Charlie Vogel: Forgotten history

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— Ideas are very powerful, they shape civilization. The socialist agenda of the 20th century comes to my mind. When Mussolini came to power in Italy in the 1930s, he proposed many of the same ideas as Barack Obama and the Democrats are pushing forth: attacking business, increasing government spending, (excessively) taxing productive people and subsidizing those who are not, and promoting a sense of grievance and envy among the populace, class warfare as it were.

If you remember correctly what happened when Mussolini and Hitler were able to implement their socialist agenda (Nazi is short for National Socialist Workers Party) the human race had the most catastrophic war we've ever seen.

The same goes for the 1960s here in the United States. With Lyndon Johnson's "Great Society" initiatives, crime rates skyrocketed, we had double-digit inflation, ghettoes in the inner-city were ravaged by drugs and gang warfare, many of the cities rocked by riots during those days still have not fully recovered to this day.

This is what's at stake, folks, in this most important presidential election. We cannot allow emotions and "feelings" to get in the way of a sound decision of who you are going to vote for Nov. 4. Obama and the Democrats, their ideas are dangerous. They breed intolerance and deliberately tear apart the family and faith.

You think your country is on the wrong track now, wait until you see a President Obama giving money to people who don't deserve it. Wait until you see Camera Magic! visits to terrorist heads of state (Iran, Syria, et al). We tried that too in the 1930s, we still had World War II.

Charlie Vogel

Steamboat Springs

Comments

Hadleyburg_Press 5 years, 11 months ago

Charlie, We you trying to say that Obama would take us closer to economic dirigisme? It would somewhat explain your use of fascists as the political ideological comparison. A better example perhaps, would have been the comparative use of the French Socialist Party and its current impact of the economic state and overall condition of modern France. Definately not something we would want to emulate and one could easlily draw correlations between the this group and the Obama camp.

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424now 5 years, 11 months ago

Charlie,

We will soon see if logic a reason can win out over the reactionary emotionalism that the media is deftly spoon feeding the liberal and democratic camps. Perhaps enough of the liberal camps will recognize John McCain as the moderate Republican experienced enough to handle our current state of foreign relations.

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seabirth 5 years, 11 months ago

while not labeled "conservative commentary", this one might be the most amusing yet. don't vote based on "emotions and feelings"... yet fear is not a "feeling".

don't vote for obama, because he secretly is a nazi along with all the other democrats. as if the conservatives haven't sunk low enough in their smear attacks on patriots and anyone who dare disagree with 8 years of wasteful spending, lies, attacks on freedom, and making our enemies stronger.... but believe the lies and smear... the republicans want you to be too scared to vote with your brains, so they use lies comparing americans who disagree with nazis and/or nazi appeasers. some republicans do not even know the history behind their smears. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YK0d8E...

yeh, let's not talk or use diplomacy, because the recent policy of being a bull in an international china shop has worked so brillantly. heck, mccain even states we should have dialogue with hamas... but this was before his most recent flip flop and becoming a fear monger who will do and say anything to be elected. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXp-_RKTzo8

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kielyj 5 years, 11 months ago

I have always been against literacy tests as a test for voting. After reading this nonsense i am reconsidering

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bestfreeheel 5 years, 11 months ago

I'm the author of this awful "conservative" screed (Obama and Hitler in the same piece, I guess I'm a racist pig hell-bent on eugenics, my own words people, have a sense of humor!). In case you web minoins are wondering, I'm voting for Bob Barr for President, assuming he wins the Libertarian Party's nomination.. And seabirth, is there anything in the piece that suggests I'm an apologist for the last 8 years? I've written letters that were published in this rag demanding that they remove Ann Coulter's column! And I'm not playing on people's fears, I'm simply recalling some "forgotten history" and making parallels. It's truly alarming that people in this country have no sense of history. People my age (26) can't even recall that there was a devastating war in (French) Indochina that killed upwards of 3 million people in the middle of the 20th century, including 58,000+ of our own soldiers. Most cannot recall the massacres that took place between the Hutu and Tutsi tribes of Rwanda. And how about the former Yugoslovia, the purge of Chechneya, the military overlords of sub-Saharan Africa? It's hard to talk to people, man...

