Felony drug charges filed against Jensens

Steamboat couple accused of growing, selling marijuana out of their home

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— Marijuana possession and cultivation charges have been filed against a Steamboat Springs couple accused of growing the drug at their Ninth Street home.

Felony summonses were issued Feb. 24 for David Wayne Jensen and Marie Sellitto Jensen, in connection with the marijuana operation discovered Feb. 7 in Old Town. Investigators said they seized 48 marijuana plants and about 8 pounds of dried and processed marijuana from the Jensens' home.

The husband and wife are due to appear for their advisements in Routt County Court on March 17.

Each has been charged with Class 4 felony charges of cultivation of marijuana and possession of marijuana with intent to sell or distribute, and Class 5 felony charges of possession of 8 ounces or more of marijuana. Each also is charged with a Class 3 felony count of possession of a Schedule I controlled substance for a small amount of psilocybin, or hallucinogenic mushrooms, found at their home.

Attorney Kris Hammond, who represents Marie Jensen, did not return calls for comment Tuesday. No attorney has entered a notice of appearance with the court on David Jensen's behalf. The Jensens do not have a listed phone number.

The Steamboat Springs Police Department discovered the grow operation during a party at the home Feb. 7, while neither of the suspects were at home. Police ultimately cited 16 juveniles at the party for possessing alcohol.

During a subsequent search of the home, law enforcement officers said they found 54 marijuana plants in various stages of growth, in addition to 8 pounds of usable marijuana.

"For somebody to smoke that amount of marijuana, they'd have a joint in their mouth 24/7," said All Crimes Enforcement Team Task Force Commander Garrett Wiggins last month. "It's more than just your personal use type of stuff."

Marie Jensen, 53, has a medical marijuana license, but the house contained far more of the drug than a licensee is allowed to possess under state law, according to investigators. Colorado allows a licensed medical marijuana user to have as much as 2 ounces of usable marijuana and six plants, only three of which can be mature.

A typical cultivator can yield 6 to 8 ounces of product from a single plant, according to Wiggins. By those guidelines, the 48 plants seized from the home could have produced an additional 18 to 24 pounds of marijuana.

Marie and David Jensen are due to appear at 8:30 a.m. March 17 for their advisements in Routt County Court. Hammond has requested that Marie Jensen's court date be moved to March 24, though the court has yet to rule on his request.

Comments

NchronicPain 6 years, 4 months ago

best, first of all, ACET is not involved anymore. They are worthless and you should be glad they handed this over to the Steamboat DA. Secondly, they may not be drug dealers, but the evidence says otherwise. Holding a medical marijuana card does not give someone the right to grow plants all over their house and possess however much medicine that they want. The limits are there for a reason, to protect the patient from charges such as these. There were and still are perfectly safe and legitimate places to get rid of the medicine so you are not commiting felonys. And that IS what she was doing....... committing felonys. No doubt about it. And medical marijuana patients should NEVER have other illict drugs in there home, even mushrooms. My prediction is that she and her husband will plea bargain down to possession of mushrooms. I hope the judge advises her to take her choice of medicine a bit more seriously, especially in the presence of your children.

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Duke_bets 6 years, 4 months ago

jk and best - Can you read? 54 marijuana plants, 8 pounds of weed ready to smoke, and mushrooms. That's besides the fact that 16 juveniles were drinking alcohol at the residence. The facts are there................Dealers! The medical marijauna card did not even have to be stated in this article. That point is truly irrelevant.

best - Nice choice of friends.

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aichempty 6 years, 3 months ago

THC is already available as a prescription in tablet form called "marinol."

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Duke_bets 6 years, 4 months ago

jk - 13 pounds or 8 pounds.................It doesn't really matter. That is most likely $20,000+ in drugs. Let me guess, the kiddies brought that over for some party favors too.

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oldskoolstmbt 6 years, 4 months ago

funny, i don't look at medical maryjane patients any differently because of this...anyone else?

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Duke_bets 6 years, 4 months ago

jk - Spelling loser incorrectly is quite amusing.

Does it really matter if they were home? What does them being out of town have to do with this article? They had 54 plants and 8 pounds of weed in their house. That's not recreational use or party favors. That is drug dealers. Period!

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jk 6 years, 4 months ago

Duke, thanks for pointing out my typo. As for your other comments like I said before stick to what you know.

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trump_suit 6 years, 4 months ago

I am thinking that the Beatles did OK. Clinton did alright by himself regardless how he finished. Bill Gates isn't hurting too bad.

Just a few stoner names for you Aich. I will refrain from naming anyone that we may mutually know.

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jk 6 years, 4 months ago

Duke, It has already been stated that they weren't in town when the party was taking place. Can you read? Of course I suppose they were responsible for the party too according to your blinding logic. Please stick to subjects you know something about. Chronic, Having raised 2 kids I can speak from experience, You can teach them and mentor them all you want, you will be sure they will know better than to make those bad decisions, and the next thing you know you are being called home from your vacation because of something you were sure they never would have done. I hope the best for your child raising adventures if they ever happen , but never be sure about anything. I agree with you that with a little bit of better judgement this whole thing could have been avoided. I hope that everything turns out ok in this issue and that all parties will have learned a lesson. best, I agree these are not bad people they just made a few bad decisions congrats to you for sticking by your friends.

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NchronicPain 6 years, 4 months ago

aichempty, your logic will prove itself false. I'm a certain.

"The truth hurts?".... and "don't it?"<<now YOU sound like Michael Phelps.... or a "loser-potamus" whatever that is.

What truth have you spoken? All I see is senseless rambling still. Cheech and Chong weren't even successful, that's why they went back on tour last year, because they are both broke. It's perfect ridiculous that you blame pot for the worlds problems. Or even think that it has some kind effect on property values or the community of Routt County. Sir, I don't answer to my medicine, I seek it out, because it allows me to live, it allows me energy to learn & I am healthier with it. Would your suggestion for me be that I follow conventional, typical medicinal practice?... and take Oxycontin everyday until the serotonin in my brain is completely depeleted and my life has become absolutely destroyed. Oh, that would be great, I'd be pain-free, yes, but my life would be gone. Marijuana has given me my life back. I manage a local, extremely sucessful business. I AM more successful that Cheech and Chong.... much more. Your viewpoints make me laugh. Maybe you should put down your newspaper, turn off the TV, tell your wife to shut up for minute, quit tipping the bottle every evening so you brain won't be so wet, and get outside in nature. Get some excersize and eat some Organic food. Your slipping off into some place in your mind that has lost touch with reality. Thank you for exposing the true issues you have inside you, it validates to me that society IS brainwashed by our govenment's propaganda and people like you ARE better off in your house, depressed and angry because the world is going in direction that you don't understand..... Well, NEWSFLASH, times are changing my friend, and the old, conservative grayhairs of yesteryear are dying off by the day. Go ahead, drink your ensure, and eat your preservatives, take you pharmacueticals by the handful and keep drinking their "safe" tap water. I'm sure you'll die off just as quick as all your friends that voted for McCain and fought in WW2.... we don't care about your viewpoints, we will continue eat Organic, medicate with nature and live free, easy, long and happy.... much to your shagrin, I'm sure. So watch us build houses in Steamboat, own, operate & manage the businesses you come into town and shop and eat at, and we will retire early, with health and energy to ski the mountain into our 60's just like my Dad. Got anything alse to say Aich?, because you nonsense is truly entertaining.

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playa46 6 years, 4 months ago

Duke- How is it pointless? Tell me that. Your speed idea makes no sense as well. All I know is that alcohol and smoking kills more people in America, how does that not make sense?

Aich- You're seperating a group of people. Not all marijuana users were not successful. Nice try though.

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cheesehead 6 years, 3 months ago

Somehow I came to the conclusion that you think marijauna has some medical value, and should be treated as such (by removing from the schedule 1 list). I don't know how the heck I dreamed that up.

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jk 6 years, 4 months ago

Aich, I think you have this backwards. Pharmaceutical drugs are so expensive because the companies that "fast track" them through the approval process with minimal testing, have to keep their high priced lawers on hand to fight battles from the little consumers finding they have drug related problems. Not to mention the cost of greasing political, insurance, and health industry hands.

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Duke_bets 6 years, 4 months ago

bestfree - 'Slandering the Jensen's'...........Really? My guess is that those charges will never be brought against the Pilot. And, the cops are making this up? So, they didn't really confiscate all those drugs? The cops scales weigh differently? They count to 50+ differently? Give it up.

50 plants and $20,000 + in drugs..............You can all come to a conclusion. This was not a gardening experiment!

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NchronicPain 6 years, 5 months ago

......and I just saw a book fly by.... yup, smacked Marie in the face with it, didn't they? Maybe she'll take having a medical marijuana card a little more seriously now..... maybe not.

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jk 6 years, 4 months ago

Chronic, ACET is the group that did this investigation so if the facts are misrepresented then it is their fault. According to your statement regarding this group I was wondering a few things. One why do you value the content of their investigation so much. Secondly exactly what evidence have you seen that makes you so confident they were dealing? I bet if they came digging through your house they could probably find some type of kitchen/ postal scale that weighs down to grams and a box of sandwich bags, Does that mean you are dealing? So I was wondering if there is something you know the rest of us don't? If not maybe you should just let the case play out before you start pointing fingers.

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NchronicPain 6 years, 4 months ago

OMG, aichempty, you have truly fallen completely off the deep end. You are making yourself look like a fool with your nonsense. No need to expose your true shallow personality. It would be pointless and a waste of time to try to disect the idiocracy that you just spewed above. Please spare us your mindless ramblings.

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playa46 6 years, 4 months ago

Very True Chronie, people against legalization like to make their arguments by using a group of people and saying all users are stoners.

However, when you point one finger at someone, two more are pointing back. Aich has his reasons, which are very good. Sometimes you can't change the ideas of someone, a lot of lefties are like that. Think about it.

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jk 6 years, 4 months ago

Playa, Please highlight his very good reasons?

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NchronicPain 6 years, 4 months ago

Aich, when you read the above articles (and please read them... with your eyes open), remember that I study all this research and I take to heart the risks that may accompany my medicine of choice. But, compared to the risks and side-effects that got hand-in-hand with other, FDA approved pain medicines.... Anyone with any true common sense, that can see through the lies of our governement and pharmacuetical companies, will argee that medical marijuana is MUCH safer than any of these "approved" alternatives.

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cheesehead 6 years, 3 months ago

Aich, thanks for the Marinol tip. Hopefully this product is a step towards resolving the medical marijuana debate.

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aichempty 6 years, 4 months ago

Cronie,

Why so militant? What's the big deal? You've got your pot pass, so have at it. Knock yourself out.

Time Magazine is a comic book. The ability to pen compelling agreement with a flawed premise is the essence of appellate practice in our courts; and stuff.

I've lived long enough to see plenty of people make big plans and heartfelt promises and then fall flat when it came time to produce. If you think you're going to get pot legalized and then make your fortune selling the stuff over the counter, you're sadly mistaken. The big tobacco companies will spin off subsidiaries and beat you on price and quality before you get the sign on the front door paid for. I'll order mine over the internet .

Anybody who thinks that legalizing and distributing psychoactive substances without medical supervision is not going to exaggerate the problems we already have with addiction, homelessness, joblessness, breakup of the family and loss of productivity is, well, smoking dope! You think people won't just mix legal pot with legal alcohol and stay ######ed up all weekend if that's what they're already doing anyway?

Medical use is not the problem. Responsible casual use is not the problem. Chronic addictive behavior to the detriment of all other parts of a person's life is the problem. Some people smoke pot the way a wino drinks alcohol, and that's the problem.

If you think that pot enhances your ability to do ANYTHING that requires clear thinking and quick reactions, then I recommend you go into bomb disposal or crop dusting, and let me know how that works out for you.

I've had at least a half-dozen dope dulled minds work for me over the years in Routt County, and mostly what I've seen is people who could do a lot better for themselves if they were willing to work harder. Were they poor workers because of pot, or pot users because they weren't good at anything and pot made it easier to deal with? I dont' know. I only know I won't hire a person who shows signs of substance abuse, because they've cost me tens of thousands of dollars over the years, and enough is enough. I just choose not to have a business that requires me to employ others to make my living expenses. I'll pay them to clean the house or mow the grass, but not to handle money or deal with customers, because I already know how that works out -- poorly.

I employed a very attractive 27-year old woman back in 1996. She had a master's degree in fine art. Her Daddy funded her condo and her Jeep Wrangler. She worked to make money to spend on coke and who-knows-what. She'd come in with greasy hair stuck under a ball cap, the munchies, and stinking from the night before (and you know what I mean). I don't know where she is today, but I'm betting she's a 40-year-old loser tending bar somewhere and still chasing drugs if she hasn't come down with AIDS or met a tragic end.

You remind me a lot of the things she used to say. So good luck.

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jk 6 years, 4 months ago

Aich, that was a good read it must have been a two cocktail night for you. Be careful not to let your hair down too much people might mistake you for some alcoholic looser with a sense of humor.

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NchronicPain 6 years, 3 months ago

Cheesehead says,"There are many prescription drugs where "there's a danger of abuse". I think Nchronic just wants THC to be a schedule 2 (like amphetamines, opiates, etc:) instead of a schedule 1."

Why the heck did you come to this conclusion, Cheesy?? Where is that in any of my posts??

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bestfreeheel 6 years, 5 months ago

ACET is inflating their numbers once again. 48 plants? 8 pounds of useable marijuana? Give me a break! I hope the facts will come out in this case and the Jensen's are cleared of these baseless drug-dealer charges. These people are not drug dealers, they are decent members of the community. I've known Marie for 5 years, she's a good friend, and she is not a drug dealer!

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NchronicPain 6 years, 4 months ago

jk, it is a felony to possess mushrooms. Is that fact misrepresented? When you read above, do you see me calling them dealers?? Nope. But, the FACT is that they had felonous amounts of marijuana (medical or not) and possessed mushrooms too. I don't think they were dealing and I assume that the judge will drop all charges related to the marijuana (due to her medical status, hopefully with a strict a lecture about the law she so carelessly neglects to abide by) and pin them with the one Class 3 felony, possession of Mushrooms. Believe me, the last people I support are ACET. period. But, the Jensen's make legitimate medical marijuana patients look VERY bad. I am only pointing my finger at the facts. Those pounds of marijuana and mushrooms are hard evidence, not hearsay and the ACET guys did not plant them there. So, what are you telling me to do. I have a right to post my opinion about this situation and YES.... I do have more information than these articles discuss, but if I started in on that stuff, you guys would call ME the liar. I will be eagerly awaiting the outcome of this trial, and, jk, I hope the least possible conviction is found, but I don't have my hopes up.... there is just too much hard evidence, not to pin them with distribution, but with felony possession for sure. Unfortunately, it's true. And if the ACET came to my house and inspected my medicine, they would leave it all with me, I abide by the law as it is written, not as I think it should be written.

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jk 6 years, 4 months ago

Chronic, thanks for letting me know that you don't think they were dealing, because your other post led me to believe otherwise. You are correct that it is a felony to posess mushrooms. Where i run into the hearsay part is the fact that there were 15+ kids there already breaking the law by drinking, do you suppose maybe one of them had a bag of mushrooms they brought for everyone to share at the party? Maybe when they heard that knock at the door they found the closest drawer to slip them in?? Do I have you thinking about the facts now? Ok now we are boiled down to the fact that they had too much marijuana. We still don't know the amout for sure, it has been reported that there were 13# and then 8#. The amount of plants has even changed through the story. My point is we are going by what was reported that Acet had to be tipped off on in the first place. So I for one hope that that book doesn't fly at them too hard, especially for something you have stated time and again that is not only harmless, but very helpful. Come over to the dark side world imagine all the benifits there could be if we were to stop this sensless war.

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NchronicPain 6 years, 4 months ago

oldskool, I'm glad YOU don't, but most of the world is close-minded, judgemental, uneducated and senseless.... they aren't as rational as you are.

If those circumstances you speak of, jk, are what happened, than we must rely on the courts to prove it. But, Dukey_bets up there, as a point about the quantities. She is only legally allowed to have 2 ounces.... there are 16 ounces in one pound.... ummmmmmm..... ya.

I feel bad for the Jensen's, daughter included (maybe daughter mostly). I am not sure if I will still be a medical marijuana patient when I have teenagers in my home, but I very well may. And if marijuana is still illegal (which I think it will become legal sometimes in the next 4 years), my children will be taught all about it and my reasons for using it. They will know better than to make choices such as the choices made in this situation. It is a HUGE fluke. This whole thing. But, if Marie Jensen would've just taken a bit more responsibility and protected herself and her family's well-being by abiding by the law as it is written. Then when the police came that night, it would've been merely a situation of underage drinking. Nothing should've ever been known about her choice of medicine. If she had a bottle of pain pills in her masterbath medicine cabinet, would they have freaked out over them? No. If she would've done like I do, and leave the home safe for whomever would need to come in, she'd be fine.... but it's pretty hard to leave the kid home alone, with your 40+ marijuana plants, and pounds.... and pounds... of bud, and have it all nice and concealed.

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NchronicPain 6 years, 4 months ago

jk, thank you for replying with some couthe.... It is refreshing to come to points of agreement here. I also hope the dust settles and these two can move on with their lives without too many repercussions. When I first heard of this incident, I was infuriated. Upon the revelation of more of the facts, I feel sorry them (how unlucky can a couple be??). You are correct when you speak of them teaching their kid til they were blue in the face and still never sink in. I am aware of this phenomenon..LOL.... So, yes, I will tread lightly in this area when I have kids... and I will. My point is not that they should choose different medicine, quite the contrary. My point is that they went CRAZY with the quantities and then left their kid home alone with it. I am sure they are fine people, no different than most of the rest of us.... but, I can't stand by and say they should get off completely. I made bad decisions and got in trouble in the past because of other people's mistakes, but I'd say I learned many lessons. I hope they can learn a lesson too, without too big of a fine and any time in a jail cell.

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aichempty 6 years, 4 months ago

It just dawned on me. Now I realize why the community leaders are so soft on dope in general, and pot in particular.

Some people can use recreational drugs responsibly, just like others (myself included) use alcohol responsibly. But, there are huge loser-potamuses who can't do it and end up spending their lives drunk or high. But, guess what; those people are going to have to move away from Steamboat, and probably from Colorado. It's gotten too expensive for losers to get along on the margin.

So, what happens? The losers have to sell out or move along, and in their place comes people with money to spend. More money to spend often correlates with more personal and professional success. So, loser by loser, the losers have to leave and better people come in. Better people bring more money, which is good for the tax base and the state's overall economy.

Eventually, we end up with the lower economic class being priced and pushed out by money and ambition. It's a gentrification process just like we've seen in citites where former ghettos become revitalized upscale enclaves of young professionals who want to live near work.

This is so NEAT! Let all the kids drink and smoke dope, and the losers weed (pun intended) themselves out! It's GENIUS!

Anywhere else, the Jensen's home would be confiscated and sold. It could happen here. The IRS still might get into this case, or the DEA, depending on where the leads take them and how cooperative the Jensens are.

Well, finally, this all makes sense. We don't have much drug violence around here (yet, and hopefully never), and ACET is around to chase the Mexican traffickers. But the main thing is that our courts and DAs avoid dealing too much with pot heads, knowing they'll drift away on their own after a while. And who takes their place? Seasonal workers who don't plan to stay and couldn't afford to if they wanted to, and newcomers who've succeeded elsewhere and will bring money and success to town.

Wow. This is going to be great for property values. Thanks everybody. Smoke'em if ya got 'em!

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aichempty 6 years, 4 months ago

jk,

I wasn't joking. It's true. The same thing has occurred in cities like DC and Baltimore where drug use and AIDS have decimated the poor minority populations. Respectable people are moving back in and renovating as the former residents, die, drift away and abandon their properties. Once the water and electricity are shut off for lack of payment, why stay? Taxes go unpaid, foreclosure occurs, and gentrification moves ahead. This only happens, of course, because the LAND and the location are valuable in traffic-choked cities with murderous commutes.

Steamboat is similar because the land is valuable. As property turns over, it generally attracts more affluent people. I originally came out with two other couples and we all bought second homes here and eventually moved here and occupied them.

So, the concept works. If people are not driven out by high cost and low pay alone, the addition of marijuana to the mix certainly accelerates the process. Even if a kid inherits his parents' house, what's a doper likely to do -- why sell it, of course, and pour the money into diversion, drugs and not having to work until it runs out.

