Archive for Wednesday, February 6, 2008
Jack and Lynny Huston: Pray for Jerusalem
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Our leadership says we will have peace in the Mideast by carving up Israel and dividing Jerusalem to create a Frankenstein state called Palestine. Much like the classic work of fiction, this freak of assorted parcels of land will turn on its creator and terrorize the local neighborhood.
Before our leadership breathes life into this modern-day monster, let's look at a work of nonfiction called the Bible. The Creator gave a piece of real estate called Israel to the Jewish people. The earnest money was faith. Metes and bounds were from a burning bush in Egypt to some tall cedars in Lebanon, and from sandy beaches on the Mediterranean to 12 stones under the Jordan River. Time of possession was same day. These terms are forever.
Don't forget to read the fine print, specifically where it states that God will bless those who bless the Jewish people and curse those who curse the Jewish people.
Now look at financing options. Let's not subprime Israel and the Jewish people, or the Almighty will reset his A.R.M. on us while our nation slides into foreclosure.
We wrote this letter to clear our name. We stand for Israel and the Jewish people. Saying that we are giving peace to Israel by taking their land from them and giving it to people not looking for peace is wrong. Consider where you stand on Israel. Pray for the peace of Jerusalem.
Jack and Lynny Huston
Phippsburg
Comments
bloggyblog (anonymous) says...
blog thinks everyone should spend some time today outside praying to the god of POW!!
February 7, 2008 at 8:45 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ColoradoNative (anonymous) says...
The Ute indians lost their land in Steamboat. That was their holy land. What makes Israel's more important then theirs? I say nothing.
February 6, 2008 at 11:06 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ColoradoNative (anonymous) says...
History of the Ute's in Steamboat.
They were here much longer than any of us. Pray for the UTES!
http://ghostdepot.com/rg/mainline/mof...
February 6, 2008 at 11:09 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
424now (anonymous) says...
I support civil behavior, which I have seen precious little of from either faciton.
February 6, 2008 at 12:08 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
suckerfreeforlife (anonymous) says...
Hunterdog
Just how is it you rationalize living on stolen Native American land while condemning the Israelis for stealing land? Surely, their claim to that land, however weak you may think it is, is more legitimate than your claim to this land. You are the direct beneficiary of a genocidal campaign against the Indigenous population. Perhaps if the Ute engaged in violent Jihad to get their land back, you'd volunteer to remove yourself peacefully from the land that is rightfully theirs.
February 6, 2008 at 12:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
freshair (anonymous) says...
Here we go again! Firstly, your 'Native' Americans are nothing of the sort. They emigrated here from somewhere else also. Check out the kennewick remains and any recent archaeological finds of the past 2 decades. All testify to inward migrations of various peoples into the North American continent. Secondly, all you anti-religious and/or atheistic sneerers of people of Faith, remember this---however you want to define it, just as you cannot definitively prove the existence of a God(s), Super-Intelligence Life Form or Omnipotent Cosmic Universal Creator so also you can not disprove the possibility of such existing. The person of Real Intelligence never denies the possibility of anything beyond the scope of
their cognition.
February 6, 2008 at 1:58 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JazzSlave (anonymous) says...
I've never understood the more virulent Christian bashing. As an agnostic, I have no dog in the fight. freshair is right: the pope can't prove there is; Michael Newdow can't prove there isn't. I don't see what the faithless have to gain by trashing the faithful (the Jimmy Swaggarts & Louis Farrakahns notwithstanding).
February 6, 2008 at 2:29 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Jay_K (anonymous) says...
A few choice passages from that "work of nonfiction":
Deuteronomy 2:25 "This day will I begin to put the dread of thee and the fear of thee upon the nations that are under the whole heaven, who shall hear report of thee, and shall tremble, and be in anguish because of thee."
(Sounds like terrorism to me.)
Deuteronomy 2:33-34 "And the LORD our God delivered him before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people. And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain."
(Kill 'em all and let god sort 'em out, eh?)
Deuteronomy 3:6 "And we utterly destroyed them, as we did unto Sihon king of Heshbon, utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city."
(Genocide? Yep.)
Deuteronomy 7:2 "And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them."
(This from an merciful deity?)
Joshua 6:21 "And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword."
(That's what I call a scorched earth campaign.)
Joshua 8:26 "For Joshua drew not his hand back, wherewith he stretched out the spear, until he had utterly destroyed all the inhabitants of Ai."
(But god told him to do it. So that's okay.)
And more, and more, and more. Genocide and slaughter, even of innocents, on a massive scale. It's ridiculous in the extreme to use the Old Testament as the justification for a Jewish nation.
February 6, 2008 at 3 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jester1cp (anonymous) says...
February 6, 2008 at 3:59 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
freshair (anonymous) says...
Uh, mr. Jay-k, you can find examples of this in the scripture of every major religion, jewish, christian, hindu, buddhist, zoroastrian, sikh. That was then, this is now the year 2008, not 2006 BC or 600 AD. Judaism and Christianity have modernized and gone through various cycles of Reformation. The source of Religious strife and fanatic violence today is to be found within Islam. Islam has not undergone any Reformation and is essentially the same totalitarian ideology it has been from Day One. So whereas Judaism and Christianity have extended religious freedom and tolerance and civil rights in the countries where they are the majority, Islam has not . To be a religious minority under Islam means to exist as a Dhimmi, a second-class citizen with sharply curtailed rights of expression of worship and all matters of civil and criminal legality.
February 6, 2008 at 4:06 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seeuski (anonymous) says...
So Jay_k,
Give us the goods on who was there in the Holy Land back then since you have picked a few of your favorite passages from who knows which bible version.
Why don't you then explain how in the heck a small number of Jews in Israel were able to thwart the huge armies of Arabs surrounding them over the centuries in their desire to eliminate the jews.
You don't have to believe but you have to acknowledge some kind of amazing grace.
But I know, people like you just don't believe that Jews have any rites to a homeland even if there is evidence that they were the residents of the Holy Land in the Biblical era.
The archealogical evidence is against you.
February 6, 2008 at 4:06 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seeuski (anonymous) says...
Why do you think W is so hated by the left? No President has supported Israel more than he.
February 6, 2008 at 4:13 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JazzSlave (anonymous) says...
That he wears his religion on his sleeve doesn't engender the warm fuzzies, either.
February 6, 2008 at 4:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seeuski (anonymous) says...
Honesty sucks eh.
February 6, 2008 at 4:42 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Hadleyburg_Press (anonymous) says...
Funny thing is that the Evangelicals really don't care about the Jews. Yes they want Israel to exist, only in as much as it must for the second coming of Christ as fortold in their holy book. Problem is, the Jews get slaughtered in this vesion of the fairytale...
Why would the paper publish this zealot tripe any how? If an Islamic Fundamentalist submitted a piece on the destruction of Israel and the US, would the paper publish it? Too much proselytizing in the commentary to make it worth a crap. Why couldn't they put forth a better secular argument for why our friends, the Israelis, have a historical right to exist in the region without bathing it in the blood of religious self-righteousness.
In my opinion these folks have done a disservice to the Israelis by confusing geographical history with the kind of religious garbage that turns off thinking people. The same could be said for the Jewish settlers that use their holy book to continually inflame the hatreds of the Palestinian people by erecting new enclaves in the occupied territories.
I would love to see peace in this region in my life time, but I seriously doubt that the way we are going to achieve it is with everybody looking for answers in their pet version of an ancient myth.
February 6, 2008 at 5:10 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seeuski (anonymous) says...
The great one has spoken.
Why don't you at least read the history concerning Balfour?
Palestinians? Spare me, the radical arab leaders used these castoways as political pawns. The Jews agreed to a 2 state solution in 1948 that would have given them much less land than today and the arabs attacked.
No one wants peace more than the Jews but not at the point of a sword.
The British created this problem.
February 6, 2008 at 5:42 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seeuski (anonymous) says...
Heres a good story that kind of illustrates what we are dealing with.
Make peace with this!
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news...
February 6, 2008 at 5:50 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jester1cp (anonymous) says...
Shema Yisrael Adonai Eloheinu Adonai Echad.
February 6, 2008 at 6:08 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jester1cp (anonymous) says...
YAHUDAH is here to stay
February 6, 2008 at 6:14 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seeuski (anonymous) says...
amen.
February 6, 2008 at 6:15 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jester1cp (anonymous) says...
Chazak Amenu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cu0T4...
February 6, 2008 at 6:37 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JazzSlave (anonymous) says...
Hadleyburg_Press says:
"...Jewish settlers that use their holy book to continually inflame the hatreds of the Palestinian people by erecting new enclaves in the occupied territories."
DING DING DING DING DING! THIS IS AN AUTOMATED REPLY FROM JAZZSLAVE'S AUTOMATIC B.S. DETECTOR. Your recent post contains troll-like characteristics which resemble the rantings of Nazi sympathizers, Osama bin Laden, and college students who have snorted the malign ravings of Noam Chomsky & Ward Churchill.
To determine whether or not the Detector was set off in error, kindly reply to the following questions:
1. Are you aware that the Disputed Territories never belonged to the "Palestinians" in the first place, and only came to the Israelis as a result of the 1967 six day war in which Egypt, Jordan, Syria, & Lebanon all joined forces and launched a war to "push the Jews into the sea"? Israel won & took control of the land. Do you agree that if the Arabs don't want to lose territory to Israel, then they shouldn't start wars? Do you see justice in the proposition that Israel, who as far back as 1948 has always sought peace with her far larger neighbors, should live prosperously - making the desert bloom - while the residents of 19 adjacent Arab countries who are blessed with far more land & massive oil wealth live in their own s&*t?
2. Did you know that the "Palestinians" could have had their own nation as early as 1948 had they accepted the UN partition plan which gave Israel AND the Palestinians countries of their own - on land Jews had lived on for thousands of years before Mohammed ever had a wet dream about virgins? The Arabs rejected the UN offer and went to war with the infant Israeli nation. The Arabs lost and have been whining about it ever since. Do you agree this is like a murderer killing his parents and asking for mercy since he is now an orphan?
3. Can name ANY Arab country which offers Jews the right to be citizens, vote, own property, businesses, participate in government or have ANY of the rights which Israeli Arabs enjoy? Any Arab country which gives those rights to Christians? How about to other Arabs? Wouldn't you just LOVE to be a citizen of Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Iran, or Syria?
4. Did you know that the Arabs in the disputed territories (conquered by Israel in the 1967 war which was started by Arabs) and who are not Israelis already have two countries right now? And that they are called Egypt and Jordan?
5. Please explain why you are so concerned about "Palestinian hatred", while their Arab compatriots possess 99% of the land in the region and are in control of the world's greatest natural resource? Can't their brother Muslims offer some of the surplus land and nature's riches to the "Palestinians"? Or is it true that Arabs are only willing to die right down to the last "Palestinian"?
February 6, 2008 at 6:45 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JazzSlave (anonymous) says...
Continued from previous post...
6. You wail about the inflammation of Palestinian hatred. Do you feel similar concern for say, people in Saudi Arabia who are beheaded, subject to amputation, stoning, honor killing, and slavery? What about women who are denied basic civil rights, including the right not to be treated as property for the entertainment and abuse of their male relatives? What about the Muslims in Sudan and Egypt who are still enslaved, or the women there whose genitalia are barbarically cut off? How about the oppression of Shiites by Sunnis, the gassing of the Kurds by Iraq, or the massacre of "Palestinians" by Jordan (Black September)? Do you find any of this more egregious or less egregious than "Palestinian" hatred?
7. Have you ever considered how much better off everyone would be if Arabs stopped trying to kill Jews and destroy Israel? What would happen if the Israelis gave up their weapons and disarmed? Would they live to see the next day? But what would happen if the Arabs completely disarmed? You know the answer: THEY WOULD ALL BE AT PEACE! And without a war to rile them up, the Arabs would be forced to look at their own repressive, pre-medieval societies. Why do that when there are Jews to kill?
8. Have you heard "People who define themselves primarily by what they hate, rather than who they love, are doomed to failure and misery"? Can you see the parallels to the Arabs, who are blessed with land and oil, but still gladly train their children to suicide themselves in order to commit murder? Do you recall Goldy Meir's famous remark (paraphrasing from memory) "There will be peace when the Arabs love their children more than they hate ours"? Why do the Arabs hate so much?
Please note that this endorsement of Israel contains no religious justification. No "pet version of an ancient myth." Your response to it, as a self-proclaimed "thinking person" will dictate whether or not the B.S. Detector needs to be re calibrated.
February 6, 2008 at 6:46 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JazzSlave (anonymous) says...
My apologies to a great Leader: Golda.
February 6, 2008 at 6:49 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seeuski (anonymous) says...
jester1cp,
Beautiful!!!!
And jazzslave,
right on.
February 6, 2008 at 6:55 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seeuski (anonymous) says...
If Obama and Ron Paul have their way Israel is in trouble, and g-d forbid Slick Willy gets back in the Oral office.
Yes, having friends that are Christian and love the land of Israel is wonderful.
February 6, 2008 at 7:03 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
smoke (anonymous) says...
Protacalls of the Eldars of Zion http://youtube.com/watch?v=7VZ7av9FWD...
February 6, 2008 at 7:58 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JazzSlave (anonymous) says...
smoke:
Have a good time at your next G.E.D. reunion.
February 6, 2008 at 8:22 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
outsiderlookingin (anonymous) says...
jazzslave an old time fireman once told me "The are no atheist's in a smokey hallway." someone else said about religion It couldn't Hurt.
February 6, 2008 at 8:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jester1cp (anonymous) says...
In one post smoke states"gandi and mlk need to be taught in school" in another he post a link to the most anti semitic hoax ever.Plus he misspelled protocol and elders wrong.What a tool.Hey "Smoke" why dont you go smoke another bowl!
February 6, 2008 at 8:43 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Hadleyburg_Press (anonymous) says...
Jazzslave,
I have been pro Israel for the better part of my life. Nothing there has changed. The one thing that I take issue with is illegal settlements not the legal ones. These are illegal under Israeli law. The justification for these settlements has always been a divine right. These zealots make up a very, very small minority of the overall Jewish poplution. They have also had terrorists among their ranks that kill innocent arabs. These folks do nothing to promote the peace that the majority of the Israeli population seek. Nor do I have any love for any palestinian or arab that takes up arms against Israel.
Thanks for the history lesson. It was so long ago that I was starting to forget. I remember it like it was yesterday, do you? Oh and by the way, please try to place me in with better company next time.
February 6, 2008 at 8:52 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Hadleyburg_Press (anonymous) says...
One more thing JS,
I sincerely appreciate your defense of Israel and your reaction to what you erroneously thought was an anti-semite post. If you knew me and my history, you would know just how absurd that would be. You did not offend me and I still respect you and your comments.
February 6, 2008 at 9:22 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JazzSlave (anonymous) says...
outsiderlookingin:
I'm not an atheist.
Hadleyburg_Press:
Actually, I interpreted your comments as more anti-Christian than anything else; and somewhat anti-Israel (not the same as anti-Semitic). You trash Christians whose support of Israel is rooted in scripture. You laud my support (presumably) because it isn't.
I DID misinterpret which settlements you were talking about, and with all due respect, it's a red herring. Israel has been very harsh with what you yourself characterize as "very, very small minority of the overall Jewish poplution." To trot them out as justification for Arab medieval bloodlust suggests a moral equivalence to which the "Palestinians" are not entitled. One might just as well countenance shooting up a church congregation because Eric Rudolph is a Christian.
