Paul Potyen: Time for a change

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I feel compelled to reply to Paul Epley's commentary in the July 6 edition of the Steamboat Pilot & Today. First of all, Mr. Epley, let's not talk about 232 years of economic progress (much of which was made possible by the genocide of the original inhabitants of this country and the subsequent appropriation and abuse of the land, not to mention the real economic leverage that slavery offers). Let's just talk about the last eight years.

Unless you're a millionaire, your economic situation is worse now than it was eight years ago, by pretty much any standard of measurement. Your guys had their chance, and they blew it badly. It's time for someone who has some different ideas about how to bring us together under the principles of democracy, rather than plutocracy (not to mention that he can speak using correct grammar without embarrassing himself and offending others).

Paul Potyen

Steamboat Springs

Comments

Joe_Mama 6 years, 5 months ago

Joe thinks the numbers don't matter, since the real issue is the imperialism, some of that "Manifest Destiny" nonsense.

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freshair 6 years, 5 months ago

For those interested in the subject whose minds have not been set in Far Left, Politically Correct concrete:

Were American Indians the Victims of Genocide? http://hnn.us/articles/7302.html

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Hadleyburg_Press 6 years, 5 months ago

Paul, Is it safe to assume that you are a cultural and and/or moral relativist, based upon your statement that (we are) "imposing our flavor of democracy on others."?

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JazzSlave 6 years, 5 months ago

Paul

You're assuming facts not in evidence, with all due respect. My vote is not motivated by fear. It is the result of my having judged McCain as the least objectionable of two bad choices.

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Matthew Stoddard 6 years, 5 months ago

Freshair's lemming take: "Everyone else had slaves, so we did, too!" Gee- and from a Townhall link. How Bore-ish of you. Or is that Bore-ing?

And which movie was he reviewing in that link?

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freshair 6 years, 5 months ago

You got it all wrong again, as usual, Son. That's a bad habit you got of continually misreading and misinterpreting the written word. Real bad. The expression predates the book. Alpert was using it in his appearances in the 60's. And now you know the whole story.

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JazzSlave 6 years, 5 months ago

Which isn't to say McCain CAN'T be bought & paid for. Charles Keating, anyone?

It doesn't matter who's in DC - concentrations of money & power=abuse & corruption, regardless of party affiliation. The Republicans stormed the gates in 94, running on solid conservatism & with the best of intentions. Look at 'em now.

Get ready for President Obama - watch yer wallets!

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dogd 6 years, 5 months ago

Mr. Poyten:

While you still remember how to spell plutocracy (do this right away, so you won't have to look it up again) why don't you check out the sweet lady who resides on Obama's campaign staff as his national finance chair.

Her name is Penny Pritzker, and some would have some justification to call her(Superior Bank ) one of the worst offenders in the massive subprime crisis.

It is ironic that the Repub guy McCain is Far more likely to rein in the corrupt influence of banks and hedge-funds on our fine nation. He is not bought and paid for by them. Obama IS.

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stmbtprof 6 years, 5 months ago

paul....amen...good comments..thanks for wiritng and thanks for your music...

and to the above..dogd..have you bothered to investigate mcCain and his Barbie doll wife....addicted to drugs, destroyed McCains first wife's marriage, stole drugs from a charity she started...and please mccains main guy calling us a nation of whiners and that we are just mental regarding the current recession...and as far as your spelling comment..well anyone who is anal can spell these days with spell check...the rest of us have lives and just want to get the word out as fast as possible so who cares about spelling in an electronic blog....

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dogd 6 years, 5 months ago

Jazz: My comment did not hint at sainthood for McCain, but DID note a VERY significant red flag regarding Obama's team makeup. He is not as advertised-the banking and hedgefund "plutocrats" OWN him. Not his true-blue $5 contributors.

I feel that McCain has the courage to act in the national interest- rather than blindly follow HIS party template which is also the personal property of the banks and hedgefunds.

Our wallets are going to be hammered even if McCain gets in- the coming banking bailout leaves no other possibility.

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JazzSlave 6 years, 5 months ago

dogd:

I don't disagree. I'm just not as enthusiastic about McCain as you are. I think he's the 2nd coming of Bob Dole - another honorable man whose political philosophies are steered by the wind on his wet finger.

That said, I'm voting for him for the same reason I voted Bush in 2000: he doesn't suck as hard as the other guy.

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justathought 6 years, 5 months ago

Jazz... "political philosophies are steered by the wind on his wet finger", could be a good thing if the "wind" happens to be the American people!

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JustSomeJoe 6 years, 5 months ago

Dogd - John McCain was one of the Keating Five. He took $112K in campaign contributions from Charles Keating in 1987. McCain's wife and Father were partners with Keating in a shopping center ($360K investment in 1986). McCain also accepted free travel from Keating as well. The bailout of Keating's Lincoln S&L cost taxpayers $3.4B. McCain paid for some of those trips years after the bailout (only after he got caught).

Most of McCain's staff are lobbyists or former lobbyists. McCain has been bought and paid for many times over. He defines the "paid for" candidate. I'm not defending Obama's choice of finance chairs, if that's even true. I don't really care. Do a little reading and you will find that McCain is a lobbyist's best friend. Now that he is the GOP candidate, I wouldn't be surprised if he reverses his support for the McCain-Feingold act, just like he reversed his position for his OWN immigration bill.

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stmbtprof 6 years, 5 months ago

Thank you Joe mama fresh air is spouting Engfish which is the higher the amount of generic superfulous bs spouted by pseudo intellectuals who say historians and census" you must work for Bush McCain group..you are so good at clouding the REAL FACTS and statistics and hding behind bs rhetoric....please go back to NYC or Marin county and take your pontifications which really cite no legitimate academic sources within context...

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Matthew Stoddard 6 years, 5 months ago

Neat! What does that have to do with slavery and our country's part in it?

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JazzSlave 6 years, 5 months ago

Obama's lead is 2.7% nationally, according to pollster.com's average - but it's significantly more in the crucial states. http://www.pollster.com/08-US-Pres-GE-MvO.php

Get ready for a Socialist in the White House.

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freshair 6 years, 5 months ago

"'genocide' of the 'original' inhabitants?"??? Leaving aside the question of just who the 'original' inhabitants of the North American Continent were/are, it appears Mr. Poteyn is ignorant of the fact, as are all of those who are so addicted to crying 'genocide' when discussing the treatment of the Indians, that constant warfare and massacre was the rule of interaction between all the different tribes on this continent. The biggest cause of deaths was the exposure to European diseases which were unknown on the continent at the time and to which the tribes had no built-in immunity.

The census of 2003 revealed over 4 million people claiming Native American heritage. Hmmm, as it is estimated the population of the North American Indian tribes were around 100,000 when the first Europeans arrived, those so fond of applying the word 'genocide' to describe European-Indian interaction, obviously don't know what they're talking about and are coming from the usual Far Left, Radical We-Hate-America club.

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SilverSpoon 6 years, 5 months ago

Freshair, Republican's have a way of speaking just like your post: a long winded story with no point.
Republicans love to put trucker-john on a pedestal, and state how they feel his pain; and use that as justification to drill anywhere and everywhere. Maybe we should open marabou up for oil development, that'll help trucker-john more than some stocked fish ponds or free grazing cattle.

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freshair 6 years, 5 months ago

'Joe thinks the numbers don't matter, since the real issue is the imperialism, some of that "Manifest Destiny" nonsense.'

In the Real World, numbers always matter. And the only nonsense is the incorrect and inappropriate use of buzz words like 'genocide' and 'racist' by those PC brainwashed naifs.

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freshair 6 years, 5 months ago

potyen, you are a very foolish and naive person as is clearly evident from your comments. Please name for me one event in the history of mankind which involved two ethnic groups competing for control of land and resources which did not result in violent confrontation. And while you're trying to respond to that one, let me chide you one more time on your incorrect and misuse of the word 'genocide.' Long before the white man ever arrived on the American continent, the Indians were involved in never-ending wars between various tribes with constant slaughter. Ritual slaughter of captives was commonplace.

The greatest cause of indian deaths resulting from European arrival was due to diseases which the Europeans brought with them which were previously unknown on the continent and to which the Indians had no immunity. Also a very common occurence in the history of mankind.

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freshair 6 years, 5 months ago

silverspoon...no point? Only if you have a serious problem with Reading Comprehension the English language. Have somebody explain the 'point' to you on the so-called 'genocide' of the American indian tribes.

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Joe_Mama 6 years, 5 months ago

Joe thinks freshair is missing the point, which is even if were 25 natives, Europeans arrival and behavior were acts of imperialism.

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Joe_Mama 6 years, 5 months ago

A little McCain facts for all you who support him:

Fact : Sen McCain voted against nearly every effort to increase funding for healthcare and disability benefits for wounded soldiers

Fact : Se. McCain voted against the interests of disabled American veterans 80 percent of the time.

Fact : Se. McCain received a D+ voting grade from the Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America (when Obama got a B+, and Clinton, to her lasting credit, an A-)

Fact : Sen McShame consistently voted against expanding mental healthcare and readjustment counseling for service members returning from Iraq and Afghanistan, efforts to expand treatment for injured veterans, and proposals to lower co-payments and enrollment fees veterans must pay to obtain prescription drugs.

Fact : McCain doesn't want to talk with Iran because the unpopular president of Iran has referred to Israel in unflattering terms? During the cold war, we engaged in diplomacy with the U.S.S.R. even though they called us "capitalist dogs."

