wouldn't bother with it."

Which is obviously wrong because that characterization would appear to be this case. A few plants seen growing in someone's house and no indication of intent to sell.

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sickofitall 4 years, 10 months ago

Hey, if we really, really want to talk safety, lets compare both to talking on cell phones.. I see cops talking on cells all the time!!

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aichempty 4 years, 10 months ago

Scott,

Alcohol impairs judgment. Lots of people find out they made a bad choice when they get stopped for speeding or some other minor infraction, and that's usually also related to the alcohol. 47 in a 35 zone is enough to result in a DWI. Most people who get caught this way weren't even watching their speed and just happen to drive through a radar trap. That's the insidious nature of intoxicants. They impair your ability to think and you don't even know it until it's too late.

I think the case here was probably one where a neighbor "got the cops out there" for some other reason and maybe gave a tip in person that they didn't want to talk about on the phone. And, again, was an animal being neglected because the owner was using drugs?

We shouldn't be surprised to find out that people who choose to break the law in such an obvious manner might also tend to let other responsibilities slide. This is the part that pot smokers don't see about themselves that comes right out to other people.

Playa,

Alcohol is legal unless you're driving or in possession of a firearm. Pot isn't legal anywhere. It's just not prosecuted if the person in possession holds a valid license issued by their home state. Whether either one of these substances has merit or should be legalized is not the point. Abusers suffer from abuse whether they know it or not. It's the subtance which makes them deny the truth about their own affliction. It's the same with food or booze or any other dependency, and you don't have to look very far to find examples of it all over the place. It just turns out that being fat, or cutting yourself, or having obsessive-compulsive disorder are not against the law. The psychology is all the same.

Sicky,

There are other reasons to visit people in jail. Sometimes wealthy families are burdened with a black sheep who continues to need raisin' after reaching adulthood. These are the lucky ones that get help, whereas the folks without family money end up on the street or in jail.

E-mail or a fax and a credit card number from a distant caring relative can do wonders for people who end up in a jam. We just don't see stories about it in the papers because there's nothing noteworthy going on. Wealthy families have resources available to them that the rest of us will never even think about, and being able to reach out with money to solve a problem in a far-away place is one of them.

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sickofitall 4 years, 10 months ago

Look, this is a goofy article, the point is how frickin silly the cops look!! Back to the issues!!

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NchronicPain 4 years, 10 months ago

Look, this is a goofy article, the point is how frickin silly the cops look!!

Amen!!

S.A.F.E.R.

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aichempty 4 years, 10 months ago

Okay, now it can be told.

The "cops" are both Harper Louden in a tyvek suit. Check out the eyebrows, eyelashes and comely female features trying desperately to get out of that silly suit.

This scene was photoshopped to put her in the picture twice. It's a pretty good job.

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playa46 4 years, 10 months ago

"Alcohol is legal unless you're driving or in possession of a firearm. Pot isn't legal anywhere. It's just not prosecuted if the person in possession holds a valid license issued by their home state. Whether either one of these substances has merit or should be legalized is not the point. Abusers suffer from abuse whether they know it or not. It's the subtance which makes them deny the truth about their own affliction. It's the same with food or booze or any other dependency, and you don't have to look very far to find examples of it all over the place. It just turns out that being fat, or cutting yourself, or having obsessive-compulsive disorder are not against the law. The psychology is all the same."

And yet, you disregarded my last statement, that alcohol kills more people than pot, and yet you want to keep pot illegal. Instead, you gave me a response saying why you can get pulled over while drinking, is if we didn't know that! Thanks Aich, you truly are an inspiration to pot loving teens everywhere!

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nurmidst 4 years, 10 months ago

the real point here should be that while the court house was closed this day for lack of funds these clowns are out there spending 10's of thousands of dollars busting sombody for 6 very tiny plants!!!

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aichempty 4 years, 10 months ago

playa,

I have never said that alcohol should remain legal. It ought to be outlawed for everybody under 25 for their own good.

You keep making the point that pot is not as bad as alcohol, or whatever, but the truth is that people who seek out intoxication as a form of recreation often end up suffering from it.

Your argument that alcohol kills more people than pot, so pot should be legalized, is ridiculous. The logical solution is to outlaw alcohol, increase penalties for using it, and get people who use intoxicants off the road, period. Raising the drinking age to 25 would be a great start, and it would help prevent younger kids from getting the stuff.

I assume that we cannot stop people from using pot. We can make it more difficult to obtain alcohol, and should. Certainly, any degree of intoxication whether driving or not should be unlawful if our aim is to prevent harm to people.

How about requiring a driver's license check to buy booze, and restricting the number of available "doses" to 30 per month. Basically, ration the stuff and restrict it to people 26 and over, and add a tax of $1 per ounce of alcohol to every container ($1 per beer, for example).

The goal of all this is to deter people from self-destructive behavior. It's the same with cigarettes, which are now taxed heavily to deter smoking.

So, the answer is not to legalize pot. It's to discourage the use of booze and other harmful substances because of their negative impact on society.

I was also young and stupid once. Thank God I never hurt anybody. Yeah, I snuck around and drank alcohol before I was old enough to buy it legally (and by that I mean when I was 18 I would travel to a neighboring state to buy booze legally and then haul it back to where the minimum age was 21).

There's a lot of crap I would love to go back and tell myself how to do better. Waking up hung over and sick was dumb. I survived to a point where I can drink one beer or one cocktail and stop, or just not drink at all.

If I could be 18 again, I'd study harder, get into great physical shape, find a mentally stabile mate from a good family (no nutsos, freaks, abuse survivors, etc.) and enjoy every day on Earth to its fullest. None of those things require pot, alcohol or any other intoxicant. The only thing pot is doing for you (or alcohol) is preventing you from finding the shortest path to the best life you can have.

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Scott Wedel 4 years, 10 months ago

I'm sorry about the last post - wrong story. Never mind.

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Scott Wedel 4 years, 10 months ago

The fundamental challenge is that Oak Creek is too small to pay for a competent police department. The amount asked by the Sheriff's dept is nearly the entire general fund. The annual police budget with the grant will be larger than the general fund.

If the plan is to use the grant money to build a police dept and then ask for a tax increase to pay for it then they will be asking for a doubling or tripling of the OC property tax.

OC is in a tough situation because there is no big retail center bringing in lots of sales tax and the population is too small. Trustee Josh Vorrhis at the last board meeting said that a viable town in Colorado needs to have a population of at least 1,200 to 1,500. Without a strong retail center and not being a wealthy enclave, the viability number is going to be the upper end of the range. So Oak Creek needs to grow 50% to become a viable town. But the County has made Stagecoach a growth area that does not have to pay town taxes or get town approvals and so virtually all of the South Routt growth happened in Stagecoach and not in the towns.

If Oak Creek gets the grant then it will have one officer per 225 residents. Rich Steamboat with tons of sales tax revenue has one officer per 400 residents and since there are often thousands of tourists there, the ratio is typically one officer per 550 occupants of SB.

The only reason the Town of Yampa works is because they are allowed to pay $7,000 a year for police services.

If Oak Creek tries to provide a full time police force then it will continue it's slow decay which will eventually force disncorporation. There were 5 days in a row in which wind blowing dust from the streets resulted in zero visibility conditions.