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upstream 5 years, 11 months ago

A sense of humor? You have got to be kidding me. There is nothing humorous (or insightful) about comparing Barack Obama or his supporters to Nazis.

You seem to be quite deliberate (in a 26 year old kind of way) in your attempts to get a rise out of people with this garbage- and, yet, you fail to realize how many of us in this community know the history of the events you attempt to co-opt in your reactionary litany far more intimately than you ever will. And, frankly, we don't take kindly to irreverant, naive and ignorant comparisons to the Nazi Party.

You are so far off your rocker here freeheel, I am frankly amazed the Steamboat Enquirer published this sophmoric, inflammatory rant. Well, maybe not that amazed.

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OneFly 5 years, 11 months ago

This fish wrapper proves yet again where it's coming from. No wonder Amerikans are so stupid.

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Hadleyburg_Press 5 years, 11 months ago

Nazism, commonly known as National Socialism, (German: Nationalsozialismus), refers primarily to the ideology and practices of the Nazi Party under Adolf Hitler; and the policies adopted by the government of Nazi Germany from 1933 to 1945, a period also known as the Third Reich. The official name of the party was Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei (NSDAP) - "National Socialist German Workers' Party". The Nazis were one of several historical groups that used the term National Socialism to describe themselves, and in the 1920s they became the largest such group. Nazism is generally considered by scholars to be a form of fascism, and while it incorporated some elements from the political left, it formed its most solid alliances on the POLITICAL RIGHT.

Nazism was not a monolithic movement, but rather a (mainly German) combination of various ideologies and groups, sparked by anger at the Treaty of Versailles and what was considered to have been a Jewish/Communist conspiracy (known in the vernacular as the DolchstoÃlegende or "Stab-in-the-Back Legend") to humiliate Germany at the end of the First World War.

Among the key elements of Nazism were anti-parliamentarism, ethnic nationalism, racism, collectivism, eugenics, antisemitism, OPPOSITION TO ECONOMIC LIBERALISM AND POLITICAL LIBERALISM, anti-communism, and totalitarianism -Wikipedia-

Your poor use of historical analogies renders your essay mute on an intellectual level. You could have used far better historical comparisons to get your semi-valid point across that socialism, as an economic system, is a failed system.

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Hadleyburg_Press 5 years, 11 months ago

Correction "Were you", not "We you". More coffee please...

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dogd 5 years, 11 months ago

The libertarian party would put the ABSOLUTE worst form of government in power- multi-national mega-business.

This form of government would like to tax like no government, including Sweden, has ever done. We've seen it in our history.

You wanna see the return of serfs and masters-just vote libertarian.

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424now 5 years, 11 months ago

Vote for McCain and pray for peace thru action, instead of chaos from retreat.

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dogd 5 years, 11 months ago

kielyj: After such a bold proclamation of your apparently incandescent literacy... why don't you give us a tangible example. At this point your literacy is not a fact in evidence.

424: Agree.

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bestfreeheel 5 years, 11 months ago

Obama is a fantastic orator. So was Hitler. Oooohh, did I offend any of you Obama supporters, I'm so sorry! Well, not really. You think my little rant was bad, wait 'till we get to the general election, folks! And upstream, you are wholly correct in the assumption of trying to get a rise out of you bleeding-heart liberals. I'm extremely surprised that this damn newspaper even published my work, which I consider to be quite substandard compared to my other letters. I know the comparison is flimsy, but I felt I had to say something. This Obama worship that I've been seeing - 60,000 in Oregon a few days back - kind of makes me sick, because I'll bet 50,000 of those people don't even know who they're voting for, they're just voting for "hope" and "change." Well I don't buy that outright, any major party candidate for president I am very suspect of, especially candidates that ill take more of my money for government largess. I see what the damn (federal) government is doing with our tax dollars (read anything Grover Norquist has written) and I want nothing of it! VOTE LIBERTARIAN!