So, like I said, now I understand. Pot is good for real estate speculators. It helps to break the generational continuity and lets new people with more money move in from outside. Brilliant!

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aichempty 6 years, 4 months ago

Truth hurts, don't it?

Other than Cheech and Chong, who can you name that is more successful because they have spent their lives scrounging for weed?

A person who has fallen under the control of a plant thinks I'm a fool. At least I still take orders from a human being. I'd write more, but she wants me to take out the trash.

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playa46 6 years, 4 months ago

Aich-

What about that cheery old fella, Micheal Phelps? I mean, he only won eight times in the Olympics. And I know for a fact that friggin Queen Victoria used it! Marijuana has been around forever! I am not under control of this drug, so I know what I am saying. God your arguments are terrible. You know you can't win here, so you start calling people that want legalization for marijuana stoners.

Do you have any idea how much money people make off of selling pot? Legalization would make it become way less valuable, and then no one would use it. It's just a product in the market. Once people get bored, they stop using it.

Look at places like Switzerland and Sweden. They legalize it, and they sure are not going down the drain. The fact is, alcohol (which people say "use safely") kills more people than marijuana does. Sure, if we legalize it, the charts will go way up. But in legalized countries, we see the same thing happen...it goes down.

You would have to smoke so much pot to OD. It is not a gateway drug and it has been used by people thousands of years ago.

But you know what pisses me off the most? People like you hanging onto your blind logic, claiming it is the truth. Oh wait, there is so much more evidence showing how marijuana is better than alcohol and cigarettes. Why don't you find some research and show it to all of us instead of saying:

"Other than Cheech and Chong, who can you name that is more successful because they have spent their lives scrounging for weed?

A person who has fallen under the control of a plant thinks I'm a fool."

Have a nice day...

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jk 6 years, 4 months ago

Aich, I guess we need to hear your definition of success first. I am guessing it is something like being a crabby old man living in the woods of Routt Co., drinking his cocktails, blogging to anyone who will listen, forcing his opinions on everyone, getting bossed around by his wife, and wishing he had a few friends. Well I am happy for your success. Maybe the rest of us have other ideas about it. Can't we live our lives according to our ideas of success? Especially if they are not affecting you??

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aichempty 6 years, 4 months ago

I am not a proponent for or against alcohol, tobacco, or any other substance.

I am against people wasting their lives pursuing abuse of intoxicating substances.

I asked, "who can you name that is MORE successful?"

MORE successful.

Phelps comes across as somebody suffering from brain damage due to oxygen deprivation. Maybe he's a good swimmer because his brain uses less oxygen, letting more of it be available for his muscles.

I have said that some people can use recreational drugs, alcohol, etc., with no ill effects. SOME people. It's the losers that make the point against pot. If a person spends significant portions of their waking hours planning, plotting and budgeting to get high on any substance, that's a damn shame and a waste of a human life.

I'm just making the point that people who take the least line of resistance and seek psychoactive solace from the worries of the world are not spending their time working, learning, reading, improving their skills, enhancing their ability to make a living or otherwise doing something positive to help them make enough moolah to afford a house and the cost of living in Steamboat Springs. Substance abusers of all ilks are exposing themselves to the risk of being priced out of the county, and there are plenty of people from elsewhere with more money and ambition who are poised to purchase a home and retire early in Ski Town, USA.

So, letting people stay drunk, high and stupid is a very peaceful way of, in the long run, increasing the standard of living, the tax base, the per-capita income and the economic health of a county that has nothing to sell but a few cattle and a good time.

Mt. Werner is the bait. People work hard and spend lots of money to be near it. Anything that interferes with a person's ability to compete money wise is going to eventually drive them, or their kids who follow along in the same manner, out of Routt County.

I guess I have the misfortune of growing up in a family where Mom and Dad struggled financially and luxuries were few. Dad achieved a comfortable lifestyle by the time he retired, but I was making more money than him by then, and I was able to purchase a second home in Routt County just five years later. That's the advantage of pursuing educational and career opportunities. Letters after your name can mean decimal places on your paycheck.

So, will the kids of today's pot growing illuminati (and I assume there are lots of them) be able to hang around town for the long run? That remains to be seen. I predict the stoner loser-potamuses will simply disappear over time and nobody will remember them five years from now.

As long as ACET busts a few traffickers now and then to keep people paranoid, hopefully we'll keep the pot related traffic deaths and injuries down, and this will be an affluent, mellow, peaceful place to live.

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Duke_bets 6 years, 4 months ago

playa - Stating that marijuana is better than cigarettes and alcohol is pointless. I'm sure most druggies claim that marijuana is better for you than cocaine and heroin too. Driving 85 mph in a 65 mph zone is better than driving 95 mph in the same zone. Not really.

jk - You still are missing the point or just supporting your dealer friends. I 'know' that the article stated that 54 plants and 8 pounds of ready to smoke weed was found in their house. What else is there? They have no other choice but to be dealers. That is $20,000 to $30,000 in illegal drugs. My guess is that your average pothead has never even seen 8 pounds of weed before. In Routt County, they'll only get 90 days anyway..............That's why we frequently here of these problems. The dealers never get punished, so you're right it's not that big of a deal.

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jk 6 years, 4 months ago

Duke, my guess is you haven't even seen 8 grams of weed let alone 8 pounds. That is why I keep stating that you know nothing about the subject, so please stick to things you know.

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trump_suit 6 years, 4 months ago

That was well written Aich.

The real question here is which method is more effective at solving the problem of drug abuse:

Punishment and Interdiction or Education and Treatment.

It remains my opinion that the overall costs to our society would be lower if we legalized the whole shooting match and spent our money on education and helping those that are willing to accept the help. The rest we are losing anyway.

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Duke_bets 6 years, 4 months ago

jk - I have a fairly decent understanding of the English language, so I am stating what I know. I know the same as everyone else who has read this article. Other than you, of course. You are supporting dealers, which is your choice. There is nobody holding 54 plants and $20,000 to $30,000 of drugs that is not selling.

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JLM 6 years, 4 months ago

@ trump ---

False choice. The answer is to do both.

Do you think that Mexican drug cartels are "one product" kinds of guys?

Marijuana is a gateway drug from a personal perspective but it is a pipeline drug from a drug cartel perspective. If you can export bulky marijuana, then cocaine is a breeze. And guess what, you can sell it to the same customers.

Drug profits fund all kinds of criminal activity or do you think the Mexican cartels are building churchs with their profits? Hell, there's a war going on in Mexico and it's spilling over the border into the US of A.

American does not need any more stoned derelicts, we need some responsible taxpayers.

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jk 6 years, 4 months ago

Duke, thanks for your opinion. And by the way I know you have such a wonderful understanding of the english language, I think in your earlier post you meant hear. I have learned from reading your previous posts though that you have problems with that. You may listen, but you never hear what is being said. I think that's how the saying goes anyway. lol Have a good day.

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Kristopher Hammond 6 years, 4 months ago

Good to hear from JLM again, even though we don't often agree. A capitalist can certainly appreciate that the illegal drug trade is the purest form of capitalism there is: supply and demand totally unregulated, untaxed, and shaped only by the forces of the market. There are no tobacco or whiskey cartels. The Mexican drug cartels do their evil NOT because drugs are bad, but because drugs are illegal. If drugs were legal, the cartels would be out of business as fast as bootleggers. Prohibition doesn't work.

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JLM 6 years, 4 months ago

The Mexican drug cartels do their evil work because they are evil. If marijuana were legalized, they would not all go to the seminary though I am absolutely certain some of them would. LOL

They would shift to another line of evil work.

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aichempty 6 years, 4 months ago

If marijuana was legalized, then kids would still be buying it on the street until they turned 21.

Next idea?

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NchronicPain 6 years, 4 months ago

and Aich.... maybe you fit in with this crowd???...

http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_11906171

Something to be proud of here Colorado!!!

S.A.F.E.R.

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NchronicPain 6 years, 4 months ago

Aich, luck is one thing I don't need. I am blessed beyond measure, my friend. And you have no clue who I am or how I conduct myself in society, so quit acting like you do. (i.e. comparing me to the coke-addicted floozy that you decided to hire). I am already successful, much to your shagrin I am sure. (not sure whay you are so hopefully that people fail.... must be fun living so negatively) I don't plan to sell marijuana, but if I did, everything would be paid for ahead of time, including the front sign, and Big Tobacco's meds couldn't touch the quailty I grow with a 10 foot pole. And you will order yours over the internet????(which supports my theory that you rarely leave this valley, unfortunately for you & us) and What?!!! You will buy some of this life-destroying, motivation-killing drug!!!??? That makes no sense either. And it's unfortunate that you have had the experiences you have had with your employees? Why did you intially hire these people? Maybe your skills at hiring and your close-minded perspective has cost you the 10's of thousands of dollars you lost in worthless wages paid?? or maybe you need to learn how to hire people with true work ethic. I handle well over a million dollars worth of Inventory and I'm sure I could crunch numbers faster than your pea-brain ever will. I see how you are, I give you completely unbiased articles to read, that support a great deal of what you say, but you won't even give them the time of day because, again, you have made some irrational judgement of TIME mag. Man, it is pointless arguing with such a confused and self-contradicted person. The reason you make no sense is because your so closed off, do us all a favor and get out in the world and see what's goin on before you spew your unethical judgements and skewed viewpoints.

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NchronicPain 6 years, 4 months ago

By the way Aich, we hire employees, at my job, that have to take a pre-employment drug screen. I'd say that these "clean" people have the exact same habits of a someone that has been stereotypically labeled a "stoner" (or whatever clever name you come up with). Some of these "drug-free" people showed up late, were lazy on the job, talked about alcohol all the time, were forgetful & worthless on the job, etc. Also, in the past, I worked for a wonderful company that did not bother to drug-screen, they trusted the managers on duty to be attentive to every employee, not just the ones with the stereotypical "look" to them (like the one you, Aich, use to judge the world with). The problem, Aich, is not the marijuana use, or even the drugs or alcohol at all.... the problem (which you deny to accept) is the human nature within the majority of the world. We need better parents & better families, we need to be more supportive of each other and not be so quick to judge, we need people who love each other not people that hate. Your ideas above, Aich, will fizzle out as quickly as your unmotivated, lost employees.... and your attitude will drive you to depression. Openess is the key to life, love and happiness. I hope you don't get too sick and tired of spending your days in a cynical, lonely and quite exsistence, but I'm sure you will.

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aichempty 6 years, 4 months ago

Cronie and playa,

I'm going to say one more time; some people can handle recreational drugs with no problem. Those are not the people who cause the problems.

Cronie, you are right about human nature and laziness. So how does legalizing a demotivating addictive substance help them or anybody else?

Kids in school don't need any more obstacles to help hold them back. They've got enough.

I heard a song last night; "Lincoln Freed the Slaves, and Ganga (sp?) Took Them Back."

This country wasn't made great by people who slipped along on minimum effort, without integrity, and addled by booze and drugs. Unfortunately, those people are a pure drag on the ones who are productive, and we'll never be as great or as free as we could be if people treated each other with love, compassion, responsibility and respect. There's always somebody willing to sneak and steal and hold the rest of us down.

So, Cronie, maybe YOU can use pot and have no problems, but why would you think the same situation would apply to anybody else?

I suppose there are people who would be depressed or manic or whatever if they didn't self-medicate, and maybe some of them are better off using pot than doing nothing at all. I just don't think you're going to find many of them discovering the cure for cancer, walking on Mars or solving the energy crisis.

But, I still go back to my original thought, which is that unmotivated stoners will go first, followed by unmotivated non-stoners, and pricing people out of our luxury market works just as well as keeping them on "their own side of town" with drug-induced poverty. I don't know anybody who succeeded in my career fields (plural), aviation and engineering, who had substance abuse problems. I know guys who tank up on beer every night and do simple jobs for chump change, but they could do a lot better for themselves and their families if they applied their energy to gaining skills instead of spending $10 a day on Foster's.

Here's the thing. If you have to work 40 hours a week anyway, why settle for some menial job anyone can do and take home 1/2 to 1/3 as much money as the people who work to get ahead? Seems to me, it's just easier to stay drunk or stoned than to qualify for a better job. So why make it easier?

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bestfreeheel 6 years, 4 months ago

For all you naysayers about pot and its ills, here's a quote from one of the most brilliant minds this country has ever known.

"Some of my finest hours have been spent on my back veranda, smoking hemp and observing as far as my eye can see." -Thomas Jefferson

And Duke, don't believe everything you read, especially from the local press. The Jensen's are NOT, I repeat, NOT DRUG DEALERS. They make enough money, they do not need to sell drugs. You don't have your facts straight, and if think the Pilot is the be all/end all of information in the valley, you're sorely mistaken. The Pilot got their information from the cops, the cops use any means necessary (including illegal means) to convict people. The cops inflated the numbers! Stop slandering the Jensen's, you don't have the right information to do so. Do yourself a favor and go to the court proceedings, let the case work itself out, then make your rash judgments. Don't go on some newspaper article from the daily tourist rag.

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jk 6 years, 4 months ago

Aich, So according to your philosophy stated earlier, motivated stoners will finish where??

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oldskoolstmbt 6 years, 4 months ago

aich~ it seems to me you usually stand behind the words SOME...people can handle....yet mostly generalize ANYONE who smokes,drinks,etc...are losers...i get confused by some of your posts...i'm guessing your about 73?just a random thought...no altercations involved

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aichempty 6 years, 4 months ago

jk,

Aich, So according to your philosophy stated earlier, motivated stoners will finish where??

Somewhere below the ones who stayed sober and studied or improved their skills.

Oldskool,

You're way off. I'm gainfully employed doing something that takes bona-fide educational and occupational credentials specific to the duties assigned. I help my employers wade through literally millions of possible solutions to find the ones that make sense. The thing I find most often is that people who need help making decisions don't know (1) how to do it scientifically or (2) what the criteria for "success" should be. I get questions analogous to, "If I have four cows and nine sheep, how many ducks can I have?" They don't understand that in order to trade one thing off against another, there has to be a relationship among them.

There was a case many years ago when the EA-6B Prowler electronic warfare aircraft was first deployed at a cost of $60,000,000 each (in 1972 era dollars). A young Marine pilot took a single CONTAC capsule for ear/nasal congestion, and ended up crashing on the deck of an aircraft carrier during a landing attempt. It's an extreme example, but the fact is that people who alter their mood and physical ability to take in information and make responsible decisions and take appropriate actions by consuming pharmaceuticals experience side effects they may never comprehend. In some cases, drugs like amphetamines given to pilots can enhance their performance on long missions, but this is closely monitored and done under a physician's supervision.

The insidious nature of physiological effects of certain drugs and physical conditions makes them impossible for the subject to perceive until something radical happens; like stopping the drug or correcting the physical condition. Anger and irritability can be signs of heart disease. Fatigue and lack of motivation can be signs of decreased lung function. Both types of disease can come on slowly and the patient may attribute the symptoms to aging or other factors, but when the conditions are treated and resolved, the difference can be felt. People say, "Wow! I never realized what was happening to me until I started to feel better."

Moderate, appropriate and controlled used of pharmaceuticals can enhance a person's life. It's better to treat high blood pressure than to stroke out, right? It's better to be pain free and functional than in pain and unable to function, but best of all is pain free and drug free and functioning at 100%. The fact that some people think pot is not as bad as other alternatives doesn't make it good for anybody. Abuse is the problem, and some will abuse. So why punish everybody? Why not? Life isn't fair, so get over it. How does feeling high improve our society and civilization? If it was natural to feel high, wouldn't we have already evolved to feel high without drugs?

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aichempty 6 years, 4 months ago

bestfree,

And if Thomas Jefferson started a violent revolution against a lawful government, owned slaves and had children with a slave girl, would you want us all to do those things too?

I guess my position on the whole thing is that I don't buy it, don't use it, never have, and don't feel deprived by any of those conditions.

We're not talking about freedom to come and go, freedom from fear, freedom from crime or anything else of consequence to society. It's only a stupid weed that makes some people feel high when they smoke it. If people want to complicate their lives with substance abuse and risk involvement with the cops, that's their problem, not mine.

But why do people think it's worth it? Can the answer be anything other than a psychological need and physiological addiction to something that's not necessary to maintain life or procreate? No, I'm pretty sure that evolution has endowed marijuana with the property of being able to intoxicate humans as a survival strategy. Just like marigolds excrete pyrethrins to deter nematodes, marijuana produces THC to obtain intelligent (sic) care-givers who will sacrifice their own time, money and freedom to cultivate a plant. Wow. Wouldn't Darwin be proud?

So tell me. Did Sir Isaac Newton, Galileo, Van Loewenhoek, Salk, Sabin, Einstein, Pasteur, Bell, the Wright Brothers, Albert Nobel, Tesla, Marconi, Edison, Ford or any others who made giant contributions to the advancement of knowledge, science and civilization attribute their achievements to the benefits of smoking hemp? Will it get a comet named after me? Or a new species? Or a classic hit song? Maybe I'll write Reggae music and sell it on iTunes and Napster. Wouldn't that be ironic.

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sickofitall 6 years, 4 months ago

Christ all mighty, same sheet different day. Either you legalize it and take away the black market or deal with the black market. Its only been going on since 1965ish... Heres a challenge, seal our borders and sieze all illegal substances entering the country or being produced within. Good night and good luck!

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NchronicPain 6 years, 4 months ago

OMG, Aich, you have completeley lost it. Just wait. The organic revolution will unfold before your eyes and you'll see.

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aichempty 6 years, 4 months ago

Cronie,

I'm all for the Organic Revolution.

I just don't understand why that includes a mandate to go around ####ed up on intoxicating substances when there's no medical need.

ScienceDaily (Dec. 20, 1999) - Researchers at UCLA's Jonsson Cancer Center are reporting, for the first time, that smoking marijuana may increase the risk of head and neck cancers

Results of an epidemiological study of more than 340 people are outlined in an article published in today's (Dec. 17) edition of the peer-reviewed journal Cancer Epidemiology Biomarker and Prevention.

Previous laboratory and clinical studies have indicated that marijuana use may be related to molecular alterations in the respiratory tract, changes that may lead to cancer. This is the first study to examine whether smoking marijuana increases risk of head and neck cancers, said Dr. Zuo-Feng Zhang of UCLA's Jonsson Cancer Center, a professor in the Department of Epidemiology in the UCLA School of Public Health and director of the cancer epidemiology training program at UCLA.

"Most people don't think about marijuana in relationship to cancer," said Zhang, lead author of the journal article. "The carcinogens in marijuana are much stronger than those in tobacco. The big message here is that marijuana, like tobacco, can cause cancer."

Marijuana Worsens COPD Symptoms In Current Cigarette Smokers (May 23, 2007) - Marijuana worsens breathing problems in current smokers with chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD), according to a new study. The study found that among people 40 and older, smokers were ... > read more Sexual Activity and Marijuana Use Associated with HPV-Positive Head and Neck Cancer, Study Shows (Mar. 13, 2008) - Researchers have teased out two distinct sets of risk factors for head and neck cancers, suggesting that there are two completely different kinds of the disease. Sex practices and lifestyle are ... >

Happy Googling!

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NchronicPain 6 years, 4 months ago

Aich, I'm glad you figured out how to google, now, don't follow in the footsteps of your friends in WW2 that reside in Washington, DC and only seek out the negative scientific reports. Because for every study that you find like the one above, you will find one that has completely opposite results. Why is this? Because political propaganda and interests groups CREATE the results of these studies like the one above. Of course the lungs of a cigarette smoker gets worse over time. And for all the cancers that marijuana is supposedly causing, you will find research supporting it's ability to treat cancer. So your stats don't scare me. I don't trust ANYTHING I read in the news, not even scientific studies. Take a few years of statistics courses in college and you'll see how easily these results are manipulated to portray the close-minded views of the scientist's writing the report. Go ahead and start reading how many of the preservatives, pesticides, and chemicals (that are in the food, air and water we all intake daily) are linked to causing cancer.... Your study above proves nothing. Everything causes cancer, we all are bound to get in some shape or form.