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NchronicPain 4 years, 10 months ago

Aich-o-idiot says, "If I could be 18 again, I'd study harder, get into great physical shape, find a mentally stabile mate from a good family (no nutsos, freaks, abuse survivors, etc.) and enjoy every day on Earth to its fullest. None of those things require pot, alcohol or any other intoxicant. The only thing pot is doing for you (or alcohol) is preventing you from finding the shortest path to the best life you can have."

This is the most self-centered, judgemental, and moronic statement you have said yet, Aich. It seems to me that you sit in your house, wishing you would've lived an entirely different life. I am sorry for you. Being such a narrow-minded adult, with such rash and ridiculous views gives you no creditibility in the comment sections of this newspaper ever again. Are you so closed off that you don't see your insanely rude stance in life as offensive? Please, I hope you wake up some day. Or just go away and shut up please.

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trump_suit 4 years, 10 months ago

Playa, the problem of teenage drug use is a real one, and Aich hits the nail on the head when describing the effects on young adults. Whether you like it or not, the youth of our country should not be intoxicated on anything. Study after study proves that drug and alchohol use/abuse in your teens will dramatically increase your chances of having a substance related problem later in life. You should get off the dope and get on with your education. If you are getting B's now, you will probably get A's, if if you are getting A's on dope then imagine how smart you could be sober and straight. Marajuana is simply not a good way to make a success of yourself. Other drugs are worse including alchohol, but that does not make MJ safe.

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trump_suit 4 years, 10 months ago

Aich, I am sorry that you cannot learn the lessons of history. Prohibition shows us that the government is not cabable of legislating morality and furthermore that it should not try. Making alchohol illegal is a serious move in the wrong direction. We are filling our jails and criminal system with minor drug offenses and people that do not belong there.

A much better approach would be to stop trying to make these substances illegal or unavailable, and direct our efforts to educating our youth to their dangers, and to creating treatment progams that would allow those users who get in trouble to find a way back to society.

Spending our tax dollars on the drug war is ridiculous. Insanity is described as doing the same thing over and over while expecting different results. It is clear that our "War on Drugs" has not stopped anyone, or made even a small dent in the supply of these substances.

What you need to try and remember here from your own youth is this: We all try and do things in our younger wilder years that most of us come to recognize as mistakes. There is no perfection here, we all do something dumb before we are 25. Most people come thru this stage regardless of what substance that they happened to use with a drug free responsible attitude. Some remain responsible users for life, and I include a alchohol in this statement.

A small number of people (when measured as a percentage of polulation) begin a downhill spiral that you seem very familiar with. It is those people that we should try to help instead of locking them up. And, no help cannot/should not be forced upon them. If they make the choice to go down that slope there is not much that can be done.

The problem is that the conservative right has decided that we absolutely must eliminate this behavior by making the substances illegal or unavailable. This approach is clearly not working, and should be changed. It remains my opinion that the drugs in and of themselves are not the major problem to society, it is the "War on Drugs" that is causing the violence and profits.

Will there be problems with this approach? Absolutely, on a individual level substance abuse can be devestating. But the overall costs to our society in both economic and human terms would be much easier to bear.

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trump_suit 4 years, 10 months ago

NChronic, While I respect your opinions about medical marajuana and it's benefits, I do not think that attacking people that disagree with you is a good way to make your argument.

It is obvious that you disagree with Aich, but that does not mean that Aich is a worthless human being whose opinion no longer counts. It is this approach that polarizes our country and creates the devisiveness that leads to things like the Tiller murder. We should be able to disagree about serious issues without resorting to personal attacks.

Just my opinion :)

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NchronicPain 4 years, 10 months ago

Trumper.... We are all adults here, I hope. What I said was far from a personal attack. All Aich does is attack generalized groups of people and I'm sick of it. Now Aich called "surivors of abuse" "mentally unstable." Thats offensive to more than just me. I could care less about Aich's view on marijuana and the people this idiot thinks use it, but when Aich start ranting and throwing out it's viewpoints, I get disgusted. I stand by everything I said, I think Aich and all it's little thoughts can take it. Do you think all the stuff you just ranted off sunk in to ole Aich-o-moron?? wrong.

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NchronicPain 4 years, 10 months ago

oh ya!.... I meant to say that I agree with everything you just said prior to telling me not to attack lil ole Aich.... Very well said. I just don't think Aich is bright enough to see the big picture like you..... I'm sure Aich is holed up in some ranch in S. Routt with a bunch of guns, a McCain/Palin sticker on it's duelley, sippin' Southern Comfort, clutching all it's cash tightly because, you know, the world is going to H E L L in a handbasket......

trump, I'm just sick of Aich's nonsense.

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aichempty 4 years, 10 months ago

trump,

I am fully aware that nothing except one's own sense of worth and self-respect can prevent substance abuse.

But the rest of us can make it harder to do.

Gardasil is a vaccine that helps prevent cervical cancer in young women. Abstinance works even better. The birth control pill made sex without consequences attainable, and then allowed promiscuity to become a national sport, leading to the explosion in STDs, AIDS and cervical cancer. Woohoo! HOORAY for sexual freedom.

Chronie and Playa just don't see that free access to pot and other intoxicants can have consequences far beyond the simple act of smoking a joint.

Chronie seems to go over that little line that says, "If pot helps as a medicine, we should allow it," to, "Hey everybody! Pot is good for everyone, whether you're sick or not!" Unfortunately, that's just not true.

Chronie's attack is just an affirmation that pot is a transcending issue which consumes the time and resources of millions of Americans.

We are very lucky up here in Routt County to avoid most of the violence and poverty which result from drug abuse in other places. Anyone who can visit small towns in the south, see kids under the influence of pot and who-knows-what, where the dropout rate is 40% year after year, and not know that drug use down through the generations is a part of the problem is a cruel, racist narcissist who doesn't care about the plight of others.

If you don't think that keeping people in virtual slavery through substance abuse effects all of us, then consider what happens when people working in the peanut butter plant are sneaking out for a joint during their break and not caring about the salmonella they're tracking back into the facility from the bird droppings outside.

Ever been in a Hardees or Burger King and seen roaches run across the sign where the prices are posted? How about a Subway where it takes 20 minutes to get your order and you're the only one in line? That's what marijuana is doing for the people that Dr. King died to free from oppression.

Human rights are at the center of the drug problem. Locking users up doesn't work, but neither does ignoring the problem.

Making pot legal for white ski bums in Colorado might be all fine and dandy, but it's not doing anything for the black kids in Mississippi and Alabama who will never be anything more than a burden on society.

So what do we do? Kiss off 40% of 20% of the population because people want to smoke pot? I don't think that's the answer.

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beverly lemons 4 years, 10 months ago

Aich you are such a white man. You are the burden to society, with your bigoted ideas. You would keep women perpetually pregnant, throw pot smoking kids in prison, and send black Americans back to the plantations. All for your own personal happiness, your mantra of purpose. Mr., you should be deeply, deeply ashamed of yourself.

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aichempty 4 years, 10 months ago

baddove,

You are dead wrong, friend.

I own a second home where I see this stuff every time I visit. It happens, it's true, and it's as wrong as slavery ever was. One of the local high schools just celebrated because their graduation rate went up to 62%. It was the best in a city of over 100,000 with 4 or 5 high schools in the district.