Fact : Sen. MCain has mismanaged his campaign funds to the point of bankruptcy.

Fact: Sen. McCain accuses Sen. Obama of being an " appeaser", even though he admitted he would hold talks with Hamas.

Fact: Sen. McCain supports the Bush war in Iraq, suggesting that we may have to stay there for "100 years", although now he says he supports troop withdrawals after the heat came down on him for his previous statement.

Fact : Sen. McCain finished near the bottom of his class at the Naval Academy, ignores warnings during the Vietnam police action regarding SAMs, gets shot down as a result, and somehow equates being a POW as a qualification for being president.

Fact : Sen. McCain's wife refuses to turn over her tax returns, but Bill Clinton is required to turn over his.

Fact: After being released from the POW prison,, he endlessly cheats on his wife, then eventually marries a homewrecking millionaire, and uses her families wealth and influence to get elected to the Senate, leaving his old family behind.

Fact: He doesn't even get through his first term before the scandals start flying, and the the S&L, Keating Five business is brought to light, of which McCain is neck deep.

Fact: As a matter of public government record: McCain made at least 32 tapes of propaganda for the Vietnamese Government.

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freshair 6 years, 5 months ago

stmboatprof...'which really cite no legitimate academic sources within context.'

It's pretty evident that your 'prof' tag doesn't imply professor(although given the widespread dumbing-down in education of recent decades, who knows). I'm sure the academics cited, were you fully able to understand the English language, would find your characterization of them as not legitimate very amusing.

Historian David Henige has argued that many population figures are the result of arbitrary formulas selectively applied to numbers from unreliable historical sources, a deficiency he sees as being unrecognized by several contributors to the field. He believes there is not enough solid evidence to produce population numbers that have any real meaning, and characterizes the modern trend of high estimates as "pseudo-scientific number-crunching." Henige....argues that the scanty and unreliable nature of the evidence renders broad estimates suspect, and that "high counters" (as he calls them) have been particularly flagrant in their misuse of sources.... Low estimates were sometimes reflective of European notions of their own cultural and racial superiority, as historian Francis Jennings has argued: "Scholarly wisdom long held that Indians were so inferior in mind and works that they could not possibly have created or sustained large populations." At the other end of the spectrum, some have argued that contemporary estimates of a high pre-Columbian indigenous population are rooted in a bias against aspects of Western civilization and/or Christianity... Robert Royal writes that "estimates of pre-Columbian population figures have become heavily politicized with scholars who are particularly critical of Europe often favoring wildly higher figures."

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paul potyen 6 years, 5 months ago

Thank you all for the informative and entertaining responses to my letter. I appreciate that you found my letter important enough to take the time to do so.

Dogd and freshair: I didn't have to look up "plutocracy" in order spell it correctly, although in general I feel it's not a bad idea to do so if one is in doubt. And I take your point about my use of the word "original." How about "indigenous"? Interesting that you chose to refute my letter primarily based on grammar and English, rather than economics. (But as long as we're talking about spelling, my last name is spelled "Potyen.") My implicit point here was that as a society we now believe that slavery and genocide are not appropriate ways to grow our economy. (Maybe at some point we will also include launching long, expensive invasions of third-world countries for the stated purpose of imposing our flavor of democracy on others.)

stmbtprof and justathought: Thank you for your encouragement and support.

JazzSlave: For the most part I agree with you. However I intend to vote based on hope rather than fear.

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stmbtprof 6 years, 5 months ago

freshair ...where do you get your info and what is the % of bloodline...native americans lands, culture, and lives have been destroyed..just like you and yours are destroying Stmbt...also good red herring in steering away pauls original comments....hmmm...and honestly..you want someone like Mccain running our country and he is clueless on how to even email...please....

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freshair 6 years, 5 months ago

I get my facts from historians and my population figures from the 2003 government census:

Historian David Henige has argued that many population figures are the result of arbitrary formulas selectively applied to numbers from unreliable historical sources, a deficiency he sees as being unrecognized by several contributors to the field. He believes there is not enough solid evidence to produce population numbers that have any real meaning, and characterizes the modern trend of high estimates as "pseudo-scientific number-crunching." Henige....argues that the scanty and unreliable nature of the evidence renders broad estimates suspect, and that "high counters" (as he calls them) have been particularly flagrant in their misuse of sources. Although Henige's criticisms are directed against some specific instances, other studies do generally acknowledge the inherent difficulties in producing reliable statistics given the almost complete lack of any hard data for the period in question.

This population debate has often had ideological underpinnings. Low estimates were sometimes reflective of European notions of their own cultural and racial superiority, as historian Francis Jennings has argued: "Scholarly wisdom long held that Indians were so inferior in mind and works that they could not possibly have created or sustained large populations." At the other end of the spectrum, some have argued that contemporary estimates of a high pre-Columbian indigenous population are rooted in a bias against aspects of Western civilization and/or Christianity. Robert Royal writes that "estimates of pre-Columbian population figures have become heavily politicized with scholars who are particularly critical of Europe often favoring wildly higher figures."

Since civilizations rose and fell in the Americas before Columbus arrived, the indigenous population in 1492 was not necessarily at a high point, and may have already been in decline

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colobob 6 years, 5 months ago

McCain is the lesser of two evils when all is said and done. If for no other single reason he gets my vote because of his experience and position on national security matters. He understands that to "cut & run" is a flawed agenda. National security comes first. Obama just doesn't get it! Toss in his refusal to wear a flag pin (until recenty), rev. Wright, his wifes declaration of not being proud of this country, his guns & relioion remarks, and a host of other eye opening comments and actions and he has lost any consideration I may have given him for my vote.

McCain in '08! Fear? I think not. If you want fear vote for Obama!

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stmbtprof 6 years, 5 months ago

fresh air and really you only write for the pompous and still quote just fractions of the truth. I may not be a professor but with 3 graduate degrees from highly regarded academic institutions I could be....you on the other hand are a wanna be..and my such an elitist racist snob with your comment on manifest destiny...please read some writings by some native American writers and not just right wing liberals like yourself. oh yes and toss in McCains temper his loose moralsand Brbie doll wife, his lack of knowlege f computer , not knowing the difference between sunni and shiite..oh yes what a marvelous man...not...and wearing a flag pin or getting shot down doean not a president make..In fact i would prefer someone who was a little smarter and didnt get his plane shot down...

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freshair 6 years, 5 months ago

stmboatprof...'I may not be a professor but with 3 graduate degrees from highly regarded academic institutions'.

Good Grief, man! And just what might be those 'highly regarded academic institutions' which have seen fit to bestow their stamp of approval on the likes of yourself?
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stmbtprof 6 years, 5 months ago

Oh yes and google native American+genocide and see how many citations are listed from a variety of sources...yours source is buried in the past. and i notice you have ignored the slavery remark...waiting to bring that back are we fresh air? By the way your name calling of mr. POTyen is yet another example of someone who can not get their way via intellect and reason..it is call propaganda and fallacies ie. argumentum ad hominem....paul Potyen is neither naive nor foolish but appears to be someone well educated, diverse in talents, and not afraid to sign his name to his writing.

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Matthew Stoddard 6 years, 5 months ago

colobob- Your post was just full of the fear tactics that the Far Right I distance myself from espouses: "If Obama wins, he'll raise your taxes!" "If Obama wins, we'll cut & run from Iraq and the terrorists will win!"

Yes, and if McCain wins, "he'll want to keep us in Iraq for as long as it takes- even 100 years, if necessary." (I believe that was the way he actually put it. Most people forget the "if necessary part.) "He'll also keep taxes so low so we continue to run up a deficit like never before."

Sounds like "Be afraid," to me, coming from both sides. I do applaud that you at least gave Obama any consideration before you dropped it, though. You say that national security is paramount; well, in the Preamble to the Constitution, it reads:

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America." (Ahhhhh, memories- I still remember the tune in School House Rock! Heck- it's the only way I can remember the whole thing! LOL!)

National Security and promote the general welfare are both in there, so I consider them equal. You just can't have one without the other, the way I see it was intended.

Obama has already denounced Wright, just as McCain denounced the comments from his talking head. A flag pin is decoration to me, just like however many colored ribbons we're supposed to wear, which would outweigh the ribbons on McCain's uniformed chest. Did you also know that a lot of places online that sell/make US flag pins aren't even located in the US. Personally, if wearing a flag pin was such a big deal, I'd like to know that they were manufactured start to finish in the USA. Not sure where Congress gets their pins, but I wouldn't be surprised if the were made in Canada, home of deserter.

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Dukebets 6 years, 5 months ago

Jazzslave - I give you credit for admitting your guilt by voting for Bush. However, voting for McCain with no justification is simply irresponsible. Instead of voting for Bush or now voting for McCain, you should have stayed out of the polls. Also, by stating McCain is the least bad, you obviously don't have a clue about the current state of the econonmy and where it is headed. McCain and the Republicans will keep us in Iraq for another 10 years. The economy will go further in the toilet and the late 70's will seem to be a great era compared to what were heading for. Did you support the Vietnam War and the way the American (Republicans) Government handled that one? Do you realize the people of the MiddleEast have been at war since before Christ. The USA, the Bushes and McCain's can not stop that. The best that will come of this is that we'll figure out a way to use our own resources.

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Joe_Mama 6 years, 5 months ago

Oh, and this is the same Thom Sowell who agrees with Limbaugh's comment that volcanoes do more damage to the ozone layer than humans, right ?