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NchronicPain 6 years, 4 months ago

Aich, we agree on one thing.... there is no need "to go around ####ed up on intoxicating substances when there is no medical need"..... I agree. Most doctor's, with your mentality towards marijuana, would rather somebody like me take a handful of intoxicating pills every morning, noon and night to treat all my problems. This is where the problem lies, in regards to "medical" marijuana. Now, being that people can freely stagger around on alcohol (which impairs people much quicker and much more dangerously than marijuana ever does) makes your point seem pointless. We already allow people "to go around ####ed up on intoxicating" alcohol and prescribed pharmacueticals....and they do... every day and night. Adding marijuana will only help deter some of these people from intoxicating themselves on harder and more dangerous substances....like alcohol and prescribed pharms.... The Organic Revolution does not neccesarily include medical marijuana, but if we are striving for healthy, green-oriented lifestyles and communities, we need not promote alcohol all over our small town and teach our doctors to seek out natural remedys.

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aichempty 6 years, 4 months ago

Cronie,

So there. We agree.

By the way, I happen to have taken two years worth of graduate level courses in statistics; Theory of Statics for a whole year, and data analysis for a second year. I am well aware of how statistics are manipulated and misused.

Marijuana has been shown to reduce tumor growth rates for certain tumors like colon cancer. It has also been associated with higher rates for testicular and other cancers. Why? Because organs with specific THC receptors (like the testicles) are more prone to suffer toxic effects while others can show beneficial effects. In a pharmaceutical research context, I think you would only find someone willing to use marijuana to treat colon cancer where the risk of contracting testicular cancer was overshadowed by certain death from colon cancer.

In times past, syphillis was treated with arsenic before penicillin became available. The toxic effects of penicillin for non-allergic patients are nil, while arsenic will kill ya.

My wife and I kid all the time about the pharmaceutical ads on TV, adding to the warnings that, "In rare cases, your #### can fall off."

So, while you are correct on the broad statement that for every study showing marijuana causes cancer, there's a study to show it cures cancer, I think you will find that the types of cancer are differentiated and that both assertions are true. Another example is that marijuana has not been shown to cause lung cancer, but it has been associated in head and neck cancers. It all has to do with the types of cells and the THC receptors specific to those cells. So, you have to read past the headlines and take the whole thing in.

Another example is plant-derived estrogen replacement versus that extracted from mares' urine. The plant derived stuff is safer, cancer wise, so that's a point for you. I agree that intake of nutritional substances that metabolize into precursors for naturally occurring substances in the body are superior to pure chemical compounds derived synthetically.

Unfortunately, given the risks associated with marijuana compared to the benefits (depending on which cancer you happen to have), I think you're going to find that drugs which are effective against colon cancer without raising the risk of testicular (and other) cancers are better alternatives, organic or not. Nightshade and oleander are certainly natural, organic substances which are also toxic. And then we have deadly mushrooms. Glomming onto pot as a cure-all just doesn't hold up scientifically, but in your case, I guess the risk of testicular cancer is minimal -- unless you have sons and smoked marijuana while they were developing. You might want to read up on it if that's the case.

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NchronicPain 6 years, 4 months ago

Thank you, Aich, at least now I know that you have taken the time to approach all aspects of this issue. That eases my mind about you and helps me to understand you more. But, now that I know you know all this, I would've expected more of a well-rounded response in your posts. I guess it shocks me slightly, that you give it the benefit of the doubt. But, kudos to you. Look into the fact that in the 1970's the US Government was totally aware that when THC was injected directly into the tumors of Giloma brain cancer patients, the tumors shrank, to the point of remission. I am aware there are side-effects to my medicine of choice, but as you jest at the pharmacuetical commercials, there are people all over the planet who think that the pharmaceutical their beloved Dr has prescribed them is their only and best option. In many cases, it's not. There are many many nature remedies for ailments, but since the AMA and APA are in the pockets of lobbyists, these natural remedies have been forgotten about, not taken seriously and not been given the due chance to be researched properly. But, the APA is on board with the benefits of medical marijuana, and the AMA is slowly following suit.

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aichempty 6 years, 4 months ago

Cronie,

You see, I wonder if all these alleged marijuana miracle cures would be so well publicized if not for a significant pro-pot lobby that also touts the benefits while minimizing the potential harm.

I think that if the recent study on THC and testicular cancer gets out, and a few well-known folks develop it, the appeal to adolescents may take a dive. Lung cancer from tobacco takes a long time to kick in, but testicular cancer is thought to actually originate in the womb, but not develop until puberty when testosterone levels rise. If THC is shown to increase the incidence of the more aggressive variety of the disease, Steamboat might turn into an interesting cluster among caucasian males.

The seminoma variety can be detected as a pea-sized hard spot on the testicle. I'm not sure about the non-seminoma kind, but I'll bet a lot of people will be googling it up, huh?

Have ball, fellas, while you can.

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NchronicPain 6 years, 4 months ago

Aich, this study that you love to keep bringing up, states very clearly at the conclusion of it, that further studies need to be done to comfirm its results. It may have been completely coincidental that these aggressive types of testicular cancer formed in the patients that were heavy users of marijuana, and the scientists conducting the study openly admit this. These studies only prove theorys. I am not convinced. And once again, your logic is so far from reality in regards to way people think and act as a whole. Do you really think that teens who are about to smoke some weed will hurry over to their computers and Google the risks first??? Have you been on your 3 Martini lunch again, Aich? This is a funny way of thinking you have developed.

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NchronicPain 6 years, 4 months ago

Hey Pilot.......

It's March 18th, what happened in court for these folks yesterday?

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aichempty 6 years, 4 months ago

Cronie,

And, so all the pro-pot studies you've cited don't need further study? Like, for harmful side-effects?

I'm only pointing out that you are quick to believe the ones that support your own preconceptions and deny the rest.

I'm not saying that pot doesn't do some of the good things you claim, only that it also appears to do bad things that nobody mentions when talking about the good things. Again, this is why drugs have to pass a test for efficacy as well as safety; sometimes it's worth the risk in order to obtain the benefit, but people DO need to be aware of both sides and make their own decisions.

Tell me, Clarice, have you ever discovered a lump in your breast and had your heart jump into your throat as the elevator-falling feeling kicked in? That's what it's like to find a lump on your testicle, too. If you thought marijuana aided the development of breast cancer, would you be so quick to rave about its benefits?

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aichempty 6 years, 4 months ago

Pharmaceutical companies pass the most stringent test of all; the insurance industry. No matter what the FDA or anyone else says about it, no drug goes on the market without backing by an insurance company that has carefully weighed all the risks. This is one of the reasons that drug costs are so high, because attorneys are lined up waiting to file lawsuits for people "injured" by drugs.

Nobody has tried to get insurance for marketing pot yet. Do you want to be the guy who gets sued for selling legal pot to adults because it appeals to kids and kids get their hands on it? This was the "Joe Camel" effect that cost the cigarette companies hundreds of millions, because the character was cartoonish and was found to appeal to children.

The alcoholic beverage industry somehow survives despite the harmful nature of its products, and I guess we can thank the civil court system for that. In any case, marijuana would be a brand new ball game for the courts, and you KNOW there would be pot-smoking shysters willing to sue pot producers to make a fast buck.

I am sure that regulators get bribed to let stuff get on the market. It's inherent in our system. That's why the insurance industry has the final say on what gets marketed. Pretty neat, huh? Airliine pilots need 2000 hours of flight time before being hired for the same reason. Inusrance requirements.

So, I guess legalization of pot would be the first step, but then having it be affordable after being taxed and insured for liability would probably drive the market back to the illegal distribution and trafficking we see now. You gotta remember, moonshining was big business even after prohibition ended because of the government putting taxes on booze and regulating it.

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jk 6 years, 4 months ago

Do the pharmeceuticals all pass that same stringent testing Aich, or do these trillion dollar companies have some preferential treatment?

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NchronicPain 6 years, 4 months ago

Aich wrote: "And, so all the pro-pot studies you've cited don't need further study? Like, for harmful side-effects?

I'm only pointing out that you are quick to believe the ones that support your own preconceptions and deny the rest."

I am not denying anything. I read ALL the studies with a grain of salt. Not just the ones with a warning. I, especially, read the ones with negative results, and most of the time they don't sit well with me. I see loopholes and weird conclusions. In most of the studies I read about the benefits of marijuana, I see a more truthful, well-rounded approach to the study. I can see scientists that hold a similar opinion as yourself saying something to the effect of, "I think I will try to discredit the medical marijuana idea....... I'm gona prove it's wrong!" No matter what the truth is. And your logic in regards to pharmaceuticals is WAY off. You think they are safe?? HA We are no more safe taking pharmaceuticals than the World Trade Center was on 9/11.... keep counting on our Big Money-run Government to keep you safe, I'll keep second-guessing EVERYTHING they do and feel much better about myself and place I live.

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aichempty 6 years, 4 months ago

Crony,

Obama's administration has announced that medical marijuana users licensed by the states will not be prosecuted under federal law as long as the state laws are obeyed.

That seems like a victory for you and others who claim to need the stuff. Doesn't this solve YOUR problem?

I'll just cut to the chase. In my peer group, people who use pot and other addictive substances in excess, including alcohol, are pitied. We can see it. We know. We have our own community that thinks time, money and ambition are better spent on productive efforts. If your ambition is to ride the short bus through life, medicated with marijuana, that's your problem.

Oh, and your kids WILL see it and think it's okay. That's how families get screwed up, and why it sometimes takes people 30 years or more, if ever, to figure out that Mom and Dad were ####ed up, and we shouldn't have done things their way once we had a choice to be different.

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NchronicPain 6 years, 4 months ago

OK, Aich, Obama know the truth. I'm sure you voted for McCain right?(you sounds like you'd enjoy being a pea in the pod with ole McCain).

Whatever peer group you have dreamed up, makes no difference to me. I hope I never end up like you. And if it's a short bus I'm riding, I'm enjoying it, because I've rode my short bus to success my friend. Pitied? by who? My kids WILL see and be educated about it. I know of and am friends with many, many kids that see it every day. They are wonderful kids all the way down to 3rd graders. They are well-behaved, well-educated kids. The teens are respectful and actually look at the marijuana as a medicine, not a drug to be used recreationally. So, once again and not surprisingly, your theory proves false. And I am not sure if you just hinted that I spend my life ####ed up, but if that is what you were hinting at, you are all wrong. I know completely unmedicated people that live a life WAY more disjunctionally than I have have or ever will. I pity YOU. You will continue to surround yourself with "peers" that hold the same judgements, misguided viewpoints and disgusting theorys. As you get more decrepid and the grey fades all the way to your soul, you will have missed out on the things in life that truly give someone a personality: Empathy. Love. Compassion.

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aichempty 6 years, 4 months ago

Playa,

Wow. Did you just agree with me a little bit?

Nchronic personalizes this debate every time she posts. She is possibly a notable exception to the stereotype, and if so, good for her. I just can't stop thinking about the people I've seen going around screwed up on substance abuse and barely getting by.

In my last job, everyone was subject to random drug testing. Was this a burden? Hardly. None of the seasoned professionals were users anyway, so it made no difference. They mainly had to randomly test us so that the young folks didn't have a case for discrimination, capische?

When they'd catch a few people now and then, it almost always turned out to be a mid-level blue collar ring leader and some very young folks who succumbed to peer pressure. The folks who were caught lost security clearances, their jobs, and had to go do something else, period.

The other thing is that when we'd notice somebody missing, it was rarely a surprise. Whether it was their personality or the drug abuse, they stood out in obvious ways. I hate to say it, but Richard Nixon's shifty eyes are a perfect example of the way a lot of these folks would act. Hushed conversations, humped shoulders and shifty eyes, and returning a moment of eye contact with a hastily averted gaze instead of a smile made them obvious. So, they were paranoid, right? Was it fear of being caught that made them paranoid, or was it the drugs?

The process of discovery and creation requires imaginative, innovative minds. Many times we puzzle over solutions to problems all day long, and then wake up with a new idea the next day. Being able to relax and go to sleep is a big part of it, but so is waking up with a clear head the next day. Apparently, pot is good for poetry. It may be good for music composition. It doesn't seem to be good for a lot of other things, like engineering design. Gotta tell ya, when I see Asian and Indian kids coming out of college at the top of their classes, and taking the hard engineering jobs, I've got to wonder why the caucasian kids can't compete. Is it because of the difference in time spent "partying" versus studying, and is it because of family and parental attitudes?

(continued)

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aichempty 6 years, 4 months ago

When we, as a culture, took a radical left turn in the 1960s, it freed a lot of people from the need to be what used to be called respectable. I just heard that 40% of the live births in 2008 were to single mothers. Can anyone possibly believe that the breakdown of the family doesn't parallel substance abuse and a descent into poverty? Look around the rest of the country right now. Single minority women are in the forefront of the foreclosure crisis. How hard is it to link their individual circumstances back to a culture that promotes substance abuse? It ain't hard. Absent, financially immune fathers (no money on the books, so no money for child support), a legal system that requires you to be "rich" to obtain help from a lawyer, and a distrust of the justice system have put millions of single women into single-parent homes, struggling to get by on marginal educations in areas with low-paying, insecure jobs.

When we find teenage girls urinating on the sidewalk outside a house filled with marijuana, doesn't that tell you something about a fundamental shift in attitudes?

It's OKAY to be a drugged-out slut in today's society! They don't call it that anymore, but that's what it is.

So, the young girls who might have been doctors, engineers, nurses, teachers and bankers will end up with kids, in single homes, struggling to get by, because when they were on the cusp of adulthood, peer pressure and availability of recreational drugs let them go down a road that would not have been available, and certainly not acceptable, fifty years ago.

The weak links will fail. People who might have had decent lives in a drug-free culture will suffer. The strong will survive and even prosper in spite of drug abuse, and what does this situation do? Why, it perpetuates the rich-vs-poor society that the Civil Rights and Womens Rights movements sought to stamp out.

So, I just can't understand why any person with a working frontal brain would want to promote the use of marijuana among teens and young adults when some significant proportion of them is going to suffer lifelong detrimental effects as a result.

"Me first," is the answer. "What I want," is the answer. "Screw the rest," is the answer

I've seen society go down hill in my own lifetime. The advances in rights and liberties made during the 50s, 60s and 70s are being squandered for the sake of getting high. What a big ####### waste.

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trump_suit 6 years, 4 months ago

What can we say Aich. I for one disagree with you. Nuff Said.

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aichempty 6 years, 4 months ago

Trump,

Well, I think a lot of you can take heart in the fact that we're going to have to engage in direct military action across the Mexican border and get the National Guard involved, under the authority of the state governors who can call the Guard out for law enforcement operations, in interdicting Mexican drug operations going on inside our borders.

Once the flow of Mexican weed slows down, the local growers and dealers will prosper as long as they can keep the little girls from pi$$ing on the sidewalk while ACET is driving by.

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aichempty 6 years, 4 months ago

Crony,

It runs all through your posts, but when you used the word "floozy" that gave it away. Also, it's easy to tell that you were spoiled by your father, and that's rare for men.

Also, men have chronic pain too, but don't usually identify themselves by it.

See, this is what I've been trying to tell you. People reveal details about themselves which are obvious to others that know what to look for. It's a matter of experience and longevity. For example, my own father used to deal with people who claimed to be injured on the job. If he walked into the ER or another acute treatment facility and saw the alleged victim smiling, he knew they were faking. People who are in pain don't grin. Malingerers do. That's just how human nature works.

So, YOU may think that pot use has no negative effects upon you, but chances are that your mannerisms and behavior would tip you off as a pot user to people with the right kind of experience.

Mark Fuhrman, the cop who got in trouble for making racist comments around the O J Simpson trial, made a statement to the effect that the first two or three things out of certain peoples' mouths would be a lie when questioned by the police. He based that statement upon his experience in dealing with people he contacted in his official duties as a cop.

There are several distinct mannerisms I look for when judging a person's truthfulness, and when judging someone's reaction to a statement. If you shock or surprise someone with something you say to them, they will almost always take a short little breath and back up about 1/4" to 1/2". It's the "flight" part of "fight or flight" when threatened. Redheads are easy, because they almost always flush when surprised. The true sociopaths are the tough ones, because they've had a lot of practice convincing people. Girls who practiced on Daddy are the hardest ones to pick out for a man; can't say how it works for women.

A lot of experienced cops learn to ignore anything said to them by a person suspected of a violation. They know they're usually hearing a lie.

Lawyers know that you never ask a question unless you already know the answer.

You are really confident because you live in a town where pot use is accepted, and you have a medical license for it that NOW protects you from both state and federal prosecution. Yet, you feel the need to add the fact that "Mexican weed sucks" and that local producers do better. You're a part of the culture and you really enjoy getting away with using pot legally. Some would say you have a great cover story to protect you as long as you don't get caught with more than you're allowed to have in your possession, which hypothetically could mean -- hypothetically could -- that as long as you traffick in small quantities and don't get caught actually selling to a cop, you're bullet proof.

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NchronicPain 6 years, 4 months ago

Hey Aich, where did you get that I am a female? Not that it matters.

Yes.... growers are already prospering, Aich, mexican weed sucks!

I'm done with this debate.

Anyone heard anything on the court date for the Jensen's?

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NchronicPain 6 years, 4 months ago

Aich, once again, I didn't have to read past the first sentence of your post to know that you're out in left field....

I am not a woman. So the conclusions you came to about the word "floozy" were, once again, based on your own, misguided assumptions. You are so off on your judgements and viewpoints that if I ever were to meet you I'd have to slap you silly. I don't even care what senseless ramblings are above..... I didn't even read them. Be sure to sit up straight and pour a strong cocktail before you cleverly type out another response. Somebody out there likes them, I'm sure.

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Duke_bets 6 years, 4 months ago

Aich and Nchron - It's fairly obvious who is winning this debate. Nchron's legal use status should be questioned when he/she is commenting on brands.

Nchron - I'm sure jk is familiar with your plight on good / bad weed, but you surely blew your case at the same time. And, proved Aich's point.

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NchronicPain 6 years, 4 months ago

Dukey, "commenting on brands"... what is that suppose to mean? And what case did I blow? And what points has Aich made?, besides a bunch of nonsense. My only point in all this is:

Marijuana has medicinal value. (Aich even agreed) And if someone is precribed it, they should respect the law that is written.

Aich and all her ridiculous ramblings made no point. I would like to see what the response would be to Aich's ramblings in a real, public forum that people actually read. I didn't see too many people chiming in with her posts and saying, "Right on" besides you Dukey.... you probably fit right in Aich's peapod.

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aichempty 6 years, 4 months ago

Slap me silly? Wow. You sound like a real man alright. If you can't get a woman to agree with you, it's okay to hit her? Why don't you try that with somebody who's been to boot camp and see how it works out for you? Does pot work for acute pain also?

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Duke_bets 6 years, 4 months ago

best - give it a rest...........I've been commenting on this article. 8 pounds, 54 plants. Enough said.

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oldskoolstmbt 6 years, 4 months ago

aich...acet were not the one's to drive by (girls pissing on the sidewalk)...sspd...you give credit way too often to those undeserving....it's going to be ok...no one is going to force feed you any 'wacky weed'...at least i hope not ...and those that do enjoy it and can handle it...well, you will probably will never know the difference:)..now go and enjoy that cognac..

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bestfreeheel 6 years, 4 months ago

Nchron, I talked to Marie this weekend. Hopefully the defense is airtight and the cops are proven to be fools. They found some trash bags full of dead stalks, the leaves and stems that are not the flowering bud that is used for medicinal purposes, and they counted that as part of the "54 marijuana plants" that they found in the house. Idiots! She's kept these stalks for years, and they did gather.

Anybody who knows what medicinal (and for that matter, recreational) marijuana is all about, you know that the leaves and stems are useless. As I've said earlier in this post, the Jensen's ARE NOT DRUG DEALERS! The reason Marie kept all those dead leaves and stems is because she feared her neighbors would snoop in her trash and get the law to search her house, which is an egregious assault on privacy. I guarantee you that there was just a couple of ounces that was actually viable for the drug market in that house, well within Colorado law concerning amounts that can be possessed by persons who are allowed to have medical marijuana. The cops are inflating the numbers to make the Jensens look like drug dealers, using the media as judge and jury, when in fact they are not. Not one gram of the pot that was grown in that house was sold on the black market.

And Duke, get your f###### facts straight! You're getting your information from the newspaper, correct? Have you read the police report? Have you talked to Garrett Wiggins (who searched the house himself) about the case? Have you spoken with Kris Hammond about the case? Do you even know David and Marie Jensen? Coming on to a public newspaper blog and yelling out DRUG DEALERS, PUT 'EM AWAY! is irresponisble at best, civilly criminal at worst. And I never implied that the Pilot was slandering the Jensens. They did their reporting, and they assume that the Jensens are innocent until proven guilty. YOU, my friend, are slandering the Jensens on this public newspaper blog. STOP IT! The Jensens will have a public trial and be acquitted of these baseless charges. Go to the trial, watch the court proceedings, then make your hasty judgments.