The bad stuff doesn't happen to every kid. It just happens to way too many of them. All the opportunities are there, and thank God so many people have taken advantage of them, but too many have not.

If you think drugs are not the problem, you need to get out and clue the rest of us in on what it is. Even if marijuana was not hurting anybody, it sure isn't helping them in terms of education and economic security (including health care and retirement programs) where people obtain a decent life and standard of living.

A bunch of people have moved up here to get away from crime and poverty. The problem is that they want to still have recreational drugs -- so how do we reconcile the two sets of needs? Easy. Forget about the people who suffer and live in a place where you don't have to see them.

Racism is the elephant in the room in Steamboat Springs. It goes on in the schools and in the bars. We read about it in the Pilot.

We live in a place where people care more about pot and pine trees than about other people suffering in our own country. Bicyclists around here want roads built just for them while people in other places can be found literally crawling in the streets, drunk and drugged out of their minds.

So tell me, please, what is the method we're going to use to "treat" 40% of the kids who leave school with drug problems and no job prospects?

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TWill 4 years, 10 months ago

Well said Aich. Your rants have grown on me over time. Although I think you are a little idealistic (and off your rocker to some degree) you certainly do tell it like it is.

You have no need to be ashamed of yourself as others may suggest.

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aichempty 4 years, 10 months ago

Wilter,

I'm not idealistic. I'm pragmatic.

I know people are going to make stupid choices and pay the consequences, and society will bear the burden for a lot of them.

If legalizing pot would deter kids from using drugs, then putting them into hotel rooms stocked with booze and rubbers would discourage them from having sex, too.

All these people who support legalization never seem to be able to cover the nasty little issues like the ones I wrote about above. What DO you do about the people who cannot control their own behavior and will do drugs and nothing else if given the choice? Give them the choice and hope for the best? If they can't choose wisely now when pot is illegal, then why should anybody expect them to choose sobriety when they have nothing to lose by abusing drugs?

I made a wrong turn one night near my other home and ended up in a neighborhood of working-class homes. There was a man on his hands and knees, in the middle of the road, obviously drunk or drugged.

So, should I have called the cops? And get him hauled in, and arrested, and have to pay bail?

So, should I have driven away and hoped the next person driving down that street didn't hit him?

So, should I have tried to get out and help him?

What I did was dim my lights, backed away about 50 feet, and gave him time to get up and stagger out of the road. Did I do the right thing? Well, I didn't hear about anybody dying that night, so I guess I did the right thing.

What was the right thing to do?

The answer depends on what happened next, doesn't it?

It's not what people "think" will happen if all drugs were legalized overnight. It's what really will happen, and nobody can predict because nobody knows. The current state of affairs might be the best it can get.

What would happen in Steamboat? Probably not much. Everybody who wants drugs has them anyway.

But what about everywhere else in the cities?

The truth is, we just don't know. The genteel folk who browse the internet and post comments on forums have no idea what kind of low-life exists in the broader population. Cops know. That's why cops love working in Steamboat, away from most of the low-life. I've had enough contact to know that college kids and ski bums are a different species from the folks you find on the streets, and believe me, you don't want them playing in your sand box. You don't want them to have all the drugs they can get their hands on without the cops around to keep peace. Drugs are a reason to get rif-raff off the street and into a place where you can supervise them. Ted Bundy was never caught kidnapping or killing anybody; every time he was captured, it was during a traffic stop.

Gangs won't stop committing crimes if drugs are legalized. They'll just rob people for money instead. Wake up to the facts, because it could be worse.

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trump_suit 4 years, 10 months ago

I would contend that those people exist right now and we are not doing anything to help them. Legalization would not make that problem any worse than it already is and would have the additional effect of making more $$$$ available for support/treatment programs.

I simply do not agree with the scare tactics that say the abuse problem would be so much worse. The abusers are already with us. Most individuals choose responsible behavior no matter what substance is paraded in front of them. It is my contention that the overall costs to our society would be lower and that the problem of drug abuse would remain relatively constant.

Again, there is a very large difference between the use and abuse of any substance. Please do not counter that any drug use is abuse. Experience with alchohol largely disproves that theory.

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TWill 4 years, 10 months ago

Trump- I agree with you that the costs to our society would be lessened with legalization. We could prevent the small time users and dealers from being processed through the legal system and turning into true criminals along the way.

But Aich is also right in that there is a significant portion of our population living a tough street life that might as well be on another planet from Routt County its so different. You are not going to be able to treat an entire cultural way of life with treatment and support programs. Gangs and criminals will not simply be put out of business and go away. (btw- that scenario with the guy in the street also serves as a very nice set up to get carjacked, robbed or otherwise- there are no is no right thing to do in that case)

I guess there's a reason why this topic has been debated for so long... there are valid arguments to each side. But ulimately, I'd be suprised if anything ever changes. Its quite a stretch to comprehend how legalization would somehow improve our nation as a whole.

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aichempty 4 years, 10 months ago

Trump,

You wrote, "Most individuals choose responsible behavior no matter what substance is paraded in front of them. It is my contention that the overall costs to our society would be lower and that the problem of drug abuse would remain relatively constant."

In reality, most individuals YOU SEE choose responsible behavior. The ones who go into free fall and disappear into the cesspools of lawlessness, life on the streets, prostitution and petty crime to support drug habits did NOT make the responsible choices.

During the Vietnam War, aircraft survivability engineers plotted the location of bullet and shrapnel holes from returning aircraft onto blueprints of those aircraft. Over time, patterns of battle damage holes revealed areas where there was no damage discovered on returning aircraft. Did this mean that airplanes did not get hit in those spots?

NO!

It meant that airplanes hit in those spots did NOT RETURN to base.

The thing we don't see in the stats and numbers and recovery programs and responsible users is the number of people who drop out of society altogether and never show up again. Nobody keeps statistics on them.

In some of my work in Routt and Moffat counties years ago, I ran across people who didn't show up anywhere until they landed in jail. No bank account. No job. A drivers license was the only record of their existence, and those were often expired or revoked. No credit card. Maybe someone in the family would be on Medicaid or food stamps, but those records were not shared with law-enforcement agencies.

There is a total underground economy of people who deal in drugs, crime, cash and off-the-books pay for labor. They pay no taxes. They may not even have a social security number. And these are people born in this country to legal residents who have lived the same way for decades. I ran across one guy who worked off the books for a landscape business while in the process of trying to get workmens comp from a reputable local business for a back injury. He lived with a roomate and paid cash for his share of the rent. I actually saw him mowing my neighbor's lawn with a gas push mower during the time he was supposedly "disabled." This kind of crap is a way of life for a lot of low-life people who only want to survive and live their own idea of the American dream. They are never discovered until they get in a jam with the police. Keeping your vehicle tags and license valid are the only contact required with the government once you decide to work off the books and live on cash.

So, the point is that we don't have records on the people who are not responsible substance abusers, and just because us middle class people don't see them doesn't mean they don't exist.

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trump_suit 4 years, 10 months ago

Aich, You make my point for me. We have all of the problems that you are so scared of right now.

Do you really think it would become that much worse? Sounds to me like worse is already here and it is time to try something different instead of the same ol' thing.

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aichempty 4 years, 10 months ago

trump,

You may be right.

I'm not "scared" of the problems. I'm aware of them and act accordingly.