If the Jewish extremists were to magically disappear tomorrow, nothing would change, and the Arab/Muslim/"Palestinian" barbarism would continue unabated.
February 6, 2008 at 10:24 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Hadleyburg_Press (anonymous) says...
Jazzslave,
You and I agree and I apologize if my initial post was lazy and ambiguous. And no, I am not anti-christian nor anti-religious. I merely suggest that most things done in the name of religion carry us further away from God. Specifically dogmatic zealotry. Atleast that has been my personal experience and belief. Perhaps your experiences are different and for this I am greatful.
February 6, 2008 at 10:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
outsiderlookingin (anonymous) says...
jazzslave my bad I had to google agnostic to see the difference. See you learn something new everyday it was worth getting out of bed .
February 6, 2008 at 11:07 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
andymanout (anonymous) says...
Mary and Joseph! I have to say, the religious banter thrown about here is somewhat reminiscent of many a late night I spent in college. What I learned from all those sessions was this.
No individual or group has the right to insist any beliefs are the only possibly correct version of the truth. I can tell you what I believe and you can take it or leave it. The same goes for you.
Here in the U.S.A. everyone has the right to believe as they wish. As long as no harm is done, you can practice your beliefs. Here we not only allow it. We encourage it. This is not the case in far to many a nation. Here we let you live.
Faith is a choice every individual must make for themselves. It is not your faith if it is forced upon you.
I could not voice this opinion in downtown Baghdad in 2000 without fear of reprisals. The same could be said for places in Syria, Egypt, Iran,... This is true in many far away places that unfortunately most Americans will never see. Here its a right there its a liability. That lack of experience leaves room for doubt. Where theres doubt theres speculation. From that point on its a guessing game.
Jazz Slave
Ever since I learned about the six day war, I've been rooting for Israel. What the heck? I like the underdog. Especially when it's a badass underdog!
I picked the Giants too ;-)
February 7, 2008 at 12:03 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Faith (anonymous) says...
The word Bible is Greek for biblia, which means books. The Bible is comprised of 66 books written by 40+ authors over 1,600+ years. There are 24,000 manuscripts to authenticate the Bible. The Samaritan Pentateuch manuscripts contain every single word in the Hebrew Torah. Both are by rival peoples, but both accept their authenticity as the five books of Moses or Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. The Dead Sea Scrolls validate many books and are some of the oldest preserved manuscripts in the world. Fact or fiction you decide.
Archaeologists will not find whole Bibles from earlier times because when the scribes finished copying the books they counted and verified every single letter. Once confirmed as an exact replica, the original manuscript was destroyed.
There are numerous versions of the Bible which make reading easier; but each stays true to the original text. 90% of the world has the complete Bible in its own language. The gospel of Mark is the most widely translated book in over 880 languages 97% of the world languages. These books are applicable as texts for history because over the 1,600 + years it took the authors to write them, they are all in perfect harmony with each other. The Bible is the most widely read, translated, and distributed book ever. Fact or fiction you decide.
As a Christian who highly esteems the Jewish faith, I would never force my beliefs or religion upon anyone. I am not a perfect person; I am just forgiven by our creator because I believe in Jesus. Not all of my friends believe as I do, yet I love them anyway. I once told a friend I have found the perfect pair of jeans that fit me and make my butt appear smaller, so I am going to tell you about them, where I got them, and how much they cost. It is up to you to try them on. I love the passion that spirituality evokes in all of us. I believe it is that way because we have an innate sense to worship a higher power. It is in all of us; what we do with it is up to all of us. I mean no disrespect to those who do not believe in what I believe, but the Bible is an authentic document. With a little faith I have experienced a life change in myself and my family. No one can prove 100% there is a God, but my life is a testimony for the joy and contentment He gives me when times are hard. I believe. My God has worked miracles in my life. Is it so wrong to believe in a God that restores faith and life even if I can't prove it? The Old Testament has many stories I do not understand, but I am not meant to be as smart as my God. I would not want to worship A god that was my equal. My God is sovereign, so I must wait till Heaven to understand many things I do not know now. Its OK its Faith. The wind blows and I cannot see it yet it is there I feel it. God exists and I cannot see Him, yet He is here I feel it. Faith is not a bad thing:.
February 7, 2008 at 9:17 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
freshair (anonymous) says...
Hunter, you are in need of a lesson in human history. Most wars are not caused by 'religion' but what has been a basic human desire and need since Day One of man's appearance on Earth. People organize into groups then tribes then nations and when they reach a certain mass of population they require more territory to sustain their community, or in the case of nomadic groups they have used up all the material needed to feed themselves and their livestock.All the great early empires of antiquity, Greece, Egypt, Persia, China, Rome waged wars of conquest for the wealth and power that it brought, not for any 'religious' reasons. The Mongolians of Genghis Khan and his sons and grandsons are estimated to have killed more people through their conquests than any other up until the wars of the 20th century. The Mongolians were a nomadic empire and they waged wars and massacred millions because that's what nomadic nations did, not because of any religious imperative.
Outside of the Crusades and the spread of Islam, very few wars can be attributed to Religion. Most have been caused by greed and coveting what the folks across the next valley or river possess.
February 7, 2008 at 9:21 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
suckerfreeforlife (anonymous) says...
Hunterdog
Yes, every one of us lives on stolen land.
freshair's creative spin on the history of this land, even if true, does not change the fact that this land was occupied, and we stole it amidst a campaign of genocide.
You dont need to feel guilty about it (i dont, but im not proud of it), you just need to admit its true and be consistent. If the Ute were to bomb the gondola maze on a powder day, or one of the free concerts in the summer, would you simply ask, "Well, how would you feel if your land was stolen" Assuming, of course, you were still around to ask anything at all.
Before you get too defensive, you should know that i agree with most of the content of most of your posts. I just thought this needed clarification.
Jazzslave
Your post is a thing of beauty. Excellent work.
February 7, 2008 at 9:26 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ColoradoNative (anonymous) says...
Pray for Israel? What about our boys who were sent there to defend the holy land?
If you recall Saddam was launching scuds at Israel and it was Israel who so graciously held off restraint. Instead America got sucked into their war. We're still dieing for it and still paying for it and we can't even afford it.
I have no problem with Israel's desire to exist. It's the same with any nation or culture.
It's all but determined that there is going to be a "Great war" and the "chosen ones" will end up in Heaven right?
Sorry I don't see the destruction of the world for a chosen few worth praying for.
February 7, 2008 at 10:02 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JazzSlave (anonymous) says...
Hunterdog:
Do you suppose Hillary will resume her dialogue with Eleanor Roosevelt if she moves back into the white house?
February 7, 2008 at 10:33 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
freshair (anonymous) says...
sucker, my account of the history of the settlement of North America is no 'creative' spin. It is backed up by solid fossil and archaeological finds and is accepted by most academic and archaeological specialists. You obviously have a computer and with it access to all the data. Use it!
February 7, 2008 at 10:50 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
freshair (anonymous) says...
Hunter, I accept your backfilling on 'Religious' wars as opposed to the great majority of armed conflicts. Religion certainly has its negative aspects but it has also contributed many positive aspects to the civilization of humankind. To single it out as the Great Satan is a sign that you have allowed yourself to be brainwashed by the anti-Religious cult. These people are mainly opposed to the Morality of Conduct which religion teaches. If you're homosexual or believe all drugs should be legal or believe abortion is ok under any circumstance or ultimately believe that all behavior is a matter of personal Choice and no business of any Government, then you see the source of all this 'imposed' morality, Religion, as a big negative to the the enjoyment of Life. So as there are many, many people in today's society who are for legalizing everything, all their attention and effort is mobilized against the force that is making their life more difficult than they want it to be------Religion.
February 7, 2008 at 11:02 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
freshair (anonymous) says...
Hunter, you've got to give the full context behind the story. In Gen. 19:30-38, Lot's daughters incorrectly believed they were the only people to have survived the devastation . They assumed it was their responsibility to bear children and enable the continuation of the human race. That's an whole different can of beans than the part you chose to highlight.
February 7, 2008 at 11:52 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
freshair (anonymous) says...
Hunter, you're taking an extraordinary morality-based stand there for someone who is so staunchly anti-Religious. Interesting position you've staked out--- Morality over survival of the Human Race.
February 7, 2008 at 12:22 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bloggyblog (anonymous) says...
theres a scene in the movie "munich" where Avner(the dedicated leader of the israeli hit squad) has a chance encounter with the leader of the palestinian hit squad. the ensuing conversation is both intense and poignant and leads to Avner's eventual unraveling. what he learns is that there really is not that big of a difference between the two, they both want essentially the same thing, simply put, a safe place to call home.
February 7, 2008 at 12:38 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
freshair (anonymous) says...
Bloggy, yeah, a real touching 'moral equivalency' highlight. Only problem is, it never happened in Real Life and was a figment of the imagination of the notoriously anti-Israeli, pro-palestinian writer and playwright, Tony Kushner who wrote the film. And now you know the Real Story.
February 7, 2008 at 1:05 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Jay_K (anonymous) says...
freshair- "however you want to define it, just as you cannot definitively prove the existence of a God(s), Super-Intelligence Life Form or Omnipotent Cosmic Universal Creator so also you can not disprove the possibility of such existing"
Two words: Russell's teapot. We can't disprove a negative, but we can assign variables of probability. The probability of a god existing is infinitesimal.
"Judaism and Christianity have extended religious freedom and tolerance and civil rights"
Only when forced to do so by atheistic (or, at most, agnostic or deistic) political leaders. Historically speaking, religions have had to be dragged kicking and screaming into not promulgating wars with each other. And I'm well aware of what's wrong with Islam and what living there is like. There's no need to point out how horrible it is.
seeuski- "people like you just don't believe that Jews have any rites[sic] to a homeland" People like me? Re-read my post. On second thought, considering your apparently dismal cognitive function, I'll save you the trouble and quote myself: "It's ridiculous in the extreme to use the Old Testament as the justification for a Jewish nation." I didn't say that the Hebrew people shouldn't live there. I said using the OT to justify it is somewhat ignorant, considering the OT is a litany of horrors inflicted *by* the Jewish people on the previous inhabitants. There are better arguments for Israel's existence than an appeal to ancient myth. As for how Joshua and company slaughtered so many of them, assuming the OT is historically accurate, I imagine the first verse I posted would've helped out. As anyone who's been in the military (such as myself) can attest, morale is an integral part of a unit's effectiveness. As word reached each of the city-states of the bloodthirsty invaders' approach, panic would've done half their job for them. No god required. And incidently, I was using the King James Version.
February 7, 2008 at 3:02 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
freshair (anonymous) says...
Jay-k, you do have a problem with reading Comprehension, don't you? If your ability to understand the English Language was up to the requirements necessary to engage in an intelligent discussion of this topic, it would already have been clear to you that the sum of my opinion is not that I believe in any God but that, outside of faith-based belief, there exists no objective evidence to support belief or non-belief.
February 8, 2008 at 7:24 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Jay_K (anonymous) says...
Faith- You are perfectly entitled to go through life believing in your god. If you require an invisible friend to face the truth of Nature's supreme indifference to humanity, I'll not kick the crutch out from under you. As for your argument for the Bible's veracity, see Hunterdog's post.
freshair- As Hunterdog noted, what an incredibly ignorant post of yours. Your misrepresentation of nonChristians is a prime example of a strawman argument. If you want to see morality outside any so-called holy texts, take a look here: http://www.secularhumanism.org
In any event, as seeuski has pointed out, this is 2008. Israel exists now, regardless of why. We need to move forward with diplomacy and intelligence, not try to shoehorn the modern world into old superstitions.
February 7, 2008 at 3:03 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
freshair (anonymous) says...
'Two words: Russell's teapot. We can't disprove a negative, but we can assign variables of probability. The probability of a god existing is infinitesimal.'
And here are two words for you 'Freshair's coffeepot'. You can play all the word-games you want, negatives, double-negatives, double-double negatives but the fact remains, and read this very slowly and try to remember, that which cannot be olbjectively proven cannot be objectively dis-proven.
There's a saying in Buddhism, 'the wise man knows he doesn't know.' Try and keep that in mind.
February 7, 2008 at 3:09 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
grannyrett (anonymous) says...
Good gosh guys! They are just asking for prayers for Jerusalem. If you want to add your prayers to theirs, do it, and if you don't want to, don't. It's that simple. They aren't trying to convert you or push their beliefs off on anybody. Jerusalem is always in my prayers as are all the other troubled spots in this world.
February 7, 2008 at 10:48 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
freshair (anonymous) says...
Hunter-dog, so please offer up your proof. Remember to cite the vastness of the known and unknown universe, comprising untold numbers of galaxies, containing untold numbers of suns, containing untold numbers of planets and explain to all of us who are not as smart as you the proof you possess that definitively rules out any basis for assuming the existence of a Superior Source of Cosmic Creation.
February 8, 2008 at 9:17 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bloggyblog (anonymous) says...
yesterday blog was leaving the post office, carrying a heavy package, trying to cross 3'rd street. there was allott of traffic and things looked bleak when, low and behold, cars stopped in both directions to allow blog to cross the street. talk about irrefutable proof of a divine being!
February 8, 2008 at 9:51 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
kielbasa (Matthew Stoddard) says...
Hunterdog-
Amazingly enough, you've also practically defined "Moral Equivlance," the last bastion of the hypocrite.
February 8, 2008 at 10:01 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
freshair (anonymous) says...
Hunter, I've got a newsflash for you, you don't set the rules for what passes as incontrovertible proof based on your concept of 'logic.' I'm going to tell you one last time and hopefully it will penetrate that dense barrier you have adopted to shelter your entire bag of preconceptions. When the topic of discussion is the cosmos, the life upon it and the life which may or may not exist in other worlds, ordinary, everyday 'logic' which can be easily be put to practise when dealing with everyday situations and objects here on planet earth, is inapplicable. And as yet,there does not exist any mode of investigation which is sufficient to answer these age-old questions, there can be no definitive answer, no certainty, no finality.
To believe in the existence of a God, or Superior Intelligence, is taken on faith alone. And to deny the possibility of the existence of a God or Super Creative Intelligence, is also a faith-based position.
Clear your mind and rethink it. (:>)
February 8, 2008 at 10:14 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
kielbasa (Matthew Stoddard) says...
I actually liked what you wrote, Hunterdog. I was raised Catholic and have moved on to Agnostic, in general.
The new show "Eli Stone" had a nice bit of wisdom when it premiered last week: (paraphrasing)
"There are 2 explanations to everything; scientific and spiritual. It's up to the individual which one to believe."
February 8, 2008 at 11:08 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
suckerfreeforlife (anonymous) says...
"There are 2 explanations to everything; scientific and spiritual. It's up to the individual which one to believe."
Yes, but its not up to the individual as to which one is an accurate reflection of the TRUTH. Anyone can believe anything they want, their belief has no bearing on reality.
Whatever happened to "Your entitled to your own opinion, your not entitled to your own facts"?
There used to be many explanations of this world, be it our location in the cosmos, disease, weather, etc. that were "spiritual". They have all been irrevocably debunked. This trend will continue.
February 8, 2008 at 12:32 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ColoradoNative (anonymous) says...
Please pray for the men and women being blown to bits in Iraq defending the holy land.
February 8, 2008 at 12:45 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Hadleyburg_Press (anonymous) says...
Hunterdog,
You're pretty smart (and entertaining) for a damn ape!