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freshair 6 years, 5 months ago

Actually, kielbasa, it's your lemming response that is predictable. Does it go against your membership in the Hate-America club to be reminded of the 6 'inconvenient' truths regarding slavery that Medved so eloquently lays out? What a silly question, of course it does. Nothing says it better than:

'While the United States (and the British colonies that preceded our independence) played no prominent role in creating the institution of slavery, or even in establishing the long-standing African slave trade pioneered by Arab, Portuguese, Spanish, Dutch and other merchants long before the settlement of English North America, Americans did contribute mightily to the spectacularly successful anti-slavery agitation... Nowhere did idealists pay a higher price for liberation than they did in the United States of America. Confederate forces (very few of whom ever owned slaves) may not have fought consciously to defend the Peculiar Institution, but Union soldiers and sailors (particularly at the end of the war) proudly risked their lives for the emancipation cause. Julia Ward Howe's powerful and popular "Battle Hymn of the Republic" called on Federal troops to follow Christ's example: "as he died to make men holy/let us die to make men free." And many of them did die, some 364,000 in four years of combat-or the stunning equivalent of five million deaths as a percentage of today's United States population. Moreover, the economic cost of liberation remained almost unimaginable. In nearly all other nations, the government paid some form of compensation to slave-owners at the time of emancipation, but Southern slave-owners received no reimbursement of any kind when they lost an estimated $3.5 billion in 1860 dollars (about $70 billion in today's dollars) of what Davis describes as a "hitherto legally accepted form of property." The most notable aspect of America's history with slavery doesn't involve its tortured and bloody existence, but the unprecedented speed and determination with which abolitionists roused the national conscience and put this age-old evil to an end.'

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stmbtprof 6 years, 5 months ago

freshair..once again you prove your ignorance...please citing a columnist...I don't think so...obviously you havelittle else to do..hmm must be retired or a relator since the housing maarket is in the dumper...i know slavery is wrong and the manifest destiny wasnt a joke..please dont try to cnvince anyone with your laborious writings and handpicked rightwing numbskull citations

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Matthew Stoddard 6 years, 5 months ago

So, was "except slaves" left out of the "all men are created equal..." or did they leave out "but after creation, we own you"? You & Michael Movieman can sugarcoat it all you want. As we did with Cabaret, you seem to be singing the Billy Joel tune to different words:

"We didn't start the fire it was alway burning..." an ownership brand into my slaaaaaave! Everyone else was doing it, So we followed suit since the mindset took rooooot.

Yeah- and after the Civil War to free the slaves it was still about a century of half-citizen status & being segregated purely by color. Them's progress for ye! And we still have people burning crosses in this day and age.

Yes, folk- it's "Bore: The Sequel!" In the words of Bush- "Bring in On!" LOL!

OOOOHhhhhh, time for some fun, kids! Been holding my urine for this type of match for a couple months, now! Wonder who'll get banned this time?? LOL!

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colobob 6 years, 5 months ago

That would explain a lot! maybe a good #2 would be in order! A clear your head sort of thing may bring you back to the world of civility vs insult when others don't see your particular point of view. Many including myself respond to civility rather than insults and accept opposing viewpoints as opposing viewpoints rather than insults & innuindos. Try it, you might find people at least are willing to listen to your point of view rather than discount it, they certainly will be more receptive even if they don't agree with it. And yeah, I still miss sbvore (sp), so what? I've also explained about fear or cowardace once before, you have the same offer. Just so we're clear, I fear no mortal man, just my maker. Believe what you will. Should you decide to respond with dignity and respect I will offer you the same. Either way have a good life.

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Matthew Stoddard 6 years, 5 months ago

colobob- It isn't you personally that is espousing fear, but the words are meant to. That's why I put them into context with what Far Left says. It all says the same:

"If you don't vote for me, the other guy is gonna get you killed in war/take your wallet so you're poor." Same dance, different song. step left, snap; step right, snap; repeat

I don't believe things will be any worse under Obama than under McCain. Neither is my choice at this time.

and as I told SBC about missing the Bore, to paraphrase Al Bundy when Peggy asked if he missed her:

"With every shot so far, Peg."

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freshair 6 years, 5 months ago

Ah, nothing like getting the spin on what it's like to be black in America relations from Soul brother #1, aka kielbasa. Hey, newsflash, the Democratic candidate forPresident is a black man. Wow, well that cliches it. What an evil society we are. Let's hear what my favorite, informed and knowledgeable African-american commentator, Thom Sowell has to say:

Facts shatter visions

'A RECENT Census Bureau study of incomes in the United States not only reveals some interesting facts about the economic well-being of Americans, it reveals even more about the mindset of our times, especially among the intelligentsia.

Amid pages and pages of tightly packed statistics about what percentage of households get what percentage of income, there is one brief paragraph saying that the average family household now earns about $50,000 a year. If you dig through enough tables, you will eventually discover that married-couple families average more than $56,000 a year and, when the wife works, over $66,000.

These incomes are higher than what we are used to seeing because the usual household income statistics include many households with only one person, or households where the only adult is a single mother, perhaps working and perhaps on welfare. Not surprisingly, these kinds of households bring in much less money than households where there is a married couple. In other words, working makes a difference. How startling is that? Or how unfair?

Yet there is such a heavy vested interest in the notion that American society is grossly unfair that statistics concentrate overwhelmingly on what percentage of households get what percentage of the total income -- with very little attention to the per capita income that shows how the average American's standard of living is rising. For example, this Census publication, with dozens of pages lavished on income disparities, mentions in one brief sentence that the real per capita income of whites rose 13 percent from 1989 to 1999, while the real per capita income of blacks rose 24 percent during that same period.

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freshair 6 years, 5 months ago

Wait a minute! What about the failure of American family income to rise? What about the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer that we hear so much about in the media and in academia? What about the "racist" society that is holding blacks back or at least leaving them behind?

The growing inequality in incomes over time is no more mysterious or sinister than the fact that incomes are rising. As Alan Reynolds of the Hudson Institute has pointed out, rising wages and salaries mean a growing inequality between those who work and those who do not work. High-income families have more people working and they work more hours per year.

The big problem with household statistics is that households have been getting smaller for years and black households are smaller than white households. Indeed, low-income households in general are smaller than high-income households.

The illusion of income stagnation comes from the fact that two people in a household today earn not much more than three people earned a generation ago. That is still a hefty 50 percent rise in real per capita income -- which may be why more people can now afford to go live in their own households.

Playing games with household income statistics enables the political left to keep hyping poverty, even as genuine poverty is declining to a point that would endanger the political agenda of the left, if the public understood.

When all else fails, liberals and leftists can fall back on "racism" as the all-purpose explanation for all black-white differences in income, education and other social factors. Even here, however, their task is no longer as easy as it once was. Rising rates of intermarriage and the widespread popularity of black and other minority public figures like Oprah, Colin Powell and Tiger Woods makes it hard to keep pretending that things are still the way they were back in the days of the Selma marches and the Birmingham bombings.

It is even tougher when you take a hard, close look at the statistics. QueryLogic Corporation in California has organized vast amounts of data from the 1990 Census on CD-ROMs, and from it you can tabulate the incomes of people with a wide variety of ancestries. It turns out that people from Barbados living in the United States -- almost all being black -- have higher incomes than white Americans.

More than one-fifth of all Asian American families have incomes of $100,000 or more. What does that do to the all-purpose explanation of racism? What does it do to the claim that only whites have a chance in the American economy?

No wonder the Census, the media and academics tiptoe around certain statistics. A whole political vision could collapse if the facts become widely known.'

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Matthew Stoddard 6 years, 5 months ago

5 Decades of properity sure makes up for almost 3 centuries of slavery/half-citizen status. Woohooo!!! I'll be waiting on your defense of the Catholic Crusades next! "Vote for Jesus or Die!!!" By golly- that almost sounds Diddy-like!

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colobob 6 years, 5 months ago

Matt if there was a third choice I would consider their positions as well. Unfortunately at this time there is not and so I must follow MY conscience. My conscience says vote for McCain. Despite all those apposed to his presence I still miss svbor. I enjoyed the links that were supplied in an attempt to substanciate his point of view. I didn't necessarily agree with all of them, however it did expose me to a different perspective and since I try to remain open to other viewpoints I at times found them to be enlightening.

Hey svbor, come on back! Not all wish you gone.

Never cared much for "Married With Children," not even sure if that was the name of the show. Tend to spend more time watching both the History (history major), Discovery, and Nature channels for entertainment. Maybe it's an old far* thing I don't really know. It holds my interest. Have a nice evening.

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Matthew Stoddard 6 years, 5 months ago

colobob- Try this link. Plenty of independents out there. If everyone voted for who they actually thought would be a good choice instead of a choice that is "electable" we might have better representation instead of a 2 party system.

http://www.votesmart.org/election_president_search.php?type=alpha&stage=&party=&sort=party

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bolanger 6 years, 5 months ago

freshair- your 100,000 population figure doesn't seem plausible. Salmon rich northwest....millions of bison...thousand miles of east coast seafood...rich agricultural land inland...mound villages all along the southeast into missouri...etc...etc. You assumption that the native americans did not know how to thrive in this rich and varied landscape is faulty.

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LookoutJoe 6 years, 5 months ago

freshair, my friend, you continually razz people on this blog for being part of the 'Hate-America Club.' If there even was such a group, people like you would be the reason there is an America to hate. You justify some of the worst human rights violations in history by stating that we didn't invent the problem, we just went along with it, so don't blame us. Then, in your long quote from some column, you change your stance completely, now saying that we actually fixed the problems. Furthermore, in your quote, which states things in a way that can't be bettered (according to you) lies this little line.