There was a time in Germany when the Nazis had a very efficient means of dealing with drug abusers and criminals of all sorts. Our problem in this country is that we worry more about the civil rights of criminals than we do about the damage they cause to innocent citizens.

I'm afraid I cannot agree that personal responsibility is the answer to the drug abuse problem. Personal accountability with realistic and certain penalties for infractions might be an effective deterrent to crime if drugs were legalized, but I still never knew anybody whose only problem was drug abuse. That's referring to people who had a drug problem, not to everybody who used drugs. I readily admit that some people can use drugs without a problem, but when there is a problem, it's rarely simple to solve.

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Scott Wedel 4 years, 10 months ago

It wasn't that long ago that gambling was considered a vice and was only allowed in Nevada and there were not even lotteries. Then government fell in love with the revenues and gambling is in virtually every state.

I wouldn't be overly surprised that pot is legalized to get taxes and fees with the promise that some of the money is spent on treatment centers.

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freerider 4 years, 10 months ago

Aich , Marajuana isn't a drug , it's a plant , more like an herb. you seem to think you know it all . Have you ever read the marajuana tax act of 1937 ?? pot was made illegal to protect corporate profits. You also seem like you live in fear , so your probably a republican that loves fear mongering. If you really care about drugs and there effect on Americans then you should start ranting about BIG PHARMA . Each year company's like Merck and Eli Lilly kill tens of thousands of Americans from prescription drugs...legal drugs sold by your doctor..deaths from marajuana in the history of the world= 0 The drug trade supports a lot of really bad people . It should be treated as a medical issue not criminal . Listen here's the thing if you or anybody in your family has a drug or alcohol problem then doesn't help make sense instead of jail..?? legalization would just take the money out of the game ...billions and billions of dollars ....treatment centers make more sense than jail and it's a lot more empathetic...you to want to take a Fascist approach to drug problem's .... that just starts creating more problems

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aichempty 4 years, 10 months ago

Freebie,

Treatment certainly makes more sense.

Take them to jail, give them a shot, and henceforth they hurl their guts out if they use marijuana. Sounds like a cure to me!

Except there's no shot. People use it to get through their miserable days because they have no hope and see no path to something better.

If people only used intoxicants for medicinal reasons and to reduce pain and suffering, there would be no problem. The problem is that the intoxicants make people willing to go to jail or even to die to get them. That's not rational behavior.

You can accuse me of anything you want. The fact is that a reasonable person would have forced the Titanic to take enough life boats along to save everyone. We know how that turned out.

You either don't see, or don't care about the sad, sick, lonely and hopeless people who get pulled down in the process of staying high. Nobody ever died of marijuana? Maybe not from THC, but but the side effects, oh yeah, millions have probably died from it. Just like alcohol. Pi$$ing your life away until you become suicidal or violent is just as bad as any other way to die.

Legalizing pot would not take money out of the crime game. It would only cause the criminals to move on to something else. There's a demand for money without a day job and even if we allowed people to have any drug they want at will, it won't stop some other kind of violence to obtain money.

People willingly come forward with cash to buy drugs. I don't know what the criminals and gangs would do to replace that cash flow, but I don't think giving up crime and applying at McDonald's is going to be the result we would see.

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trump_suit 4 years, 10 months ago

Playa,

You are correct. I made an assumption based on some of your postings that was incorrect and I apologize.

My basic point about teenage drug use stands. One of the reasons I wrote it so strongly is so that people will not assume I approve of drug use just because I argue for legalization.

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trump_suit 4 years, 10 months ago

Aich, If I read you correctly, you beleive that individual responsibility will not work in this case, and that our Big Brother Government should force us all to act appropriately. How do you reconcile that belief with your conservative fiscal policies that espouse exactly the same ideology?

I completely fail to understand how you can say that legalization will not take the money out of the drug trade. In our history we have a perfect example of how that will happen. I keep referring to it, but it never seems to take root with you. Here is is again....................................

During the period of prohibibition in this country we experienced large scale problems (See Al Capone) with Gangs, Guns and Violence. When prohibition ended, the money available to the gangs dried up, the guns became less accessible (Ie, no money) and the Government was able to get the gang violence under control. If you watch any historical documentaries of that period, you will see a very similar mindset in the Law Enforcement Officials.

I fail to understand how you think the drug problem is different. Same problem, same results, different substance. You need to quit looking at the effects on individuals, and start looking at the deteriorating conditions of our urban areas. Our society as a whole is paying a huge price for a "War on Drugs" that is not working.

Your crime and punishment approach assumes that morality can be legislated when we have proof over and over again that individuals will do what they want when it comes to intoxicants. (See Speak Easy, Bootlegging, Black Market Cocaine, MJ, etc........) The behavior is remarkably consistent regardless of the current legal environment or substance.

Your beliefs color your view to be sure, we all have our own set of experiences that we use to make judgements. The problem is that when it comes to drugs your view is Black and White, Right or Wrong and you do not see that there may be some gray. Your own life experience should tell you that the use of intoxicants (Scotch in your case if I remember right) can be controlled and done in a appropriate setting without losing ones sense of self.

Treatment centers in this country see the same problems with Drugs, Sex, gambling, alchohol, etc. (The list is long) Why are so many of these problem activities legal while we continue to pursue a failed policy in the current "War on Drugs"?

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playa46 4 years, 10 months ago

Trump

-"Playa, the problem of teenage drug use is a real one, and Aich hits the nail on the head when describing the effects on young adults. Whether you like it or not, the youth of our country should not be intoxicated on anything. Study after study proves that drug and alchohol use/abuse in your teens will dramatically increase your chances of having a substance related problem later in life. You should get off the dope and get on with your education. If you are getting B's now, you will probably get A's, if if you are getting A's on dope then imagine how smart you could be sober and straight. Marajuana is simply not a good way to make a success of yourself. Other drugs are worse including alchohol, but that does not make MJ safe."

Sorry, I am making A's and B's, and no, I don't smoke pot. Sorry, accusations about people you meet over the Internet don't make good points.

Aich-

"Your argument that alcohol kills more people than pot, so pot should be legalized, is ridiculous. The logical solution is to outlaw alcohol, increase penalties for using it, and get people who use intoxicants off the road, period. Raising the drinking age to 25 would be a great start, and it would help prevent younger kids from getting the stuff.

I assume that we cannot stop people from using pot. We can make it more difficult to obtain alcohol, and should. Certainly, any degree of intoxication whether driving or not should be unlawful if our aim is to prevent harm to people."

No, that is not the only reason why I think pot should be legal. If anything, your idea of a license to smoke is ridiculous. If you know anything about prohibition, you would know why those don't work.

No, some more reasons why MJ should be legal is because kids, no matter what you do, will get it. We spend so much money on trying to keep kids from getting MJ, money that could be used so much better on more important things.

If it were legal, people could stop making money off of it, hence getting people jobs. We could tax it, because according to statistics many people will smoke it, hence bettering our economy and the country. Also, what could taxes do? Lower the use of it.

Also, I know people who smoke, some of my good friends will. They're making honors this year, so your theory that people who smoke are : "nutsos, freaks, abuse survivors" is not all true, just based off of where you are and where you grew up in. (Remember good old Micheal Phelps?)

Again, Alcohol kills more people than MJ does, you cannot deny that fact.