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bestfreeheel 5 years, 11 months ago

Obama is a fantastic orator. So was Hitler. Oooohh, did I offend any of you Obama supporters, I'm so sorry! Well, not really. You think my little rant was bad, wait 'till we get to the general election, folks! And upstream, you are wholly correct in the assumption of trying to get a rise out of you bleeding-heart liberals. I'm extremely surprised that this damn newspaper even published my work, which I consider to be quite substandard compared to my other letters. I know the comparison is flimsy, but I felt I had to say something. This Obama worship that I've been seeing - 60,000 in Oregon a few days back - kind of makes me sick, because I'll bet 50,000 of those people don't even know who they're voting for, they're just voting for "hope" and "change." Well I don't buy that outright, any major party candidate for president I am very suspect of, especially candidates that will take more of my money for government largess. I see what the damn (federal) government is doing with our tax dollars (read anything Grover Norquist has written) and I want nothing of it! VOTE LIBERTARIAN!

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dogd 5 years, 11 months ago

You can say that again. But it doesn't make sense. McCain for pres.

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ybul 5 years, 11 months ago

dogd,

actually, it is the managed capitalism that we have today that enable the mega business' of the day. Tax incentives to borrow and more to invest in the stock market. These incentives, have allowed almost free money to multinationals.

I can not see how you think that the ideology of less government would lead to more taxation. McCain is nearly identical ideologically to Clinton or Obama.

You should pick up Ron Pauls new book and read about real solutions that would put us back on track. Before there is little hope of restoring this republic.

I was totally against even thinking libertarian from previous encounters with an individual. However, after actually analyzing the policies, I believe they are the best environmentally, financially and socially.

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Matthew Stoddard 5 years, 11 months ago

So Obama was a great orator just like Hitler, huh? I guess that makes Reagan akin to Hitler, too. Bush is more of an oraltator that would put Tara Reid to shame!

And vote Libertarian? That's worse than voting for Nader!

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424now 5 years, 11 months ago

Matt, Actually to vote libertarian or Nader or anything other than the two main parties is akin to Nero's efforts toward entertainment while Rome burned around him. There have been time when the libertarian party had the slimmest of chances but I don't think they have a chance in this go round. The only way the Libertarian party has any effect at all is if the wade in on one side or the other.

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shadow 5 years, 11 months ago

Hillary has an occasional valid point, Obama is a charismatic speaker to the masses, no argument there. However he's been sidestepping a head-on debate with her for months because his "visions" lack substance.

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dogd 5 years, 11 months ago

ybul: I am not new to this. I have been outraged at the ownership of policy by speculative opportunists since the present structure was coming together in the 70's.

That is the key fact: those interests are in control of policy. To fight or change the corruption and policies which have benefitted the speculative interests requires a type of honest government which I believe John McCain will move toward- he will do what is correct for the nation, rather than the hedge fund.

If you think the way to rein in mega-multi-nationals and speculative interests is to shrink government-I'll give you a couple tinfoil hats (one for Mr.Paul).

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ybul 5 years, 11 months ago

The point was about how they grew so large. Federal legislation provided an incentive to take out as large a loan on ones home, and then put it in the stock market or bonds, however, you could not use that money to invest in yourself.

I think Dr. Paul's message is to shrink the size of the federal government, and solve the issues at the local level. Impose an impact fee on coal fired power plants for harmful emissions (mercury, etc.), this would internalize all costs of production and not share them with all no matter how little they use.

Keep the freedom to use vitamins, which CODEX in CAFTA is trying to regulate, requiring a prescription.

Also on the speculative interests would be reigned in if sound monetary policy were enacted. The free market does not set interest rates any longer, the federal reserve does. Money no longer is a store of wealth as it used to be, it is created with the punch of a key.

I suggest that you actually read his writing, but then again, you think McCain will save the day. Given that he has violated Federal Election Laws that he wrote, I see no reason to trust anything spouting from the war mongers mouth.

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ybul 5 years, 11 months ago

Actions speak louder than words.

McCain at an illegal fundraiser in England. Held by a prominent international banking elite, who helps to debase the US dollar by its printing. Also Rothschild he could care less who rules a country as long as he gets to print the currency.

http://www.onenewsnow.com/Election2008/Default.aspx?id=86866

Maybe those special interests have an influence on him. Including his wife's strong ties with the oil industry.

McCain stated himself in the early 80s that we should not be building nations. At was a strong opponent of invading Lebanon, stating it would just encourage others to hate us.