'Julia Ward Howe's powerful and popular "Battle Hymn of the Republic" called on Federal troops to follow Christ's example: "as he died to make men holy/let us die to make men free."'

Believing that Christ's example is bettered by no one is just foolish elitist, Republlican philosophy. Your buddy with his imaginary friend says things that sound good, but when those two dictate political policy, theres a real problem.

Your party and their philosophies are the problem. We should admit our mistakes and learn from them, not invade countries half-way around the world for powers sake; Not claim devine influence in all we do.

You're kind of a dick, too

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colobob 6 years, 5 months ago

Great list Matt, the only problem is that at this time there are no real contenders. As we get closer to the elections, we'll see who the front runners are on the Independant ticket. Until such time when someone credible has a real chance of winning I'll stick with McCain. Otherwise I would be wasting a vote and in effect would end up supporting someone (Obama) else by not voting my conscience for one of the front runners.

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freshair 6 years, 5 months ago

hey bubba, you're a little late to this party. Please refer to my earlier link, Were the American Indians the Victims of Genocide by the noted academic/historian Guenter Lewy. And read ALL of it.

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Joe_Mama 6 years, 5 months ago

Joe thinks the use of the term "genocide" is a red herring.

Again, the issue is the imperialism shown by European settlers.

And bubba, you're absolutely right about learning from our mistakes. Unfortunately, right wing religious zealots like freshair would rather ignore reality and cherry pick information that they think supports what they think they already know, which, more likely than not, they learned from pieces of human garbage like Rush Limbaugh or Jerry Falwell [Joe recognizes the Limbaugh-ism... "America-Haters"]. People who refuse to accept reality are the true "America-Haters". Or perhaps they're just ignorant.

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freshair 6 years, 5 months ago

Jojoe, I really do enjoy your childish and transparent attempts to divert the focus to issues other than those under discussion. But that is to be expected from someone whose chosen form of communication is to refer to him/herself in the 3rd person. Now, if you can provide a link to Sowell's opinion on the ozone matter giving full context, it would be most helpful.

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Matthew Stoddard 6 years, 5 months ago

freshair- is Joe_Mama diverting it back to the slavery issue, though? Funny how you diverted away from that when you couldn't piece together the whole "all men (except those for sale & wearing irons) are created equal" part. Why don't we get back to that little tidbit?

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Joe_Mama 6 years, 5 months ago

freshair, you are one to speak of childishness. Firstly, my 15 year old does a better job of sounding condecending. I'll drop the 3rd person for now, since it's humor seems to be more than your tiny little brain can comprehend. You have proven yourself over and over to be just another shill for the "conservative" [ meaning facist] movement in this country, and Matthew has once again just exposed your hipocrasy.

Now as for your boy, Sowell:

Syndicated columnist Thomas Sowell (New York Post, 1/14/94) used the volcano theory as Exhibit A to illustrate Limbaugh's "very well-informed and savvy understanding of the political issues of our time." "While far more pretentious people have been joining the chorus of hysteria over 'global warming,'" Sowell wrote, "Limbaugh pointed out in his [first] book that one of the high readings of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere came right after a volcanic eruption--and volcanoes can put more gases into the atmosphere than the entire human race."

The alert reader will notice that Sowell has mixed up global warming and the ozone layer, two different problems. Still, Sowell concluded of Limbaugh, "It is obvious that the man has done his homework--and done it well."

This came from FAIR, which stands for Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting. You can Google it, although I doubt you have any concept of either fairness OR accuracy in reporting, given your Limbaugh-esque leanings.

Wanna chat about your misconceptions regarding slavery ?

Wanna answer my claim that Paul's use of the word genocide is a red herring, when the real issue was European imperialism, by people much like you that thought that Gawd had given them the right to invade another's country and claim it for their own ?

Probably not, since your debate style remains the same when you attempted to debate religion with me. Is your behind still sore from that one, as well ?

LOLOLOLOL

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freshair 6 years, 5 months ago

So good, So True....

Thom Sowell, distinguished African-American academic and columnist:

'When all else fails, liberals and leftists can fall back on "racism" as the all-purpose explanation for all black-white differences in income, education and other social factors. Even here, however, their task is no longer as easy as it once was. Rising rates of intermarriage and the widespread popularity of black and other minority public figures like Oprah, Colin Powell and Tiger Woods makes it hard to keep pretending that things are still the way they were back in the days of the Selma marches and the Birmingham bombings.

It is even tougher when you take a hard, close look at the statistics. QueryLogic Corporation in California has organized vast amounts of data from the 1990 Census on CD-ROMs, and from it you can tabulate the incomes of people with a wide variety of ancestries. It turns out that people from Barbados living in the United States -- almost all being black -- have higher incomes than white Americans.

More than one-fifth of all Asian American families have incomes of $100,000 or more. What does that do to the all-purpose explanation of racism? What does it do to the claim that only whites have a chance in the American economy?

No wonder the Census, the media and academics tiptoe around certain statistics. A whole political vision could collapse if the facts become widely known.'

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bubba 6 years, 5 months ago

Freshair, your claim of non-genocide is pathetic. The massacres of Native Americans are taught to US school children as Battles, so it evokes the image of strong buffalo hunters on horseback fighting and losing to a superior army, when in fact the superior army was often opening fire on camps of men, women and children, which doesn't make nearly as good of a movie as a 'battle.' When thousands were rounded up and forced to walk the Trail of Tears in winter without adequate food, clothes or shelter, it was the elements that killed them, but you can't pretend that it wasn't due to our displacing them. Similarly, if (as Medved claims) 1/3 of the slaves destined for America died in transit, you can't say 'it's not genocide, because we didn't mean to kill them.' They were rounded up and forced to make a journey against their will. Perpetrators of genocide have tried to manipulate the definition to exclude themselves for centuries, but it is all the same thing.

I am not an America-Hater by any stretch of the imagination, but your attempts to hide our history do not benefit anyone except your conscience, and denying history is almost sure to allow it to happen again.

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bubba 6 years, 5 months ago

I will leave you with some quotes on America's Indian Policy:

George Washington: 'The immediate objectives are the total destruction and devastation of their settlements. It will be essential to ruin their crops in the ground and prevent their planting more.'

Thomas Jefferson: 'This unfortunate race, whom we had been taking so much pains to save and to civilize, have by their unexpected desertion and ferocious barbarities justified extermination and now await our decision on their fate.'

General Philip Sheridan: 'The only good Indians I ever saw were dead.'

Do not attempt to re-write history, we came, took their land, they protested, and died. Plenty died to disease that they had not developed immunities to, fine, but we are not without blame. Admitting mistakes and learning from them is admirable. Denying them in the face of insurmountable evidence is not just dumb, it is an almost definite way to ensure that we repeat the mistakes.

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spukomy 6 years, 5 months ago

"Unless you're a millionaire your economic situation is worse than it was eight years ago, by pretty much any standard of measurement."

How can anyone make this claim for ALL non-millionaires. I for one have a better job, a nicer ride, less debt and a brighter future than I had 8 years ago. So do most of the people I know. Working hard, having goals and sidestepping misfortune go a long way.

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Joe_Mama 6 years, 5 months ago

Oh what the heck, let's, just for fun, debunk Medved's racist article [which reads like a David Duke rant]:

1] Medved actually thinks an argument about how the ancient Greeks and Mesopotamians practiced slavery are worth considering. You'd think someone who's presumably read the Old Testament once or twice in his life would appreciate the progress that humans have made in applied ethics since then. By 1776, for instance, European civilizations had given up the practice of stoning disobedient children. Ironically, this is his strongest argument in the whole article. 2] Medved contradicts himself with the next of his "6 reasons". Didn't he just claim that slavery was universal ? How could it be universal and "limited" at the same time ? Slavery was NOT limited in America AT ALL. The first American colony to legalize slavery was Massachusetts (in 1641); the first slave revolt in English colonial territory was in 1712 in New York. Slavery existed EVERYWHERE in the New World - everywhere there were people with enough money to buy other people. Then he claims that slavery only existed for 89 years in the US. apparently he can't do math any better than he can reason. This argument is nonsense anyhow, it's like saying "Well, Manson was only a cult leader for 5 years". Ridiculous. 3] Here Medved seems to be saying "The horrible conditions African slaves were transported under and the resulting conditions they were FORCED to live under couldn't have been THAT bad, 'cause a dead slave isn't worth as much as a live one." This is such a despicable line of thought, I don't even need to comment on it. 4] Now this fool seems to be saying that slavery wasn't such a bad thing because "not everyone got rich off it". Are you freakin' kidding me ? 5] I almost agree with him on this one, execpt his continued attempts rewrite history and sidestep any blame we may have for our treatment of slaves. 6] Here this idiot seems to be saying "We [essentially] did them a favor ! right, we gave them christianity and Air Jordans. This man is a fool, and anyone who believes this crap is just as much of a fool.

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Joe_Mama 6 years, 5 months ago

For the rest of the thread, who may not have the stomach to read through this piece of racist claptrap, here's Mr. Medved's claims. Sorry i got my postings backwards, as this should have preceded the above one. "1. Slavery was an ancient and universal institution, not a distinctively American innovation. 2. Slavery existed only briefly, and in limited locales, in the history of the republic - involving only a tiny percentage of the ancestors of today's Americans. 3. Though brutal, slavery wasn't genocidal: live slaves were valuable but dead captives brought no profit. 4. It's not true that the U.S. became a wealthy nation through the abuse of slave labor: the most prosperous states in the country were those that first freed their slaves. 5. While America deserves no unique blame for the existence of slavery, the United States merits special credit for its rapid abolition. 6. There is no reason to believe that today's African Americans would be better off if their ancestors had remained behind in Africa."