Pot has been smoked for thousands of years, do you really think we would be where we are if pot is as bad and evil as you say?

Lastly, pot has no dangerous effects unless you use it many times a day, which is...well logical, just the same as basically anything else.

Sorry the world doesn't agree with you, Aich.

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aichempty 4 years, 10 months ago

Trump,

You are reading my posts through "trump-colored glasses" instead of seeing the real content.

I don't know that my "fiscal" policies are "conservative" at all.

I thing the truth on the face of the matter is that personal responsibility cannot solve the problems, because if it could, there would be no drug problems. With no incentive to avoid drug abuse outside of a drug-addled brain that seeks the drugs, how can personal responsibility work?

Government cannot solve every person's individual problem. There's not enough money on the planet to pay people to run around wiping the vomit off everybody else's chin.

Playa makes the very good point that people who seek drugs will get them. He doesn't understand that allowing immature brains to have whatever they want often has tragic consequences for the user and for innocent bystanders. The Lori Bases murder case proves that one graphically. So, do we just accept that there will be violent attacks and overdoses and innocent people will get killed because it's cheaper than the alternative?

And, trump, you also garbled the distinction between drug crime and other crime. I don't doubt that legalizing drugs would take some of the money out of drug dealing (but not affect the people who sell to kids who couldn't obtain drugs under age anyway). I strongly disagree that shutting off drug money would reduce crime, because cutting off the money supply to criminals is only going to make them find another way to try to get it.

In the area around my second home, a teenage girl held up a convenience store with a gun. She left the store, was confronted by police, and ended up shot to death. This is an area being affected to a strong degree by business closures, the auto industry slow-down, and a poor economy for uneducated people to begin with. People have less money. They are not buying things they used to buy. I presume this includes drugs. Drug dealers are turning to other crimes as a result. People are turning to gangs because they have nowhere else to turn, and violent initiations are resulting in random shootings almost daily.

The place the real world outside of Routt County is heading is into a shooting war between the haves and the have-nots and the early engagements are happening right now.

So, I'm not worried about affluent white kids smoking dope in Routt County. They're going to end up working for Indian kids who value hard work, the expectations of their families, individual productivity, and will pay the dope smokers what they're worth to the bottom line of the business.

Our culture is in decline. Others are moving in to fill the niches abandoned by people who don't want to be bothered with achieveing excellence. We are going to be at the mercy of people with different cultural values and mores, and a lot of people who are smoking dope today are going to regret it when they discover they can't compete.

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playa46 4 years, 10 months ago

Aich-

"In the area around my second home, a teenage girl held up a convenience store with a gun. She left the store, was confronted by police, and ended up shot to death. This is an area being affected to a strong degree by business closures, the auto industry slow-down, and a poor economy for uneducated people to begin with. People have less money. They are not buying things they used to buy. I presume this includes drugs. Drug dealers are turning to other crimes as a result. People are turning to gangs because they have nowhere else to turn, and violent initiations are resulting in random shootings almost daily."

Another emotional, yet non-fact based post. Wouldn't legalizing marijuana help put a stop to dealers, and other crimes? I don't even think you read my post.

"Playa makes the very good point that people who seek drugs will get them. He doesn't understand that allowing immature brains to have whatever they want often has tragic consequences for the user and for innocent bystanders."

You know the side effects of pot right? Hardly any, people have used this plant to cure aches and sickness for thousands of years. Yes, problems can arise with pot, so does alcohol, which is legal.

Don't you get it, Aich? There will always be problems with pot, just as there are with Alcohol, which immature minds can get at. The thing is, we don't need another life story kind of post that you throw at us, facts point to the fact that Marijuana is not dangerous, unless abused (like everything else), and yet, you stay close-minded and continue to convince yourself because you believe you have seen the big bad world outside of Steamboat and we haven't, and therefore, you are wiser with decisions.

I really hope one day you will finally realize that you are an ignorant fool and that our "culture is not in decline because the world doesn't agree with you."

As for the rest of us, we will realize that the world is not lead by one man's opinion, and that relying on facts rather than emotion will benefit all of us.

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NchronicPain 4 years, 10 months ago

Aich-a-bigot says, "So, I'm not worried about affluent white kids smoking dope in Routt County. They're going to end up working for Indian kids who value hard work, the expectations of their families, individual productivity, and will pay the dope smokers what they're worth to the bottom line of the business.

Our culture is in decline. Others are moving in to fill the niches abandoned by people who don't want to be bothered with achieveing excellence. We are going to be at the mercy of people with different cultural values and mores, and a lot of people who are smoking dope today are going to regret it when they discover they can't compete."

OMG. So, when you say "Indians" are you refering now to people from India? or native Americans? Either way, you say these "races" value hard work more than affluent white kids? I don't know where you come from, and what crowd of people raised you, but you are sick in the head. The reason our culture is in a downturn is because of people with attitudes like yourself. You have raised judgemental and biased children, I'm sure, and you are teaching them to kick people while their down and feed stereotypes like the family dog. Aich, you've lowered my hope in mankind.

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aichempty 4 years, 10 months ago

Playa,

You're entitled to your opinion, but I suspect you have a lot to learn.

H. G. Wells wrote about the "Eloi" in his novel, "The TIme Machine." They were provided with everything they needed. In return, they were eaten by the Morlocs.

Homer wrote about the Land of the Lotus Eaters. He wrote about Ulysses and his crew under the influence of Circe, who clouded their minds and kept them captive for seven years.

I'd say that our history and literature document the effects of drug abuse through the history of human civilization. Certainly, popular culture through the 19th and 20th centuries have lessons to be learned about the consequences of moral decay in our society, and the role of substance abuse of all kinds in causing pain and suffering to human beings.

Drugs in America are exactly the same as lead poisoning was back in Imperial Rome. When people become crazy and irresponsible, their civilizations fall. The human brain was either created by God to build civilizations, or it evolved that way by chance, but in either case the innovations that give you central heat, flush toilets and MTV are a result of the struggle to exist, and the resulting learning that occurs, and the resulting knowledge and experience that make our modern world possible.

The day you walk into a clinic with a mass on your testicle and can't understand what the doctor is trying to tell you, because he barely speaks English, you'll understand what marijuana has done to this country.

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mtroach 4 years, 10 months ago

Marijuana makes lumps grow on testicles??WTF that wasn't listed on the warning label.

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nurmidst 4 years, 10 months ago

aich has done a good job of distraction from the absurdness of this story maybe he is the fixer sent in to distract while the real story is swept under the rug, our tax dollars being wasted!How much did this cost? I do agree with this point "This is not about whether it's right or wrong, or should be legalized. It's about personal responsibility. When a person devotes time and effort to obtaining an intoxicating substance to the exclusion of useful and productive activities"and should be applied to all! our government is shut down one day a week so this can continue? What happened with this story? Will we ever hear more or has there been a gag order? Advice to Tim row row row your boat!

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aichempty 4 years, 10 months ago

roachster,

Some studies have shown that sons of women who smoked marijuana have higher rates of testicular cancer. The THC attaches to receptors on "atypical" (mutated) cells in the testes, which every male has, while the embryo is developing. The THC interferes with naturally occurring substances that limit cancer cell growth. Then, when testosterone is produced at puberty, the atypical cells multiply and become a malignant tumor. It can take years for the masses to be big enough to feel, just the same as breast cancers which start with a few cells and grow over time. This is the reason why testicular cancer is typically found in younger men. It was there from the womb, was switched on at puberty, and then takes a number of years to grow big enough to be detected.