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bestfreeheel 6 years, 4 months ago

And aich, Ask any doctor, surgeon, medical professional, they'll all tell you the same thing...Marijuana is far less harmful than alcohol. Some facts: A.)1.) Alcohol is a drug, and B.)2.) Alcohol kills more people than crack, cocaine, heroin, and prescription drugs combined each year. You'd be very hard-pressed to find fatalities that occured as a direct result of using marijuana. Sure, you could argue that some car crashes where people died were a result of someone high on pot, but you'd find that not only were they high on pot, they were drunk or on other drugs as well, in almost every instance.

My theory is that alcohol keeps people from questioning their surroundings by keeping them docile and ignorant, while marijuana can have a profound effect on the mind and make one actually question what's going on in their day-to-day lives. You probably wouldn't know, as I can plainly tell that you've probably never tried marijuana (you might benefit, really!). I agree with you that drug abuse is wrong and people who drink too much or smoke too much can be a drain on society. But the fact is that marijuana is less harmful on the body than alcohol, marijuana is a proven medicine, and in most instances, marijuana is better for the mind than alcohol.

That, and the booze industry has too much clout in the halls of government. The Mighty Booze Industry would probably take a good-sized hit if marijuana were legalized and taxed, as people would realize, "Wow, we can relax and have a good time without all the baggage that comes with alcohol (hangovers, DUIs, battered acquaintances)!" Just a thought for you to kick around, aich...

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NchronicPain 6 years, 4 months ago

Aich, well ya fooled me, I would've bet my life that you were a crotchedy old man.... judging from your posts and your attitude, you fooled me totally. Sorry, I wouldn't slap a decrepit old woman silly. Maybe just figuratively. LOL.

Thank you bestfreeheel, I sense from your posts that the truth is what flows off your keyboard. Your confidence in your words and the sensible truth behind your ideas comforts me. I kinda thought the idiots over at the local cop shop and the ACET office would botch up the whole case they may have had. Typical of ole Wiggy. I can just see it, "Looky here fellas!! I found a few garbage bags full of yard clippings, but I think it's medical marijuana. Book'em. These guys are goin down. Nice work." What a bunch of crap.

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NchronicPain 6 years, 4 months ago

Aich, First could you just answer my question instead of throwing your big bologna front my way?

Amen

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aichempty 6 years, 4 months ago

oldschool,

If everybody could handle it and all that, nobody would complain.

bestfree,

Nowhere have I advocated the use of alcohol. However, it has been shown that moderate use of alcohol on a daily basis appears to reduce the incidence of heart attacks due to the fact that the alcohol makes blood cells more "slippery" so they don't tend to clot. Medicinal effects of red wine are also well known.

You see, my claim is that marijuana and alcohol abuse are symptoms of underlying emotional distress or psychological illness which cannot be cured by smoking pot or drinking booze.

I was treated by a medical hypnotist for neck pain resulting from a severe whiplash injury. Part of the process is to learn how to relax to enter a trance. It's the same as transcendental meditation. It's the same as getting high so you can focus on a single point, but you don't have to use drugs to achieve the proper mental state (alpha waves, or some such stuff, which I have forgotten). It is possible to achieve a state in which your body feels like it is floating simply through relaxation and concentration. So, the effects you are describing for marijuana are a result of relaxation and maybe a bit of hypoxia. Deep-trance meditation is far more rewarding than any form of intoxication, and you would find that the enlightenment you achieve from pot pales in comparison to the depth of thought and memory which you can achieve by meditation. It's all about the "alpha state" and it can be carried over into sports to enhance performance, whereas you can be sure nobody is running the Tour de France smoking weed, eh?

You don't need chemical substances to access the deepest thoughts and memories. In fact, you're probably missing out on the really good stuff as a result of the intoxicating effects of the marijuana.

I used meditation and biofeedback to control my heart rate and blood pressure when I was in the ER for a disarticulated joint several months ago. The doctors were amazed. In fact, they way overdosed me on versed and morphine while resetting it, and it took me about three hours in the ER after the procedure before I could get up and leave. In fact, people have undergone major surgery without anesthetic, using hypnosis alone.

Read up on pop history, and you'll discover that the Beatles learned TM after pot and who-knows-what left them unfulfilled.

Crony,

Read back, friend. You're the one that imposed feminine pronouns on me. I merely commented on the fact that you stated a desire to slap a woman. Notice, please, that I have not disagreed with you anywhere. I've just stated a series of opposing points that you can't resist attacking. Sneaky, huh? I don't plan to change your mind or convince you of anything. I'm just watching how you react. It's like word association. The answer means far more than the challenge. Your desperation to defend pot reveals far more than any fact regarding your use of it.

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trump_suit 6 years, 4 months ago

Aich, in other posts and forums you have acknowledged your use of alchohol, so don't get all holier than thou about anyones choice of chemical relaxation.

  1. I have never esposed the use or abuse of illegal drugs. I just think that the overall costs to society would be lower if they were legal:
    http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/03/24/miron.legalization.drugs/index.html

  2. There will always be users and abusers, but the numbers have been remarkably consistent over the years.

  3. Drugs are NOT responsible for the failure of American families. They may play a role, but the substance in and of itself is not the main problem, you almost always find other factors playing a larger role.

  4. Americans will never accept widespread drug use or persosnal irresponsibility. The majority of us will continue to live our lives, love our families and keep our jobs regardless of the legal status of marajuana.

  5. The police have been known to exaggerate, and if bestfreeheel is correct, the orignal claims made against the Jensens may fall in this category. This does not affect the legalization arguement in any way, shape or form.

  6. Grandparents since the middle ages have been complaining about "these darn kids today" The buzz word for my grandfather was "gumption" Bottom line is that the older generation never thinks the newest one is worth much, but just like they did, teenagers grow up, pre-teens mature, and sooner or later they find themselves complaining about "Those darn kids these days" .....

  7. Raise your children to know better, help them when they stumble and love them above all else. Most of them turn out ok in the long run. Funny how this seems to be the case no matter what the legal status of Marjuana has been?

  8. Take off your drug blinders and review a little history. This country had the same problems with alchohol during prohibition, and as long as there are Americans that are willing to pay for drugs, there will be someone willing to supply them. Our society would be better off to spend our money on treatment and education than in continuing the failed war on drugs.

In closing, this policy would not be a cureall, and would come with its own share of problems and costs. Aren't we bearing those costs anyway? In my opinion, the war on drugs is a failed effort spawned by the same conservatives that believe teenagers will quit having sex if we tell them to wait until marriage.

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trump_suit 6 years, 4 months ago

PS. For those "Medical Marajuana" supporters..... Why is it that we study and control doses for almost every substance known to cure disease, but with marajuana you just smoke it with no control over dosage or strength. If marajuana truly has medical healing properties then they need to be isolated from the plant itself and perscribed in a controlled manner. Anything less is simply old fashioned herbology which may be effective but is rarely regarded and medicine.

This comment comes from my Mother-in-Law who holds her masters degree in Nursing with a specialty in geriatric medicine. It is hard to argue with her on this point.

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trump_suit 6 years, 4 months ago

So, Jason would you feel the same way if it was your neighbor's dog/horse/cow/child in your way? Why is it that cyclists are fair game for that Chevy of yours?

Cyclists should ALWAYS be aware of their surroundings and have a responsibility to ride single file and in a safe manner. Dodging thru traffic and riding in packs do not fulfill these requirements.

Motorists have the responsibility to manuever their 2000Lb vehicle thru city/county roads in a such a fashion that it NEVER comes in contact with anything. Cyclists included.

Is it so hard to share the road ????? Try a smile and a wave and maybe your day will be brighter too.

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NchronicPain 6 years, 4 months ago

Aich, I thought you were a man the whole time... an old one. And no, if YOU read back, you were the one that first referred to me as "her." I just did it right back, because I wanted you to see how foolish it is. And oh so sneaky you are NOT. I was doing the exact same thing back to you. And, of course I am going to defend medical marijuana, I am an activist and a consultant regarding it. Are you implying that I am just simply an addict again?? Come on. I tried all other methods. And you are knowledgable about alot of stuff. Random facts with no real basis behind them. Just your opinion. The Beatles compared their hypnosis to medical marijuana?? and they used marijuana for a medicinal purpose back in the day I guess?? Come on, give me some real info to work with. You do nothing but frustrate me with your pointless crap.

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NchronicPain 6 years, 4 months ago

Trump_suit says, "PS. For those "Medical Marajuana" supporters:.. Why is it that we study and control doses for almost every substance known to cure disease, but with marajuana you just smoke it with no control over dosage or strength. If marajuana truly has medical healing properties then they need to be isolated from the plant itself and perscribed in a controlled manner. Anything less is simply old fashioned herbology which may be effective but is rarely regarded and medicine."

You are correct. I think in the near future it will be regulated and treated with the same standards as other medicines. Due to the effect of Harry Aslinger and his Reefer Madness lies, it took extraordinary action to get the research done that led to the first passing of the Medical Marijuana law in California. Until now, the Feds have stayed on board with the conservative approach and this has made life difficult for people who find relief in medical mj. In Holland, which is the first country to be doing this, there is government grown and regulated mj. It is dispensed through a pharmacy and is grown completely clean and free of any chemicals. The medicine is always the same and holds a consistent, medicinal potency. People there can smoke it. But, in my opinion, smoking has little medicinal value. I find MUCH better relief when it is injested via a medicinal tincture or inhaled vapors.... both methods are completely risk free. No side-effects that I can feel..... only great effects. But, trump, we stand in agreement. This "unregulated" factor makes it difficult to truly compare it to conventional, Big-money-made, Big Pharma medicines.

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jk 6 years, 4 months ago

Aich, First could you just answer my question instead of throwing your big bologna front my way? Second according to your assessment above then your time spent in your TM trance is pretty worthless. I guess at least the polio vaccine will keep us out of our wheelchairs so we can do something productive 24/7. Now if we can only figure out that darn need for sleep maybe we could get something done around here??

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aichempty 6 years, 4 months ago

trump,

I take a drink now and again, friend. I don't get drunk. I don't drink every day; far from it. I also don't advocate the use of alcohol by anyone else. It's not either alcohol, or pot, or both or neither. It's how you use them that matters. Abuse is abuse.

Cronie,

I assumed you were female because you were being, uh, shrill. That's the only word I can think of. Oh, and is our Lord and Savior Barack Obama old? Just looking for a point of reference -- but honestly, I don't care what you think of me.

People deal with conflict by stereotyping their antagonists, and that's the interesting part. It's so funny; kids grow up and discover sex and think they know everything about it, but their parents' generation has already done it at least a thousand times, probably more in a lot of cases, by the time their kids hit puberty. Shucks, 100 times a year is just sliding along in my experience. And it's the same way about drugs, alcohol, adultery, cheating on taxes, beating a speeding ticket, knowing people who have suffered from substance abuse, and scores of other things. A person in their 40s who has done more than sit in the same town doing the same job for 20 years has accumulated a wealth of experience and knowledge that younger people don't appreciate BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE ENOUGH EXPERIENCE TO APPRECIATE IT!

The Beatles admitted they pretty much filmed "HELP" while being continuously high on wacky weed. I heard it from Paul McCartney's own lips. They also were implicated in the use of LSD, but I don't know they ever openly admitted it. John Lennon was once barred entry to the country because of a marijuana conviction in the United States. So, it's well-known that the Beatles went to India and studied with the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi in the midst of their drug experimentation phase and learned the secrets of Transcendental Meditation (self hypnosis in clinical terms). George Harrison went off the deep end with the Hare Krishnas, John Lennon stayed off the deep end for a while but sorta made it back before he died, Richard Starkey (Ringo) is still drifting around out there somewhere and Paul McCartney was knighted and wrote symphonies. Much of the music on Sergeant Pepper, Magical Mystery Tour and the White Album shows the direct influence of "mind expansion" and TM. They are, by all accounts and by all musical measures of success, the most successful rock 'n' roll group in history. But, they had conflicts, broke up, and never accomplished anything that made a tangible difference in the lives of ordinary people (like Jonas Salk did with the polio vaccine). So who's to say they wouldn't have been more successful if they had not stayed stoned during their most creative years?

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jk 6 years, 4 months ago

Aich, So have you ever tapped your toe while whistling some song that brought back a good memory? Isn't that tangible?? It makes a difference in my ordinary life almost every day.

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aichempty 6 years, 4 months ago

jk,

And herein lies the rub. It only has value if you're willing to pay for it. Most kids these days think that music should be free, paid for by "somebody else." If it won't sell beans or Coke or Hondas, it's going to disappear soon.

Tapping your toe to a tune has exactly the same value as an unanswered prayer. Neither one is going to pay the electric bill, is it?

Everybody is looking for a coping mechanism. Listening to a tune or smoking pot takes you away from the conficts in your head, but doesn't solve any of them. What if you could put those conficts aside, not obsess about them, and do something useful and productive to help yourself instead? Wouldn't that be better than simply escaping for a few minutes?

It's a lot easier to stand still and do something to distract yourself than to make a change and grow. That may be okay for somebody 65 or 70, but for someone 15 or 20? That's where the waste comes in, and relying on substances that make you high to pass the time are going to leave you stuck in a rut one day when you wake up at 40 or 50 and realize you're pi$$ed your life away doing nothing that makes a difference.

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aichempty 6 years, 4 months ago

jk,

Of course. I do that kind of thing all the time. It happens while I'm doing something else simultaneously, usually useful and productive, or when driving.

The body, of course, needs sleep. TM is an excellent precursor to sleep, and when done in the evening after retiring, can be used to set the mind working during sleep so as to arise with the solutions. Fatigue is an excellent example of a counter-productive factor analogous to drug or alcohol abuse which impairs performance.

Okay, look, you Bozos (and I say this lovingly), it's so obvious that you are trying to justify pot use to yourself as something "good" or at least "harmless." It's neither when done chronically and habitually. People condition themselves to turn to pot or alcohol under stress, because our brains are endorphin junkies and will do whatever is necessary to stimulate their production. Ever wonder why some kids absolutely MUST do things to get in trouble, knowing that they will be punished? It's because the emotional stress of the conflict results in production of adrenaline, epinephrine, norepinephrine, and whatever else the body does under stress, and ALWAYS results in the release of endorphins. That's why people claim that "a good cry" makes them feel better. Endorphins. Runner's high? Endorphins.

So, attempting to satisfy the brain's desire for endorphins results in abuse of drugs and alcohol as destructive coping methods, while exercise and other natural mood-elevating activities are usually constructive. Now, if you've ever had a runner throw a tantrum when they were prevented from getting their endorphin fix, you can see the bad side of ANY compulsive activity which the brain has conditioned itself to perform to obtain endorphins.

I really don't care if you preserve bacon by smoking it with pot. Have at it. Good for you. Just don't think you're fooling anybody except the ones who haven't taken the time to learn, know and understand human nature and performance. I guarantee you, if pot enhanced a soldier's performance, endurance, alertness, vigilance, intelligence or any other positive human trait, the Army would be forcing them to smoke it. It would be in the air fresheners and urinal cakes, in the mashed potatoes, and included in every MRE. You may BELIEVE it makes you better, but the best you're going to come up with is that it has all the negative psychological effects of alcohol abuse without the same severity of physical harm. Yay! High praise for pot, no?

So, the occasional recreational user probably won't suffer any more ill effects than the occasional drinker. The relaxation and stress relief might even be good for as long as you don't overdo it, but that same caveat applies to every subsrtance you can take and everything you can do. I just don't think that retreat into substance abuse as a reason to live for teens and young adults is going to help any of them have a better life in the long run.
(cont)

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TWill 6 years, 4 months ago

Aich, you sure love that high horse you sit upon up there don't you? What gives you the right in your condescending, over-generalizing, blow-hard rants to pass judgement on so many different people?

I'm certainly not condoning irresponsible behavior or stereotypical slacker lifestyles. The lack of work-ethic in this community is one of its biggest challenges. But recreational drug use is not the sole culprit. A relaxed attitude is part of the overall culture that makes this, and most resort communities, a desirable place for tourists to come to visit.

I wonder just who could possibly meet your, out of touch, standards. Open your eyes and get a grip on reality! Otherwsie shut up, close your door, and enjoy watching the Military Channel and Fox News. Or is it reruns of 1950's sitcoms from the good-ol' days (when people knew their place) that you prefer?

As for your alledged subsciption to utilizing time effectively and not "pi$$ing your life away doing nothing that makes a difference"- how about the time you have spent typing away on this post?

Based on your dillusional outlook on people, our town and modern society as a whole, I would guess that you were the one smoking something.

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NchronicPain 6 years, 4 months ago

Based on your dillusional outlook on people, our town and modern society as a whole, I would guess that you were the one smoking something.

Amen, Thank you, TWill.

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jk 6 years, 4 months ago

Aich, you should give artistic people a break , being one yourself you should know they produce very tangible things. After all look at the threads of artistic bologna on this post that have kept us all so entertained for days now. Aich I guess what I am trying to say is that is part of life, a little entertainment to relax. People come home after a long fullfilling day at work kick of their shoes and relax a bit. It helps rejuvinate us for the next day. And some people do it with a drink, some smoke, some listen to music, some watch their favorite show, some think up endless rants for their favorite blogg.... but this time we take makes us ready to take on the task at hand the next day. So please don't knock other people for having different ideas about what is tangible in their lives. "It takes all the freaky people to make the world go around"

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aichempty 6 years, 4 months ago

There are themes that run through literature, film and myths going back thousands of years.

Odysseus in the Land of the Lotus Eaters and under Circe's spell describes societies living in a drug-induced stupor.

What about "Invasion of the Body Snatchers." People taken over by pods; their brains controlled by an alien plant.

You guys have seen "The Matrix," right? Consider the fact that you may be living a virtual life that seems all fine and dandy, but to an outside observer who doesn't share your point of view, you're just being sucked into cultivating, protecting and propagating (or funding the people who do) plants that control your life to the point you voluntarily take in their toxins as a reward. Wow. Spooky, huh?

There are people who will defend alcohol abuse and tobacco just like you defend pot, but you would call them NUTS, right? People inhale solvents, drink cleaning products, and do all manner of nutsy stuff trying to get high. And pot is different because . . . you think it's okay?

The comment up above about all other medicines having the dosage and purposes, with appropriate warnings attached, listed on the packages really rings true. The only thing I'll add is that alcohol should also come with warnings regarding fatal dosages, and it probably will if a few more college kids die from chugging the stuff.

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Duke_bets 6 years, 4 months ago

trump - Very good point about your mother in law.........I personally know numerous doctors / nurses with varying specialty degrees. The vast majority agree with your mother in law.

Past and present users will always agree with jk and best........They have to support their personal drug store.

I would like to see a study involving pot heads vs the drug free world on this subject. My guess is the results would be near 100% for the potheads supporting medical marijuana and 100% for the drug free against. Pretty simple to figure out who supports drug use.

I would also like to see the results of medical marijuana users who have never smoked the crap before their doctor prescribed it. My guess is 0 responses for just being introduced by a doctor.

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jk 6 years, 4 months ago

Duke, You just keep all of us guessing about things ok.

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aichempty 6 years, 4 months ago

Twilly,

The biggest thing in most people's way is a lack of determination. I know folks who will not get up and do the minimum to keep things that are supposedly important to them. They will sit until that thing goes away or is taken away, and then just do without it.

Ever hear the phrase, "Before you spend a lot of time waiting for your ship to come in, be sure you sent one out."

This community is full of people who have tried to subsist and exist on the minimum while things got more expensive all around them. Hey, I came up here to escape crime and crowding and all that stuff too, but you know what? It takes a lot of work to make it up here. People who plan to retire without a pension plan need 2 - 3 million bucks in their IRAs and 401k accounts to maintain their standard of living. What are all of our 40-50 year-old former hippies going to do when Social Security is their only income? Sell out and move away -- yeah, provided they own something they've managed to pay for during their working life. Living on the street is not an option, so what? Move to Brush and pick beets at age 80?

It breaks my heart to think that some very good people living here may end up in dire straits because they assumed things would work out, when things don't work out. That's all. A lot of people around here think that "support" means telling you that they "support you." I'd like to see people escape the inevitable disaster that will happen for some of them if they don't "put down dat reefer!"

jk,

At my age, with my major accomplishments all behind me, there's not much of a need to get out and work at conquering the world. This is the time I earned by working hard and taking risks in the past. I'm not depending on selling MP3s to pay my electric bill when I start collecting Social Security. I'm going to follow my Dad's example, who told me he was going to enjoy retirement, because that's what he worked 39 years to earn. I'm hoping to do it in 38 years, but time and Wall Street will tell.