Maybe he has early alzhiemers, he sure does espouse the views that he hates asians, and that will help with world relations. Can't imagine how that will play in the media, during the general election.

However, the media seems to report only what they want to report to push their agenda.

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424now 5 years, 11 months ago

Ybul

Spouting's such as, Quoting Senator John McCain;

"I favor lower taxes, less government spending, and less federal bureaucracy."

"I prefer to give American families more control over their health care decisions"

"Senator Obama has said, if elected, he will withdraw Americans from Iraq quickly no matter what the situation on the ground is and no matter what U.S. military commanders advise. But if we withdraw prematurely from Iraq, al Qaeda in Iraq will survive, proclaim victory and continue to provoke sectarian tensions that, while they have been subdued by the success of the surge, still exist, and are ripe for provocation by al Qaeda. Civil war in Iraq could easily descend into genocide, and destabilize the entire region as neighboring powers come to the aid of their favored factions."

"The consequences of our defeat would threaten us for years, and those who argue for premature withdrawal, as both Senators Obama and Clinton do, are arguing for a course that would eventually draw us into a wider and more difficult war that would entail far greater dangers and sacrifices than we have suffered to date."

I don't know sounds kind like common sense to me.

Senator John McCain's voting record. http://www.votesmart.org/speech.php?can_id=53270&around=&type=search#Results

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424now 5 years, 11 months ago

Ybul,

Last sentence 2nd paragraph in your link,

"The complaint is very similar to the one filed in connection with a concert performed in early April by entertainer Elton John for Senator Hillary Clinton's (D-New York) campaign."

All Politicians are influenced by special interest. They do not operate in a vacuum. It is more important the votes they make and the bills they author.

Re: Lebanon, Different time, different situation.

Please provide a link to an article that quotes McCain stating he hates all Asians.

As to the media, Agreed When an effort is made to review as many separate media outlets as is possible it becomes obvious who is promoting who. This effort will also give a person views to both sides of several issues. The result is a better understanding of a larger picture. The cost is exposure to ideas one may find abhorrent.

Votesmart is a nonpartisan website giving facts and voting records. There is ammunition there for all the separate political factions.

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ybul 5 years, 11 months ago

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b77_1201852316

I think Hilary is about the most corrupt politician there is. She has a pending trial in CA for fundraising abuses also.

Lebanon helped to create the situation we are in today. People stated we would be in trouble if we pulled out of Vietnam, it is a very prosperous country which we trade with today.

If you read why the Islamists hate us, it is not because of our freedom, it is because of our intervention into their affairs.

Getting off our oil addiction, through wind turbines (which could supply all our energy needs), renewable oil sources from waste not food sources, in the initial stages of development (this year deployment), would go a long way to eliminating their funding and reducing the violence as they would need us, more than we need them, opposite of today.

Having a bottom up political system will solve the problems much more efficiently, and yet with McCain we are headed to a more orwelian state. I hope that Hilary or Obama win, so the right actually stop some of the crazy legislation that Clinton I tried to pass and failed, and now bush has pushed through, (ie. the tracking of animal movement, under the guise of disease prevention, REAL ID, Etc).

I suggest looking Dr Paul's writings as they make a lot of sense. It is unfortunate that he is a terrible orator and the corporate media structure hate him as he would ruin their corporate welfare.

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424now 5 years, 11 months ago

We at least agree that Hillarity is not to be seriously considered. Which in my opinion is where we are headed.

Yes Lebanon and well, the crusades led us to where we are today and mothers milk leads to crack cocaine.

We differ as to why Radical Islam is gunning for the most powerful nation on earth. They see it as the one sure way to win the world. Pick a fight with the biggest kid on the block and once he is beaten the rest will fall into line.

I am all for alternative sources of energy. I want to see development of Wind farms and solar systems. Alternative fuels...

Radical Islam will attempt to force its view on anyone in there path until they are stopped or they succed in taking over the world,

wait a minute?

That tactic sounds familiar. Hmmmm conquer the world by force destroy anyone who doesn't fit your ideal...

Don't look up ybul, big brother is watching.

As Mr. Paul was a complete blank for me I took the time to listen to several cached interviews and read a good deal last night. I still don't have enough to form an opinion of the man but simply put he just doesn't have the chops for the presidential race.

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