February 8, 2008 at 1 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
kielbasa (Matthew Stoddard) says...
suckerfree-
While I'm an agnostic, I also keep an open mind.
Here's one for you:
God created science and physics to keep humankind's curiosity occupied.
Disprove it.
Just as I can't prove God exists, neither can you, based on that theory, disprove it. When you die and can come back saying there is no Heaven or Hell...with pictures of just the black non-afterlife, then you are that much closer to proof.
Plus...there is still that Missing Link thing to worry about. There's also that Big Bang Theory. If there was nothing before the void, how could there be a Bang at all? No scientist can still give us PROOF; only theories.
Plus, humans are flawed beings. Humans practice science. Therefore, science is flawed.
Any other circles you want to go in?
February 8, 2008 at 1:06 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Hadleyburg_Press (anonymous) says...
Kielbasa,
How about this one using the "logic" of religion. If the holy books foretell of the future, then that means that all events are predetermined. Ergo, no free will except for that of God. And yet, the individual may have free will, but the destiny of larger events is predetermined. Therefore, regardless of our actions and those of our enemies, we are forever trapped in an unfolding play where the script only matters locally in so much as it effects our own personal potential salvation. So, what we do personally is really just a selfish act of eternal self-preservation.
Logically then, Judas had no choice but to turn Jesus in. Was he still saved for participating in God's predetermined play?
February 8, 2008 at 1:33 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
kielbasa (Matthew Stoddard) says...
Can't answer that about Judas yet Hadley, but if I can lead others into specific answers thru my means (and I have done this plenty of times and others have also), I'm sure God would have no problem planning that far out. I'll ask when/if I get there and can come back.
Plus, religion is based on faith, as is logic in a roundabout way. I say that because we have faith that our logic is correct...and it may be on Earth. Earth is but 1 planet in a universe only thought to be finite...vast beyond comprehension, but still finite. We have no clue what lies beyond and how it will affect our sciences. Our science is very limited in scope since we can only apply it to Earth.
Even our Solar System, with all the other systems found with planets, doesn't seem to be the norm. More close-in gas giants and no true terrestrial planets found. There is no true way to even say carbon-based life forms are the norm, without evidence of life elsewhere. We're a very small speck of sand in Sahara-equivalent universe.
February 8, 2008 at 2:13 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
freshair (anonymous) says...
Why would any Omnipotent Creator want to enable the life forms on planet earth with any means to definitively identify his existence? Much more entertaining to observe the human creature as he continues to grapple with that unanswerable question, 'What's it all about, Alfie?'. To reveal all at this point in time would be utterly pointless and bring to an end that wonderfully entertaining Petri dish we know as planet Earth.
The strident denial of possibility of a Cosmic Creator, besides signalling an inability to think out-of-the-box, is also the
epitome of someone firmly trapped by conventional attitudes.
February 8, 2008 at 4:08 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
kielbasa (Matthew Stoddard) says...
freshair- I don't think anyone can explain God. When you're omnipotent/omniscient, what do you do for kicks? Scrabble probably isn't much fun. Same thing as "What do you get for the person who has everything?" One way I like to look at it? We are God's "Sim City" or "The Sims" for his computer. If you've ever played it, you start by guiding the game, but eventually, it can run on it's own to a degree. You still throw in stuff to keep it from getting boring, though. Maybe that's why God doesn't interfere as much: we're starting to run on autopilot. Now, God just throws the occassional disaster at us just to keep it interesting.
Look at our imagination as humans: we write science fiction every day to the point the science looks like magic, and then we make it happen. The original Star Trek had hand held, wireless communicators. Now, we have cell phones. Jules Verne wrote "From the Earth to the Moon" in 1865...104yrs prior to Apollo 11 and 38yrs before the Wright Brothers in 1903.
Were it possible (and it might be someday) to time travel to the past, say even to the 15th Century, a common lighter or flashlight would be considered witchcraft. Our science today would be "magic" from a person with otherworldly powers to people of that era. Same thing if you saw a person truly disappear before your eyes, with no slight of hand: just "blip" and they're gone- no close the door on the box, throw a sheet over it. That would be teleportation- a scientific impossiblity at this time. While we could understand the concept, I think it would still freak a person out because we know it to be impossible at this time.
So maybe God is a the epitome of living things, for them to aspire when they've developed enough. Until then, why give up the secrets? Magicians don't.
February 8, 2008 at 4:43 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seven (anonymous) says...
Who was Jewish?
Mary, Joseph,Jesus,Apostles,Disciples,Partiarchs, plus the Bible was written from the Torah by Jewish people.
Why support Israel?
G-d called Israel the apple of His eye.Said His name would be forever be in Jerusalem. Told Abramham, Issac and Jacob(Jewish) their seed would be blessed and that Israel would be theirs in a covenent thru G-d forever. G-d never breaks covenent. He promised he would bless those that bless Israel and curse those that curse Israel.
Why is the Bible full of adultery,murders,killing of innocent children and liars?
The stories and parables are much like everyday life here today to prove no matter what you have done no matter how horrific ,anyone can be forgiven. G-d said all have sinned and fallen short.We are equally sinners. Paul was a murderer but later wrote most of the New Testament.
Is there proof G-d exists? The veil of blindness to G-d does not start to inch up until by free choice you have excepted Him into your heart and life. He said no one comes unto the Father without excepting the Son(Jesus). However Messiah(Jesus) has not been revealed to all yet. G-d reveals himself when it is divinely time to all. Thats why its important to allow others to worship or not worship in freedom. He works with all of us but not at the same cookie cutter pattern of understanding.
What proof is there locally G-d exists?
20 mile coal hired a contractor to dig a mine air shaft 1500 ft. down for miners to install fans. This was about 1-2 years ago. At the near bottom was 4 ft. snail shells from Noahs flood.
What proof is there anytime someone stomps Israel something happens?
The Steambot Pilot about 2-3 months ago had article about Washington,D.C. meeting at White house to give Israels land to Palestine. The meeting was Mon.,Tues.,Wed., by Thurs. morning one of the U.S. oil pipelines that carries approx. 20% of our oil busted. Check out national archives for yourself about what happens as soon as anyone does anything negative to Israel. It is easy to prove and follow.
February 8, 2008 at 4:54 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jester1cp (anonymous) says...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahyX1J...
February 8, 2008 at 7:19 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
andymanout (anonymous) says...
Simply my opinion;
You can not posses a thing when your hands are made from dust. You existence is on loan. Take care,
I'll leave it at that.
February 8, 2008 at 10:54 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JazzSlave (anonymous) says...
Virgin Birth
Somehow, a solitary female shark in captivity has given birth: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live...
Johnny Cochran is dead, so we can't blame him.
February 9, 2008 at 12:58 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bloggyblog (anonymous) says...
blog was raised at a school where you had to study the bible. whenever blog questioned anything, such as ' this stories incomplete. where are all the missing pages?'. blog would get reprimanded, almost to the point of being ostracized. one of blogs 'kinder' instructors said it was simply a matter of faith. blog began to wonder if religion was a tool to help people evolve or a means to control and manipulate. so blog began to study more, learned about the egyptians, the ethiopians, the greeks and the far east. so many different powerful civilizations, all with different belief structures. it was mind-boggling. who was right? which god was the true god? years later blog was fortunate enough to sit with a Hopi elder who offered blog this piece of wisdom. religion is the instruction manual for man. all the different nations of the earth form the spokes of a great wheel. all the spokes must be in place for the wheel to be complete and in balance and 'white man seems to of lost their manual'.
February 9, 2008 at 9:33 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seven (anonymous) says...
You read the bible with out comprehending it. Noah didn't fit every specie on the Ark. G-d said two of every kind. So you bring on two dogs. The species is in the genetic code of those two dogs. There is no need to bring in every variation of birds , just the basic kinds of birds that will contain all the variations that will come out after the flood is over. Fish were not on the Ark. G-d destroyed all life on earth that had the breath of life. Fish don't breath air and they certainly had plenty of water. The quantity of water is not an issue. Read Genisis 1, 6-8. The earth had water under it and in the atmoshpere above it. In Genisis 7:11, G-d broke open the fountains of the deep and opened the windows of heaven. The weight of the earth above this large body of water squirted the water out. The subsidence of the earth into the parts occupied by water also created todays landscape. The surface area of the earth preflood was greater than the surface area below it. So as the earth collapsed into the void it had to fault and tilt creating mountain ranges and valleys. Look close at road cuts through the continental divide the layers of earth are standing on end. Those snails? There were clams with them too. Everyone was complete. Both halves and they were all closed. If they died a natural death the mouths would have opened from decomposition and only the various halves would have been found. The Dead Sea scrolls support the Bible authenticity. The argument that flood stories as early as 1600 bc means the Bible copied from others is wrong. The Biblical flood was way before that.
There is free will. One needs to step back and look at things objectively and look hard at the things they are against and for. Otherwise one allows the twisted words of others to ensnare them. The Bible does make astounding statements, but with steady searching comes understanding. I'm not afraid to look at arguments for and against G-d and His Word. You give up free will when you close your eyes. Hunter, you are zealous for your position,I respect that, just be careful you are not some ones puppet.
February 9, 2008 at 10:02 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
twostroketerror (anonymous) says...
Deuteronomy 7:1-2 When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations . . . then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy.
February 9, 2008 at 11:53 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
freshair (anonymous) says...
bloggy, I'm afraid if your Hopi 'wise' man actually uttered the words 'all the spokes must be in place for the wheel to be complete and in balance and 'white man seems to of lost their manual', he was a 'wise' man in name only. Generalizations are the products of incomplete understanding. Using his method of analysis it could be said that American Indians have failed to adapt to modernity and that is the reason for their very high levels of alcohol and drug abuse, spousal abuse and the disintegration of their tribal cultures.
All belief systems, whatever they call themselves, whatever their ritual, all spring from the same source in human consciousness. The unique characteristics of each are a product of the distinct regions of the world where they first began. Learn to look deeper than superficial names and one day, hopefully, you will understand and recognize the Unity underlying all belief in a Greater Power.
February 9, 2008 at 1:06 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
kielbasa (Matthew Stoddard) says...
Hunterdog: What caused the big bang?
February 9, 2008 at 1:34 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seven (anonymous) says...
Twostroke:
You are right. G-d did say to kill them all. In fact read all of chapter seven. Not only shall you kill them, but also destroy their altars, images and cut down their groves. Vs.25 "The graven images of their gods shall ye burn with fire: thou shalt not desire the silver or gold that is on them, nor take it on to thee, lest thou be ensnared therin: for it is an abomination to the Lord thy G-d." The land they were entering was already promised to them many years before because G-d made a contract with Abraham for it and He also said Abraham's descendants (Israelites, the Jewish people)would posses it. Verse seven also proclaims their choseness. If the Jewish people had absorbed the culture already in the land it would have destroyed them. Worshipping gods that did not bring them out of Egypt would be denying their salvation from bondage in Egypt. Consider Numbers 22. Balaam couldn't curse the Jewish people like the king asked him to. Later on in Numbers 31:16 Balaam got the Israelis to destroy themselves by counseling the women of the land to invite the men of Israel to come to their parties and at their parties they worshipped false gods, they worshipped the creation instead of the Creator. You might be saying this is a bunch of hooey, but consider this. When you have an addiction it is a falso god you are enslaved to. You alter your world so you can drive by the cigar store to keep stocked up on cigarettes. You are willing to change your lifestyle because you are not willing to do without the nicotine or alcohol. It gets so bad you can't control it. It controls you and destroys you. You let your baby cry the night away in hunger pains because you spent your last dough on your next fix. It destoys you and the next generation (the baby). See how smokers break the addiction. Cold turkey is hard. So many stop smoking and start chewing tobacco. Then quit chewing to chew gum. Then sunflower seeds. Sometimes a worse addiction is picked up in place of smoking. Look at Matthew 12:43-45. Jesus cites a spiritual example of addictions. The important thing here is when you clean yourself (the house in Vs. 44) you must place G-d there to keep it clean. That spirit will come back with friends and you will be worse off. Any false god can be placed there, but only G-d can save you from the things you do,but hate, when you are under the false gods. When you accept Jesus into your life as Lord and Savior He will bring these addictions before you like Deuteronomy 7:22-26. Little by little you will destroy them. The addictions, the false gods, the things that destroy your life and the family around you. Don't leave one liquor bottle alive (a type of graven image spiritually speaking). You will stumble across it one day and there is a good chance to be sucked in again. Make no treaty with them, show no mercy.
February 9, 2008 at 2:05 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
freshair (anonymous) says...
Hunter, when it comes to pondering the mystery of creation and considering scenarios, you are presently splashing around the wading pool. Here's hoping someday you're ready for Deeper Water. (:>)
February 9, 2008 at 2:46 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seven (anonymous) says...
Hey Hunter! Come on down to the Deep end, the flood, I mean water, is just fine.
Using physical evidence outside the Bible to support statements in the Bible is not circular reasoning.
I understand your hesitation to discuss freewill. Please feel free to discuss it when ever you feel more comfortable.
Where did all that water go? Your looking at it. The earth was relatively flat pre-flood. There was no Mt. Everest, but note that sea shells and other marine life does exist in the rock formations on the Everest mountain range. Think of an egg. Now put another egg inside it with about an eight inch between the inner shell and outer shell and the void between the two shells occupied by water. Now fracture the outer shell. The outershell like the earth has to respond to gravity, it must collapse onto the surface of the inner eggshell. This collapse also must obey simple math. The surface area of the outer shell is greater than the inner shell and must buckle and crumple as it subsides onto the smaller area. Look at a global map of topography showing mountain ranges on land and undersea. Many of these faults/fractures are where the fountains of the deep are in Genesis7. The flat low lying areas like plains, seabeds were the hydraulic piston forcing the water to the faults and fractures then up out and onto the earth. If you flatten the earth all the water out there now would cover our heads by more than a mile.
The Egyptians came after the flood. Yes the pyramids went through the flood and post flood societies gather around these monuments today. Strange how the sphinx has water erosion and the Great Pyramid in its internal passages tells the story of the Redeemer (Jesus) and His people.
Ice cores in Greenland? This helps to explain the windows of heaven in Genesis 7. Look at Genesis 1:6-7 There was water below the earth and above the earth. This frozen canopy of water at the edge of our atmosphere is what fell to earth when "the windows of heaven were opened". (yes chicken little the sky is falling) So suddenly the mist under this canopy is exposed to the cold edges of space and turns to rain and snow. Greenland and the poles are areas that still exist today where the snow and ice accumulated and is still melting today. There will be no sediment in the ice because it landed over a 150 day period. Not millions of years.
February 9, 2008 at 5:47 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seven (anonymous) says...
How did all the animals get to their places after the flood? They walked of course or flew. As the valleys fell and the mountains raised, the water collected in low areas. Many land bridges were available to the Americas, Australia, various islands and the animals and people spread out. You know family visits stink after three days, imagine being on the same cruise ship for a year. hmph! So they spread out and multiplied and got to all these islands and places that favored their particular kind and later species. Don't forget all the ice and snow that fell out of the sky its still melting and sea levels are rising cutting off land bridges not just to north America but also Indonesia, Australia etc. That also explains strange structures and roads just off the coasts of some nations under water. They were built post flood but before the ice melt cut off land bridges.
The last argument on recessive traits, DNA, genetics is simple. G-d made the original document Adam and beautiful bride Eve along with all the creatures in the earth, plants too!