Time and opportunity will pass people by if they don't act. Opportunities to grow and achieve in the teens and twenties which are not taken cannot be recaptured. The only reason I can think of that a person over 30 would advocate pot use for teens and twenties is that misery loves company, and keeping others down often passes for advancement in certain social circles.

I'll admit to one thing, and it's that the day I don't have to work for a living anymore will be the day I start living to do all the things I missed while I was at work. Some people think that's backwards, but then, some other people wish they could go back and do it my way.

Peace.

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NchronicPain 6 years, 4 months ago

Aich, since you signed, "Peace." Does that mean your done and you will finally shut up and go away?

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trump_suit 6 years, 4 months ago

Aich, In your own words:

"So, the occasional recreational user probably won't suffer any more ill effects than the occasional drinker. The relaxation and stress relief might even be good for as long as you don't overdo it, but that same caveat applies to every subsrtance you can take and everything you can do. "

On this we can agree. The question then becomes Why is alchohol legal and marajuana illegal? "The same caveat applies to every substance you can take and everything you can do."

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aichempty 6 years, 4 months ago

trumpy,

"Why?"

I don't know. According to the controlled substances act, it's because "marihuana" has a high risk of abuse and trafficking AND has no valid medical use outside of government approved research programs.

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playa46 6 years, 4 months ago

Aich-

When I said you have good points, I meant you have good points. I am not agreeing with you, but not necessarily disagreeing. Every rose has it's thorn, right? I agree with you on the fact that yes, it can destroy lives. I do not agree with you on the fact that everybody must live the way you do, that you can sit on your high throne and tell people your opinion about the way they are and call that a reason to stop marijuana. God I am tired of laying down the facts for you.

Chronie- I suppose I enjoy your posts as well, but Aich is no idiot, again he has his reasons.

Windle- That is a great thought there. All problems can be overcome I suppose. And it is true, we have missed the true subject of this article.

Well, I have to get ready for CSAPS....

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aichempty 6 years, 4 months ago

Playa,

I feel the same way. I don't plan to get people to agree with me. But that's no reason to refuse to learn about someone else's point of view. There is value in all knowledge, including second order effects that may come to light which people have not considered.

I find myself having no good reason to oppose the use of marijuana where it has beneficial effects and the potential harm is either less severe than going without it, or unlikely to make a difference. For example, someone dying of pancreatic cancer who obtains relief by smoking pot is not likely to survive to be harmed by the other conditions which can arise with long-term pot use. It's not discussed openly, but physicians often prescribe morphene to "keep the patient comfortable" when terminal. Morphene depresses respiration, so, why give it to someone dying of lung disease? (To hurry the process along, of course, when there's no hope of recovery and the only thing you can do is prolong the suffering). I was given morphene and another med in the ER when I injured myself last year, and the only thing I remember is losing feeling in my legs and not caring what happened next. So, yeah, that would be my choice of how to "go to sleep" and never wake up if I was suffering without hope of recovery. My problem with the stuff is when people propose to allow adolescents (up to age 25, starting around age 12) to self-medicate with it. Same for alcohol, glue, paint thinner or anything else. The fact that adolescents crave it and retreat into abuse of it to the exclusion of productive activities (like education) is the problem. Legalizing it is not going to solve that problem.

Oh, a second-order effect. If pot was legal, the cops would not have probable cause to search a vehicle or a home when it's discovered. How many criminal enterprises and other crimes would go undiscovered if the pot "keyhole" into the lives of criminals was removed? Lots of DUIs are discovered after the driver is stopped for speeding or some other traffic offense, so you can see how second-order effects kick in.

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aichempty 6 years, 4 months ago

Windle,

Within 5 or 6 months after I graduated from college, I found myself upside down, going 300 mph, pulling 5 g's, doing math in my head in the equivalent of a WW-II fighter plane. A year after that, I was flying from a carrier deck and a year after that, I was training other pilots.

Fifteen years later I was a 38 year-old engineer working around some people ten years younger who had attended college on Mom and Dad's money, obtained graduate degrees, and gone into the workforce without ever doing anything except attending school. One of them wanted to learn how to fly -- another one was racing formula cars -- a third was cheating on her husband. The human soul craves adventure, exploration and conquest, and will be discontent if denied it. Misconduct and self-medication are some of the side effects of failing to scratch the itch for adventure. Even recovering from a failed venture can be a positive experience, and I have discovered that life does not get shorter; it gets longer. If you're waiting for your time to expire, you're going to have a long wait.

God created us with feet and legs to stand upright so we could scan the horizon for the next thing ahead. We could be anchored by roots like trees, or attached to rocks like barnacles, but we're different. You'll notice there are no great apes running space exploration programs.

(Hmmm . . . which wild animals consume cannabis? Should this tell us something?)

The path I took was filled with danger and some of my friends died along the way, but 20 years later I am working with people who took the same route, and none of us regret it. We discovered our limitations by reaching for the limit, not by staying home and settling for the line of least resistance.

There are certainly things I would do differently if I could go back with perfect knowledge of the future, but having the adventures in my 20s is something I would not change. I do recommend, however, that you require him to be financially self-sufficient during his quest. Learning how to live within your means is an important skill, and learning how to succeed to get what you want also helps people figure out what's really important to them. The only real limitations are the laws of physics. As long as you have common sense, you can work around everything else.

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Kristopher Hammond 6 years, 4 months ago

H: Get over yourself! The world you yearn for--where everyone was just like you--would be sterile and judgmental, with faster airplanes. No thanks.

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aichempty 6 years, 4 months ago

Shawnt,

Oh, no, you're wrong. My world would be full of people who love and respect each other, don't hurt each other, and work together to make life better. I'd have to be like them to avoid feeling guilty. It would make me a better person.

Selling drugs is just ####### people over for a profit, and giving them drugs is just ####### them over.

A famous man once said of himself, "Even a prophet is without honor in his own country." That means people don't want to hear the truth; they want to hear what serves their selfish motives.

I haven't said anywhere in this whole discussion that drug use is morally wrong. Pain relief is merciful. Seeking drugs to feed an addiction or a dependency is a waste of a human life, however, and no nation or community of people has ever prospered by devoting their time and resources to staying high. I know a guy right now, a high school graduate with just a smattering of college classes, pushing 30, who was making over 100k selling high-end pre-owned cars last year, oh, and he was regularly using cocaine. Now he's out of work and wishing he had his coke money back, stashed in the bank, because his job is handing out towels in a health club and mopping up with bleach after closing. He's having a tough time paying child support to his ex-wife, and his girlfriend is pregnant too. He smoked a lot of pot in high school, but at least it never hurt him . . . .

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Kristopher Hammond 6 years, 4 months ago

Again, get over yourself. Write a book. Let the market decide who wants to be like you.

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aichempty 6 years, 4 months ago

Well, I guess I've been put in my place, huh?

Let's close this discussion by imagining one of our family members drunk and pi$$ing on the sidewalk when the cops arrive.

Oh, yeah. Everybody wants to be like that.

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jk 6 years, 4 months ago

The funny thing about this whole argument is that she was drunk, If she had been high she wouldn't have had to pee!

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NchronicPain 6 years, 4 months ago

The funny thing about this whole argument is that she was drunk, If she had been high she wouldn't have had to pee!

yep.... and she probably would've gone home alot earlier, munched on a little food and went safely to sleep, only to wake up refreshed, having slept soundly, with no hang over, ready for a new day. Instead, the "safe" alcohol she drank caused her to make stupid decisions and wake up the next day wondering how she ruined other people's lives by just drinking.

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bestfreeheel 6 years, 4 months ago

aich, Your arguments are antiquated. As far as marijuana criminalization is concerned, you don't have a leg to stand on. Prohibition doesn't work. Marijuana is safer than alcohol. Deluding yourself into thinking the world would be a better place if everybody abided by your way of living is the epitome of grandiosity and arrogance, two character traits that most decent people shy away from.

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1999 6 years, 4 months ago

this entire thread is hilarious.

i mean I see poeple wacked out on precription personality drugs all day long.

uppers downers..."oh I'm feeling a little blue today...better take a couple pills..."oh I'm feeling very stressed today...better take some pills" "oh my back hurts a bit...better take some pills"

and we think marijuana is a problem????

i really don't think people have ANY idea how many people walk around AND DRIVE wacked out on perfectly legal precription drugs.

this whole debate is laughable.

oh yeah...did rush limbaugh do any jail time????

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

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1999 6 years, 4 months ago

aich....sounds like your coke doing friend who lost is job made some really bad choices....allowing drugs to run his life not him running his life being one of the hundreds of bad choices.

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playa46 6 years, 4 months ago

Aich, you did it again:

"Well, I guess I've been put in my place, huh?

Let's close this discussion by imagining one of our family members drunk and pi$$ing on the sidewalk when the cops arrive.

Oh, yeah. Everybody wants to be like that."

Once again, you set aside a group of people and say that is a good reason to keep pot illegal.

Then you went on to say this:

"God created us with feet and legs to stand upright so we could scan the horizon for the next thing ahead. We could be anchored by roots like trees, or attached to rocks like barnacles, but we're different. You'll notice there are no great apes running space exploration programs.

(Hmmm : which wild animals consume cannabis? Should this tell us something?)"

Hmmm... which wild animals smoke cigarettes and drink? Which wild animals think as well as we do? None. Which animals "pi$$ on the sidewalk"? Basically all of them. Sorry, you're running in circles here.

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oldskoolstmbt 6 years, 4 months ago

playa and 1999!~ excellent...keep up the good work. aich~ i do see the light you are trying to shine on all of us 'under you'...however, it may be time to turn in the lantern and just try to understand or accept the new world we are livin' in.....i do know venison LOVE the mary jane! can't grow a garden in the forest anymore...lol!

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aichempty 6 years, 4 months ago

Oldie,

And those would be the ones the predators would take most easily if there were any predators left.

I remember TV commercials when I was a kid that promoted the healthful aspects of one cigarette brand over another. Every pro-drug argument made in this thread uses exactly the same approach; denial and recruitment.

I am truly disappointed by the general attitude that everybody must use something, whether drugs, alcohol, tobacco or whatever, as a part of life as usual. Maybe this is evolution's way of telling the human race it has gone far enough. The intelligence has been squandered because the frontal brain that gives us the emotions necessary to care for children and form pair bonds over an unusually long lifetime (compared to almost every other creature) apparently requires a lot of maintenance and selective deadening in a large number of individuals.

Most of us don't hunt, there's not much around we can gather without being arrested, and getting up and going to mostly customer service jobs that don't require any creativity to survive have left us dull and dead ended.

Hey, change of subject; who do you suppose is committing all the burglaries the Pilot article talks about? Any ideas? Is it people who just want "stuff," or is it people who need to steal and sell to live, or -- oh -- could it be people breaking into the houses where they think pot is being grown? Now that would be pretty funny. Who do you complain to about that?

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1999 6 years, 4 months ago

so are you comparing the rise and abuse of cpaitalism and the never ending pursuit of the "american dream" on drugs???

so people who are in boring jobs are doing drugs?

or drugs lead them to boring jobs?

is this one of the downfalls to the pursuit of the 'american dream"

I guess I don't get what you are attributing the use of drugs to.

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playa46 6 years, 4 months ago

Aich, are you kidding me?

"I remember TV commercials when I was a kid that promoted the healthful aspects of one cigarette brand over another. Every pro-drug argument made in this thread uses exactly the same approach; denial and recruitment."

We have facts to say that marijuana is harmless. This isn't a T.V. add, what are you trying to prove? Denial? Please look at some of these. Prove them wrong, and then tell me I am in denial.

http://www.alternet.org/drugreporter/60959/ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KLy15... http://www.mjlegal.org/essayspeech.html

If anything, I think you are in denial. Where are your facts? You base your argument off of emotion "pi$$ing on the sidewalk", I think you have lost it.

"I am truly disappointed by the general attitude that everybody must use something, whether drugs, alcohol, tobacco or whatever, as a part of life as usual. Maybe this is evolution's way of telling the human race it has gone far enough. The intelligence has been squandered because the frontal brain that gives us the emotions necessary to care for children and form pair bonds over an unusually long lifetime (compared to almost every other creature) apparently requires a lot of maintenance and selective deadening in a large number of individuals."

Again, based off of what YOU feel. We don't want people to have to smoke, drink or chew. We feel it is wrong to call people what they are not, and retreat back to our money. We think it is wrong that we spend so much money on something that has saved lives, to keep it legal, while others make so much money being able to sell it. You get the wrong message there.

Now, for you "evolution" argument, marijuana has been smoked for thousands of years, yet look at where we are at now. Marijuana didn't kill us all off, and now we are starting to go to planets now. Why did you even begin using that argument? Where is you logic?

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aichempty 6 years, 4 months ago

Playa,

The only thing one has to do is look at your so-called sources, and it's obvious they are pro-pot organizations.

You need to google up some medical journals and see how they deal with so-called clinical proof. They talk about such things as statistical significance of the results (like the Greek symbol for "alpha" = .001).

Scientific results are properly documented, statistically supported, and published in peer-reviewed journals. If I saw the same sort of rigor followed in your pro-pot-ganda, it could have some validity. The stuff you're referencing is pretty much like, "Superman can beat up Batman." Who cares?

There's a book you should read. It's available from the Institute for Creation Research. It's called, "What Really Happened to the Dinosaurs." You can find it on Amazon.com. It contains proof that dinosaurs were alive in Old Testament times, and that dinosaurs were on the Ark with Noah, and that they only became extinct after the Great Flood when the world was changed and many other mythical creatures like dragons and unicorns also perished because of the environmental disaster resulting from the flood. You see, God flooded the world because Man is sinful, and the result is that today's children don't have live dinosaurs to look at because of SIN!

http://www.icr.org/

I'm not making this up. It's published in a real book by people who say they are real scientists.

http://www.amazon.com/What-Really-Happened-Dinosaurs-Tracker/dp/0890511594#reader

If you will agree that the Institute for Creation Research has got this one right, then I'll agree that your pro-pot-ganda research results are right also.

I don't believe in the creation science stuff either, but if you take it at face value side-by-side with your pot-pro-ganda sites, both are equally compelling.

So, nice try, but the only one you're fooling with this stuff is yourself.

I'll grant you this. If you can make A's in Calculus, Physics, Thermodynamics and Chemistry at a school accredited to grant degrees in engineering, while regularly smoking pot, it's probably not hurting you. If you're flunking algebra in high school while smoking pot, maybe you'd better rethink it.

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trump_suit 6 years, 4 months ago

I am glad you are so committed to your beliefs Aich. The problem is you haven't opened your eyes to the true problems. I do not condone or support drug use, but there are more and more of us that think we are fighting the problem in the wrong way.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/03/31/cafferty.legal.drugs/index.html?imw=Y&iref=mpstoryemail

Your blanket pronouncements do nothing to change the fact that prohibition doesn't work. Never has, never will.

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oldskoolstmbt 6 years, 4 months ago

even if the proof was brought forward aich...it really would not matter...and that's ok! your good in your world...the next is ok in theirs.....let's be ok with oneonother...as long as we are not hurting eachother...where is the love?.....it's a plant

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1999 6 years, 4 months ago

Aich,

just because someone wrote a book about a subject and sells it on ebay doesnot make it true.

I can find a book about anything.

seriously...dinosaurs on the ark?????And you know this to be true because someone wrote a book about it???

it's beyond my comprehension that someone (and apparently ALOT of people believe This)

can honestly believe the world is 10k years old.

serious lack of judgement and critical thinking going on.

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1999 6 years, 4 months ago

I'm not making this up. It's published in a real book by people who say they are real scientists.

and then this.....

You see, God flooded the world because Man is sinful, and the result is that today's children don't have live dinosaurs to look at because of SIN

oh my god.

seriously...oh my god.

you people scare me. next thing you'll want to have ID taught in science classes.

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trump_suit 6 years, 4 months ago

In all fairness 1999, Aich did not say that he/she beleived in the book on Ebay. The commentary was that Playa's postings and articles on the internet were not necessarily the truth and that almost anything could be found to support one's limited point of view. The Creationism book was used as a strong example of one such point that was clearly wrong.

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aichempty 6 years, 4 months ago

1999,

Reading comprehension seems to be a problem. If your ability to perceive the written word is so poor, maybe there's a reason for it?

I didn't say I believed in creation science. If you read the post, you'll see I said I do NOT believe in the idea of creation science. I was making the point that you can find all kinds of wacky stuff on the internet, but that doesn't make it scientific, and it doesn't make it true.

Trumpster,

I don't "believe" that drugs harm people. As a scientist I KNOW that drugs harm people, including a lot of drugs that are supposed to help people. That's why they call the harmful effects "side effects" and print warnings in the package inserts.

People are making personal choices to consciously seek intoxication as a coping mechanism. That's the problem. Forget whether its legal or illegal; that's not the point.

Abuse of intoxicating substances is a symptom in the "Diagnostic and Statistical Manual" of the American Psychiatric Association. See below:

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aichempty 6 years, 4 months ago

DSM-IV Substance Abuse Criteria

Substance abuse is defined as a maladaptive pattern of substance use leading to clinically significant impairment or distress as manifested by one (or more) of the following, occurring within a 12-month period:

Recurrent substance use resulting in a failure to fulfill major role obligations at work, school, or home (such as repeated absences or poor work performance related to substance use; substance-related absences, suspensions, or expulsions from school; or neglect of children or household). Recurrent substance use in situations in which it is physically hazardous (such as driving an automobile or operating a machine when impaired by substance use) Recurrent substance-related legal problems (such as arrests for substance related disorderly conduct) Continued substance use despite having persistent or recurrent social or interpersonal problems caused or exacerbated by the effects of the substance (for example, arguments with spouse about consequences of intoxication and physical fights). Note: The symptoms for abuse have never met the criteria for dependence for this class of substance. According to the DSM-IV, a person can be abusing a substance or dependent on a substance but not both at the same time.

DSM-IV Substance Dependence Criteria Substance dependence is defined as a maladaptive pattern of substance use leading to clinically significant impairment or distress, as manifested by three (or more) of the following, occurring any time in the same 12-month period:

Tolerance, as defined by either of the following: (a) A need for markedly increased amounts of the substance to achieve intoxication or the desired effect or (b) Markedly diminished effect with continued use of the same amount of the substance. Withdrawal, as manifested by either of the following: (a) The characteristic withdrawal syndrome for the substance or (b) The same (or closely related) substance is taken to relieve or avoid withdrawal symptoms. The substance is often taken in larger amounts or over a longer period than intended. There is a persistent desire or unsuccessful efforts to cut down or control substance use. A great deal of time is spent in activities necessary to obtain the substance, use the substance, or recover from its effects. Important social, occupational, or recreational activities are given up or reduced because of substance use. The substance use is continued despite knowledge of having a persistent physical or psychological problem that is likely to have been caused or exacerbated by the substance (for example, current cocaine use despite recognition of cocaine-induced depression or continued drinking despite recognition that an ulcer was made worse by alcohol consumption). American Psychiatric Association. 1994. Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders: DSM-IV. Washington D.C.: American Psychiatric Association. (pp. 181-183)

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trump_suit 6 years, 4 months ago

NO argument there Aich. I have never downplayed or ignored the problems with Substance abuse. We currently have many citizens that experience problems with abusive behavior. Examples like alchohol abuse, sex addiction, gambling and yes, cocain, heroin and meth. As you can clearly see here, I listed both substances and behaviors that are both legal and illegal.

The problem of abuse and its symptoms are better treated by medical personel and family than prison officials. The problems of gangs, violence, money and guns would be far less prevelant if people like you would take off their blinders and open their eyes to the real problems that are being caused by "The War on Drugs" I am sure you can use your own research to determine that the period of alchohol prohibition in this country caused many of the same concerns with gangs, money and guns. It is almost like a 4 lane highway leading you to the truth if you would open your eyes to a solution that you do not like.

Just because you are opposed to drugs and their abuse does not mean that fighting the problem in that manner is effective. It is time to try another way.

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NchronicPain 6 years, 4 months ago

David Jensen will next make an appearance at 2 p.m. April 1, while Marie Jensen will appear at 2 p.m. April 15.

Thats today for Mr. Jensen..... Is the Pilot Paparazzi down going to be there???