Cannabis linked to testicular cancer - Health News, Health ...Feb 9, 2009 ... The soaring rate of testicular cancer in the UK and other Western countries is linked today to the increased popularity of cannabis.

http://www.newser.com/story/50280/study-links-cannabis-to-testicular-cancer.html

(Newser) Cannabis use has been linked to a significant increase in the risk of developing testicular cancer, the Independent reports. Those who light up have a 70% higher risk of getting nonseminoma cancer-found in younger men-and the odds worsen with frequency and duration of use, the research has found. Some scientists dismiss the first-ever link between marijuana and the ailment, saying the study's sample size was too small.

Chronic use of the drug is known to reduce sperm quality and boost impotence, which has been previously linked to testicular cancer. The testes have THC receptors, and the study suggests cannabis mellows out a naturally produced anti-cancer chemical. Critics insist that testicular cancer-whose prevalence has doubled since 1979-affects only a tiny portion of the 3 million cannabis users.

So, gosh, I dunno. Maybe pot is a folk medicine cure for not "gettin' any" in the first place, so the harmful effects of impotence and reduced sperm count never come up (pardon the puns).

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trump_suit 4 years, 10 months ago

All I will say in closing is this:

I am glad that I live in a world where individuals have the right to make their own decisions. Aich's comments about the Gov't trying to control our behavior and individual actions scare me to death. This argument is not about the benefits or destructiveness of Substance "fill in the blank", it is about what is best for our society as a whole.

The "War on Drugs" has been lost and a new way is needed.

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aichempty 4 years, 10 months ago

trump,

The government cannot control anyone's behavior. If it could, there would be no robbers or murderers locked up in Canon City. The ENRON scandal would not have happened. Lori Bases would not be dead.

94 Senators voted against funds to close down the prison at Guantanamo Bay. Some people still have some common sense.

The alternative to the war on drugs is the involuntary incarceration and treatment of offenders with substances that will make them sick if they use intoxicants. We don't have the money to pay for that either.

Next idea?

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NchronicPain 4 years, 10 months ago

Aich, the results of whatever study proved that THC reduces sperm count has been proven false a number of times recently. Most of the research you reference has been proven false. In one non-clinical instance, a movie was made, somewhat of a comedy, but still a documentary of sorts, called, "Super High Me" A comedian and registered medical marijuana patient in California was the leading actor. It was modeled off the movie, "Supersize Me" (about the guy who ate nothing but McDonalds for 30days straight and the effect it had on him). Well, in "Super High Me" this guy inhales vapors of marijuana and eats medicated food and such for 30 days straight. Before and after, he was put through tests. His sperm count actually went UP. He only did bad on the cognition tests when he was actually high, and there were no ill side-effects at all. He actually spoke of how fantastic it was. So, I'm with the Dr's that were mentioned in your article on testicular cancer and marijuana (which you love to reference so often), and I chalk it up as more politically-motivated research intended to mask the real truth and instill a fear factor in a not-so-scary fact of life..... Marijuana is harmless..... borderline healthy...... most definitely healthier than most things in this world.

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aichempty 4 years, 10 months ago

Chronie,

Denial is more than a river in Africa.

That link I posted is from a pro-pot website.

The term quoted from the pasted article above does not say "sperm count." It says "sperm quality." Different thing. Low motility and low fertility are common causes for failure to conceive, which is not really a problem for most stoners anyway. If you've seen, "The Good Girl" it was portrayed in that movie as a problem for Jennifer Anniston and John C. Riley because he sat around smoking pot all day instead of going to work at his job as a painter.

Sperm counts do go up when your're not getting rid of any of it because you're too stoned to care . . . .

Just between you and me, I'll bet there are a few people around town becoming very familiar with the anatomy of their testicles and have now learned that the epididymis is not actually a cancerous tumor.

Today I had a very interesting encounter with a gentleman driving a large car purchased (according to the decal and the tv commercials) from a dealer that "doesn't worry about no credit problems." He had a razor-wire style frame around his license tag and there was a pendant in the shape of a marijuana leaf hanging from the rearview mirror.

Unfortunately, that's your stereotype, and nobody is making him do it.

You guys just need to figure out a way to furnish marijuana to responsible citizens and keep it out of the hands of idiots. That would solve everything.

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NchronicPain 4 years, 10 months ago

Aich, your scare tactics don't work. I'm not worried about my nuts. Why are you? I never was hinting that your article came from a anti-pot website, why did you blurt that it was from a pro-pot website? I simply said the test had too small of a subject base. There are many other studies done that do not support this one you hold so high.

Now, we agree that marijuana should be in the hands of responsible people. But, it should also be an option for sick people. People can truly benefit from it's medicinal quality.

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mtroach 4 years, 10 months ago

"You guys just need to figure out a way to furnish marijuana to responsible citizens and keep it out of the hands of idiots. That would solve everything." = Legalization,and taxation.

Thanks for finally comming around. Untill someone other than a criminal sells it, any idiot, with money can get it. We have figured out a way, we're just waiting for everyone else to come around to our soluition.

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aichempty 4 years, 10 months ago

roachie,

No, you still don't get it.

A person who has been convicted of multiple DUIs can walk into a liquor store and buy as much as they want.

Lots of folks who don't have licenses still drive drunk after getting a DUI. Some of them don't stop drinking until they go to jail. I've known a couple of them right here in Steamboat who did exactly that.

Legalization of pot doesn't keep it out of the hands of irresponsible people any more than prohibition or the repeal of prohibition kept alcohol out of the hands of drunks.

Oh, by the way, the lumps that don't hurt, wherever they occur, are the ones you really need to worry about.

Why do I care? Wow. Because you're a human being, I guess. I wish my grandfathers had been warned about cigarettes early enough to avoid death from lung cancer. They worked hard all their lives and only lived a total of 6 years past their 65th birthdays.

The other reason I care is because I don't want to meet a pot smoker head-on on a two-lane, snow packed road around here. It's bad enough standing behind them in a lift line.

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oldskoolstmbt 4 years, 10 months ago

actually aich, you do want to meet them head on,(this is assuming you have a choice of devils) they will be the one's way over in THEIR lane, going about 5-10 under the speed limit....but once again, you compare to alcohol...because that is all you know about....i used to 'smoke the nasty' day in and out...and drink the poison as well (usually not at the same time)...anyway, IN MY OPINION..i would rather my kids smoke pot than drink (i know you will go off about that...let's mark that as exhibit P), does it make you stupid (pot), yes after time it really does,...or let's just say you enjoy the clarity once you choose it instead of it choosing you...anyway, nothing you will say about anything will make a difference...people make their own decisions...or pick their own poisons...it's not as bad as you perceive it...(ms.mary ju-wanna)

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aichempty 4 years, 10 months ago

Skooler,

Yeah, it's as bad as I perceive. It steals from kids when they don't even know it. All of the intoxicants are equally bad. Drugs can heal and ease suffering, but they also rob and steal from everybody who uses them for any other purpose.