Then they all went forth and multiplied (Stick the original document in the copier and copy away). Then we listened to the devil and so we threw away the original document. We said "the devils right "we can be like gods" We then took the copies we made and made a copy of a copy. Then we made a copy of that copy, on and on. How does this fit in? Adam and Eve were perfect genetic documents and the first couple of copies we made were pretty good. The flood being roughly 1500 years from Adam there would not be enough genetic defects to run afoul of inbreeding problems with only two mating pairs. Even today my good ol'e public school taught me that for a space colony on Mars or the moon only 250-350 diverse people would be needed to maintain genetic diversity and avoid inbreeding. Not bad for only 4500 years between us and the flood.
Since were talking genetics what if we eventually clone a person and that baby grows and attends public school. Then later on that child goes to biology class and is taught evolution. In class the child raises there hand and asks the teacher "Did I evolve or was I created?"
Hey what about the heavens? Did you know that the Bible is written in the sky? The stars and their constellations proclaim the glory of G-d! Thanks to reading Jimmy Westlake's sunday articles on astronomy and the stories to the stars I've started to develop a keen interest in Orion, Sirius, Hydra etc. As I dig deeper and clean off the dirt the world has covered this area of the Bible with I realize G-d has given his evidence to the whole world. Why is it that many ancient cultures built temples on hill tops with starcharts included? They were tracking G-d's prophecies declared in the heavens!
February 9, 2008 at 5:48 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
armchairqb (anonymous) says...
Now I know what they mean by the old saying "you can't argue politics or religion" And if anyone is keeping track
it's accepted and not excepted.
February 9, 2008 at 6:38 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seven (anonymous) says...
Hunter
Ball is in your court on freewill awaiting your return.
Dead Sea Scrolls were just one of the many pieces of evidence I cited to you.
Katrina happened the same week as Israel was forced to vacate Gaza.
Carbon dating has huge failure rates. Nobody reports them they just keep running the tests until an agreeable result is spit out. No one tells you about the day old dead seal carbon dated over a thousand years?
I enjoyed your diatribe on atmospheric pressures. It helps one to understand how people in the preflood earth lived so long. You are aware of the long term benefits of using the bariatric chamber to help the body heal.
What is JW Christianity? I've never heard that one.
Somewhere G-d said that in becoming wise they became fools.
February 9, 2008 at 7:19 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Hadleyburg_Press (anonymous) says...
Come on Hunterdog, everyone knows that god placed all of these fossil records and contradictory stuff around as false props to test our faith. In fact, I think you must be one of them.
Oh yes and one more thing, if god smotes those that mess with Israel, why do we need to pray for Israel as the original commentator suggested? Must have something to do with god's free will.
Now as for those bananas, should they be blended with any one of god's fine spirits or do you want them straight up?
Damn dirty apes...
February 9, 2008 at 9:17 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
kielbasa (Matthew Stoddard) says...
Hunterdog: post how you like, otherwise you'll look like the Bore, and that's a mighty ugly creation, there.
I still stand by my post a couple of days ago: while nobody can prove there is a God, nobody can disprove it, either. Just because someone doesn't come to the witness stand doesn't negate existence. How else is everything created from nothing? Science may never solve mystery of the Big Bang...Theory, I believe it's called; meaning "unproven."
There's still that missing link to account for, also.
February 9, 2008 at 10:34 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seven (anonymous) says...
What local evidence again says He is real?
-K-Love radio and Air One locally. Try for yourself playing it one hour and write down how the strange anointing brings on a feeling of goodwill and peace.Then sample satanic music and write down and notice how the core of you really feels.
-Also locally Skyangel.com is available 14.00 mo.? thru Dish T.V.. Has most all religions to sample. Jewish,Catholic, Lutheran,Latter Day Saints(Morman),7th Day Adventist, Christian, Baptist and many others. Has family progams and various languages of music. Sample life do not be stagnant,we are all Bro/Sis.
Did Jesus leave any physical evidence behind for us?Yes. Said I leave the Holy Spirit to comfort you. For those that know him its usually discribed as chills that start or warmness. Euphoria of love for all thats not earthly. Sometimes comes as a tear of joy for those that do not yet know him while listening to singing or words said about Him .
Where's the proof miracles and Divine healing happen today?
Locally watch Benny Hinn. Visit all the various Churches and Synagogues easy to see for yourself and not hearsay.
Why are religious folks blasted as ignorant?
G-d said that they become like little children(The Kings Kids). This is because they are clay in the Potters hands.Notice the next time how full of glee they are. Giddy, shocked at how they love others so much,cannot hardly believe totally all of their sins are removed forever. Some of their words heard are "theres no high like the Most High". To the world they seem like fools because by choice the veil of knowledge only starts to raise for those that except him into their hearts and not those who reject him.
Who can come to the Father? He said whosoever. Don't let those around you rob what is freely yours. Unfortunately some are teaching those with certain lifestyles they are not allowed. This in return has caused those precious folks to feel they have no worth. So in return they attack anything religious. Bro/Sis Come as you are. You are no less loved. He created each of us equally. He alone works with us in forming all of us in His image.
Something that gives me great comfort is He promised to never leave or forsake us.I can say for fact this is the truth.
February 9, 2008 at 11:21 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Hadleyburg_Press (anonymous) says...
I used to cry euphorically when I watched Benny Hill. Does that count?
February 9, 2008 at 11:40 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bloggyblog (anonymous) says...
upon returning home from skiing, blog had a message from sister mary ellen moffat(one of blogs grade school instructors). she said blogs 'posts' were disturbing and insisted blog come straight down to the convent to see her. she made blog write "i will not talk like a heretic" 100 times on the blackboard, all the while wailing on blog with a ruler. ouch!! she also said blog should leave the political and religious debates to smart people and stick to things blogs little pea brain can understand, like skiing or eating bacon. so blogs off to ski in the sunshine and until the pilot writes an article on the merits of bacon... blogs out.
February 10, 2008 at 9:13 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ColoradoNative (anonymous) says...
How about this. Please pray for America. We're in massive debt yet we ship more of our American tax dollars to Jerusalem/Israel than any other nation. What has Jerusalem done for us lately?
February 10, 2008 at 9:31 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Jay_K (anonymous) says...
Sheesh, I don't come here often enough to keep up with the shifting conversations.
freshair- It appears you did not understand my allusion. Google "Russell's teapot" and read up on it, please. When you understand the allegory, then get back to me.
kielbasa- "God created science and physics to keep humankind's curiosity occupied. Disprove it. Just as I can't prove God exists, neither can you, based on that theory, disprove it."
It seems to me that the word "theory" gets bandied about pretty often, but not everyone understands it. A theory (in the scientific sense) is a logical framework for understanding observed phenomena. Claiming "god" did anything at all is not a theory, because it isn't testable. In that sense, it isn't even a hypothesis, as it's impossible to evaluate the merit of the claim. As far as the "Big Bang" goes, asking what came before it is pretty much the same as asking what lies north of the North Pole. Time and space did not exist (for anything to happen within) before the Big Bang; therefore, it's a meaningless question. And asking what caused it is also meaningless, as causality is an attribute of time.
As far as categorizing me thus: "The strident denial of possibility of a Cosmic Creator, besides signalling[sic] an inability to think out-of-the-box, is also the epitome of someone firmly trapped by conventional attitudes", I'll reiterate that I believed in a god for over twenty years. I was raised in a fundamentalist Christian household. It was thinking *outside* that box that enabled me to break free of the "conventional attitudes" of our society's faith in a god. Your logic is rather twisted if you believe atheists to be narrow-minded. Trust me on that; I was a good little Christian for a very long time... I *know* what narrow-mindedness is.
JazzSlave- Your reference to parthenogenesis is irrelevant to the Christian myth of a virgin birth. Had it even been possible for Mary to have done so (which has never been observed naturally in any mammals), Joshua (the English form of Hebraic "Yeshua", a common name for which "Jesus" is the Greek translation) would've been a female, anyway.
As for seven's posts... wow. Just... wow. Talk about the holes in someone's logic. There are so many scientific errors in that, I'm rather in Hunterdog's position... where to start? Meh... I'm not even going to bother. I will note, however, that your feelings when listening to Christian music does not constitute "physical evidence" that the music's lyrics are valid. If there were mile-high letters on the moon saying "Jesus was here", that might be physical evidence.
I do concur with sbvor on this, though. When quoting someone else verbatim, it *is* proper to state your sources.
February 10, 2008 at 10:38 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
freshair (anonymous) says...
The adamant belief or lack of belief in a Superior Cosmic Creative Intelligence without acknowledging the possibility that either or none could be correct, is the hallmark of Conventional thinking. So Hunter, that dog of yours won't hunt. By going from belief to non-belief, you have simply moved 180 degrees in the same enclosed circle. You need to step outside the circle.
February 10, 2008 at 11:33 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
kielbasa (Matthew Stoddard) says...
JayK-
the*o*ry /Ë Î,iÉri, Ë Î,ÉÉri/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[thee-uh-ree, theer-ee] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
noun, plural -ries.
1. a coherent group of general propositions used as principles of explanation for a class of phenomena: Einstein's theory of relativity.
2. a proposed explanation whose status is still conjectural, in contrast to well-established propositions that are regarded as reporting matters of actual fact.
3. Mathematics. a body of principles, theorems, or the like, belonging to one subject: number theory.
4. the branch of a science or art that deals with its principles or methods, as distinguished from its practice: music theory.
5. a particular conception or view of something to be done or of the method of doing it; a system of rules or principles.
6. contemplation or speculation.
7. guess or conjecture.
Don't see anything there that says a theory has to be testable. Plus, a lot of theories take time before they are testable. Evolution on Earth is tested...but we still have a gap in our species evolution. How is that tested with nothing to fill that gap. See below.
God, as a theory, works quite well. Otherwise, the whole Earth, life itself and especially logic are all some coincidence. I stand by my statement. I can't prove it and you can't disprove it. That's what faith is all about: you have faith that science limited by the thought process of 1 species is correct and yet you still haven't (neither has science) provided us with that whole missing evolutionary link. That been a stumper for over a century.
Jules Verne wrote about rockets being jet propelled before jet fuel or even powered flight had been tested, but that was just fiction and not even a theory, right? How long before that "fiction" was tested as theory to land on the moon? 100yrs. Does that negate what he imagined?
And the Theory of Relativity: it's still a theory overall, almost a century later. It's been tested but still not proven. Does that negate it also?
Maybe we can't test the Theory of God...yet. It's not time...yet. So look at the time those took. I would expect that God is a little more complex so proving God takes more time. Until then, people have faith in that theory...just as science has faith in the Theory of Relativity.
To paraphrase George Carlin: These are our rules; we make'em up...because we haven't found someone higher to dispute them...yet.
February 10, 2008 at 12:46 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
freshair (anonymous) says...
While we're on the subject of Relativity and Einstein, it is interesting to know what he thought about creation. Einstein recognized the impossibility of a non-created universe. He firmly denied atheism and believed in a Creator who, in his own words, "reveals himself in the harmony of what exists." Einstein's famous statement on the "uncertainty principle" was "God does not play dice", and to him this was a real statement about a God in whom he believed. A famous saying of his was "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."
February 10, 2008 at 1:13 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Jay_K (anonymous) says...
freshair- I think you've confused me with Hunterdog, though we share the same viewpoint. I understand your (and kielbasa's) position. I really do. You're both agnostic, leaning towards deism (the belief in a sort of Grand Engineer, who set up the laws of the universe and is just letting them play out). Agnosticism was particularly attractive to me when I first began questioning my religious views. It held out at least a hope for there to be a Creator, and an afterlife, and that there was some grand purpose for my (and everyone else's) existence. But I suppose I'm too rational for that viewpoint to stick. There just isn't any empirical evidence for a deity and I can't believe in the objective existence of something for which there is no objective evidence.
kielbasa- Please note that I used the term theory "in the scientific sense." The dictionary does not precisely give a definitive take on words... it gives their usage. People misuse words all the time, but in this case (the scientific sense) the word "theory" is very specific. As per Wiki, "In science, a theory is a mathematical or logical explanation, or a testable model of the manner of interaction of a set of natural phenomena, capable of predicting future occurrences or observations of the same kind, and capable of being tested through experiment or otherwise falsified through empirical observation. It follows from this that for scientists "theory" and "fact" do not necessarily stand in opposition. For example, it is a fact that an apple dropped on earth has been observed to fall towards the center of the planet, and the theories commonly used to describe and explain this behavior are Newton's theory of universal gravitation, and general relativity." A statement about whether a deity does anything is not testable. Therefore, it's not a theory (or hypothesis). A statement about whether an apple will fall when dropped is testable. When you understand what I mean by "theory" then you'll find your argument for a deity theory doesn't hold up.
February 10, 2008 at 2:05 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Jay_K (anonymous) says...
As for the "Missing Link", I believe you're making a "God of the Gaps" argument. Essentially, that's an argument from ignorance logical fallacy. Because scientists haven't yet found the shared ancestor of modern apes and man, your argument is that there isn't one. Unfortunately for you, though the fossils haven't yet been found, the 1.5% difference in DNA between humans and chimpanzees weighs against your argument.
As far as Jules Verne goes, I've read "From the Earth to the Moon" and he never tried to claim a god transports his astronauts there; he also did not use jet propulsion. He used known scientific principles of his day (gunpowder explosives, cannon, muzzle velocity, etc.) to form the underlying premise: an enormous cannon shoots a giant hollow bullet with people in it to the moon. Likewise, space travel today does not require a deity for its operations. In addition to this, thinkers from past generations have always speculated on what might be possible (Leonardi da Vinci's helicopter, for instance). None of their proposed ideas have required a deity for them to work.
"And the Theory of Relativity: it's still a theory overall, almost a century later. It's been tested but still not proven. Does that negate it also?" It seems you still don't understand what a scientific theory *is* and I'm not sure how else to try explaining it to you.
February 10, 2008 at 2:06 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Jay_K (anonymous) says...
freshair- You want to trade Einstein quotes? Try these:
"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."
"[The sense of] a spirit manifest in the laws of the Universe... does not lead us to take the step of fashioning a god-like being in our own image--a personage who makes demands of us and who takes an interest in us as individuals. There is in this neither a will nor a goal, nor a must, but only sheer being."
"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. If people are good only because they fear punishment and hope for a reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed."
"Only two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure of the former."
When asked if religion promotes peace: "It has not done so up to now."
February 10, 2008 at 2:23 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
kielbasa (Matthew Stoddard) says...
Bore- Your links (pun intended) still quote "theory." There is still nothing that "links" them to any other known species at the time. A 160,000 year old Homo Sapien evolved from...a theory to other species. Still no definitive prove, factchild. Go back and find that new handle you'll need soon.
For JayK- Human DNA shares many similarities with many non-chimp animals, also. Chimps just have the closest, but what was once thought of only a 1% difference a few years ago, is widened to about 4% difference, depending on the source material. What those online references also state is that chimps and humans share a same ancestor...but not how or why the divergence came about. It did NOT say we were descended from chimps. Can we attribute that to a Monolith floating about? Wouldn't that have been "God" to a primitive being? Again- while research closes in on narrowing it down...it still hasn't completely.
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/2...
"Humans and chimps each have some 3 billion base units of DNA in their genomes, differing by only 1.2 percent when compared in this way. Other methods of comparison estimate a genetic difference of at most 4 percent."