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jk 6 years, 4 months ago

Aich, I think drinking played the largest role in all 4 of your points used, but its legal so its ok.

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NchronicPain 6 years, 4 months ago

^^TYPO

going down..... not down going.... wow I type faster than my brain dictates.... LOL

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jk 6 years, 4 months ago

Aich, so as long as we are on the subject of reading into things: Blogging= substance. LOL Happy April Fools Day.

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aichempty 6 years, 4 months ago

jk,

Huh?

Trump,

The fact is, it's not my problem and not my fight. The lawyers are going to make a bundle; I only hope they spend the money in town.

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playa46 6 years, 4 months ago

Hahahahahahaha Aich

Yup, your theory that dinos were around the time of the old testament definitely changed my mind about pot.

..............APRIL FOOLS!!!!

"You need to google up some medical journals and see how they deal with so-called clinical proof. They talk about such things as statistical significance of the results (like the Greek symbol for "alpha" = .001)."

Well, if you looked at my sources, you would see actual facts, both medical and economic, that point to the fact that pot is harmless, nice try though.

"There's a book you should read. It's available from the Institute for Creation Research. It's called, "What Really Happened to the Dinosaurs." You can find it on Amazon.com. It contains proof that dinosaurs were alive in Old Testament times, and that dinosaurs were on the Ark with Noah, and that they only became extinct after the Great Flood when the world was changed and many other mythical creatures like dragons and unicorns also perished because of the environmental disaster resulting from the flood. You see, God flooded the world because Man is sinful, and the result is that today's children don't have live dinosaurs to look at because of SIN!"

"If you will agree that the Institute for Creation Research has got this one right, then I'll agree that your pro-pot-ganda research results are right also."

This has nothing to do with statistics at all. You are just through blind logic at me, and trying to make me agree with you. You totally missed my point, you somehow changed this discussion into a religious debate, which I am sure the Pilot will not by happy with, they put good effort into making this article.

"I'll grant you this. If you can make A's in Calculus, Physics, Thermodynamics and Chemistry at a school accredited to grant degrees in engineering, while regularly smoking pot, it's probably not hurting you. If you're flunking algebra in high school while smoking pot, maybe you'd better rethink it."

Or, I could just win eight gold medals in the Olympics, and still be able to smoke pot. Phelps can't be doing bad now, right? Stop throwing stuff at me that is based off your opinion.

Like I said before, where is your logic?

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aichempty 6 years, 4 months ago

Playa,

Phelps has physical attributes that make him a good swimmer.

If you think you can win eight medals just because you smoke pot, then you must be smoking . . . oh, yeah, you are. Now, that's really some sound logic right there.

Oh, isn't logic a course you take when you major in philosophy? I guess philosophy majors must be the bullies on the liberal arts school yard. It shows. Good luck with the job selling time shares.

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playa46 6 years, 4 months ago

"If you think you can win eight medals just because you smoke pot, then you must be smoking : oh, yeah, you are. Now, that's really some sound logic right there."

Micheal Phelps smoked before the Olympics. If you think your "logic" is correct, then you must be smoking. Sorry, but changing the subject won't help you win here.

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MrTaiChi 6 years, 4 months ago

Wasn't George Bush supposed to be a doper when he was young?

Ironic posterboy for the beneficial use of pot.

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aichempty 6 years, 4 months ago

Playa,

I don't need to win.

Remember the kids who got blown up while dancing on the oil tank a while back? Weren't they smoking pot and drinking beer before that happened? How come the pot didn't help them? I believe the laws of physics delivered a big "you lose" to them.

Do you think maybe Gerry Garcia smoked pot? He's still dead from liver disease, isn't he? Again, he lost.

What about the fella who passed out in the garage apartment and suffocated, along with his dog, after putting a pot of oil on the stove to heat up, and it caught on fire? Do you think he was a pot smoker, and if so, did it help him? I don't think so. Another self-inflicted "you lose" settles that argument.

Ooh, and your buddy Michael Phelps? How much did he "lose" when the bong video came out and his endorsement contracts disappeared? I hope that bong hit was worth a million bucks, because that's at least what he paid for it.

Seems like a common thread is at work here. Pot use does not protect people from doing something stupid to screw up their lives.

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trump_suit 6 years, 4 months ago

Please Aich, comment on the differences between Alchohol and Marajuana for us will you?

Why won't FighterJet pilots drink for at least 24 hours before a flight?

Why won't sharpshooters drink at all 24-48 hours before competition?

Why is it that one serious nervous system depressant is legal and one is not? Please no BS about it must be bad because it is illegal. Please give us hard facts about the effects not the laws.

You will never hear me say that these substances are "good for you" I only highlight the hypocrisis in our current legal system and it's "War on Drugs"

Since the Nixon signed "Executive Order 11727--Drug law enforcement" in 1973 have we stopped anyone?

Would this country have been better served to spend our resources on those that could benefit from it rather than punishing and incarcerating the ones that could care less?

You said earlier in this thread that you did not have a "dog in this fight" in response to my arguments. I disagree. By taking such a strong stance you are helping to stop progress towards a real solution much like the far right of the Republican party. I challenge your position on this issue.

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aichempty 6 years, 4 months ago

Oh, trump, I'm aghast!

Alcoholism is equally bad if not worse. Why add something bad to something that's already bad?

The rule is "12 hours from bottle to throttle." The 100% oxygen that tactical jet pilots inhale is generally helpful for a hangover too.

I was a competition sharpshooter. Got a college letter to prove it. Got trophies for high score and high average. A couple of drinks the night before a match has a relaxing effect that helps lower the heart rate the next morning -- it's a depressant, remember? -- and a lower heart rate increases accuracy, particularly in the standing position. Sharpshooters learn to squeeze between heart beats, and you can watch the muzzle move up and down over the bull's eye in a vertical motion if you're holding the rifle properly.

The fact that we have alcoholics running amok in no way justifies the legalization of other intoxicants.

What do you do about coke? Legalize it? Meth? Legalize it? Do you let minors have it too? If not, how do you stop the trafficking to minors? If you tax it, how do you get around the black market that will continue to operate?

The alternative is to let everybody do what they want and then deal with the aftermath of the resulting carnage.

Everybody points to Amsterdam as a shining example. BS. Do they have kids knocking over liquor stores in Amsterdam? Do they tolerate ethnic gangs and violence? Do the Dutch agree with each other to not talk to the polce, and then murder each other if someone does?

Our problem is with our diverse population and cultural values. Things would probably work in Steamboat that wouldn't work in LA, Atlanta, Miami and Memphis. That's the problem you can't solve with legalization.

If we didn't have gangs running drugs, we'd have gangs robbing banks, grocery stores and invading homes to obtain money. How do you solve that? Cashless society? Then what? Lock up all the food and booze until the gangs starve to death? Do you think they're just all going to get jobs and live like the Cleavers if pot is legalized?

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bestfreeheel 6 years, 4 months ago

OK aich, now you're just being hysterical. Your arguments have sundered into hyperbole. Here, read this. http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2009/03/the-cannabis-closet.html Believe it or not, millions of Americans smoke pot regularly, and lead productive lives. They are forced into a "Cannabis Closet" because of prohibition and outright lies being fed to the public. You, aich, perpetuate those lies, shame on you! You sound like a faily intelligent human being. Why must you buy into the hysterical propaganda about pot?

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playa46 6 years, 4 months ago

Aich, you gave another well written speech about your thoughts and emotions on the matter. Alcohol is a better killer than pot and you just wont accept that. Sorry, I don't know what to do with you...

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jk 6 years, 4 months ago

Aich, I'm aghast, It amazes me that someone supposedly as accomplished as yourself still maintains such a narrow minded and cynical view on life.

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trump_suit 6 years, 4 months ago

Aich, I will repeat for you in BIG SLOW WORDS!

During Prohibition this country experienced extreme problems with Gangs, Guns and Violence. When prohibition ended, law enforcement was able to get those problems under control.

Sound familiar? Since 1973 and the Nixon hardening of the US drug laws our country has experienced a strong increase in (you guessed it) Gangs, Guns and violence.

Change the laws, treat the people with the problems. The problems were not created overnight and will not end overnight, but history tells us that we have a better shot at controlling the problem with treatment and education.

Yes, legalize the whole shooting match including the drugs that aren't invented yet and teach our children better. Of course we do not legalize for children, like duh! For the numbers of people that "admit" to doing illegal drugs in their youth, our general population sure seems to know better. Just how many people are out there that have a serious drug problem do you think there are?

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jk 6 years, 4 months ago

Trump, the drugs that aren't invented yet that's funny. We all know those are the ones the big pharmaceutical companies will take care of. They will hand us a 60 second spot during prime time tv about their benefits, with 15 seconds of disclaimer about how you might not see straight or your liver may fall out, and Aich will buy them. Only because his Dr. prescribed them and his insurance paid for them so they must be perfectly ok. Meanwhile a plant that grows naturally is outlawed and ridiculed.

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rkymtn 6 years, 4 months ago

lock em up, its illegal, they knew it was illegal, kids partying in a dope house...this is a problem in SB, parents giving kids drugs...DA do your job and lock em up..maximum... do the city a favor...keep drug out of our schools.

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NchronicPain 6 years, 4 months ago

Aich, "Do you think maybe Gerry Garcia smoked pot? He's still dead from liver disease, isn't he? Again, he lost."

OMG!!! Jerry is spelled with a "J"....... and he did NOT die of liver disease, he died of a heart attack, and he was a heroin addict..... barely even smoked weed. You got bigger problems than weed could ever cause, Aich. Way bigger.

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aichempty 6 years, 4 months ago

Okay, time out.

I don't advocate drug use or abuse of any kind. Physicians are responsible for pushing pills. They take an oath to relieve pain and suffering. That's fine when pain and disease affect the quality of a person's life. Being in so much pain that work is impossible is a good reason for giving pain medication; what's lost? Self medicating to get through a shift at Blockbuster is something entirely different, and that's the problem.

You want me to agree that legalizing marijuana is a good idea. It's not. What about lowering the drinking age to 18? Nope. Bad idea. The human brain is not fully developed until the mid 20s, and owners of immature brains are not equipped to make decisions regarding substance use. I remember some of the things I did between 18 and 25 and shudder at how lucky I was that nothing terrible resulted.

I am perfectly aware that the war on drugs is not working. I am perfectly aware that much of it is due to lack of parental control. I am also aware that much of it is due to lack of a parent in the home, and having a single parent in the home who sets the example of being screwed up on drugs.

This is a problem that can only be solved by people making a conscious decision to act differently and use intoxicating substances responsibly.

We are all going to have to learn to live with the way things are unless Congress changes the laws, and I don't see that happening.

Amsterdam doesn't have violent ethnic gangs operating inside their borders.

Trafficking is a money-making operation, not a social reform movement.

When you see the news reports of drug-related violence in Mexico and along our border, that blood is on your hands if you're using the stuff. People die so you can get high.

So make a personal choice and live with it. Life doesn't come without risks, and if you want to spend yours on using illegal substances, you accept the risk. Light up and write up your concerns and send them to your representatives. That's the American way and the American process. Sometimes you get Bush, and sometimes you get Obama, but at least we don't sing "God Save The Queen" when the flag goes up.

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trump_suit 6 years, 4 months ago

Thats a nice commentary Aich. Did you actually read my last post? I asked you several specific questions that you consistently fail to answer.

Just how big do you think the drug abuse problem is? Give us a percentage of population. Has it changed in the last 40 years?

Which is the more serious problem Gangs, Guns Violence or Drug abuse? Those are NOT mutually exclusive and can be answered separately.

By ignoring the problems you miss the solutions. In answer to your questions. yes, all countries experience problems with gangs, guns and violence. The problem really boils down to how much money the gangs have. Remove the large profit base and the gangs lose power.

If the "war on drugs" is not working, should we not try another way to try and control the problem? After 40 years of repeating the same effort it is time to try another way.

Note, unlike some on thee thread, I do not espouse the eternal goodness of all things Marajuana :) I believe that we are fighting the problem of drug use in the wrong manner and have acutally made the problem worse with the current approach.

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aichempty 6 years, 4 months ago

Playa,

I think the only thing you are proving is that posting while high leads to incoherence. You musta won a debate somewhere along the line. But how about that algebra grade?

Oldie,

Some kids who are smoking dope today are not going to be able to make a living in Steamboat that will allow them to own homes here unless they are selling the stuff too. We know it's done, because of the Stagecoach case.

I think my final post on this thread is going to be that the Jensens are in big trouble because of how they were handling pot, and it's going to cost them a bunch of money out of their pockets no matter which way the case comes out. I am certain that pot is an illegal drug under federal law, and under state law, and I hope it's worth the trouble to people who get caught. I've talked about "second order effects" above, and this case and the Stagecoach case are illustrative; somebody else caused them to be discovered. They were careful, they thought, but both cases have proved that people who deal in illegal activities cannot allow others to know what they're doing without risking detection. Did pot use affect their ability to figure out the risks, or did it just help them deny it.

I had a close relationship with someone who was under psychiatric care and used mood-altering medications to help manage the problem; basically, it was crippling social anxiety. A mild tranquilizer was prescribed for daily use. One of the effects was, apparently, impaired memory. It became obvious that this person could not be relied upon to make agreements, remember commitments, follow through on promises, etc., because they didn't remember making them. I think the marijuana users experience the same kinds of insidious side effects, and maybe denial of potential consequences of trafficking is one of them. Maybe convincing yourself that "everybody" does it and nobody finds anything wrong with it is a side effect. Maybe not realizing that people outside of Steamboat with bigger concerns know the truth about drug abuse is a side effect.

So, I can't stop you from using it. I probably won't use your affliction to make money from you. I know I won't rent one of my houses to you. Some day it will get cold, and some of you won't have money to live inside, and you'll disappear. And when you do; I won't care. It's not the marijuana I object to; it's the waste of a life -- or as some of you would say, your "carbon footprint" was left behind with no benefit to makind.

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aichempty 6 years, 4 months ago

And how would you compel those who abuse drugs to accept treatment when they think the drug is the answer to what ails them? Do you plan to treat high school kids who are using marijuana? I think you'd be wasting your time.

We live in a community right here where a majority of the people think the government is obligated to save and support us. Isn't it apparent by now that the government is part of the great evil that diverts resources from national priorities for political reasons? It comes back to personal responsibility, and some people are not.

I guess if drugs were legalized and a few dozen kids killed themselves the first month, people might get the idea.

Okay, let's give it a try. Might as well have white intellectual kids dying for a while instead of poor minority kids.

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playa46 6 years, 4 months ago

"You want me to agree that legalizing marijuana is a good idea. It's not. What about lowering the drinking age to 18? Nope. Bad idea. The human brain is not fully developed until the mid 20s, and owners of immature brains are not equipped to make decisions regarding substance use. I remember some of the things I did between 18 and 25 and shudder at how lucky I was that nothing terrible resulted."

Your first two sentences in the paragraph, aich, proves you have no idea what to say but your self-based opinion. I sure can tell you why it is a good idea, could you tell me why it is bad? Don't give me that "pi$$ing on the sidewalk" crap, cuz we all know it means nothing.

"We live in a community right here where a majority of the people think the government is obligated to save and support us. Isn't it apparent by now that the government is part of the great evil that diverts resources from national priorities for political reasons? It comes back to personal responsibility, and some people are not."

Maybe in your view... I am still waiting for that logic.

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oldskoolstmbt 6 years, 4 months ago

ok...sorry it's been awhile since i've been onboard...AICH~ back to your post of the kids dancing on the oil tanks ( which is incorrect), smoking pot and drinking...NOPE, sorry, there was never any evidence of pot with this one...but keep looping this substance with all your other ones as harmful..

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Troutguy 6 years, 4 months ago

Aich- Couple of things 1) Sorry you feel I'm a 'waste of life' and 'no benefit to mankind'. I don't think we've ever met, yet you make this generalization 2)I'd love to hear what you have done for the 'benefit of mankind'.

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aichempty 6 years, 4 months ago

Fishy,

Dang, I was going to quit. Okay, here's the test.

Drug abuse to the point where it becomes a reason to live is where the "waste of life" point kicks in. I wrote "some of you." Not "everybody." A life wasted on alcohol abuse, prescription drug abuse, fraudulent disability claims, etc., would qualify one to be a "waste of life." See the post above on DSM criteria for substance abuse and dependence. It obviously does not apply to casual users. If it applies to you, you might want to check in to a place that can help you shake it.

And as for what I've done? I don't know. Does giving a guy $10.00 for gas to get home back when it went over $4.00 a gallon count? Does writing a check for $100 every month to a drug treatment facility in the inner city count? Does voluntarily risking your life to save somebody else's life count? Does giving a Horizons client a job count? How about donating money to charities that provide guide dogs for blind people at no charge? How about never having given an underage person alcohol or drugs?

Oh, you know those lights on the floor of airliners that lead to the emergency exists? I was involved in a project that led to the installation of those lights in aircraft. I helped prove that people get disoriented when they can't breathe and can't see, but almost anybody can see a light and follow it to safety. I don't know if they ever saved anybody yet or not, but we gave it a shot.

One of the hallmarks of destructive substance abuse is a lack of concern or compassion for others. Meth, in particular, removes all feelings of guilt, which is one of the reasons it goes along with violence against other people. How many heavy pot users are out at the March for the Cure, volunteering at the food bank, and all that. If pot makes you care about other people and want to help them, I'm all for it. I just never heard anybody use that as a reason to smoke it. Am I wrong?

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aichempty 6 years, 4 months ago

Playa, ] Okay, it's common knowledge that people steal to support a drug habit in the inner cities.

How is legalization going to help people who have to steal to support the habit? Won't they just continue to steal to buy the legal drugs if drugs are legalized?

Over to you.

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playa46 6 years, 4 months ago

Aich-

"Playa,

I think the only thing you are proving is that posting while high leads to incoherence. You musta won a debate somewhere along the line. But how about that algebra grade?"

Man, still looking for that logic. Rather than calling me a stoner, why don't you post something factual? And the grade is an A, by the way.

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trump_suit 6 years, 4 months ago

Yes Aich. On so many levels you are indeed wrong.

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Kristopher Hammond 6 years, 3 months ago

Interesting--HMT (aich) is against a plant that makes people nice. Obviously, a threat to the American way of life and something that must be stopped.

Trump: You are correct. The gangs are in business BECAUSE drugs are illegal. The peddlers of LEGAL drugs are respectable corporations that pay taxes and make political contributions to limit regulation on their drugs. How many turf wars have erupted over cigarettes and alcohol (other than advertising campaigns)?

The only real threat to violent drug gangs is legalization. If I were them, I'd hire people to rail against legalization to protect my way of life, people like...like H! Are you in on this conspiracy H? Is that how you know so much about all the local conspiracies? Is that how you afford all these houses?? Does it take one to know one?

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NchronicPain 6 years, 3 months ago

Yes Aich. On so many levels you are indeed wrong.

^^Thank you.

And, Did I miss something? What happened at Stagecoach?

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trump_suit 6 years, 3 months ago

Nchronic, I think Aich had one too many drinks before that post and was referring to the the Lindahl case in Hilton Gulch.

Because Aich refuses to answer any real questions it is hard to tell what all of his/her rants refer to :)

Aich, yes the people that steal to support thier bad habits would continue to do so. What does that have to do with the basic arguments I have made? Please answer the questions about how serious you believe the drug abuse problem is. Give us numbers, not BS secondary effects and opinions.

How many people nationwide? How many people in Colorado? How many people in Routt County? Has it changed in the last 40 years?

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aichempty 6 years, 3 months ago

Cronie,

The big pot bust back in September was in that direction; Hilton Gulch was later given as a more precise location. Actually, the location was sorta garbled as RCR 14A when it was actually RCR41A.

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aichempty 6 years, 3 months ago

Trump,

It's more than one.

It's less than 300,000,000.

The part you're leaving out is how to make the abusers seek help, and then how to pay for it, and then what to do about all the people who will openly abuse and the resulting social costs.

I'm not a supporter of the so-called "war on drugs." I just don't understand how legalizing all drugs is really going to stop gang violence and all that. It doesn't follow.

Do you think that removing the "forbidden" label will change human nature? Then again, maybe you do. I don't understand how else it could work. Or, is your point that people who want to use drugs should be allowed to do so, no matter the effects?

I know that rats get addicted to cocaine, according to Harvard University. Is that what you want for people too?