But, you know, that's okay. I'm old enough now that I don't have to deal with pot smokers in the workplace. I can choose where I live and where I shop. I can spot the abusers and avoid them. My kids are out of high school and managed to avoid drug problems, and they're in high demand by employers who know the score. Pot smokers are killing businesses all over the place as people have less money to spend on luxuries and happy meals, and consumers won't go back to a place that's dirty, bug-ridden or staffed by a bunch of slow-witted abusers.

I've learned something traveling on the Interstate highways. When you pull off at an exit and see a fast food place with an empty parking lot, there's a reason. When it takes 1/2 hour to get a hamburger and fries, and you have to wait for them to figure out that they need to make fries after the burgers are ready, and you're the only three or four people in the place, people won't go back a second time.

Don't even bother to stop for fast food on I-75 between Chattanooga and Orlando. It's equally bad from Nashville to St. Louis. Anything past Columbia, MO is a gamble.

Can you imagine a McDonald's where they ran out of ketchup?

I think the war on drugs may end when the stoners can't pay because their jobs have all disappeared. Too bad. They're going to sober up and have no idea what to do next.

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trump_suit 4 years, 10 months ago

"Don't even bother to stop for fast food on I-75 between Chattanooga and Orlando. It's equally bad from Nashville to St. Louis. Anything past Columbia, MO is a gamble."

So if I read this correctly, everyone East of Columbia, Mo is a stoner and should be avoided.

It must be comforting to be able to blame every single problem in the world on the stoners. Sorry, but you once again show your complete lack of understanding about the real world.

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beverly lemons 4 years, 10 months ago

I can think of a restaurant in Steamboat that I wont go to, because the owner and staff are always high-and not on pot. Cocaine, the true powder of our town. You think a mj stoned waitress is bad? How about one that can't stop talking and climbs under your table looking for napkins?

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nurmidst 4 years, 10 months ago

That fast food you scarf down out on the road will kill you long before the lumps on our nuts!

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aichempty 4 years, 9 months ago

Listening to the whining of a teenager who won't eat anything but chicken nuggest will kill you faster than eating at McDonalds. I only keep him around because his mother insists on it.

Trump, I said "fast food." In most parts of our country, that's where the uneducated and unqualified work. The places that are empty when the others are full of cars with local tags are the ones I'm talking about.

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playa46 4 years, 9 months ago

Aich- "Yeah, it's as bad as I perceive. It steals from kids when they don't even know it. All of the intoxicants are equally bad. Drugs can heal and ease suffering, but they also rob and steal from everybody who uses them for any other purpose."

You just disproved yourself in less than two sentences. How can honestly say that all drugs are equally bad? Meth, coke, ya that's bad. You get hooked on the first time, but, as you stated above, marijuana heals and eases suffering.

I am so sick and tired of repeating myself, the facts point to something different. Even when I show you facts, you disregard them, saying that they are pro-pot facts and sources. You could say the exact same thing coming from your facts, that is, if you could find anything. So, for kicks and giggles, I'll try again.

http://economics.about.com/od/incometaxestaxcuts/a/marijuana.htm

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/StockInvestingTrading/a-budget-cure-marijuana-taxes.aspx

Your posts are very.....imaginary. When you come up with a post that has facts replacing the so very sad experiences you've had in your life, I just might consider reading it.

Aich, I don't know you, and you don't know me. But from what you blabber about all the time, you must have a very successful and happy life, therefore, you should be proud of what you have done in the world. Don't listen to these other posters. However, your ideology of a perfect world does not fit in this society anymore. You can be oblivious and close-minded, but then again, so can be all of us.

Sorry I haven't posted in a while.

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trump_suit 4 years, 9 months ago

That was excellent research Playa. It shows that mainstream America is coming around.

Aich, you may fight and kick and scream all the way to the voting booth, but I personally think that you will see marajuana legalized in your lifetime. It is becoming clear that the problems with the black market culture and supply chain of these substances is actually a larger problem than the substances themselves.

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aichempty 4 years, 9 months ago

Playa,

I can take you to places where everybody smokes pot and nobody graduated from high school. Riding on the back of a trash truck to empty the cans is considered a "cherry" job.

My high school is having a reunion soon. People have been posting their life stories. The beer-drinking, pot-smoking, drug abusing members of the class clearly hit their peak in the 10th grade, and then went down hill after learning to drive. It's really sad. The only one who achieved anything of merit is a guy who joined the Navy and retired as a Chief Petty Officer (E-7). I guess he was out at sea long enough and often enough, with constant adult supervision, that he made something of himself. I reckon that if he had grown up in Steamboat with a trust fund, he'd be a stoner living in a trailer and probably growing pot -- maybe even be a medical MJ user. Instead, his parents kicked him out when he was 18 and he joined up to support himself. Oh, did I mention that he lives in Jamaica now?

If your aim is to create a larger lower class population, legalizing drugs should do it. What are they going to do to support themselves?

People are against drug legalization because abusers are not good consumers. They don't spend money on hard goods, long-term loans, etc. They are a drag on the economy and a drag on business. Loss of productivity is the issue, and drug abuse is the cause.

Lawyers sitting in state legislatures and Congress will legalize pot, if it happens. It won't happen, because lawyers know that pot abusers don't have money to spend on lawyers.

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honestabe 4 years, 9 months ago

Aich, shut up, please, you make little to no sense, except in your own little "i am the greatest" world. i'd be willing to bet the places you mentioned, "I can take you to places where everybody smokes pot and nobody graduated from high school", have been very low income neighborhoods, even before they dropped out. Is the pot the main cause of this poverty, or the poverty? why do stoners from steamboat make something of themselves, and not the people you mention? I am sure you are aware of many very successful steamboaters that regularly smoke weed, or are you that far inside your own convoluted world?

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mtroach 4 years, 9 months ago

"I can take you to places where everybody smokes pot and nobody graduated from high school. Riding on the back of a trash truck to empty the cans is considered a "cherry" job."

For some it is a "cherry" job. My dad worked for as a trashman for 25 years, and put three kids through college on his pay, he grew up in a poor side of town, down south where rich white folk didn't care about giving better opportunities to lower class folk. He worked hard at at that job to assure his family could eat and have a roof over our heads. Your social snobbery makes me sick.

"My high school is having a reunion soon"... "The only one who achieved anything of merit is a guy who joined the Navy and retired as a Chief Petty Officer (E-7).... Oh, did I mention that he lives in Jamaica now?"

What do these statements say about you? Last time I checked NRoutt isn't Jamaica.

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NchronicPain 4 years, 9 months ago

"I reckon that if he had grown up in Steamboat with a trust fund, he'd be a stoner living in a trailer and probably growing pot - maybe even be a medical MJ user."

Aich, I love these statements that you spew with the mere intention of ruffling people's feathers. Much to your dismay, most medical marijuana users are well off, we live in nice house, live happy & healthy lives and, if physically possible, we work and hold decent jobs. I, for one, live in half-million dollar townhome at the base of the mountain and am at managerial status at my job. Marijuana, when used safely and effectively has no ill-effect on one's life. In my case, it allows me to function all day, with less pain than normal. It will become apparent to the majority soon that we are doing society much more of a disservice by allowing alcohol on every corner & arresting and incarcerating people for marijuana. It makes no sense.

sensiblecolorado.org

American's For Safe Access

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aichempty 4 years, 9 months ago

Roach,

Cry me a river. My grandfather was a sharecropper. My father and his siblings got one pair of shoes a year, and they did without things that money can buy. They literally walked to school bare-footed with frost on the ground until the money from the harvest came in. My dad has often said that my grandfather made him feel like he was taking the food out of his brothers' and sisters' mouths every time he got a new pair of shoes. There's one college grad ouf of the bunch, and only a few of us grandchildren who graduated from college. I was the only one I can think of who was "given" anything, and I paid it back with 9 years of military service where the only way I could quit was to die.