So 1.2% or up to 4% difference. Scientists don't even completely agree yet, depending on the method. Now, apply that to the ever-changing age scientists give the universe. Back in Jr High, we were told about 20 Billion. Now, were told the estimate is closer to 14 Billion. New science may discover even younger...or that the divergence between chimps and humans gets wider.
To use your own statement:
"Because scientists haven't yet found the shared ancestor of modern apes and man, your argument is that there isn't one."
Now, let's change a word or two:
"Because scientists haven't yet found the Creator of man, your argument is that there isn't one."
As for scientific theory...you're saying "scientific." Theories are not limited to science alone, but are used in every day life, by all of us.
If you believe science journals, why not the Bible? Plenty of accounts of being in the presence of an Almighty being in there. If someone calls it fiction, well, we go back to Jules Verne. For Da Vinci, a helicopter design is fine...but it wasn't fuel powered. Verne's was, no matter what the type of combustion was used.
WHAT gave those 2 people (and the rest of humankind) the ability to reason and use logic over any other creature in order to come up with the imagination to do these things? Evolution...fine...but evolution still didn't explain the divergence. Maybe in time, but maybe it will determine that there was a God. Is a scientist to narrowminded to rule out what they haven't seen?
February 10, 2008 at 3:04 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
freshair (anonymous) says...
Jay-K, anyone who understands anything of what Einstein wrote and said on the subject of a Creator, knows that while he did not believe in a 'personal' god, his referencing to 'god' in all of his published writings always refers to a Cosmic Creative Force. Not the anthropomorphic creation but the more non-specific and ethereal Formless and Nameless Cosmic Creative Intelligence.
February 10, 2008 at 3:36 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
kielbasa (Matthew Stoddard) says...
JayK-
20 questions time.
Do you believe in life outside of Earth?
February 10, 2008 at 3:52 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
armchairqb (anonymous) says...
I thought someone once said Everything you'll ever need to know was learned in Kindergarten . They didn't teach this stuff at the 1/2 day kindergarten I went to . Maybe I missed out , where do you guys get this stuff.???
February 10, 2008 at 8:59 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
kielbasa (Matthew Stoddard) says...
armchairqb- That's the question exactly: where do we get this stuff? LOL! Everyone will give you a different answer, depending on their own beliefs.
February 10, 2008 at 10:11 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mcminsteamboat (Marie Matta) says...
In the vociferous debate above about belief in God, the Bible and religion, or the absence thereof, I fear that two glaring issues arising from the Hustons' letter have been ignored:
1) Their view of peace in the Middle East provides only for a win/lose scenario whereby Israel is considered the only deserving winner and everyone else loses.
2) They apply a "fire and brimstone" religious faith to justify their negative position, but they do not represent the majority of "people of faith" who believe in a merciful and peace-loving God, not in invoking God's name to condone inequality and conquest.
I do not believe there will be peace in the Middle East as long as Israel holds all the cards, until Israel recognises that the Palestinians have the right to a compassionate and just solution, and until a deal where there is a win for every party is negotiated.
I am originally from Lebanon and I look forward to the day when all the countries of the Middle East can celebrate the common elements of their history, culture and religion in peace and can share in the potential prosperity of this ancient and beautiful part of the world. I don't have the blueprint for achieving this ambitious goal but I remain hopeful that it will happen in my lifetime.
February 10, 2008 at 10:49 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
freshair (anonymous) says...
mcminsteamboat, keep in mind, if the arabs at any point since 1948 'held all the cards', there wouldn't be an Israel. When your country is under constant attack as the Israelis have been for the past 60 years you are forced to adopt security measures. The fact is the arabs have steadfastly refused to accept the right of the jewish people to re-establish a nation in the ancient homeland. This is rooted entirely in the muslim idea of the entire Middle East as the Dar al Islam, Lands of Islam, whereby it is mandated in their religion that only muslims may rule in this region. But as a Lebanese, I'm sure you know this.
February 11, 2008 at 8:50 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
freshair (anonymous) says...
Hunter, the first terror attacks were committed by the arabs in the 1920-21. Why bother to state selective 'facts' when you are either ignorant or deliberately omitting the whole story? The Jews would have been happy to share the land with the arabs, and many arabs, including King Faisal of TransJordan welcomed their return and saw it as an oportunity for the local arabs to benefit from the development that the Jews would, and did, build throughout what is now Israel. Unfortunately, then as now, the Fundamentalist muslims were the real power and they, as they do today, were against any non-muslim presence in the Middle East. The irony is that if the arabs had accepted the UN partition of 1947 they would have ended up with a larger state than they now claim. There's a lot of history involved in this conflict and before you start citing your 'opinion' make sure you know all of it.
February 11, 2008 at 12:55 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
summerbird (anonymous) says...
HUNTERDOGGEREL:
You are so dogmatic!
February 12, 2008 at 8:54 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
freshair (anonymous) says...
The point is, Hunter, that you chose to single out the israelis without providing a historical chronology of terror attacks which clearly show that the first terror attacks and massacres dating from 1920-21 were committed by arabs against jews. So what exactly are you trying to accomplish by condemning the Israelis for defending their population without putting their actions in the context of the historical record?
February 12, 2008 at 8:38 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
id04sp (anonymous) says...
This is all so funny.
So-called "creation scientists" try to find scientific explanations for biblical phenomena (including creation) to prove they are right.
Faith proves you're right. Nothing else is required.
Faith is like love. It comes from within, and you can recognize it in a heartbeat if you have it. Ever try to make yourself love somebody because it would be convenient, but you just can't make it happen? Ever try to stop loving somebody because it's inconvenient? People who have Faith feel the same upwelling of love when they hear the name of Jesus that a mother feels when she joyfully greets her child coming home from school. The difference is like that old, "I love you, but I'm not IN love with you," thing that so many of us have heard, or spoken, at various times in our lives. There is a difference, and you can feel it.
The proof of Biblical prophecy is when it comes true. The coming of The Messiah was prophesied by Isiah, and Christians believe that Jesus is the Messiah. Isiah also prophesied the reestablishment of Israel.
Evangelical Christians "need" the book of Revelations to come true to affirm their faith. Many believe that we are in the "end days" because of the prophecies contained in Revelations. The Second Coming of Christ is a way to get out of this life without actually dying, and people cling to the hope that they and their families will be spared the pain of death.
It is said, and I believe it, that the reason Christianity survived in the time of the Romans was that Jesus' followers saw him alive after he was crucified, and witnessed his ascension into the clouds. People who saw these things KNEW, by believing their own eyes, that there is Salvation in Jesus and life after death. Had it not been for a hard-corps (sic) of believers, Christians would have perished under the harsh hands of the Roman emperors and we'd all be pagans today.
By the way, the whole Jewish thing is that if you follow all the rules, you go to Heaven. Jesus changed all that, so that people are saved by Faith, and not by adherence to the laws handed down to Moses by God. Christians who truly study the Old Testament do so to understand the role of prophecy, to underpin the prophecies which predict the Second Coming. Mathematicians do this very same thing by proving theorems based upon derivations from first principles. In other words, they do it to convince themselves that what they believe to be true is really true.
(continued below)
February 12, 2008 at 8:59 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
id04sp (anonymous) says...
Anyway, the bottom line is that if the Biblical prophecies are true, then they're going to come true, and we cannot change them or hurry them along for our convenience. So, stop worrying about them and go about your life in the way your heart tells you to live. It is prophesied that Christ will not come again until the Gospel has been spread throughout the entire world, and this is one of the reasons we see missionaries going out to attempt to convert pagans. The scriptures also say that not all people will be converted, so don't look for that to happen either.
Some day, somewhere in India or China, some kid is going to hear a missionary preach the Gospel in his own language, and that will be IT! And how do we account for the new one being born next door, or 10,000 miles away who has not heard?
Seems to me, live births would have to come to a halt some time before the Second Coming can occur.
So I'll be watching for the global birthrate to drop to zero, and then I'm going to max out all my credit cards.
February 12, 2008 at 9 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
freshair (anonymous) says...
Hunterdog, your entire body of comment is
non gradus anus rodentum. And those are my last words to you on this or any other subject.
February 12, 2008 at 9:36 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seven (anonymous) says...
Hunterdog those like Freshair and others that for fact know the King of all Kings ,also know greater is He that lives in me than He that lives in the world. Therefore to try to taunt him out as if this is a game is foolish.
By your own comments the projection is you have not found God but are trying. Therefore the rest of us are more than happy to give you the tools and information. We can lead a horse to water but we cannot make him drink.
The following are historical facts on Israel
Arabs began to repopulate the land only after the Jews reclaimed it and the land began to propsper. No nation in the region has a longerstanding historic claim to the land than Israel. Saudi Aarabia was not created until 1913;Lebannon,1920:Iraqa1932;Syria,1941:Jordon,1946;and Kuwait,1961.
Israel has a historic right to the land. Israel existed as a nation until the time of the Roman Empire. Even after the dispersions of A.D. 70 and A.D. 135, a strong Jewish presence remained. The Turks took control 7 hundred years ago and ruled until they were defeated by the Great Britian in World War I as allies of the Germans. British Field Marshall Edmond Allenby took Jerusalem w/o firing a shot. Grateful for the contributions Jewish scientists and businessman had made to the war effort, Britian promised in 1917 to set aside certain captured lands(all present day Israel and Jordon) for a Jewish homeland. There was no outcry over the plan because the land was concidered worthless, unable to sustain any sizable population.
Since its independence in 1948, Israel has fought 4 wars: the War for Independence(1948-1949); the 1956 War,th Sinai Campaign; the Six Day War in 1967; and the Yom Kippur War in 1973. In all four cases, Israel was attacked. They were never the aggressor. Against impossible (God?) odds they won all four wars.
Israel is a marvel (God?) of modern agriculture. She has brought more food out of a desert than any other land. The Arabs should befriend Israel, import Israel technology, and make the Middle East, like Israel, a food exporter.
February 12, 2008 at 11:46 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Hadleyburg_Press (anonymous) says...
Nice rationally stated post id04sp.
February 12, 2008 at 11:58 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Jay_K (anonymous) says...
kielbasa- You can toss out ideas all day about the cause of human consciousness (which is really what split us off the evolutionary branch from which modern apes descended)... from alien monoliths (per the classic sci-fi novel, Arthur C. Clarke's "2001: A Space Odyssey") to the souls of aliens blown up by the galactic lord Xenu (per L. Ron Hubbard), from a universal field of intelligence (per Deepak Chopra) to free will as a gift from a personal god (per most religions). I can guess that it was really an Invisible Pink Unicorn (Blessed Be Her Holy Hooves) who taught early hominids to harness fire, or that the Flying Spaghetti Monster stretched forth a noodly appendage and made us self-aware. But really, the only testable idea is the theory of consciousness being an emergent property of the complex interactions of neurons (per most neurologists). The fact of the matter is, we really don't know why we're conscious, or how we got this way, but science offers us the best hope of finding out. There's no evidence pointing in any other direction, despite all the imaginary ways we can come up with. Scientists aren't narrow-minded in doubting a deity's interference in evolution, when there's no reason to pursue the inquiry.
As for why I don't believe the Bible... have you actually read it? Cover to cover? I have. I don't believe it for a lot of reasons... but instead, why do *you* believe it's true, and not any number of other mutually exclusive "holy" texts? Why is the Bible true, but not the Koran? Or the Venas and Upashinads of Hinduism, which are even older than the Hebrew Torah? Why isn't the Buddhavacana true? They can't all be true, because they all declare they're the only true text. And that's only a few of the holy texts still in use... there are any number of old texts for dead religions that no one credits anymore. Why aren't any of them true? You begin to see my point? If all of them claim to be true, and all of them claim every other one is false, logic dictates they're most likely all false (especially as there's no convincing argument that any of them are true). In most cases, it's only the ideological background of a person that determines his/her religion. Basically, you believe what your parents tell you is true, but that's an appeal to authority, and is a logical fallacy.
February 12, 2008 at 11:59 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Jay_K (anonymous) says...
kielbasa- As for your question of whether I "believe in life outside of Earth", I think I know where you're going, and I'll answer it. I believe that statistically speaking, it's highly probable another world capable of supporting life exists. Whether that world has ever developed life or not, is open to speculation because we have no evidence confirming or denying it. I would like to believe that Earth isn't the only planet with life on it in the cosmos, but that's just my own personal opinion. Now what your next argument is going to be is that the question of a deity is the same as life existing elsewhere: that there's no evidence for or against it, so the question is open. However, that analogy doesn't hold up. We *know* that it's possible for a planet to support life; we *know* that it's possible for life to arise on Earthlike planets; we know this because our own existence is irrefutable evidence of it. It's only the probability of life elsewhere that's in dispute, not the possibility. There still is no evidence of any kind for the possibility of a supernatural entity, be it a personal god or a "non-specific and ethereal Formless and Nameless Cosmic Creative Intelligence". And without evidence of that possibility, why should we automatically assume it's probable, or even possible?
February 12, 2008 at noon ( permalink | suggest removal )
Jay_K (anonymous) says...
armchairqb- What we should be teaching kids in kindergarten is critical thinking skills and a reliance on logic and reason... or at least, what they're capable of understanding of it at that age. Everything else stems from that central focus.
id04sp- A quick quote for you on faith by Friedrich Nietzsche, "A casual stroll through an insane asylum shows that faith does not prove anything." As for a few Biblical prophecies, here are a few that failed:
Genesis 2:17-- The day Adam eats the fruit of the magic tree, he'll die... he eats it in the next chapter, then lives for another 930 years.
Genesis 4:11-12-- For killing his brother, Cain is sentenced to be a fugitive and vagabond... then in a couple versus, he takes a wife and builds a city.
Genesis 46:4-- God promises that Jacob will return safely from Egypt... but he later dies there.
Ezekiel 27: 7, 14, 32-- Nebuchdrezzer of Babylon will destroy Tyre... never happened.
Ezekiel 29:10-12-- Babylon will conquer Egypt and scatter its people among the nations... nope, didn't quite work out that way.
Micah 3:12-- Jerusalem would become "a heap of ruins" by Sennacherib... the city was sieged but not destroyed.
Those are only a very few of the things that were supposed to come true, but didn't, in the Bible. For a longer list, see http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/pro...
As for the New Testament supposedly confirming the old, how difficult do you think it would be for the NT writers to write it so that it looks like they're confirming prophecy from so long ago? In point of fact, we have textual evidence that that's exactly what they did... namely the entire question of whether or not Mary was a virgin. Do the research and you'll see for yourself.
February 12, 2008 at 12:02 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
kielbasa (Matthew Stoddard) says...
Jay-K,
Thanks for the answer. Next question:
Do you believe that life on Earth came about thru a series of events that were purely random?
February 12, 2008 at 12:52 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Faith (anonymous) says...
This has been so entertaining! I am not a scholar by any stretch as many of you appear to be; however, I have dug up some interesting material to add to this discussion. I have several points that will aid the argument of the validity of the Bible and thus the reality of Jesus Christ being our Lord and savior and the son of God. Sometimes I stated sources often did not sorry. I may have to use a couple of entries. I apologize to interfere with your fabulous history lessons going on, but there may be others out there of various religious groups (there are over 6000 religions) Christians included, who may enjoy the historical data that backs up the reality of the Bible.
Included are proofs for the reliability of the Bible by Josh McDowell, Evidence that demands a verdict: Using Bibliographical Tests; Internal Evidence Tests; and External Evidence Tests.