Also, for the record, Medved is also a part of the Discovery Institute, a bunch of creationists who got their a$$e$ handed to them in the Dover trial over "intellegent design". Seems rather obvious why freshair gravitates to his writings.

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freshair 6 years, 5 months ago

Joe, calm down, you're losing your aura of cool which you have so carefully established with your 3rd person persona. Or maybe there is some mildly demented member of your household whom you have allowed computer privileges?? Quien sabe?

Ok, you have provided a snippet from 1994, 14 years old, without the full context and without providing a link. Let's take a look at what Sowell has to say on Global Warming this past Feb of 2008 and everybody can make up their own mind. http://www.gopusa.com/commentary/tsowell/2008/ts_02281.shtml

As for Medved, there is nothing at all contradictory in anything he says. He agrees that the practise of Slavery is despicable and he also notes correctly that every civilization has practised it, including American Indians but that's besides the point. But what is unique and exemplary about the American phase is the role this Republic undertook to end the practise. Now of course, like all the Hate-America groupies, you're stuck in the past and like an old dog with a favorite bone, you ain't gonna let go of one the Far left's favorite whipping boys, Slavery in pre-1865 America and of course, its hand-maiden, the Victimization of Blacks. Every cause needs a victim, right? Jesse Jackson, among many, has parlayed the Victim card into millions of dollars for himself. Playing the Victim card is an ongoing Industry. Without it, The Liberal-Left could not exist, or at least, in a greatly diminished form.

Of course, you despise Thomas Sowell, because as a self-made black American who pulled himself out of poverty and has achieved success as an academic and a thinker/columnist, his writings expose the empty bankruptcy and outright fraud behind ALL of the Left's talking points.

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freshair 6 years, 5 months ago

The Arab Slave Trade. A practise still in existence today in Africa and the Middle East. But of course our resident Far Left Loonies have little, or nothing to say on this subject. The whole point of their outrage is to demean America. They couldn't care less about the ongoing slave trade in the muslim world. ttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_slave_trade

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Joe_Mama 6 years, 5 months ago

freshair, apparently you were hoping no one would follow the link you provided. What you sent was simply his column on the then-upcoming International Conference on Climate Change. After reading his article, it's obvious his position hasn't changed from 14 years ago. Your link strengthened my point that he is just another denier. If would actually go find out what was said at the conference, you would see that it's keynote speaker said "global warming exists".

However, we're off subject here. I pointed out his alignment with the Limbaugh's of the world, just as i pointed out yours.

Again, with the hate America nonsense....Wow. Basically, your argument is that whoever doesn't agree with you and your twisted buddies are America hating commies.

The rest of your post addresses none of the issues i took with Medved's article. Of course. I showed him to be a racist fool. Ironic he would take that position considering his Jewish heritage, but I digress.

It seems that the gist of your defense of Medved is "Well, the US took steps to abolish slavery" I would say this comes from the "America is the greatest nation in the history of the Earth and if you don't like it, you're a dirty commie" theory of American history. While I agree that the US does not deserve "unique blame for the existence of slavery," it does deserve some blame for allowing an institution to flourish that directly contradicted its founding principle. But the idea that the US "merits special credit for its rapid abolition just makes no sense." I would say the nation that deserves said credit in Britain. The British abolished slavery 32 years before the US. The British went out of their way to suppress the trans-Atlantic slave trade. Meanwhile, Americans were trying all they could to smuggle fresh slaves into the country to get around the 1808 constitutional abolition of the slave trade that Southerners bitterly regretted soon after they agreed to it.

Those are facts, no matter what you may think.

I would just add, right wingers like you love America the way a 3 year old loves mommy, can't do anything wrong, and anyone who says anything bad about mommy is bad. Real thinking people love America like an adult, realizing that mistakes are made, but trying to work through said mistakes.

Maybe if you looked elsewhere than townhall.com, you might get some real information, not just what they want you to hear.

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stmbtprof 6 years, 5 months ago

ooooh wikipedia...now there is a source....did you realize the credentials it takes to write for wikipedia???? NONE...or did you write it...when you are not blogging...I am thru here...thank you again Paul....this has gotten way off track and freshair is not worht my time or energy

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Joe_Mama 6 years, 5 months ago

Oh, and nice try, trying make me look like a racist, while defending one of the most racist articles I've read in a long while.

Unfortunately for you, you just continue to make yourself look bad. Thanks to folks like you, every person of color except for a couple are going to put Obama in the White House in November. Keep it up.

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Joe_Mama 6 years, 5 months ago

Right, stmbtprof.......Most educators won't allow wikipedia as a source for a serious paper.

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freshair 6 years, 5 months ago

Hey bozos, I gave you wikipedia because that's the general entry level for know-nothings like the lot of you. Now try scrolling down to the bottom and you will find a wealth of resources with more detail. Just think, today you now know that slavery still exists in parts of this planet. You are some bunch of clueless yahoos. LOL

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Joe_Mama 6 years, 5 months ago

lol @ "bozos"....talk about the pot calling the kettle black!

Your attempts at strawman arguments don't wash, just like they didn't when you attempted to debate religion. Go find a picture of Mann Coulter to touch yourself to. LOL

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stmbtprof 6 years, 5 months ago

yeah 2 masters and a ph from highly respected univeristy really makes me a know nothing....

and slavery still exists in this country with indentured illegals working for the rightous right in the suburbs of grandeur...please educate yourself..instead of trying to educate us...we already are...yes perhaps you should run away with transvestite Ann Coulter you would make a great couple

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dogd 6 years, 5 months ago

Stmbtprof: I'll say it again- you should sue the institutions which gave you the obviously fradulent impression that you have a superior education. The evidence of your delusion of "grandeur" is pretty "rightous".

Somehow you spelled transvestite correctly.

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Steve Lewis 6 years, 5 months ago

Will the above posters do yourselves a favor?

Please re-read your own remarks in a few weeks?

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Joe_Mama 6 years, 5 months ago

Joe has no issue with what he previously posted.............As a matter of fact, he welcomes any chump to debate him on the points he has raised...........

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stmbtprof 6 years, 5 months ago

and i have said before anyone who is anal can use spellcheck...i prfer to gt the pt across in as little time as possilbe and jst type fast to answer u doggiedoo..the tme to worry about spling is whn it matters this blog deserves little of my attntn or time except to expose some ridculous statements by likes of u

and lewi ..really if u cant say what u think on blog where can u

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dogd 6 years, 5 months ago

Steamboatproph:

You spend energy stating your qualifications, then follow up by saying essentially nothing. A failed attempt to condescend is usually amusing. Keep posting.

Neither candidate in this election will bring irrevocable joy to anybody. Of the two I really think McCain is most likely to do nonpartisan good. An Obama victory would commence a four-year poll-driven campaign for a second term. The last thing we need is another fool who will not step an inch outside the bounds of his agenda.

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freshair 6 years, 5 months ago

May I remind you J-Mama, that there is no unanimous consensus on whether Global warming is largely a naturally occuring cycle or specifically due to man-made activities. There are many, many scientists and specialists in the field who hold that a) it is a naturally occuring cycle and b) the computer models on which Global warming afficianados make their case are themselves in error.

Now, I find it very amusing that you and your Far Left cronies are so obsessed with something, Slavery in America, which effectively ended almost 150 years ago. Now if that's not Living in the Past, I don't what is. And, of course, like a good little PC troll, not only do you disagree with Medved, but you also are compelled to throw in the obligatory smear of 'racist' in your characterization of the topic. My o my, you certainly are a certified, card-carrying member of the Far Left Loony club. A characterization which, in your case, is far more supported by the evidence than by anything in the historical perspective Medved laid out.

It's ancient history, son, let it go. You'd be better off applying whatever mental energies you possess to areas of your life which I'm sure could use some careful and rational analysis. Slavery was as common to human civilizations as food, shelter and the use of fire. Nothing unusual in it except, perhaps, the very long arab role of over 1200 years which can still be seen today in Africa and the Middle East.

A final word to the forum moderator...I don't argue with your removing my response to LookoutJoe in which I referred to him as a 'dickless' fool. But you somehow overlooked the cause of that response,his post of July 15 5:01 in which he calls me a 'dick.' A slight error I'm sure which you will no doubt correct.

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JazzSlave 6 years, 5 months ago

Thomas Jefferson on the issue of slavery at the Second Continental Congress:

"It was like holding a wolf by the ears. You didn't like it, but you didn't dare let it go."