Rat Study Suggests Why Teens Get Hooked On Cocaine More Easily Than Adults, And Find It Harder To Quit Main Category: Alcohol / Addiction / Illegal Drugs Article Date: 22 Apr 2008 - 3:00 PDT

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New drug research suggests that teens may get addicted and relapse more easily than adults because developing brains are more powerfully motivated by drug-related cues. This conclusion has been reached by researchers who found that adolescent rats given cocaine - a powerfully addicting stimulant - were more likely than adults to prefer the place where they got it. That learned association endured: Even after experimenters extinguished the drug-linked preference, a small reinstating dose of cocaine appeared to rekindle that preference - but only in the adolescent rats.

The research, performed at McLean Hospital, Harvard Medical School's largest psychiatric facility, was reported in the April issue of Behavioral Neuroscience, published by the American Psychological Association.

Evidence that younger brains get stuck on drug-related stimuli reinforces real-world data. Epidemiological studies confirm that of people in various age groups who experiment with drugs, teens are by far the most likely to become addicted. Thus, the new findings may be useful in developing new treatments for youthful addiction.

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NchronicPain 6 years, 3 months ago

Why are we even talking about cocaine? It addicts everyone teen, adult, rat.... everyone. Marijuana heals people. BIG difference.

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aichempty 6 years, 3 months ago

Cronie,

From the post directly above your last:

"New drug research suggests that teens may get addicted and relapse more easily than adults because developing brains are more powerfully motivated by drug-related cues."

It just says, "drug related cues." Doesn't list marijuana as an exception. Where's your research proving that mj doesn't have the same effect on teens?

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NchronicPain 6 years, 3 months ago

Aich, I didn't claim to have such research. I said, "Marijuana heals people." I have never endorsed teens picking it up, unless they need it for a debilitating condition. I would much rather give my child an organic, cancer-fighting antioxidant, full of rich fatty acids which destroy free radical cells and aid in the function of cell turnover and development, than some over-the-counter, chemically derived, side-effect-ridden, supposedly "safe" medicine. Where is your research that the effect mj has on the brain is harmful at all? Because there is research currently finding that THC helps to generate NEW brain cells and has no proof that it burns any at all, ever..... even in teens. You know how to google, Aich.... google away. But, remember, set down the Maritini, do your best (to no avail I'm sure, but try, please) to lay all your stereotypical thoughts and judgements aside and google the info that is not biased. Look for the info on studies regard just mj. MJ is not anything like cocaine, or any other drug at all for that matter. The study above is valid, I'm sure, but it's regarding cocaine and rats. Not humans and marijuana. Studys on rats and mice never prove a thing to me......

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aichempty 6 years, 3 months ago

Cronie,

I'm glad you feel that way.

I'm testing a new mouse trap. Would you like to hire your kids out for me to test a prototype? It's a lot bigger than the one I plan to use for mice, but I'm sure I can scale it down if the human-size version works.

There's a word for "new" brain cells. It's called "brain cancer."

I've got some pretty good evidence from personal experience with people close to me that alcohol abuse, meth abuse, pot abuse, tranquilizer abuse, cocaine abuse and prescription pain killer abuse impair mental function and decision making ability. Either that, or people who can't make good decisions engage in abuse of the noted substances. Tit-tat-DOH!

So, anyway, send the kids over. I'm sure you won't mind me experimenting on them since you're already doing it. Ooh, uh, make sure they bring their bike helmets. Thanks.

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aichempty 6 years, 3 months ago

Yikes! That's just the tax!

CASH CROP Billions of dollars in the hole, California's legislature is considering a blunt proposal from a San Francisco assemblyman: taxing legalized marijuana sales at $50 an ounce, a move its sponsor thinks could net the state about $1 billion a year. Oregon is considering a similar measure, taxing medical marijuana at nearly $100 an ounce. The taxes could really help excite the states' economies, even if everything else gets sluggish for a while.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/03/31/cities-states-plan-strange-new-taxes-pretty/

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NchronicPain 6 years, 3 months ago

First, you assume I would need to "test" things on my kids..... That is as ridiculous as all of your other ideas, so it doesn't surprise me the slightest. But, go right ahead and continue to trust the studies like the ones you keep referencing. I'm not worried, because I know the truth. You seek it still. You search for it in studies like these and they prove nothing. And your experiences with all these dopers of every variety proves to me nothing either. You are one entertaining poster. I do believe that you are only posting things to get rises out of people. I can only hope that you don't truly feel this way.

Those taxes WOULD help immensely and people will pay them, and if Cali and Oregon do this, kudos to them!! Their state will be much happier and healthier. I would just grow my own!!! (<within the limits of the law that it...LOL)

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Duke_bets 6 years, 3 months ago

Nchron - Aich keeps messing with your posts because you still claim weed 'heals people'. Answer me this..........Were you a pot user before you were medically diagnosed with a disease? My guess is, YES. How many medical marijuana patients were pot heads before dope was prescribed by a doctor? High 90%'s is my guess on that one. Duke bets that he has answered both questions correctly.

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NchronicPain 6 years, 3 months ago

I still stand by my point..... It heals people. Whether they used it before or after being prescribed it makes no difference. It heals people. period.

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Duke_bets 6 years, 3 months ago

Nchron - Being that you have skirted the answer to that question twice, I say Duke bets and wins.

And, yes it does make a difference. Weed smokers will vote pro in this argument and all others will vote con. Period.

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jk 6 years, 3 months ago

Dukey, what odds do we get marijuana will be legalized during this administration?

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Duke_bets 6 years, 3 months ago

100% it won't be legalized within the next 4 years, so no bets are accepted.

You can't place odds on guarantees.

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jk 6 years, 3 months ago

dukey, don't be so sure, your buddy Aich is already thinking about the cash he can put in his pocket if it is legalized. He is probably reading Growing Marijuana for Dummies right now. You may want to bet the yey on this one in these economic times

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aichempty 6 years, 3 months ago

If you look at potential marijuana vendors like you would people licensed to sell liquor, and that's probably a reasonable way for the state to license the sale and collect the taxes on it, it turns out that getting a license to sell the stuff may not be easy. Anyone who has obtained a liquor license around here knows that there's a background check involved, and people with criminal records and alcohol and drug related arrests usually won't get the license.

So, now, wouldn't it be a dadgum total hoot if someone like me was able to get a license to sell marijuana because I've never used it?

Ponder that one for a while.

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honestabe 6 years, 3 months ago

Dont just have the government tax it, let them take most/all of the money from its sale. The govt can hire its own army of weed growers, and take the full 200-400$ an ounce, not just a tax on someone elses profit. It would probably be like alcohol, you can brew your own beer or distill your own spirits, yet most prefer simply go to the liquor store for their fix. Use the money to fight mexican and american based drug gangs, fight drug and alcohol abuse, rehab, etc. Or just take the money and pay for future social security costs.

sooner or later, someone will see how easy it would be to transfer the illegally gained drug trade money over to the government (us). Americas money lust will prevail.

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NchronicPain 6 years, 3 months ago

Ok, Dukey, pat yourself on the back, you figured out that weed smokers will vote pro on legalization.... that was a tough one to figure out. Medical MJ users had no choice but to medicate illegally prior to being approved for a prescription. Due, to close-minded people like yourself, the situation you pride yourself on figuring out was unavoidable. I'd say you are probably right on in your 90% guess, Dukester. It doesn't take a genius to come up with your conclusion, but as I said before, not skirting the question at all, it makes no difference if medical mj patients used it before, we found relief, we sought out the truth after trying every other medicine and found they don't work, we went back to what we know does work. So your point, Dukey, is what? Medical MJ patients smoked before we chose to be prescribed it???? Of course we did. Good job.

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aichempty 6 years, 3 months ago

Cronie,

If marijuana heals, why is there a continuous need for it?

Has anybody ever stopped using medical marijuana when they got better?

Has anybody ever been able to reduce their intake as symptoms decreased?

Marijuana may mask symptoms, but where's the proof it eliminates the disease from the body?

Can you really say that part of the medicinal effect isn't pleasure over the fact that you're "gettin' away wi' sumpin?"

Birth control pills were still new when I was a teenager. There were lots of girls around being treated with oral contraceptives for "irregular periods" when I was in college. Irregular menstrual cycles must have been occurring in epic proportions back in them days, but thank goodness the popularization of latex condoms since the AIDS epidemic kicked in seems to have cured it.

I've heard that wedding cake cures nymphomaina too.

It's just hard for those of us who don't need to stay stoked up on marijuana all day to understand why ibuprofen and all its non-psychoactive derivative forms aren't good enough for most people.

You claim to be male. Okay, I'll take your word for it. Isn't the local population overstocked with boys? Could it be that the need for medical marijuana is highly correlated with households where there's no lady of the house to be concerned with stinking up the place with smoke? How many medical users have to go out on the porch to smoke it? What is the proportion of male to female medical mj licensees?

Let's see some demographics on med mj use listing sex, age, education and income prior to issuance of the license.

I know you can get social security benefits for being disabled as a result of drug addiction. Let's see how the SS disability connection kicks into the mix, and when. Is it possible to smoke yourself into disability payments?

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NchronicPain 6 years, 3 months ago

Wow, you just asked ALOT of questions.

-There is plenty of research supporting the fact the mj is treating diseases.
-And yes, some people DO quit when their problems get better.... if they do.
-Ibuprofen does nothing for nueropathy or GI problems.
-I'd say Medical MJ is presribed just as often for nausea related conditions. It is the strongest, most potent and most effective anti-emetic known to man. -Vicodin and Percocet don't cure anything. -Niether do Tylenol or Ibuprofen. I tried everything.
-MJ is a miracle worker.
-I am married. And my wife does not say anything about me medicating in the house, only crotchedy old bags like you would think of that. Most of time its only vapors that are emitted and that has no residual smell.
-Also, I medicate with tincture and edibles throughout the day. No one has a clue, because I am a responsible medical mj patient. -You can find all the info you want on the Colo Dept of Health's website. Google Colorado Medical Marijuana. Topical skin balms are being made from Cannabis which CURES skin cancer.
-If you knew me, you would agree, that even when medicated, you never know. I am never "stoked up"(<not even sure what that means) on my medication. gauranteed.

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Duke_bets 6 years, 3 months ago

Nchron - 'Had no choice but to medicate illegally'...........That is absurd!

Also, you still are skirting the question. Let's say you're between the ages of 45 and 55. Let's say that you were diagnosed with some form of cancer in your late 30's or early 40's. If those conclusions hold water, why have you been smoking dope for 30 years?

And, you still have not dialed in the definition for cure. Very few medical professionals (1 out of 100) would agree with you.

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aichempty 6 years, 3 months ago

Cronie,

Well, all that sounds pretty cool.

I just can't help the image of Don Nord with an oxygen canula under his hose and the idea of inhaling smoke. It doesn't make sense.

You might be interested to know that I have a loquat tree at my second home near the Gulf of Mexico. Drinking tea made from loquat leaves helps to lower blood sugar and can be used to treat mild diabetes. Also, chewing pine needles is a substitute for aspirin, as is tea made from the needles.

So, there's a lot of support for using plant tinctures and extracts for medicinal purposes. I have found that eating bananas after 8 pm or so will induce spectacularly realistic and colorful dreams (harking back to the 60s when it was claimed that smoking banana peels had a hallucinogenic effect).

It's been a while, but I also discovered that cigar and pipe smoke (not inhaled, but absorbed in the oral cavity) help to dull the pain of a broken heart. Explains why booze and cigarettes are commonly used for self-medication in such cases, eh?

Did you try Marinol? Are there liquid extracts available? Obviously, growing your own is probably cheaper than buying it, even if you have insurance coverage for it (which I seriously doubt).

So, back to the very first post on this thread, you sound like a responsible user and if everyone did it the way you claim to, there would be no problem. My problem with pot is just that I've seen enough dull-witted kids smoking the stuff to know that it's not doing anything for their economic and intellectual development, and neither do alcohol, or vicodin, or any of the rest of it.

President Obama's position on allowing the states to control medical marijuana use as long as the state laws are not violated is completely consistent with the Constitution. Now Congress needs to come along behind and amend the controlled substances act to reflect the executive order. I've got no problems with it under those circumstances.

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NchronicPain 6 years, 3 months ago

Aich, now I see a sensible response. The image of Don Nord inhaling smoke bothers me too.... he should be doing tincture. And our stance about dull-witted kids, and even dull-witted adults, abusing it is the same. It takes a responsible approach to life to handle any sort of mood altering substance.

Now, Mr. Dukeybaby, you have taken the statement you quoted above wrong. Unless you are prescribed medical mj, you are medicating illegally. That is my point their. Maybe my wording was confusing. Also, I never said I have been medicating for 30 years... I am in my 30's now. I know what cure means, you refuse to accept that these instances I speak of happen. It's fine, remain in denial. I will trust the first hand experiences that I've had.

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Duke_bets 6 years, 3 months ago

Nchron - I should have said person instead of you. I was truly using a generic example. And, I have no issues with persons such as yourself. You seem to be an intelligent and responsible individual, although we don't agree on many topics.

I have issues with dealers pulling the medical card out of their sleeve. That was the point of every one of my posts.

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Kristopher Hammond 6 years, 3 months ago

We can agree that Marie Jensen has a medical card, just like NChron. Is Marie a dealer? Where is the proof? Controlled buys? None. Ledgers? Cash? None. A few pounds of stems and shake in a garbage bag. NChron can tell us which part of the plant has the medicinal qualities---buds or stems and shake?

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aichempty 6 years, 3 months ago

Antney,

Hypothetically, why would anyone keep ledgers and cash around to prove they were selling? This lady was a lawyer. She'd know what "evidence" means.

Assuming buds have medicinal qualities, does that make the leaves, stems, etc., free of THC? Can those parts of the plant be processed and smoked? Have they zero value in trade to someone who wants to buy or sell them?

These people are fairly sophisticated in the sense of education, income and culture, although there is a counter-culture flavor to her visits to the Rainbow gathering a couple of years ago (she was quoted talking about it in the Pilot and admitted being at the gathering site). Does it make sense for them to "accidentally" have eight pounds of marijuana trash sitting around when there are so many good ways to dispose of it? Like burning it a few grams at a time? The law must provide a way to dispose of unusable portions of the plant without it finding its way into a school kid's hands, right?

If you had 8 pounds of such trash, could you grind it up and sell it to the kids in the park in Ft. Collins? Just curious. I don't know how it's done, but you seem to be up to speed.

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jk 6 years, 3 months ago

Aich, " I don't know how it's done" I about fell out of my chair when I read this statement on your post. Because of this statement you may want to refrain from opening Aichs Buds and Suds until you learn a little more about things. Its tough to sell a product you know very little about. By the way you can make cheap paper, ropes, shoes and several other useful products with the waste.

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oldskoolstmbt 6 years, 3 months ago

aich is all behind it, as long as it's "LEGAL"...

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NchronicPain 6 years, 3 months ago

Aich-inator writes, "Assuming buds have medicinal qualities, does that make the leaves, stems, etc., free of THC? Can those parts of the plant be processed and smoked? Have they zero value in trade to someone who wants to buy or sell them?"

There is very little THC in the plant matter (leaves, stems, etc) of a flowered mj plant. These parts are considered "unusable". They can not be smoke, ground up and smoked, or any of the above. You could NOT sell it to anyone, really. The plant matter CAN be used to cooked down into butter or veggy oil along with some buds to be added to food. The plant matter alone is worthless in regards to "getting high" or medicating. They DO, however, contain cannabinoids and the other cancer-fighting antioxidants and fatty acids that a medical mj patient gets the fringe benefits of. Do these cannabinoids get one "high"? Nope. But, in regards to medicine this plant material is beneficial. (Marie should've processed it into food immediately, then the idiot cops with ACET would've never known....crap they prolly would've got the munchies while searching the place and ate some of her ganja food!!! LOL)

Also, much to your shagrin I'm sure, there are some very rich, very educated, very sofisticated Rainbow Family members. There is much more to the Rainbow Family than meets the eye, my friend.

LMFAO @ "Aichs Buds and Suds" <best post yet!!!

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aichempty 6 years, 3 months ago

Cronie,

I see you've come down off your high and gotten testy again. We were corresponding like old friends last night. Despite your denials, I guess I CAN tell when you're high, huh? It's when you're being "nice." You see, I've dealt with the mood shifts of drug abusers and alcoholics before, and it ain't that hard to figure out what's happening once you know the signs. I'll bet you have a lot of little "accidents" too, like tripping, losing your balance, knocking over containers and small lapses of memory (which, of course, you don't remember).

By the way, it's "chagrin."

Honestly, I know that if you are suffering from chronic pain, it doesn't take much to set off a bad mood. The same thing happens with decreased heart circulation and lung conditions that cause shortness of breath and fatigue; the systems have to work harder and it leads to chronic fatigue and accompanying mood changes. So, I do understand the effects you claim to suffer and hope the mj helps you more than it hurts.

And as for the Rainbow Fambly, Bernie Madoff was very rich, very educated and very sophisticated. There was much more to him and his family than met the eye.

Overall, I think living in the Rocky Mountains with a community of pot heads beats living with a community of violent addicts in more temperate areas. What happens around here will be interesting to watch, as we see whether the children being raised by substance-dependent liberals can compete for jobs and housing with outsiders whose ambition has equipped them with the education, experience and equity to move to a better neighborhood.

I do know that all the pot heads I knew back in the mid 90s are no longer around. I guess their rentals were sold out from under them and they had to move on. Or they died or went to jail. So I guess we'll see.

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NchronicPain 6 years, 3 months ago

Where did you get that I was testy? My post only explained how the mj plant is used. I wasn't even upset with you, so your ridiculous crap above makes no sense. AGAIN.

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NchronicPain 6 years, 3 months ago

We still could chat "like old friends" if you'd quit making things up about me and comparing me to a bunch of idiots you know. I am nothing like these people. Marijuana does not cause lapses in memory.... maybe a little short-term memory issue here and there when medicated..... but nothing like alcohol or prescription medication does. I don't need to defend myself, but you keep throwing me into these groups, and honestly, it's offending. So, I will stop feeding your notions and replying to your nonsense. It has become less and less entertaining by the day. Good day to you. I hope you find some joy in life through all those judgements and frustrations. I have.

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aichempty 6 years, 3 months ago

Cronie,

Okay; I'm sorry. There's no need to be hostile going either way. I'm honestly trying to learn about this subject from somebody who has nothing to lose by discussing it.

The thing I don't understand is the conveyance of excitement associated with using a medication. Even when I needed vicodin to sleep through the night, I didn't look forward to the feeling I'd get from it and anticipate the next dose. Mostly, it just made me sleep.

I don't know anybody who gets so enthusiastic about taking Pepto Bismol, getting a flu shot or using a suppository. Maybe Viagra is like that, but I don't use it either. But, take the typical intoxicants like alcohol, pot and other recreational drugs, and people act EXCITED and throw a party to use them together. It's got to be the substance causing that joyful anticipatory reaction to an opportunity to use the stuff, and that's why it comes across to a lot of us that a bunch of people would consider themselves lucky to have a disease that would justify a medical marijuana license.

So, can it really be necessary to feel high for the theraputic effects to be obtained? That's the reason there's a danger of abuse, and why it's banned.

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cheesehead 6 years, 3 months ago

There are many prescription drugs where "there's a danger of abuse". I think Nchronic just wants THC to be a schedule 2 (like amphetamines, opiates, etc...) instead of a schedule 1.

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playa46 6 years, 3 months ago

Sorry I haven't posted in a while....

Aich- Okay, it's common knowledge that people steal to support a drug habit in the inner cities.

How is legalization going to help people who have to steal to support the habit? Won't they just continue to steal to buy the legal drugs if drugs are legalized?

Umm... Yes? They would steal even if it was not legalized, which you want. But we could see drug use go down once it is legalized. Also, if we tax it, marijuana will not make dealers so much money, and they will have to find another way. It's harmless, remember?

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aichempty 6 years, 3 months ago

Cheezy,

It must be your lack of memory, or somebody's, I don't recall who that could be either. I think this thread is giving me a contact high.

ChronicPainInMy@$$,

You said, "Umm: Yes? They would steal even if it was not legalized, which you want. But we could see drug use go down once it is legalized. Also, if we tax it, marijuana will not make dealers so much money, and they will have to find another way. It's harmless, remember?"

Wow, you really are using some good stuff. In the first place, just because there are legal dealers, why should people stop selling illegally to kids, and to avoid the tax. And can you honestly say there will be fewer drug users once it's legalized? That's like saying your chances of getting pregnant are lowered by getting married. Now, your chance of having SEX may get lower once you get married, but that's a different problem.