1. Bibliographical Tests (Methods of the Scribes & Manuscript Comparison Study)
Methods of the Scribes - There is an exact science that scribes of the time had to use in preparing the manuscript including but not limited to:
• what it was written on
• how it was fastened
• the length of each column
• the line number per column
• the recipe of ink used
• spacing between consonants
• the width between lines
• counting the number of times each letter was used
• calculating the middle word
• If there were more then three errors after the production of the master copied, it was destroyed then began again.
• Once an exact copy was produced the original fading copy was destroyed to assure the accuracy of the most perfect example of God's word.
• The Old Testament Manuscripts were all tested to be true to God, and therefore 22 books of the Old Testament were found to be sacred text or Holy Scripture and divine according to Jewish Historian Josephus, Against Apion, in the early 90's AD.
• The 27 New Testament Manuscripts, were all tested based on: Is it authoritative (from God), Is it prophetic (written by a man of God), Is it authentic (If in doubt throw it out), Is it dynamic (Did it come from life transforming power of God), and Was it received, collected, read, and used by the people of God of the time? The New Testament books proved to be true by how it was used and not by a meeting or council of men Josh McDowell A Ready Defense.
• The oral accounts of the time were as valuable as the written accounts and all matched in perfect harmony.
February 12, 2008 at 1:37 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Faith (anonymous) says...
The Manuscript Comparison Study
• During the times of the great kings we have numerous manuscripts and parchments of ancient literature which validates the authenticity of each writing. Scholars and historians accept these as valid and authentic because we have the manuscripts to prove they are real and from the kings and scholars of the times. Ceaser has 10 writings from 900 AD with a time span of 1,000 years; Plato has 7 over 1,200 years; Sophocles has 193 over 1,400 years; Aristotle has 49 over the course of 1,400 years. In the entire range of ancient Greek and Latin literature the Illiad ranks 2nd to the New Testament with 643 manuscripts to authenticate it is real. It was written over a 500 year span. The New Testament is by far the leader in documentation with over 24,000 authenticated manuscripts over the course of 1,600 years. The events of the Bible are well documented and thus true.
• Even if somebody deliberately or by accident amended or corrupted God's word (the manuscripts) it would be corrected by the other 23,999 other manuscripts available.
• Bottom line- if you believe anything in history whether from Grecian or Roman Empires, Aristotle, Plato, or Socrates, we had better not make a claim against the historicity or accuracy of the New Testament and the Holy Bible.
• The New Testament documents are far more numerous, older, demonstrably more accurate historically, and have been examined by a far greater battery of scholars, both friend and foe, than all other ancient manuscripts put together. They have met the test impeccably. - Floyd McElveen God's Word, Final, Infallible, and Forever.
February 12, 2008 at 1:38 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Faith (anonymous) says...
2. Internal Evidence (Prophecy & Archeology)
Prophecy
• The most common objection to prophecy is that non believers say that Christians created the manuscripts with their prophecy after it had all been fulfilled so they knew what to write in the Old Testament. The answer to this argument is that The Old Testament manuscripts were completed by 450 BC, so the authors were long gone before Jesus came on the scene. If you are still not convinced, think of this. The Septuagint which is the Greek translation of the Original Hebrew Scriptures was written in the time of Philadeiphus (285 246 BC). So clearly if you have a Greek translation initiated in 250 BC then you have the Hebrew Text from which is written. Therefore, there was at least a 250 year gap between the time the Old Testament Scriptures were written and when Christ came to fulfill the prophecies.
• This is the best part. There are 48 prophecies in the Old Testament that validate Jesus and the happenings in His life. Because we cannot fathom in our brains the scientific probability of 48 prophecies coming true in the nature on man coming to earth to fulfill these prophecies lets just take eight and figure the scientific probability of that (an example of some of these are that He is born in Bethlehem, preceded by a messenger, entered Jerusalem on a donkey, betrayed by a friend, sold for 30 pieces of silver, etc). If only eight of these prophecies were true the scientific probability would be 1 in 10 to the 17th power or (100,000,000,000,000,000). To help us understand what the probability is, it is like taking enough silver dollars to cover Texas in two feet of coins from border to border, than asking a blind man to go anywhere he wants in the large state of Texas and on the first try choosing the silver dollar with a designated mark on it. Peter Stoner Science Speaks
That is the probability that the prophets who wrote the Old Testament could coincide even 8 of the prophecies and have it come true. Can you imagine now if we figured the probability of all 48 prophecies and not just 8 of them? This would equate to 1 in 10 to the 157th power, so what does this prove? It helps to prove that the Bible is not mere stories from men, but inspired by God. I Peter 1:20-21 says, He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. Through Him you believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and glorifies Him, and so your faith and hope are in God.
February 12, 2008 at 1:40 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Faith (anonymous) says...
Also, since you enjoy scientific proof here are a few supplemental observations: The Atoms in the Universe are 10 to the 66th power; Total Particles are 10 to the 80th power; and seconds in 10 billion years is 10 to the 17th power. The probability that mere men could make up the prophecies of the Bible and have one man, Jesus, fulfill them all, is scientifically absurd. Anyone who rejects Jesus Christ as the Son of God is rejecting a fact proven more absolutely than any other fact in the world!
Archeology
Since the Bible is religious and not scientific in nature many scholars feel it is biased and not proven to be true. Science deems the Bible guilty until proven innocent. Here are several scientific proofs of its validity:
• Clay tablets from Ebra found in the Syrian mountains in 1970. These tablets written in 2300 BC demonstrate that the patriarchal accounts are genuine, and clears up any misrepresentation of Canaan, the creation story, and Moses himself. One of tablets was written 800 years before Moses. Other significant tablets were found in Nuzi and Mari to validate customs and stories of the Patriarchs. Tablets found in Bogazkoy, Turkey validate The Hittites, and King Solomon from the Bible.
• King Saragon from the book of Isaiah was proven to be true when they found his palace in Khorsabsad, Iraq; the capture of Ashad was recorded on the palace walls all validating the authenticity of the Bible.
• King Belshazzar of Babylon in the book of Daniel who saw the "Writing on the Wall" the night of his death, was also validated when tablets were found recording the history of Babylon. These are but a few of the eye witnesses found to validate and record that the Bible is a documentation of true recorded events of history. If we believe any artifacts we must also believe the Bible. Bryant C.Wood In what ways have the discoveries of archeology verifies the reliability of the Bible?
February 12, 2008 at 1:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Faith (anonymous) says...
3. External Evidence Test of the authenticity of the Bible
The historical writers of Biblical times validate the Bible from their non-Biblical writings.
• Eusebius of Caesarea (AD 263 339) His ecclesiastical History preserved the writings of Papias, bishop of Hieropolis who was a friend of the Apostle John. Here is a direct quote from his writing. "The Elder (Apostle John) used to say this also: 'Mark, having been the interpreter of Peter, wrote down accurately all that he (Peter) mentioned, whether sayings or doings of Christ, not, however in order. For he was neither a hearer or companion of the Lord; but afterwards, as I said, he accompanied Peter, who adapted his teachings as necessity required, not as though he were making compilations of the sayings of the Lord. So then Mark made no mistake, writing down in this way some things as he (Peter) mentioned them; for he paid attention to this one thing, not to omit anything that he had heard, nor to include any false statement among them.'" Josh McDowell Evidence that demands a Verdict
• Flavius Josephus (AD 37-100?)- Was one of the most accurate and complete Jewish historians of his time. He wrote The Antiquities of the Jews primarily for non-Jews to understand the ways of the Jewish culture. He wrote, "Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works a teacher of such men as receive truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was (the) Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct to this day." Flavius Josephus, The works of Josephus
• Cornelius Tacitus (AD 56-117?) A Roman aristocrat and historian who wrote a detailed history of the Roman empire under Nero. In his classical works entitled The Annals, he wrote this about Christianity: ":Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus (Christ), from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus:." Cornelius Tacitus, The Annals
February 12, 2008 at 1:42 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Faith (anonymous) says...
I do not believe that the Bible has to pass the scientific methods to be true; however, these points should begin to open eyes to its possibility. Our God is way bigger than our tiny little brains. Science in general is too limiting for historical documentation. Without God in the mix, we are mere humans and limited to human knowledge or what we have discovered thus far. Scientific methods cannot prove the origin of the earth, so why does the Bible have to pass its test to be real. Do we not really exist since we cannot scientifically prove how we came to be? We cannot control nor recreate evolution or creation; therefore, neither can be proven true or false. But God has this to say about scripture: 2 Timothy 3:16-17 "All scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." 2 Peter 1:20-21 "Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit." I can't prove love exists, but I know it does because I feel daily from family and friends and want o give it back. For me the Holy Bible is from God; not because of the data I have presented today, but because of Faith. One day in Heaven, I will understand why it all happened the way it did, but until then, I will continue to read your entertaining repartee with muse, but live my life believing in the God ordained writings of the Bible.
February 12, 2008 at 1:43 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Faith (anonymous) says...
Many for you know John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave His only begotten Son that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have ever lasting life (in Heaven). Many interested parties who do not comment are reading your friendly banter and I want them to know that all you have to do to guarantee your spot in Heaven is to believe that Jesus is the son of God who was sent to this earth to be the sacrificial lamb of God and save us, if we believe in Him. Once you (I already have) accept Him as God's son, the Holy Spirit will come to live in you and through you. Don't be fooled however, being a Christian is not for the faint at heart, Jesus suffered and so will we. What doesn't kill us strengthens us. Babies learn to run by first trying to walk then falling down then crying then trying again until they master running. Anything worth doing is worth the battle to achieve it. Remember your first love? It hurt when it was over, but if you were blessed with love again, hopefully you didn't disregard it because of the fear of hurt. Love is worth it, even if someday this love too could end. Life will still present itself with hardship and struggles, yet you will have hope that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love Him and to those who are called according to His purpose - Romans 8:28. I wake up every day with my plan "A". Sometimes it runs just as I had planned and I am on top of my game. Other days, God throws in His plan "B" the Better plan for me. I trust in Him and know it will all work out probably better than my original plan "A" because He loves me. Love is not without hardship. My father was the best in my eyes, but I suffered harsh consequences if I disobeyed. I am glad I was taught by a loving father who disciplined. I know it hurt him worse then it did me. My father in Heaven is the only father I have now and I learn from his discipline when I make bad choices for my life. As I have said before I am not perfect just forgiven. God may not be real, I can't prove it, but what if, when I die, when you die, He is real?
February 12, 2008 at 1:44 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Faith (anonymous) says...
If someone wants to know more about what brings Christians peace and Joy, I suggest reading the book of John in the New Testament of an easy to read Bible like the NIV (the King James is hard to comprehend although all versions of the Bible imply the same meaning some are meant to be easier for the present generations to read). If you are a new or wanna be Christian and want to learn more about God and Jesus and their love for us, then attend a Bible based church like the Christian Center or Euzoa Bible Church that teaches God's word (the Bible) rather than man made religious practices. Here are two poems from unknown authors: "If God had a refrigerator, your picture would be on it. If He had a wallet your photo would be in it. He sends you flowers every spring. He sends you a sunrise every morning. Whenever you want to talk, He listens. He can live anywhere in the Universe, but He chose your heart. Face it friend, He is crazy about You!" Just one more.: "God didn't promise us days without pain, laughter without sorrow, sun without rain, but He did promise strength for the day, comfort for the tears, and light for the way." Unknown Authors
Back to your banter Gentlemen I get to go pick up kids:
So sorry guys this was soooo long....
February 12, 2008 at 1:45 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
kielbasa (Matthew Stoddard) says...
Jay-K,
I also wasn't trying to sound flippant about it. I'm trying to make a point, and I always try to add a joke with my posts when discussing in a friendly manner. Hence the above 2nd question. I never said I believed the Bible, but I don't discount it. I actually watched an old Futurama (amazingly enough) last night that was along the idea I like to think: If a god does too much, you become dependent on that god. If a god does too little, the god becomes forgotten. When the Bible was first being written, we needed that guidance. Maybe not so much now...but that's up for a different debate. I look forward to the next answer!
Faith-
I can honestly say I'm not a scholar of religion nor evolution. I am a sci-fi fan and an avid comic collector.
In comic books, there is all sorts of Gods, Demi-Gods, New Gods, Old Gods from real mythology, made up mythology, alternate timelines, multi/omniversal theory, and abstract entities embodying different aspects of the universe. Since all these things are written as fiction, they are entertainint, but fiction is rooted in non-fiction to some degree. It has to come from ideas burning in someone's head...the way the Burning Bush gave ideas to Moses in the form of the Ten Commandments on stone.
I think your postings, yes- looooong, were an entertaining read.
February 12, 2008 at 2:05 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JazzSlave (anonymous) says...
Yikes back to the dorm, contemplating The Meaning Of Life over beer & Cheetos.
Jay_K:
Lighten up, and look up the phrase "tongue in cheek" - re: your deconstruction of my post about the shark.
Faith, seven, freshair, & the faithful:
Christian doctrine holds that earth is anywhere (depending on which Christian you ask) between 4,000-10,000 years old. How are you able to reconcile that with the fossil record and carbon 14 dating techniques? The easy answer is id04sp's paraphrased John Lennon: all you need is faith.
I'm still interested in a more substantive explanation. This is not a "gotcha" question. I'm genuinely curious; it factors into my own agnosticism.
February 12, 2008 at 3:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JazzSlave (anonymous) says...
Speaking of the Meaning Of Life:
Chaplain: Let us praise God. O Lord...
Congregation: O Lord...
Chaplain: ...Ooh, You are so big...
Congregation: ...ooh, You are so big...
Chaplain: ...So absolutely huge.
Congregation: ...So absolutely huge.
Chaplain: Gosh, we're all really impressed down here, I can tell You.
Congregation: Gosh, we're all really impressed down here, I can tell You.
Chaplain: Forgive us, O Lord, for this, our dreadful toadying, and...
Congregation: And barefaced flattery.
Chaplain: But You are so strong and, well, just so super.
Congregation: Fantastic.
Humphrey: Amen.
Congregation: Amen.
February 12, 2008 at 4:08 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JazzSlave (anonymous) says...
http://youtube.com/watch?v=xOrgLj9lOw...
February 12, 2008 at 4:13 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Flinx (anonymous) says...
JayK
Another victim of the public school system I see. Read in context. Matthew 5:21-22. You state throwing around the "fool" word as condeming me to hell. If you read the entire account which you lobotomized it says "Ye have heard it said by them of old time, THOU SHALT NOT KILL; and whosoever shall kill be in danger of the judgement: 22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother WITHOUT CAUSE (emphasis mine) shall be in danger of the judgement: and whosover shall say to his brother, Raca, (empty head) shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire:"
JayK my nickname for you as fool is not without merit or CAUSE when I read the whole TRUTH. Not as you would like as you butcher the Bible. You are still a fool. You like to speed read and glean the Bible only for ammo to use against those you hate. The "body language" of your articles bear this out.
February 13, 2008 at 6:59 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Jay_K (anonymous) says...
kielbasa- Having reread what I posted, I realized that I never actually answered your question: do I believe in life outside of Earth? The answer is I would like to believe, but there's no evidence for it, other than the possible fossils of bacterial life in Mars' past. So I neither believe, nor disbelieve. Now, your next question, whether I believe life arose purely through random events: yes or no, depending on what you mean. If you mean whether I believe that life arose from the so-called "primordial soup" without outside influence or not, then yes. But it's been shown that carbon atoms (the essential elements of DNA and RNA) are self-organizing... thus, prebiotic synthesis may not have occurred entirely "randomly". There are all sorts of theories for how life originally arose, but still no evidence for divine intervention.