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Joe_Mama 6 years, 5 months ago

freshair, Your lack of reasoning skills is showing again. If you don't see the racism in Medved's article, then you're part of the problem, not the solution. You don't bother to read and/or attempt to understand any of the points i've brought up. You just continue to vomit the same tired old comments over and over. Like i've said already, you seem to be saying "Slavery has existed for thousands of years, so it's not that much of an issue". Just because it's existed for thousands of years, it doesn't make it right. Religion has existed for years as well, and it's still a black spot on the soul of mankind. As far as the global warming issue, I agree that there are still questions about what causes it. But the reality is, it does exist, and anything that humans can do to minimize the impact will only help us and our offspring in the future. My issue was not the debate over whether it is caused by man or not. My issue was the articles that you attempted to use as evidence that man doesn't have a role in it. I find it hilarious that you would characterize me as a "far left looney" without knowing anything about me, except for the fact that i have taken exception with some of what I think are your pointless, Limbaugh-esque postings. You tend to ramble on and on without saying anything, for the most part. For the record, my political leanings are the same as many in this country who don't exist on the fringe [like you]. Socially, I'm very liberal. Fiscally, I'm conservative. I think that the fringe elements on both sides are about 1/2 retarded, blind to evidence, and quick spout off about things they think they know about. Usually, as in your case, they are simply parroting what the people they look up to are saying. I realize that perhaps i have come across as insulting, but there are certain things that I feel strongly about. My grandchildren's future. My advice to you is to subscribe to LexisNexis [if you're even aware of it], and use it to find out truths that will make you a well rounded person. Otherwise, you're just going to continue to raise the ire of the real thinking people in this community. One last thing regarding my characterzation of Medved as a racist is accurate. Your right wing leanings show when you attempt to start screaming "left wing looney" when I point out that fact. It falls in the same vein as screaming "class warfare" every time someone wants to raise taxes on the richest 1% of this country. I would bet you're not in that 1%, and I'm certainly not, so why you defend the people who only want to exploit you is beyond me. Put down the koolaid cup and think for yourself for a change. Stop parroting what you see on Fox news. Have a great day.

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freshair 6 years, 5 months ago

Sorry, no rational and educated person would label Medved a racist on the basis of what is contained in that article. But your typical-run-of-the-mill Radical Liberal-Left indoctrinaire most certainly would. Perhaps your obsession on this subject is due to African ancestry. That would certainly account for emotion prevailing over informed logic. In any case, I would be more impressed with your 'Moral' compass would I see any evidence of your concern with the widespread practise of slavery still existing in Africa and the Middle East.

I find nothing under your name referring to or condemning this CURRENT slave trade. Your ideology, like all on the Left, is narrow-minded, provincial and selective. In other words, if it can't be used to bash the US it's of no relevance or concern.

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kielyj 6 years, 5 months ago

Can't not comment on Medved. His comments in capitals

1) SLAVERY WAS AN ANCIENT AND UNIVERSAL INSTITUTION, NOT A DISTINCTIVELY AMERICAN INNOVATION. This is certainly true. The Atlantic slave trade was a vast enterprise that encompassed many people; Africans, Muslims and Europeans from various countries all participated. Liverpool and Nantes grew into great ports from participation in the slave trade. Medved's statement is also not relevant. North America, constituted as colonies and later as a republic, was an avid participant in the slave trade and the exploitation of slave labor. The United States, founded on the self-evident truth that all men are created equal, prolonged legal chattel slavery and its accompanying brutalities for 87 years after its inception. It took a vicious war to end the hypocrisy. The objective fact is that the US existed as a slaveholding republic for many decades and that fact has ramifications down to today. It is our political original sin and all the specious bombast of Mr. Medved can't change the past. 2. SLAVERY EXISTED ONLY BRIEFLY, AND IN LIMITED LOCALES, IN THE HISTORY OF THE REPUBLIC INVOLVING ONLY A TINY PERCENTAGE OF THE ANCESTORS OF TODAY'S AMERICANS. Slavery existed in British North America from 1619 when the first slaves arrived in Jamestown. Before the Mayflower. At one time or another it existed in all the colonies that became the US. Slavery was legal in 15 states at the time of the civil war (which Medved calls the War between the States-using the Klan favorite; his robe is showing). Because of the 3/5 clause the slaveholding areas of the South had disproportionate power in the Congress and in general elections during the entire ante-bellum period. Chattel Slavery ended with The Thirteenth Amendment. Enforced servile labor of black people did not. Douglas Blackmon's recently published Slavery by Another Name details the re-enslavement of black southerners from the end of the War to the beginning of WWII. He describes a southern convict slavery system involving unfathomable brutality and great longevity, untouchable by the legal system. The Share cropping system, backed by racist laws that made being black illegal, and enforced by random racist violence resulted in perpetual serfdom for the vast majority of Southern blacks. Jim Crow was more than separate lunch counters; it was lynchings, night riders and a legal system of bottomless unfairness. We cannot pretend that one system of servile labor had nothing to do with the other or that there are no consequences today from the existence of that system. The point that today's Americans have no dog in the slavery argument is bizarre. An infinitesimally small number of Americans are descended from the Founders; yet we claim their legacy. As citizens we get the whole legacy and slavery is part of it.

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Joe_Mama 6 years, 5 months ago

freshair,

Once again you post an irrational and pointless diatribe attempting to bash what you think is a left wing conspiracy [or something, who knows what you think, l doubt you do either, it appears you let Fox news do your thinking for you], instead of truly addressing the issue at hand.

This is how stupid you appear to be.......

If I'm pointing out the problem with previous slavery in this country, and I did a very good job of debunking Medved's article, if I do say so myself, WHAT MAKES YOU THINK THAT I WOULDN'T BE DENOUNCING CURRENT SLAVERY?

And sadly, for you, that was the best you could do. [Except for intimating that I may be of African desent, which I'm sure to you is a veiled insult, racist that you appear to be. Here's a news flash for you, goofball, we're ALL of African decent ! ].

You're not even as smart as the Hannitys and Limbaugh's you so admire. I bet they're thrilled to have a mental giant like you on their side. Actually, they probaby are, since it makes them easier to feed you the koolaid.

You're shown yourself to be unlearned, unable to grasp even the simplest of concepts, and I laugh at people like you.

And I'm not the only one.

It's unbelieveably easy to run circles around you in debates, as I've shown.

Sit down over there and be quiet and let the adults get things done.

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kielyj 6 years, 5 months ago

  1. THOUGH BRUTAL, SLAVERY WASN'T GENOCIDAL: LIVE SLAVES WERE VALUABLE BUT DEAD CAPTIVES BROUGHT NO PROFIT . OK the slave trade was not genocide by the Geneva Convention definition. It was mass murder. I feel better now. Medved does have sympathy for some caught in the trade- the slave captains "Perhaps the most horrifying aspect of these voyages involves the fact that no slave traders wanted to see this level of deadly suffering: they benefited only from delivering (and selling) live slaves, not from tossing corpses into the ocean" That would not be my most horrifying aspect of the slave trade but then I suspect Medved always has the bottom line in mind. The losses were calculated before hand and considered part of the cost of doing business. The average life expectancy of an imported slave in the Indies was seven years. It was cheaper to work them to death and buy a replacement than to treat them decently and work them in a reasonable fashion. Medved is right about Davis' comment that north American slavers did manage to breed a self producing stock of slaves (he apparently skimmed the book looking for quotes he could use, this certainly is not the thrust of the book). I suppose a slavery system that uses one area as a place to breed slaves for more economically viable areas gets some sort of dispensation from slavery's apologists. Twisted I think.
  2. IT'S NOT TRUE THAT THE U.S. BECAME A WEALTHY NATION THROUGH THE ABUSE OF SLAVE LABOR: THE MOST PROSPEROUS STATES IN THE COUNTRY WERE THOSE THAT FIRST FREED THEIR SLAVES. The South was not a prosperous industrial region by the standards of the time. It was, however, a very prosperous plantation society. The planter class was a vibrant, expansionist, wealthy group, particularly in the Old Southwest. The planters were able to set the parameters for law, custom and commerce in the South and to dominate the society. Their power came from their control of slave based commercial agriculture. There were endemic problems in the Upper South prior to the war due to the poverty of the soil and internal competition from other Southern areas. They turned to breeding slaves for the cotton frontier.
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kielyj 6 years, 5 months ago

There is no reason to suspect that slavery was a dying economic system; slavery could have been adapted to industrial applications as it was during and after the war in the mines and steel mills in Alabama and Georgia. Participation in the slave economy was not limited to the South. Northern bankers loaned money to the planters and bought their crops. Northern manufacturers made tools and cheap clothes for plantation workers. Northern ships transported cotton and slaves. Northern doughfaces conspired with southern politicians to promote slavery and its expansion. Lincoln understood that the nation as a whole was culpable for the wrongs of slavery. In the Second Inaugural he said:.He (God) gives to both North and South this terrible war as the woe due to those by whom the offense came, shall we discern therein any departure from those divine attributes which the believers in a living God always ascribe to Him? Fondly do we hope, fervently do we pray, that this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away. Yet, if God wills that it continue until all the wealth piled by the bondsman's two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every drop of blood drawn with the lash shall be paid by another drawn with the sword, as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said "the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether." 5. WHILE AMERICA DESERVES NO UNIQUE BLAME FOR THE EXISTENCE OF SLAVERY, THE UNITED STATES MERITS SPECIAL CREDIT FOR ITS RAPID ABOLITION. IN THE COURSE OF SCARCELY MORE THAN A CENTURY FOLLOWING THE EMERGENCE OF THE AMERICAN REPUBLIC, MEN OF CONSCIENCE, PRINCIPLE AND UNFLAGGING ENERGY SUCCEEDED IN ABOLISHING SLAVERY NOT JUST IN THE NEW WORLD BUT IN ALL NATIONS OF THE WEST
Where to go with someone this confused? America does deserve credit for fighting the Civil War (the victors anyway), the abolition of slavery and the Civil war amendments. These are jewels in the Republic's crown. However, "in scarcely more than a century" is scarcely a short period of time to have had slavery in the city on a hill. Long enough to scar any institution or person associated with it. After 1877 Reconstruction ended and a dark night of oppression settled over the Freedmen and their descendants. The freedom promised by the Proclamation and Civil War Amendments were denied to black people for another 100 years. Jim Crow, Plessy Ferguson, mob violence and a systemically lawless legal system in the South denied basic rights to black citizens for generations. Fifty years ago lynching was an acceptable form of behavior. Ask Emmett Till. The North was better but not by much.