There used to be a big smuggling operation that involved moving cigarettes across the Canadian border to avoid paying high taxes on tobacco. I don't know which way the stuff was moving, but the point is that taxing something is not the way to get people to use more of it, and that includes legal marijuana. Besides, unless the legal marijuana contains some kind of "taggant" or is sold only in cigarettes instead of in bulk, how do you stop someone from buying ONE legal container of pot and then refilling that one with tax-free illegal pot? Somebody said it's $200 an ounce. An ounce is not very much bulk. I guess the tax cops could check the "use by" date on the package and anything over six months old could be considered contraband. If you look at cigarette and liquor bottles, there's usually a dated tax stamp on the package.

The Maryland tax cops used to set up on the border with DC at a popular DC liquor store, wait for people to come out with a large quantity (like for a party, or a case of wine), and stop Maryland residents when they crossed into Maryland and write them a ticket for the Maryland tax, plus a fine.

So, taxing pot and selling it legally to adults won't shut off the contraband black market any more than you can stop people from buying fireworks in the states that sell them and bringing back here to fire off on the 4th of July.

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trump_suit 6 years, 3 months ago

If your assumptions about black markets are true, then how is the experience with prohibition explained?

During prohibition, our country experienced a large growth in gangs, guns and violence. As the repeal of prohibition was discussed and debated, many people made exactly the same argument that you are making here. Problem with the argement is this:

When prohibition ended, much of the black market money flowing to the gangs dried up and the gov't was able to get a handle on the problem and brought bootleg liquor largely under control. Today bootleg liqour remains a concern, but the problem is very small in scale.

Today's black market drug economy dwarfs the police budgets to fight it. The culture that has been built around this black market delivery system is a larger problem to our economy than the drugs have ever been. Most of our citizens make the intelligent decision to leave them alone. The legallity of these substances does not make that decision for most people.

Of those individuals that have chosen to do drugs in one form or another, we lose a percentage of them forever. It is a sad reality of our world and we should do everything in our power to help those people willing to accept it. I just don't beleive that the numbers would be that much larger than they are now. Most Americans know better don't they?

In the 40 years we have been fighting the drug war, how much progress has been made? If it was a business bankruptcy would have been declared. The current crime and punishment approach is not working and it is time to try another way.

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aichempty 6 years, 3 months ago

Trump,

During prohibition, much of the alcohol consumed was imported from legitimate producers in other countries. It never had been illegal to deal in alcohol anywhere except here. Joseph Kennedy (father of JFK, RFK, Chappaquiddick Ted and all the rest) made his fortune bootlegging (importing Irish whiskey) during prohibition. There were people who brewed the stuff up themselves, but the actual mix of foreign label legitimate spirits and moonshine is something I don't know.

If pot is legalized and American producers start growing the stuff, what are the foreign producers going to do? They're going to continue smuggling the stuff as long as people are willing to buy it. As long as kids can't buy pot legally, they'll buy the illegal stuff. They will also continue to operate illegally in other countries where pot production and sale are not legal.

Again, I really don't care if it's legalized for adults. I just don't see how that's going to keep kids from getting it and using it just like they do today.

Antney,

How sad that people need pot to feel happy.

Turf wars over tobacco and alcohol? None I know of over tobacco except the Cuban trade embargo. Alcohol, now, that's a different story. Appalachian moonshiners still do business, especially in dry counties. My father investigated a case where a man was shot and placed on the railroad tracks to make it look like a train accident. I went with him, unaware that I was along for additional "protection." We were warned to leave and not come back "snooping around." If we wouldn't have been missed by people who knew where we were going, I'd imagine we'd have ended up attached to a concrete block at the bottom of the lake. One of my uncles discovered just such a body when the head broke free and was found floating down the river (you need to punch some holes in the skull to let the gas from decomposition leak out if you dispose of a body that way). All of this occurred less than 15 miles from a place where any adult could purchase any kind of liquor, wine or beer legally -- but at twice the price of "shine."

Oh, and as for my ability to afford things, it's because I've worked for a long time, lived within my means, given up things that don't really matter (jet skis, motorcycles, convertibles, marijuana, cocaine), and planned for the future. I can account for every cent I spent, and where I earned it. So far that's working out a lot better than waiting for marijuana to be legalized so I can feel "happy."

You're a slave to a plant, Dude. I know other people who will do without something they want rather than make the sacrifices necessary to have what they want. I guess they smoke pot to "be happy" instead.

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playa46 6 years, 3 months ago

Aich- I think you were under the influence while reading my post. First of it...I wrote it, not chronic...

And yes, I can honestly say there will be fewer users if it is legalized. Look at Norway or Sweeden. We see marijuana is legalized, and yet, they have a huge drop on uses. Yes, people use it, but not so much here in America. Because it is illegal here, drug dealers make so much money, and people often use it, a lot. If it were legal, drug dealers would not make anymore money, and uses would shoot up, and then down. It's kinda like how prohibition went, get it?

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Kristopher Hammond 6 years, 3 months ago

I couldn't have made my point better than you. Alcohol turf wars only occur where it is illegal (dry counties). Is there really a market for cheap illegal moonshine anywhere other than the dry counties? Is that what the teenagers of Steamboat are buying? If gangs could make a profit selling alcohol and tobacco they would be doing it right now. Tax it, regulate it, and it will become just like tobacco and alcohol--available in stores with a gov't stamp. Making it legal will drive the price down by increasing supply (crops in open fields not basements) and reducing the cost of production and delivery (no smuggling, guns, payoffs, etc.). The gangs can't make a profit under those circumstances any more than they can by selling cheap moonshine. You are a slave to the narrow minded assumption that the legalization argument is advocating use. Do the pro-choice people think that everyone should have an abortion? Do free speech? advocates think everyone should yell profanities? Do freedom of religion advocates think everyone should be Hare Krishnas?

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Matthew Stoddard 6 years, 3 months ago

Aich- Why would kids go out of their way to buy "illegal" pot from outside the U.S.? They don't do that for alcohol now. They get a fake ID or get an adult to walk into a liquor store for them. Why would pot be any different? It's up to compliance checks, just like the police currently do.

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peace 6 years, 3 months ago

Dont the "Authorities" have an obligation to keep that information private? You are correct about HIPAA. That is mostly for insurance, or as I say money.

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Kristopher Hammond 6 years, 3 months ago

Aich: Just admit that you were wrong and move on! Your posts make it obvious that you haven't thought anything through and you are caught every time. Instead of making half-baked proclamations, think it through and then decide what you want above your name. We will all respect that, but your constant shots from the hip are missing the mark by a long shot.

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aichempty 6 years, 3 months ago

Matthew,

So, suddenly, every guy growing a garden in his basement will stop it and give up the income rather than sell to kids at a discount? You and I can't just start brewing alcohol and marketing it out of the trunks of our cars because it happens to be legal. How many people around here do you suppose are supplementing their income selling pot? They'll just stop doing it if adults can buy it legally? I can't see that happening.

Playa,

I have searched for information on "legalized" cannabis in Norway and Sweden. Sorry. It's not true. Cannabis is illegal in both countries. They may have "decriminalized" possession of small amounts, but trafficking carries harsh penalties. So, if the cops are not busting people found with small amounts, then yeah, that would result in lower statistics on use, wouldn't it? They're just not tracking it unless the amount is sufficient to support a charge of trafficking. I did find a study from Norway in 2008 which claimed that the majority of users were single men in their twenties, lacking education and living alone. The Norwegians believe that pot use is correlated with schizophrenia. Sounds right.

Antney,

If I was the only person who disagreed with you, pot would be legal, wouldn't it? Stop wasting time with me and write to your Congressman. What's the worst that could happen; the feds might show up at your front door looking for drugs? And that would be a problem because . . .

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NchronicPain 6 years, 3 months ago

Aich-a-maniac wrote:

"ChronicPainInMy@$$,

You said, "Umm: Yes? They would steal even if it was not legalized, which you want. But we could see drug use go down once it is legalized. Also, if we tax it, marijuana will not make dealers so much money, and they will have to find another way. It's harmless, remember?"

First of all, must've had a few too many cocktails prior to posting again. Go back, playa said noted above, I didn't say this.

Who's a pain in who's @$$? I think you have completely made a mockery of this comment section.

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aichempty 6 years, 3 months ago

Chronic,

Nope, no coctails. Just didn't care enough to double check it.

I actually started responding to you, deleted it, and neglected to put in Playa's name.

As for the rest, 206 posts later, you finally got it. Bingo!

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playa46 6 years, 3 months ago

Sorry Aich- I meant Finland and the Netherlands. And Canada as well.

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NchronicPain 6 years, 3 months ago

Aich, not only did you make a mockery of this comment section, you made a HUGE mockery out of yourself. Good job!! Now, whenever you post anything in the future, everyone will remember that you are just a troll, that posts for reactionary purposes. You just like to see people get flustered, even at the expense of your own diginty. You are such a fantastic role model. I hope the local teens have been reading this and strive to be a better human being than you.

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aichempty 6 years, 3 months ago

Cronie,

You might want to read Gulliver's Travels and The Divine Comedy (Dante's Inferno) as examples of entertaining satire that reveal unintertaining truths.

I think the pain has gone to your head, and that's okay. You can't help what nature has done to you.

I hope that today's teens develop an ability to go through life finding the facts and forming opinons for themselves, because reliance upon other people leads to being misinformed and/or cheated and/or exploited for sex and money.

Marijuana doesn't make anyone younger, smarter or more healthy than they started out. The same is true for alcohol and tobacco. Society has attempted to manage the cost and risk of consuming these substances because too many people are irresponsible and use them in a way that causes harm. Life is hard enough without creating your own speed bumps along the way.

Playa,

Once again, it's obvious that statistics on use derived from police and court records would fall following decriminalization. Look again at the penalties for trafficking outside of what the government allows. In the Netherlands, the "legal" pot they sell is cut 50% with tobacco. Sounds like a very healthy choice, no?

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NchronicPain 6 years, 3 months ago

"In the Netherlands, the "legal" pot they sell is cut 50% with tobacco."

No it is not. People in Europe CHOOSE to mix the marijuana with tobacco. The actual medical marijuana in the Netherlands and Holland, which is dispensed through pharmacys like every other prescription medicine, is actual flowers, i.e. buds, and is grown in controlled government sanctioned facilities. It is NOT mixed with tobacco. In the coffee shops and Cannabis Clubs, the "legal" marijuana is sold in all forms ingestable. These places may sell marijuana mixed with tobacco as an option, but not all of it is this way. I think the tobacco is there to lessen the effect of the marijuana, but I'm not sure. But, tobacco ruins anything medical.

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aichempty 6 years, 3 months ago

I think I remember a piece on 60 minutes where they talked about the government of The Netherlands buying paintings from artists and stashing them in a warehouse because there was no market for art, but the government had to give them a way to make a living.

Those windmills are to keep the water pumped out of the land which lies below sea level.

Can these people really have a clue about how to do anything sensible?

Their lowest income tax rate is 33.5%, which includes a "social security" type payment and then value added tax of 6% on food and essentials, and 19% on non-foods and luxuries.

And by the way, cannabis is still controlled in The Netherlands, with amounts greater than 5 grams for possession and 5 plants being the upper limit without prosecution. Contraband plants are confiscated when discovered, even if 5 or less. There are ongoing anti-trafficking efforts and it's unlawful to sell marijuana to the coffee shops which sell it 'legally.'

So, when you say marijuana is legal in The Netherlands, it depends on what your definition of "is" is.

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peace 6 years, 3 months ago

Colorado's medical marijuana constitutional ammendment makes it clear that a doctor can not "prescribe" marijuana, they can however, recomend its use to allieviate symptoms of only a handful of medical conditions. Here is a link to the states website:

http://www.cdphe.state.co.us/hs/Medicalmarijuana/marijuanafactsheet.html

Marinol contains synthetic THC. That is only one type of cannabanoid out of the many types that are in the plant.

It is supposedly a confidential registry however this paper has published the names of at least 3 people who are out of the 17 people listed as patients, which IMO is a violation of HIPPA laws and Amendment 20 itself. I wonder when the pilot will publish the other names?

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aichempty 6 years, 3 months ago

Peace,

That'll be when the other 14 people get busted for having too much pot in their possession.

The HIPPA law is federal, and so is the Controlled Substances Act, and since there is no recognized use for marijuana under the CSA, how can it be a HIPPA violation to disclose information on marijuana possession? Nobody said that anyone is using marijuana, only that they possessed unlawful quantities of it.

The Supremacy Clause of the U S Constitution trumps the individual state constitutions on matter where the U S Code makes the matter one of federal jurisdiction. We have already seen a case locally where one of our judges tried to use the Colorado law to hold people in contempt for enforcing the federal law, and the federal court stepped in and settled the matter as one of federal jurisdiction.

I think you'll find that the people who have been identified as having medical marijuana permits voluntarily disclosed that information to the authorities. Nobody got it from their doctors. Once the patient makes their use of a medication public, it would be hard to make a case that HIPPA laws had been violated.

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NchronicPain 6 years, 3 months ago

Peace, us patients wish it was so. You would think that law enforcement would exert there own sense of common decency and keep the name of the patient anonymous. But, they don't. We're criminals in their eyes. First thing they love to do is expose who the criminals might be. They don't even wait for the facts or court cases to play out, they just feel it is their duty I guess. But, nowhere are they obligated to keep it anonymous. I would hope that the local police and DA of such a small, close-knit community would value and respect the citizens of their jurisdiction more than to blab the names of medical marijuana patients to the newspaper. But, it doesn't surprise me that they've fallen short of my expectations again.

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aichempty 6 years, 3 months ago

peace,

I'd say that once a person uses their medical marijuana license as an excuse to have the stuff, it's open and public knowledge. In this case, properly handling the excess marijuana would have removed the probable cause to go down that road in the first place.

And, let's not forget about the mushrooms.

When people do something that gets them booked on criminal charges, it often has the unfortunate side effect of disclosing private matters that are embarassing, to say the least. In some towns, names of men arrested for soliciting prostitutes are published in the newspapers; so how many wives and girlfriends and colleagues have found out about a man's dirty little secret that way? Unfortunately, breaking the law leads to disclosure and that comes with the territory.

Despite Cronie's post above, I believe the facts are that the only names of people who are medical marijuana users that have been released are those who were charged with crimes related to the marijuana. And, if it's "legal" to have the stuff for medical purposes (which it is under Colorado law, and Department of Justice policy under the new administration has decriminalized it as long as state laws are obeyed), what's the real harm? These guys are on this forum spewing about how great marijuana is, but they still feel the need to hide the fact they use it? Why would that be, if it's "legal," and they're doing nothing wrong?

If a person was using Prozac or Viagra and decided to sell some of the extra in a bar downtown to cover the copayment on their medical insurance, and got caught, that would unlawful. In a case like that they shouldn't expect confidentiality.

Now, maybe the compassionate thing would be to list the substances as "Schedule X controlled substance" instead of giving the name of the drug, but then you're expecting something out of the individual police officers and DAs known as "compassion" and they usually reserve that for "victims," if at all.

People who've had their names in the newspaper know that, generally, there is false information included in the story. Sometimes it's harmful and embarrassing

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NchronicPain 6 years, 3 months ago

Aichinator says, "I'd say that once a person uses their medical marijuana license as an excuse to have the stuff, it's open and public knowledge."

Thats what YOU say. But, prescriptions are confidential and local law enforcement has to call the Colorado Department of Public Health and Environment to verify the card holder. There is only 2 ladies down at the State who have access to the list, otherwise no State or Federal agencies have access to the list. Only when someone is found to be in possession of marijuana is the name verified as a patient. At this point, if we lived in a world with respectful and honest police officers, we as patients would hope that the police would stand by the vows they recited, and uphold the laws of the State they work for. But, they don't.

And by the way, I don't hide the fact that I use it. Everyone in my life that cares and understands knows all about it. They are happy for me and see the benefits outshine the benefits of any other medicine. And they are not users of it.

Due to the fact that I am enmeshed in the advocacy of medical mj and have close to 100 friends and acquaintances that are medical marijuana patients, I can honestly say that I have heard of more instances where the mj patients have been given back their medicine, their names were kept confidential, and, in one instance, the Police called a patient back to the station so the Chief could personally apologize for the trouble inflicted on the patient. Keep in mind, these patient were always with in their limits.

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playa46 6 years, 3 months ago

Sigh

Aich, you went on to say how people in the Netherlands have no sense. But this is not the Netherlands we are talking about, this is America. Now, I know it is hard to hear with your head in your a$$, but try and listen to what we are talking about next time. Go do some research please.

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trump_suit 6 years, 3 months ago

One thing for the record. The statutes that legalize medical marajuana require that the patient takes extra precautions to keep others from knowing. It is not legal to toke on your deck in view of your neighbors, or in the safeway parking lot. Only in the privacy of your own home.

The way that our local enforcement has handled some of these cases is definitely up for question. This will be especially true if the charges against the Jensens turn out to be artificially magnified as some have suggested. Most bothersome was the slant put out by the police and newsmedia that the Jensens were supplying children with these substances. Was this necessary, and was it appropriate?

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aichempty 6 years, 3 months ago

Chronie,

I have prescription drugs, and so does my wife. When we travel with them, we are sure to keep them in the original containers showing our names and the expiration dates. It is unlawful to possess controlled substances unless you have a doctor's prescription AND the prescription shows that you are currently authorized to possess it. After the expiration date, the law requires you to throw it away.

The reason we do this is to avoid being jacked up by some small-town Nazi for possession of controlled substances in the event that something else causes us to have contact with the cops, like being robbed, or being in an accident, etc. The prescription is an easy way to prove we're authorized to have the stuff, and hiring a lawyer and getting bailed out of jail and having the original bottles Fedexed from home or getting faxes from our doctors and all that crap is the hard and expensive way.

So the bottom line is that if I get stopped by the cops and searched for any reason, and they find pills in my luggage, I can use the prescription to prove it's okay. Having a person show their medical marijuana license and getting it verified is exactly the same thing.

Playa,

Where am I wrong? I've done the research. The cops in the Netherlands decriminalized possession of 5 grams or less because of the expense of booking and prosecuting offenders. It was done to save resources for use on bigger fish. The same thing has basically been done here in Colorado when they issue a "ticket" for possession of small amounts of pot instead of making an arrest and taking the person to jail. Wake up, mon frere, you're dreaming.

Trumpster,

I can't figure out why we need an independent police force (ACET) since they don't seem to do anything but show up after the crime is discovered by someone else except for a couple of arrests last year. I'm sure the ACET guys are fine men and loyal public servants, but whatever we're paying for them, it doesn't seem to be worth it from what we see in the news. For all we know, they might as well be sleeping. Maybe we could do a TV show about them and call it "The Nod Squad." Honestly, I wonder why we even have them except maybe they are too "experienced" to be answering calls for loose dogs. In the Navy, we used to call it "R O A D," for "retired on active duty." I'd like to be wrong about them, but where's the hard proof to show they're worth the mone the taxpayers spend on them?

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peace 6 years, 3 months ago

In the navy they no doubt told you to wash your hands after using the bathroom...others just dont pee on their hands.

The alchohol vs marijuana myth continues to be a lullabye to popeye.

No one in possesion of a medical marijuana permit wants to have the disease and symptoms which pot alleviates. Most have tried the pharmacutical alternatives that you and your lovely wife are still using. They change to pot for many reasons, costs mainly (guessing), safety, and efficacy.

I have yet to read of one instance of anyone dying from an overdose of marijuana. Popeye Keep your pharmacuticals, I suggest Xanax prior to posting for you, but throw the pills out that make you feel smart. Those are not working.

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NchronicPain 6 years, 3 months ago

"Keep your pharmacuticals, I suggest Xanax prior to posting for you, but throw the pills out that make you feel smart. Those are not working."

Best line yet. LMAO

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playa46 6 years, 3 months ago

Aich-

"Where am I wrong? I've done the research. The cops in the Netherlands decriminalized possession of 5 grams or less because of the expense of booking and prosecuting offenders. It was done to save resources for use on bigger fish. The same thing has basically been done here in Colorado when they issue a "ticket" for possession of small amounts of pot instead of making an arrest and taking the person to jail. Wake up, mon frere, you're dreaming."

You are wrong when we are talking about here, in America. I said do some research so that you would see the actual effects of marijuana use. Did you know that people have used it for a thousand years? Yet, look at where we are now.

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