Faith- I said I would not kick the crutch out from under you, but by re-entering the debate/discussion (as you are more than welcome to do... I thoroughly enjoy discussions of this nature), you've willingly opened your views to rebuttal. Very well. Your first mistake is that you are again (as Hunterdog pointed out earlier) using the Bible (and other early Christian writings) to verify the Bible (and other early Christian writings) is factually true in regards to Joshua of Galilee's divinity. This is circular reasoning ("the Bible is true because the Bible says it is") and invalid in debate. Your second mistake is assuming that I'm disputing the Bible was written by a lot of people over a long period of time... I'm not. I fully accede that the Bible took a long time to write, and that a lot of people contributed to it. What I'm disputing is that any of those people were at all "divinely" inspired or guided. Your third mistake is here: "non believers say that Christians created the manuscripts with their prophecy after it had all been fulfilled so they knew what to write in the Old Testament". No. No, no, no. That's not what we're saying at all. The Old Testament was taken from the Hebrew Tanakh, which was compiled long before Joshua supposedly lived. What we're saying is that the writers of the New Testament *knew* the prophecies from the Tanakh, and wrote down events so that it would seem those prophecies were fulfilled. In addition, there is textual evidence that that's exactly what happened. Ask yourself this: how difficult would it be for the gospel writers (who *all* lived about a century or even more after the events chronicled supposedly took place) to write it so? The answer is: not very difficult at all.
February 12, 2008 at 4:45 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Jay_K (anonymous) says...
Faith- In addition to which, how do you explain the internal contradictions within the Bible? There are a very large number of problems with the Bible, and Christian apologists struggle to explain them away. But answer me this: if the Bible were divinely inspired by an all-knowing and all-powerful being, and is meant to be a guidebook for humanity for all time, why is there not a single verse anywhere in it that could not have been written by someone living in the first couple of centuries CE? And why even need Christian apologists? Why shouldn't the Bible be entirely straightforward, easy to understand for everyone?
"Without God in the mix, we are mere humans and limited to human knowledge or what we have discovered thus far (Exactly, and rightly so.). Scientific methods cannot prove the origin of the earth (in what way have geology, astronomy, physics, and so forth not done so?), so why does the Bible have to pass its test to be real (because science is all about coming to objective truth with as little bias as possible... religion is all about bias). Do we not really exist since we cannot scientifically prove how we came to be (I think you missed my point.)? We cannot control nor recreate evolution (Incorrect... MRSA is a prime example of our meddling with natural selection) or creation (Of course not. It wouldn't be possible for us to be anywhere in the vicinity of a naked singularity.)..."
"For me the Holy Bible is from God; not because of the data I have presented today, but because of Faith." I will reiterate Friedrich Nietzsche: "A casual stroll through an insane asylum shows that faith does not prove anything." You may have faith in anything you wish. That does not make it objectively true. Faith of the sort you promote is irrelevant in the light of reason.
February 12, 2008 at 4:45 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Jay_K (anonymous) says...
Faith- As for your call to readers to Christendom, keep this in mind: I used to be a member in good standing. I know all your arguments, all your appeals, and all your rationalizations. But when I actually looked with a skeptical eye at what I believed for so long, it became obvious: I was told lies. They were no doubt told with the best intentions, and those telling them were not aware of their untruth, but that does not make them true.
February 12, 2008 at 4:47 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
kielbasa (Matthew Stoddard) says...
Thanks again, JayK!
Now, in order to believe in life (whether proof exists at this time or not) exists outside of Earth, would you then believe the exact "random" events would just happen to come about in the same fashion in order to create life elsewhere? To me, that would mean it's not as random as we would think.
I concede there is no evidence of any of this, but that's the point. We would like to "have faith" that there is more life out there in the universe.
In that aspect, should we find life out there, it might be much older and more advanced than our sciences, making things like teleportation, etc., it indeterminable from magic. If they could perform things we've never been capable of in this aspect, wouldn't that meet a possible definition of a god, if unexplainable thru our sciences? That goes back to my time travel allusion: if the science isn't explained to the lesser developed species, it's in essence, magic/supernatural.
It could be a species so far evolved to have left physical shells behind and using telepathy to communicate. Wasn't that the essence of the Burning Bush to Moses? A little TK to hammer out the tablets? Sure it sounds far out...but since we use a very small portion of our brain capacity consciously, maybe it's even something the human race will aspire to eons down the road.
It's a reach, but that's what having faith is all about.
February 12, 2008 at 5:18 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seven (anonymous) says...
Why are those of you that keep saying prove there is a God still not addressing my information in the beginning? Remember? Easy to prove. God blesses those who bless Israel and curses those that curse Israel. This alone proves He is real. You know this and will not step up. Look back in history. Anyone who goes against Israel gets squashed. Quit avoiding the subject and copying another man's writings and research it for yourself. Somebody must be bold enough if you truly believe there is no God. It's more important that your hands find and confirm it to be true than mine. I of course could do the work for you but my facts are nothing because you know me not.
February 12, 2008 at 5:21 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seven (anonymous) says...
Sorry forgot to add try to start with the most recent events so everyone else can follow along with information they at least have some memory of. Example: Study the recent date U.S.A tried to take Isreals land and give it to Palestine. Look at what happened in home foreclosures and the start of recession problems. Look at the dates around each time our government went against Israel. Shocking at what happened and undeniable.
February 12, 2008 at 5:48 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JazzSlave (anonymous) says...
Anyone know how old Muslims/Sikhs/Hindus/Buddhists believe the world to be? Just curious.
February 12, 2008 at 6:11 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
trustme (anonymous) says...
Religion has been and always will be the cause of all wars. My beliefs are obviously superior to your beliefs so all of your followers must be wiped out. It is absurd reality. I agree with Bill Maher, who said "I think religion is a neurological disorder. "
If you believe in some higher power, great. If you don't, that's cool too. But don't tell me that I am somehow less important than you because you believe that some loosely translated book over thousands of years is the literal guide for everyone who inhabits the earth.
Don't be sheep. Believe in whatever helps get you through your life. But don't expect everyone to see the world through your rose colored glasses.
February 12, 2008 at 7:26 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
kielbasa (Matthew Stoddard) says...
Nicely said, trustme!
February 12, 2008 at 8:14 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bloggyblog (anonymous) says...
heard about the dyslexic atheist insomniac? they stayed up all night contemplating the existence of Dog.
February 12, 2008 at 8:43 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Flinx (anonymous) says...
Its funny to hear you whiners try to slam creationism and the Bible by standing behind your carbon 14 dating. You are fools. Google "carbon dating flawed". Were not talking creationists slamming evolution. Real world scientists are saying it is flawed with failure rates of up to 50%. Dendochronolgy to back it up is flawed because the people creating the database for backup refuse to submit their evidence for statistical review. The part that really makes me laugh is it sounds like circular reasoning on evolutionists part. Trying to prove evolution with evolution. That is what carbon dating assumes. It is assumed by scientists that evolution is correct and based on that assumption they think they know what the earth was like and what the date of the artifact should reasonably be in their mind. They assume steady decay rates. With no idea of what the real ratio of carbon 12 to 14 was when the artifact in question was deposited in the dirt. Decay rate determines the amount of c-14 in the artifact. Higher than normal background radiation accelerates the decay throwing off dating, variations in earths magnetic field, volcanic eruptions and meteor strikes can also skew the results. Evolution is junk science. I'm shocked by some of the statements the evolutionists make on this commentary. JayK claims to have read the Bible but when you read his interpretation his ignorance is glaring. Hunterdog is obviously a follower like a little puppy dog. Just like a puppy he will eat anything you give him pro-evolution. The blind leading the blind. The believers in Jesus seem to be the only ones making sense. It begs the question. What makes you hate God? What makes you deny Jesus? What occurred in your life personally, not what you heard on gossip that, convinced you to oppose God?
February 12, 2008 at 10 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Flinx (anonymous) says...
oops I forgot to add this about JayK belief on arising out of primodial soup. One of the laws of thermodynamics states that without outside energy put into a system it will gradually slow to a stop. JayK's belief in evolution and life from a rock and bolt of lighting and things evolved into more complex forms is completly unsupported. In fact it sounds like that enigma called the perpetual motion machine except JayK's is "miraculous" in that it actually goes faster the longer it runs. How silly.
February 12, 2008 at 10:14 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JazzSlave (anonymous) says...
Nice rant, Flinx. I was under the impression that "Love Thy Neighbor" was among the more prominent Christian precepts. Calling them "fools" must = love & understanding in whatever denomination you belong to.
It's people like you who give Christians a bad name.
February 12, 2008 at 10:20 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Flinx (anonymous) says...
looks like jazzslave has misconceptions too. Do you really think "christians" are all simple little country bumpkins with a fifth grade education and never speak up. Many people make the mistake of taking words out of the Bible without even looking at context. Mt.22:39 "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself". Therefore you believe I should love evolutionists and not point out they have no clothes on, because that would be bad. I am loving them as I love myself. If I follow your logic:
Lie to evolutionists tell them they are right when my heart says they are wrong.
Yet Mt.22:39 logic states that I should be as honest with them as I am honest with myself. I should love them as I love myself. To do otherwise would be to justify turning a blind eye to church scandals.
They are fools. Even God says that. Psalms 14:1"The fool has said in his heart there is no God"
I've read all the previous commentary. For too long believers in Christ have allowed the world to put them in a box. Don't preach to me except on Sunday. Don't say anything controversial. Don't rock the boat. Thats old school. Don't be shocked when someone finally stands up. If God be with them, who can be against them? I carefully judge what I say. I hold it up to the light of His Word. If I'm wrong I hold my tongue. If I'm right judgement will be against me if I don't tell you.
February 12, 2008 at 11:02 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JazzSlave (anonymous) says...
Flinx:
I know more devout people than I do non-believers. Not by much; it's probably 55-45 in favor of the believers. Whenever I've discussed religion and faith with ANY of them, I've never resorted to insults to make my point, and neither have they. My Christian friends approach the discussion with genuine affection, or "love", if you will - those whom I don't know well have always been respectful of me, and I've always returned that respect.
I wish you luck in your efforts to convince the heathens among us. You're so angry and bitter and caustic about anyone who disagrees with you, you're going to need all the luck you can get!
February 12, 2008 at 11:19 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Flinx (anonymous) says...
sbvor. no and no.
Even the sun is decaying. Don't you remember? The sun is using up its fuel steadily in the thermonuculear process. Lighter elements to heavier elements. Eventually collapsing in on itself. All stars die. You can prove this to your self. Go out at night with a good telescope or visit the hubble telescope sight at NASA to observe some collapsed stars.
As for the amino acid fairy tale go to:www.drdino.com/articles.php?spec=8
The gist of it:
The 1953 experiment only produced a few of the 20 acids needed.
The gases involved react to sunlight and thus unavailable to help create amino acids. "Can't have your sun and eat your amino acids too, sbvor"
Oxygen stops the amino acid formation and the geologic record supports the presence of oxygen during primordial soup time.
February 12, 2008 at 11:34 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JazzSlave (anonymous) says...
Anyone know what the record is for # of comments?
February 12, 2008 at 11:49 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
smoke (anonymous) says...
flinx, how long ago was prmodial soup time?
February 12, 2008 at 11:51 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Jay_K (anonymous) says...
JazzSlave- Ah, my bad. I thought you were linking that shark's virgin birth in earnest.
kielbasa- I'm not quite sure where you're going with this. I agree that it's possible that life has evolved elsewhere. I agree that it's probable that if life evolved elsewhere, it wouldn't have evolved along the same lines as on Earth. I agree that significantly advanced technology would appear magical to someone not in the know. A flashlight would be incomprehensible to someone from biblical times. What I don't agree with is that advanced technology would be unexplainable through our sciences... at least, not in the long run. The universe runs on a set of (as far as all the evidence points) unbreakable rules: the gravitational constant, the inverse square law, the velocity of light, etc. Science is ever-expanding what we know about reality. The difference between us and biblical figures is that we have the scientific method, the tried-and-true way of learning the facts. We don't automatically assume that something we can't immediately explain is supernatural or divine (or, at least, the more rational of us don't). If scientists can't find a logical explanation for something, they worry away at the problem until they can. Incidentally, telepathy and telekinesis are impossible according to the inverse square law of physics... and there's also never been any empirical evidence for either. I'm a sci-fi fan, too. Time travel, extraterrestrials, psionic powers... these are staples of the genre, and always spice up a storyline. But I always keep in mind that it's still fiction, until something comes along to prove otherwise. I should point out that this: "we use a very small portion of our brain capacity consciously" is incorrect. That's a variant of the old "we only use 10% of our brains" myth. I know you don't like clicking links but you should read this: http://www.brainconnection.com/topics... Your statement shows a profound misunderstanding of the subject matter.
February 13, 2008 at 12:02 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Jay_K (anonymous) says...
seven- Oh? Let's find out: damn Israel to hell. Oh, dear. I just cursed at Israel. I better watch out for falling lightning bolts.
trustme- No, I wouldn't say religion is the cause of all wars. But it does make a handy excuse.
blog- Cute, but I've heard it before. :)
Flinx- According to Joshua of Gallilee in Matthew 5:22 "...whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." You really should be careful about slinging that word around. "JayK claims to have read the Bible but when you read his interpretation his ignorance is glaring." Please, point out my inconsistencies and/or logical errors. Ignorance is a lack of knowledge, but it seems I know the Bible better than you do.
"Dendochronolgy[sic] to back it up is flawed because the people creating the database for backup refuse to submit their evidence for statistical review." Where'd you get that, and don't you mean peer review? I'd just like to say that it's a good thing there are any number of other dating methods being used besides radiocarbon dating and dendochronology, because those two only date back less than 50,000 years. For instance: uranium-lead, uranium-thorium, potassium-argon, argon-argon, fission track, cosmogenic isotope, rubidium-strontium, samarium-neodymium, rhenium-osmium, lutetium-hafnium, paleomagnetic, thermo-luminescence, ice cores, lichenometry, varves, and so on. The geological column is quite clear.
As for evolution being junk science, I'll leave you for now with this quote: when asked what would disprove evolution, biologist J. B. S. Haldane said, "Fossil rabbits in the pre-Cambrian." It's late and I need sleep. I'll write more later.
February 13, 2008 at 12:05 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
trustme (anonymous) says...
Your cut and paste methods are quite impressive. It must make you feel really great to spew out inch after inch of babble. Someone may read some of your cut and paste if you could just understand the basic concept of Paragraphs!!!!
Then you could direct more people to the Creationism Museum in Kentucky.
February 13, 2008 at 1:01 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
id04sp (anonymous) says...
JayK
The Biblical prophecies you listed did not come true, so they were not true prophecies. That's the test.
However, comma, Adam and Eve did "die" when they ate the fruit of the Tree of Life. It made them MORTAL. Before that, they were immortal, and could never die. God said, "Let us make them in our image," and part of that image was incorruptable flesh. So, if Adam lived another 900 years, so what? He still died.
Despite our laws of physics, it has long been accepted that forward linear time does not necessarily exist outside, or beyond, our four dimensional universe. Modern physics teaches that there are parallel universes which occupy the same space, but the inhabitants, if any, are apparently unaware of each other.
Or are we? Could it be that we are only separated from the immortal spiritual plane of existence by our tie to this physical universe?