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kielyj 6 years, 5 months ago

. THERE IS NO REASON TO BELIEVE THAT TODAY'S AFRICAN-AMERICANS WOULD BE BETTER OFF IF THEIR ANCESTORS HAD REMAINED BEHIND IN AFRICA. Cannot believe even a right wing dweeb would say this.. So what does this all mean? The sordid legacy of slavery is with us and will be with us for a long time. The hope I see is in the progress that has been made in the last 50 years. Jim Crow is dead. Black people have made great strides. As a nation we have made great strides. A black man may well be elected president. Racism is slowly receding. My children have fewer racist assumptions than I by orders of magnitude. I think this is generally true throughout the country.

I agree with Obama on race

"The profound mistake of Reverend Wright's sermons is not that he spoke about racism in our society. It's that he spoke as if our society was static; as if no progress has been made; as if this country - :-- is still irrevocably bound to a tragic past. But what we know -- what we have seen - is that America can change. That is true genius of this nation."

Lincoln and Dr. King both saw America as a work in progress; that we are constantly challenged to live up to the words in the declaration. We may never get there. Both of them were willing to die trying. It is a dishonor to their memory and to this country to try to soft pedal slavery or its effects.

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freshair 6 years, 5 months ago

Nice rant, kielyj with all the certified smear labels...KKK, racist etc. Hmmm, so anyone who describes the Civil War as it is also commonly known, The War Between The States, is either a member of the KKK or embracing its principles?? Well, I think that alone says everything anyone needs to know about your affiliations.

Taking America for Granted by Thomas Sowell

'There is nothing automatic about the way of life achieved in this country. It is very unusual among the nations of the world today and rarer than four-leaf clovers in the long view of history.

It didn't just happen. People made it happen -- and they and those who came after them paid a price in blood and treasure to create and preserve this nation that we now take for granted. More important, this country's survival is not automatic. What we do will determine that. Too many Americans today are not only unconcerned about what it will take to preserve this country but are busy dismantling the things that make it America.

Our national motto, "E Pluribus Unum" -- from many, one -- has been turned upside down as educators, activists and politicians strive to fragment the American population into separate racial, social, linguistic and ideological blocs. Some are gung ho for generic "change" -- without the slightest concern that the change might be for the worse, even in a world where most nations that are different are also worse off. Most are worse economically and many are much worse off in terms of despotism, corruption, and bloodshed.

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freshair 6 years, 5 months ago

Sowell continued:

History is full of nations and even whole civilizations that have fallen from the heights to destitution and disintegration. The Roman Empire is a classic example, but the great ancient Chinese dynasties, the Ottoman Empire and many others have met the same fate. These were not just political "changes." They were historic catastrophes from which whole peoples did not recover for centuries. It has been estimated that it was a thousand years before Europeans again achieved as high a standard of living as they had in Roman times. The Dark Ages were called dark for a reason.

Today, whole classes of people get their jollies and puff themselves up by denigrating and denouncing American society. Such people are a major influence in our media, in our educational system and among all sorts of vocal activists. Nothing illustrates their power to distort reality like the way they seize upon slavery to denounce American society.

Slavery was cancerous but does anybody regard cancer in the United States as an evil peculiar to American society? It is a worldwide affliction and so was slavery. Both the enslavers and the enslaved have included people on every inhabited continent -- people of every race, color, and creed. More Europeans were enslaved and taken to North Africa by Barbary Coast pirates alone than there were African slaves taken to the United States and to the colonies from which it was formed.

Yet throughout our educational system, our media, and in politics, slavery is incessantly presented as if it were something peculiar to black and white Americans. What was peculiar about the United States was that it was the first country in which slavery was under attack from the moment the country was created.

What was peculiar about Western civilization was that it was the first civilization to destroy slavery, not only within its own countries but in other countries around the world as well.

Reality has been stood on its head so that a relative handful of people can feel puffed up or gain notoriety and power. Whatever they gain, the rest of us have everything to lose.'

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Steve Lewis 6 years, 5 months ago

Keilbasa I wrote: "Will the above posters do yourselves a favor? Please re-read your own remarks in a few weeks?"

Because I thought the posters who were enjoying insults, in the heat of their competition to win the argument, might later see the same insults as counterproductive. -Steve

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menomena 6 years, 5 months ago

freshair - correct me if I'm wrong. What you are proposing is that as American's we only talk about how great America is for getting rid of slavery while ignoring any lasting consequences of slavery? And because the rest of the world had/has slavery, it's ok that America did?

Who would you have sided with in the War Between the States? Those fighting for "states rights"?

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Joe_Mama 6 years, 5 months ago

freshair,

Nice job of supporting my earlier point exactly.

You obviously don't have the ability to think for yourself, so you cut and paste comments from others.

Your right to vote should be rescinded.

menomena..dumb question. Isn't it obvious who this blowhard would have supported ?

Sorry for the caustic comments, but some folks don't deserve respect until they prove themselves.

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Matthew Stoddard 6 years, 5 months ago

Steve- Counterproductive insults? No such thing. If insulting someone who calls people idiots for their opinions while being offended when it happens to them, I call it productive, since it makes me smile? Smiling what it's all about, right? Personally, I'm the Chesire Cat right after reading this thread!

Look at what comes from my party: "Terrorist Fist-Bump!" "Dims," "Demonrats" "Kool-Aid Drinkers." "B. Hussein Obama in order to emphasize he has the same name as Saddam!!" "Hate-America Clubbers."

Call them a name back and someone poops their pants and yells "Ad Hominem!" "Stick to the Facts" "My penis can beat up your father!" "We didn't invent slavery, we just went along with it. Then we freed the slaves but had to ween them of it by keeping them half-citizens for another century."

As I said before, it's the same dance to a different tune. (I'd call it the classic "White Boy Dance" since it has no rhythm, but after seeing Obama on Ellen Degeneres' show, he can't dance worth a damn so really, it's the "Stick Up the Butt Dance." It was almost as funny as the clips I've seen of Bush trying to dance.)

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sieverding 6 years, 5 months ago

With the economy in the state that it is, and citizens' difficulties getting a fair hearing in court, there might be a lot of truly desperate and hungry Americans. I met someone from Brazil who said that his parents kept an armed guard at their house. When that got too expensive, they thought a high-rise was their only safe living option.

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Joe_Mama 6 years, 5 months ago

lol@"sit back and believe".........ridiculous video, exposes the racism still within the replblican party....believe that

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paul potyen 6 years, 5 months ago

Wow! I see you are all still hammering away at each other (and me). Well, I thought I might add a couple more observations before I vacate this space for good.

Freshair: Since you seem to be loathe to drop the topic of genocide, I would like to respond to your curious view that just because there more American Indians today than were killed by the U.S Government, it does not qualify as genocide. By this same token, I assume you would deny the holocaust of WWII by the Germans because they exterminated only 6 million Jews, yet today there are about 13 million Jews in the world.

And as for your argument that more Native Americans died of diseases than by military guns, I will accept your argument if you will accept that a great many, if not a majority of Native Americans who died of diseases did so while under the control of (and neglect by) the U.S. Military.

Spukomy: I am very happy that your economic conditions have improved over the last 7 1/2 years. You must indeed be a very good swimmer to be making headway against such a strong current.

Okay, I'm outa here. I'm going to hang out with people who have had their rabies shots.

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kielyj 6 years, 5 months ago

Not trying to hide my affiliations. Sowell is more coherent than Medved but I still disagree. Given the situation in the Atlantic world in the 17th and 18th centuries it is difficult to imagine a plantation economy not using African chattel slavery. The US did end slavery. It is a little more complicated than Sowell lets on; but the Civil War and the emancipation are to the nation's undying credit The implication Sowell makes is that acknowledgement of the horrific nature of slavery, its ambiguous aftermath and the effect that both have had on this country is somehow anti-American. It was what it was. Wishing it were not or creating bogus reasons why it was not important won't make it so.

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freshair 6 years, 5 months ago

What exactly don't you America-Haters understand from the words of an African-American, Thomas Sowell??

'Yet throughout our educational system, our media, and in politics, slavery is incessantly presented as if it were something peculiar to black and white Americans. What was peculiar about the United States was that it was the first country in which slavery was under attack from the moment the country was created.

What was peculiar about Western civilization was that it was the first civilization to destroy slavery, not only within its own countries but in other countries around the world as well.

Reality has been stood on its head so that a relative handful of people can feel puffed up or gain notoriety and power. Whatever they gain, the rest of us have everything to lose.'

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Matthew Stoddard 6 years, 5 months ago

freshair- what don't you understand about a bunch of white men putting "All men are created equal" into our nation's most sacred document that started our independence from England, yet did not apply to black people at the time? You still haven't answered that one?

Yes, yes; we know you can't answer it so you ignore it as any revisionist would. You'll say something you think is clever like, (stealing from my arguments against Epley) "You're living in the past." Well, 9-11 is in the past, too. We shoul just ignore that as well, by your line of thinking.

As for destroying slavery, the point is the double standard in the Declaration of Independence. A full century before we "destroyed" slavery just to keep the freed slaves as half-citizens.