My other grandfather had a sixth-grade education and was lucky to get a job driving a bus when he was almost 40 years old.

One of them was a drunk and both of them died of lung cancer from smoking Camels.

Is it just me, or does avoiding substance abuse (even tobacco) make sense when you have those examples in your life?

So it may come as a surprise to you, but your experience with rich white people is not unique. They will pay taxes or give some away, but never to the point that they suffer or sacrifice as a result.

So what do us poor white people do about the 600 out of 1500 kids in that district way down south who start high school in grade 9 each year and then don't graduate? Are there enough toilets to clean for them all to have a job?

I respect your father for supporting your family. But what about all them pot-smoking daddies who don't take care of their kids? Do ya think they're passing something valuable along to the kids? Drugs are ruining lives all over this country, and unless the members of the communities do something about it, it's never going to get better.

Legalization might get you off the hook some day. Abstention will keep you from being anywhere near the hook. If you can't find any other way to spend your time and effort than by obtaining and using pot unlawfully, you should seriously consider the fact that you are addicted and your "other personality" Herb is doing all the talking.

Chronie,

Smoke 'em if you've got 'em. Glad to hear about your town home, because that means my place has really gone up in value since I checked. I'm happy for your comfort and status, but you're crazy if you think that any intoxicant should be turned loose on the juvenile propulation to do with as they choose. Don't you realize that kids who don't have much of a chance to start with are only going to suffer more by wasting the few opportunities they have in favor of using intoxicants until they're old enough to drop out?

Yeah, booze is bad. They should put people who furnish it to kids in the same jail as the drug dealers.

I think the truth is that you guys don't care about other people whose lives are harmed by drug use, and just maybe it's the drugs you use that are doing the talking.

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mtroach 4 years, 9 months ago

I noticed you didn't refute this:

"The only one who achieved anything of merit is a guy who joined the Navy and retired as a Chief Petty Officer (E-7):. Oh, did I mention that he lives in Jamaica now?" What do these statements say about you? Last time I checked NRoutt isn't Jamaica.

No wise informative comments on the merits of your existance.

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NchronicPain 4 years, 9 months ago

Aicher says, "Chronie, ....you're crazy if you think that any intoxicant should be turned loose on the juvenile propulation to do with as they choose. Don't you realize that kids who don't have much of a chance to start with are only going to suffer more by wasting the few opportunities they have in favor of using intoxicants until they're old enough to drop out?"

Where do you get that I think this? I have said nothing about juveniles. I realize this: I graduated high school and college, I have a wonderful, beautiful, and successful wife, I have held a job in this town in a fast, paced successful job being promoted and given raises......all while using this drug that you say destroys lives. Well, I am proof the drug is not the reason. It's the people.

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trump_suit 4 years, 9 months ago

Aich, You need to get off your "high horse", take of your "blinders" and have a real conversation about this issue. Not one person on this forum has advocated the use of MJ by adolescents, juveniles, or teenagers.

Until you decide to discuss the issue intelligently I am thru. Your long held opinions about drugs have fueled the "War of Drugs" since the Nixon administration (Ie 40 years) During that time, the problem has grown and gotten worse.

We are fighting each and every problem that you discuss right this very minute in every street, city and state in this nation If the "War of Drugs" was so successful I would think that you could at least show even one statistic about lowering drug use during that time.

Your hard-core attitude about drugs will not change and you have made that painfully clear to all of us. The problem is that your solutions have not worked. It is time to find another way.

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nurmidst 4 years, 9 months ago

Have'nt you heard ignorance is bliss your harshing are buzz!

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aichempty 4 years, 9 months ago

Roach,

What do you want me to refute? I told the truth. The only guy among the boozer-dopers who made anything of his life is a retired E-7 living in Jamaica -- where pot is the national flower, right?

N Routt is not in Jamaica. I agree with you. I didn't go to high school in N Routt either. They have these things called "trucks" which will haul your "furniture" from one house to another when you "move."

Chronie, just as with alcohol, the problem is the people AND the drug when combined. I also read an article in the April 2009 Discovery magazine that talked about pot, etc., possibly aiding creativity, but impairing higher brain functions of reasoning, logic, etc. So, get ####ed-up and write a poem, or whatever, but don't tell me it helps you pass Thermodynamics. Get it?

Trump, I think you'll have to agree that underage kids get tobacco, beer, booze and recreational drugs. Making these substances easier to obtain in the general population means that there's a higher chance of kids getting the stuff by stealing it from lawful possessors or having it given to them, or sold to them by someone who purchased the substances legally.

I know that I am not going to have any affect on any of you who post here. It's your choice. I'm not the judge or the law-makers who will decide what will ultimately be done.

I'm just saying that the pursuit of an intoxicant, of an altered state of mind, of a physically or psychologically addicting substance by human beings is not a behavior to promote, facilitate or allow to be emulated by the general public because of the lifelong damage that can occur. I know all the problems we already have. I just don't see how adding one more will improve society or the state of human life.

So, all of you put your heads together and figure out how to make pot easier to get while keeping it away from adolescents and chronic malignant abusers, because that's what it's going to take to legalize the stuff.

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playa46 4 years, 9 months ago

Aich- You need to get away from the third grade education of yours about marijuana, and grow up a bit.

"I'm just saying that the pursuit of an intoxicant, of an altered state of mind, of a physically or psychologically addicting substance by human beings is not a behavior to promote, facilitate or allow to be emulated by the general public because of the lifelong damage that can occur. I know all the problems we already have. I just don't see how adding one more will improve society or the state of human life."

Basically, every single post of yours explains how marijuana is baaaad by using logic every single person on this friggin' planet knows, or you try to relate your incredible and epiphany filled life lessons to marijuana.

And I want to hear where you got this article. (Could is be, your first fact of this post????!!!!)

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aichempty 4 years, 9 months ago

Playa,

I'm assuming you've never taken a drink from a bottle of bleach. Why?

If you had never smoked pot, would you be so anxious to give it out to everybody who wants it? That's what you don't know. You don't know whether it's your choice, or an addictive side effect of THC. Behavioral correlation is a valid scientific tool to connect side effects with substance abuse. Even if the specific biochemical process is not known, the statistical correlation (or lack thereof) tells the tale.

They just took two anti-smoking drugs off the market because of psychogenic side effects (aggression, depression and suicide). I guarantee you that nobody can come up with a biochemical reason for why this happened, but they have behavioral data to back it up. Q E D

My prediction for you, friend, is that you'll never be all you could be if you let your life be diverted to drug use as a form of recreation. The irony is that you'll never know, or even care, because the drugs will have you fooled. You'll never know about the relationships you'll miss or the opportunities you won't get because people figure out that you're a substance abuser.

Everybody has their limits, physical or mental, that only let them go so far in life. Smoking pot isn't going to raise those limits.

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