People like you just don't seem to get that thru your heads, and never will and that's why your kind will die out and be forgotten as the mosquito sucking blood from America's forearm. It's people like you that hate America because you want to revise all the bad stuff that we did in the past with a lollypop. It's amazing people like you made it this far in life, truth be told.

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freshair 6 years, 5 months ago

keilbo, you'd be better off, and much more relevant, to be concerned with what is happening in 2008 and not what the prevailing social mores were in 1860, 1760, or 1660. History is constantly evolving, constantly changing. In this year of 2008 a black man is one of the two candidates for prez of the US. Wake up, son! As a favorite figure of the counter-culture movement of the 60's was fond of saying 'Be Here Now!'

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Matthew Stoddard 6 years, 5 months ago

And you'd be more relevant if you could answer the question but since you ignore history (secrectly hoping to repeat it, I'm sure) people think you're off your rocker. And I know you wish I were your son, but it's not in your best interest to procreate.

And, since you weren't paying attention to history, "Be Here Now" was written in 1971.

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Matthew Stoddard 6 years, 5 months ago

Now it's "Son" with a capital "S"? Thanks, but I don't usually go for the comparison to Jesus.

And his name was changed to Baba Ram Dass. Funny that you quote him on this since I'm betting he'd disagree with you. (boy- talk about living in the past- diggin up "Be Here Now" is a riot! Making your point with the words of a drug addict who wasn't "all there, then." How precious.)

Now- answer the question posed or continue to be a joke that I take advantage of. I know which you'll pick, but let the others in on it. You can quote everything you like but it still has nothing to do with the slavery issue at hand. You just want to blather in order to keep convincing yourself you're right when nobody else seems to think that. C'mon, hotair- "Bring it on!" (and I guess I should say that in a Gabrielle Union/Kirsten Dunst kind of way now, since your spankies are showing. might want to wax or shave when wearing those)

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freshair 6 years, 5 months ago

I've met the gentleman, son, we crossed paths a few times. Don't presume to 'guess' what his thoughts on any subject would be unless you've personally heard from his own mouth. His teacher/guru was known to have favored dropping nuclear bombs on China during the conflict in 1962...digest that little nugget before you presume to imagine what anybody unknown to you would think about anything. You're a very angry fellow and you'd be a lot better off emptying out...Don't Worry, Be Happy.

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Matthew Stoddard 6 years, 5 months ago

Angry, eh? Riiiiight! That's why I'm laughing at you while you sink into the La Brea Tar Pits.

And you've met the man? Sounds like it, considering your drug induced sounding rants.

Congrats! You keep avoiding the question like it was toothpaste or deodorant! Yay.

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colobob 6 years, 5 months ago

"A gentleman will not insult me, and no man not a gentleman can insult me." - Frederick Douglass -

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Matthew Stoddard 6 years, 5 months ago

"If you can't ignore an insult, top it; if you can't top it, laugh it off; and if you can't laugh it off, it's probably deserved."

J. Russell Lynes

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Matthew Stoddard 6 years, 5 months ago

"The first human who hurled an insult instead of a stone was the founder of civilization."

Sigmund Freud

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colobob 6 years, 5 months ago

"The way to procure insults is to submit to them: A man meets with no more respect than he exacts." - William Hazlitt _

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Matthew Stoddard 6 years, 5 months ago

As with people like freshair,

"Fanaticism consists of redoubling your effort when you have forgotten your aim." George Santayana

Some that I've heard but haven't bothered to find out who originally said them:

"He is the kind of a man that you would use as a blueprint to build an idiot."

"He's so dense that light bends around him."

"His men would follow him anywhere, but only out of morbid curiosity."

"I could make a monkey out of you, but why should I take all the credit?"

"I bet your brain feels as good as new, seeing that you've never used it."

Hey- all I was looking for was an answer to a simple question. freshair just proved that there is no such thing as a simple question for him/her to answer.

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colobob 6 years, 5 months ago

Matt, the only point I'm trying to get across to you is that when you argue a point by casting insults, the point that you were trying to make loses its validity. Food for thought that's all.

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colobob 6 years, 5 months ago

Here is one more quote that may be of benefit to all of us. "A wise man is superior to any insults which can be put upon him, and the best reply to unseemly behavior is patience and moderation." - Moliere - aka Jean Baptiste Poquelin

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Matthew Stoddard 6 years, 5 months ago

Look thru the thread, bob. I tried asking nicely. freshair then decided Joe_Mama was "diverting" and I held him accountable to the same.

We can trade quotes all we like. I tried nice & was called an America Hater, just because no other answer could come to a small mind.

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colobob 6 years, 5 months ago

Matt, it would appear that trying to get you to understand that answering an insult with an insult accomplishes nothing and is a wasted effort on my part. It's a free country and you are free to follow your own path and respond to comments as you see fit. I didn't take a side on the issue, I merely tried to point out that you do yourself a disservice when you resort to insults when arguing a point. Look, rather than debate the matter further I'll just wish you a good day. I'll leave what is or is not an appropriate response to what you consider an insult up to your own conscience. Two wrongs never made a right. Enjoy the day!

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freshair 6 years, 5 months ago

'Look thru the thread, bob. I tried asking nicely. freshair then decided Joe_Mama was "diverting" and I held him accountable to the same...'

If you are too befuddled to understand that the answer to your 'what about all men are created equal' query is precisely answered in my previously telling you that the social mores of previous centuries are wholly irrelevant to this very moment you are reading this, this ever-present and constant NOW, this 2008 when a man of black heritage is one of the two major party candidates for President, if this was/is not crystal clear for you then all I can say is...later.

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Matthew Stoddard 6 years, 5 months ago

Ah, the wee-nut gallery cops out.

Sorry- bob; too many good insults that need to be put to use! LOL!

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Joe_Mama 6 years, 5 months ago

freshair types even longer and less coherent sentences every day. Guess he/she has become a little little addled from the stick on the head.

"That's a bad freshair, bad"

LOL

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freshair 6 years, 5 months ago

Joe-ma, two things are Infinite, the Universe and Stupidity. While the first is largely theoretical, the existence of the two-idiots-in residence, known as 3rd person Joe and kielbasa, confirms the second.

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Matthew Stoddard 6 years, 5 months ago

Insulted in the true Right Wang fashion: with no originality. Good one, flesh-tear.

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Matthew Stoddard 6 years, 5 months ago

Dang it! No spell check sucks. I was trying to type Tight Wang.

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Joe_Mama 6 years, 5 months ago

Now, you have looked foolish. Why would you continue that ? A little masochistic inclinations, maybe ?

freshair, you have been made out to be a fool already, why would you do this to yourself ?

Matthew and myself have already made you look like a stupid, racist fool [ for supporting Medved]. Why would you continue to degrade yourself ? I suspect it's because you don't KNOW any better. BTW The best you can do, rather than intelligently debating the points, is resort to ad hom attacks on myself and Matthew [who may not share my political inclinations, but who cares]

What you don't realize is, YOU'RE the one that looks foolish. Is this the best that the right-wing can do ?

How pathetic.

It shows the weakness of your arguments.

BTW, oh Unlearned One [I gave you capitals out of sympathy], The universe is NOT largely theoretical. Read a freakin' science book instead of the bible.

I schooled you on Micheal Medved. I will continue to school you and any other delusional white, right wing chump that comes along.

Live with it.

Truth to power, baby.

Joe says " Peace out !"

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Joe_Mama 6 years, 5 months ago

Sorry, Joe just disagrees strongly, and sometimes resorts to freshair's retarded method of debate.

Does the 3rd person bother you, freshair ?

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freshair 6 years, 5 months ago

Give it up son, anybody with real life experience knows you're the punk. You can dish it out but when your ad hominem attacks are returned in kind, you squeal like the little punk you are.

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freshair 6 years, 5 months ago

'The universe is NOT largely theoretical. Read a freakin' science book instead of the bible.'

You really should improve your reading Comprehension J-Mama before you undertake to 'share' your 'thoughts' with the world. What is THEORETICAL, my Infinitely stupid friend, is whether the Universe is FINITE or INFINITE. I weary of this constant remediation of your intellectual shortcomings.

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Joe_Mama 6 years, 5 months ago

Ha Ha "MY intellectual shortcomings"

Please point out one, and we will discuss it, unlearned one, [no capitals this time, your stupid ad hom attacks don't warrant it].

I'm pretty certain that your "real life experience" pales in comparison to mine, but whatever.

Come on with it.

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Joe_Mama 6 years, 5 months ago

BTW, if you "weary of it", then sit down over there in the corner, fantasize about Mann Coulter and be quiet for a change.

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Joe_Mama 6 years, 5 months ago

colobob, your point is well taken, but for chrissakes......look at this fool !

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weallnutz 6 years, 5 months ago

Obama says Iran is a small country of no real threat to the world. Obama opposes troop surge in Iraq, predicts it will worsen the on ground security. Obama says he would be more suited than General Petreaus to decide troop levels in Iraq(based off of his all 2 days there?).
Ask the most knowledgeable economist you know about what Obama's economic policies will do to this country, forget recession revisit Jimmy Carter and 18% interest. Educate yourself beyond feel good generalizations and campaign promises Paul, even if you can spell. Obama's lack of experience is evident on his daily contradictions of himself....if your views are built off of lack of research...they tend to change daily.
I fear you are right and he will win....4 years from now we'll see what a socialist approach does to all of us, Higher taxes and more government creates way more issues than it solves...but here we go!

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