Biology and medical science teach us that aging is a function of time. Remember the cloned sheep that was born three years old? So, why isn't it possible that time as we know it does not exist in some other universe,
Certain particles seem to appear and disappear randomly and spontaneously from our universe. The explanation from modern physics is that, when they're not in this universe, they're in another one. I would say that this admission by physicists opens the door on the concept of an existence beyond our physical universe.
Quantum computing is being developed as a method to increase computing speed. It has already been shown that a particle can disapper from a point in space and reappear at another point in space faster than light can travel between the two points. We are on the verge of having a technology that depends upon the existence of another universe outside our known four-dimensional existence. So, science is about to prove that time and space as we know it don't matter (no pun intended) . . . .
February 13, 2008 at 8:14 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bloggyblog (anonymous) says...
blog propose's a quick and simple solution to the never-ending "god debate". each faction choses a representative, i.e seven represents the jewish god. flinx your the christian representative, jay-k you stand for the atheist. we chose representatives until all religions and various viewpoints are covered, then...into the octagon. last god standing is the one true god. we could put it on pay-per-view. lets see, how about calling it "battle of the big ones", no wait "diety d-day". yes thats it!! tune in saturday for "Diety D-day" because in the end their can be only one. p.s. smart moneys on Pallas Athena.
February 13, 2008 at 8:54 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
id04sp (anonymous) says...
HunterDawg,
First Corinthians, Chapter 7:
7:27 Art thou bound unto a wife? seek not to be loosed. Art thou loosed from a wife? seek not a wife.
7:28 But and if thou marry, thou hast not sinned; and if a virgin marry, she hath not sinned. Nevertheless such shall have trouble in the flesh: but I spare you.
"Nevertheless such shall have trouble in the flesh . . . "
This means that if you get married, you will find conflict in your earthly (in the flesh) life.
Can ANYBODY who has been married for a while tell me that this statement is not 100% true?
Paul was telling the Corinthians that, if they marry, it is not a sin, however, marriage will be a distraction from Godly ways and Godly works. This was used as justification to inflict celibacy on priests and nuns.
However, I would say that any married man ought to be able to support the veracity of Paul's warning.
Also, just for grins, if you read the dietary laws in Deuteronomy, you will find they provide excellent guidelines for anyone to follow if they happened to live in a warm Mediterranean climate 5000 years ago. This is particularly true with seafood and pork. Red tide, cholera and trichinosis were undetectable in seafood and pork prior to the invention of the microscope by Anton van Leeuwenhoek thousands of years later.
Hey, wouldn't it be funny if a lot of other Biblical stuff turned out to be true and valid in a few hundred or a few thousand years, and we are just too primitive to understand why the rules are there?
February 13, 2008 at 11:21 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
id04sp (anonymous) says...
No, Dawg.
I'm making a direct tie from Biblical text to related facts observed in real life.
You asked for a single shred of empirical evidence supporting the veracity of the Bible. I gave you several shreds of emprical evidence which prove that some of the things written in the Bible are true, or should be followed due to underlying facts that could not have been known by mankind given the technology of the day. People still die in Mediterranean countries from eating shellfish tainted by red tide and cholera. Trichinosis still exists in some primitive countries, and can be prevented by avoiding consumption of pork.
And don't you dare tell me that Paul was not right about having "trouble in the flesh" if you get married. I think he scored a 3-pointer on that one.
February 13, 2008 at 12:05 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Hadleyburg_Press (anonymous) says...
Flinx,
Would you replace the teaching of science, as it currently stands, in public schools with the teaching of biblical scripture? If so, why?
February 13, 2008 at 1:27 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seven (anonymous) says...
Hunterdog and jay
Have waited yet another day for you folks to disprove there is a God. Gave easy to follow information such as look at what He said about what happens to those that bless or curse Israel. History is loaded with that truth. That alone Is yet another truth God is real. The both of you side track and avoid this could it be you confirmed this with research but are not sure how is address it? Bring forth the truth.
Jay normally we need not know who you are but since your words were incredible against Israel. May God be with you my brother. Very sorry you feel that way but all have an equal opinion and we would like to hear from anyone no matter how harsh or loving. Much can be learned from each others life experiences and mistakes.
February 13, 2008 at 1:27 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Hadleyburg_Press (anonymous) says...
7,
"Post hoc ergo propter hoc"
Wikipedia
"Post hoc ergo propter hoc, Latin for "after this, therefore because of this", is a logical fallacy (of the questionable cause variety) which states, "Since that event followed this one, that event must have been caused by this one." It is often shortened to simply post hoc and is also sometimes referred to as false cause, coincidental correlation or correlation not causation. It is subtly different from the fallacy cum hoc ergo propter hoc, in which the chronological ordering of a correlation is insignificant.
Post hoc is a particularly tempting error because temporal sequence appears to be integral to causality. The fallacy lies in coming to a conclusion based solely on the order of events, rather than taking into account other factors that might rule out the connection. Most familiarly, many superstitious beliefs and magical thinking arise from this fallacy."
"Superstitious beliefs and magical thinking... " Sound familiar?
February 13, 2008 at 1:34 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Hadleyburg_Press (anonymous) says...
7,
"cum hoc ergo propter hoc"
Wikipedia
"Correlation does not imply causation is a phrase used in the sciences and statistics to emphasize that correlation between two variables does not imply there is a cause-and-effect relationship between the two. Its negation, correlation proves causation, is a logical fallacy by which two events that occur together are claimed to have a cause-and-effect relationship.
In a widely-studied example, numerous epidemiological studies showed that women who were taking combined hormone replacement therapy (HRT) were found to have a lower than average incidence of coronary heart disease (CHD), leading doctors to propose that HRT was protective against CHD. Controlled trials showed that HRT caused a small and significant increase in risk of CHD. Re-analysis of the data showed that women undertaking HRT were more likely to be from socio-economic groups ABC1, with better than average diet and exercise regimes. The two were coincident effects of a common cause, rather than cause and effect as had been supposed.[1]
This is also known as cum hoc ergo propter hoc (Latin for "with this, therefore because of this") and false cause. It is subtly different to the fallacy post hoc ergo propter hoc, which in requiring a chronological component may be considered a subtype of cum hoc."
February 13, 2008 at 1:39 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
curmudgeon (anonymous) says...
Hey...do you know what God spelled backwards is? And my dog doesn't even know how to read.
February 13, 2008 at 1:39 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
housepoor (anonymous) says...
man, you guys must have a ton of time on your hands............how about helping out with those roofs?
February 13, 2008 at 2:58 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
id04sp (anonymous) says...
HungerDawg,
I don't get it. You asked for any "shred" of empirical evidence of the veracity of the Bible, and I provided it. Now, you may disagree with most of what's in the Bible, and that's okay with me, because we have free will.
The owner's manual of my car says to change the oil every 5000 miles. Does that mean it will stop working the instant I don't change the oil past 5000 miles? No. On the other hand, I have seen cars where the owner never changed the oil even once, but only added oil when it was low. Oh, and I've seen them sitting on the side of the road with a thown rod and a hole in the engine block. Is there a connection? Yeah, somewhere between 5000 miles and a busted piston rod lies the truth.
Personally, I change my oil at the recommended intervals and use synthetic oil, because a $35 DIY oil change is much cheaper than a car payment. Got one going strong at 160k+ plus miles, and I've been using synthetic oil since 50k.
Some people will tell you that the Bible is the undisputed word of God. I think it's the collection of books that the Emperor Constantine wanted us to see, and men are fallable, and maybe not all the truth has been given to us.
So, I think the thing is that you should just ignore the whole issue of spirituality and stay away from people who push it, and you'll be a happier fella. Eh?
Oh, by the way, Isreal is sitting on more oil in the Bekka Valley than Saudi Arabia ever had. The only reason they're not exploiting it is that the Arab states would crush them if they tried it, mainly, because the territory is disputed. That oil is seen by the Arabs to be Muslim oil.
One of these days Saudi Arabia and Iran and Iraq and Kuwait and all them places are going to run dry, and their governments will collapse, and then the Israelis will be supplying oil to us because the Arabs won't have viable modern military forces of any sort. That's why we need Israel. The rest of it is a cover story.
February 13, 2008 at 3:21 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
id04sp (anonymous) says...
Not at all Hunterdog.
It is very well known that education is one of the easiest majors. They don't teach you what to teach. They teach you how to teach. Then they send you away and you have the teacher's guide with all the answers, and you're in business.
Think about it. You have people who spend four years getting a college degree, and it's only after they graduate and get a job they find out that the pay sucks. Well, DUH! And these are the people who we put in charge of preparing our children for the working world waiting outside the school house.
You'll call this circular logic, so whatever -- (did you learn the tool from messing with Excel spreadsheets?) --
Creation is a real, demonstrable phenomenon that we can all witness in our everyday lives. Creation is the process whereby songs and poetry are composed, pictures are painted, and new dishes are invented by chefs. It's all around us. You find it in every man-made object. The Wright Brothers didn't just invent the first practical powered airplane; they CREATED it from raw materials using original ideas which somehow popped into their heads. It wasn't assembled from a kit.
Spiders spin distinctive webs, depending on the species. Birds build distinctive nests, again, depending on the species. Whale songs change and evolve over time, but so far, I've not seen an underwater condo constructed by a whale. Humans are, so far, the only aminals (sic) who have demonstrated the ability to create something new and novel from raw materials -- the clay of the Earth, if you can make that stretch of imagination. If not, then just take the idea of a mud brick which is, literally, created by man from materials found in the ground.
The story of the Creation follows the paradigm of human creative abilities. As I posted above, if we were created in God's image, then the urge and ability to create is a part of that image.
An intelligent, free-thinking person (such as myself) is not bound to a single point of view. This is not a hard concept for smart people to grasp. Being able to approach a problem from a different point of view allows us to anticipate how others will react, such as in a game of Chess. "If I move my Queen over there, what can he do, and what will he do?" Thinking ahead several moves is a part of the game.
I'll grant you that the concept of God may have been created by people. Heck, George Lucas invented "The Force" are there are people who actually believe in such a thing. I won't even go into Scientology.
Anyway, the essence of intelligence is the ability to think in abstract terms, and I am perfectly able to ponder the concepts of Creation and evolution on equal terms.
February 14, 2008 at 8:47 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
424now (anonymous) says...
Isreal is here to stay, deal with it.
Now since the middle east is so low on prime real estate. Throw the Palestinians a bone. A little one now, remember they led the charge in the six day war and are to this day acting as agressors, terrorists and murderers. Ok that was a generalization, its only their leadership that does that.
February 13, 2008 at 6:52 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
id04sp (anonymous) says...
Hunter,
Check the names, Bubba.
By the way, telling me that you teach 10th graders as something to support your level of education and intelligence is a real hoot. Teaching high school is just a little bit harder than going to high school. Come to think of it, teaching high school is probably easier than being a high school student.
Tell ya what. Go study statistical theory at the Masters level for a year, and then come back, and we'll discuss Type I and Type II errors.
The inability to prove that something exists does not prove lack of existence. It only proves a lack of abililty to detect what's there. It's called "false negative" if you'd like to Google it.
February 13, 2008 at 9:16 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
freshair (anonymous) says...
It has been well-documented that students who are education majors rank at the bottom of every testing and exit testing parameter. The scandalous rates of failure for these 'graduates' to pass state licensing and certification exams is notable.
February 14, 2008 at 9:09 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
id04sp (anonymous) says...
(continued)
It has been about 65 millions years since the extinction of the dinosaurs. Humans developed intelligence, emotion and creativity in about the past two million years according to the geological records. The dinosaurs were around for about 150 million years, yet, we find no evidence of civilized development even though they had twice as long to evolve intelligence and establish a civilization as we've had.
Assuming that mutations occur randomly over time, and are manifested in a single generation, the dinosaurs had orders of magnitude higher probabilities of developing intelligence through evolution in their 150 million years on the planet than we've had in less than 1/2 the same time (65 million years). If we are a model of what's "average," the dinosaurs should have been riding around in flying saucers by the time they became extinct.
Paleontologists and anthropoligists speculate that our evolution from lower mammals was made possible by the extinction of the large, predatory dinosaurs which filled the niches at the top of the food chain. Doesn't it make sense that the large predators at the top of the food chain were in a prime position to also evolve intelligence, and were there a lot longer than we've been there?
Let's be generous and say that intelligence would only arise in any single species by chance in any period of one million years. Given that model, it's been done by one species, us, in 65 million years, so we have a sample mean of 1/65. With no other information to go on, we have a simple binomial distribution to work with. So, based on the observed occurrence of one intelligent species having evolved in 65 million years, (1 in 65), the chances that the dinosaurs would have developed intelligence by the time they'd been around for 150 millions years is .902, or just over 90%.
So, Mr. or Ms. Empirical, why didn't it happen? Bad luck? If we really dug in and looked at mutation rates over time and used some better statistical models, the dinosaurs should have been MUCH more likely to develop intelligence by the time they became extinct than us. Yet, they died out as big dumb animals and we are here flying to the Moon in less than 1/2 the time.
So now my question to you is, why are humans the only apparent intelligent species to develop tools, language, civiliazation, etc., in the history of the Earth? Don't the probabilities say that there should be others here with us? Using my crude model, each species on Earth should have had a 63% chance of developing intelligence in the last 65 million years. And there are tens of thousands of other species. What about elephants, big cats, dogs, horses, cows, etc?
What about sharks and crocodiles? They have not evolved at all in 65 million years according to the fossil record. What's up with that?
February 14, 2008 at 9:51 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
id04sp (anonymous) says...
(continued)
So, I'm not going to tell you that any of this proves anything. I'll just wait for you to explain to me why random mutations and evolution occur in some species, and not in others. Is there any law that says cows couldn't have opposable thumbs, vocal cords, and frontal lobes?
Just tell me why we are unique in the animal kingdom, and in the 570,000,000 years since animal life appeared on Earth, why there are no other intelligent species living alongside us. According to the "chance evolution" theory, there should have been thousands in the history of the Earth so far.
February 14, 2008 at 9:55 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
twostroketerror (anonymous) says...
Yawn
February 14, 2008 at 10:14 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
id04sp (anonymous) says...
Point me to a specific article dealing with the question on a probabilistic basis. I didn't see anything specific there. According to you, there should be a specific and empirical counter argment to refute my theory.
I'm not claiming we were created. I'm not claiming intelligent design. I'm not saying that the fossil record which supports evolution isn't there. I'm not even saying that mutation and natural selection don't occur. I'm asking you why we are the only intelligent animal species that has evolved to the point of having an advanced civilization. Why don't we see crocodiles hopping on a bus to go visit friends in the Amazon?
Again, I am not trying to prove that we are intelligent and human because God created us. I just want to know why it only worked on people.
February 14, 2008 at 11:26 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
id04sp (anonymous) says...
Sbvor,
Mutations occur randomly for a variety of reasons. Have crocodiles and sharks simply stopped experiencing cellular mutations? If not, how do they possibly stay the same? If so, then why are others still mutating?
I'm not saying that higher life forms are the end game, etc. I'm asking why wild chimpanzees and raccoons and even elephants (all of which have some ability to manipulate objects and use "tools" of one sort or another) did not develop the ability to use tools in parallel with humans. Shouldn't at least one other species have developed the ability to construct shelter, use fire, make stone tools, etc., alongside the development of human intelligence? Intelligence of this sort seems to be an exclusive human characteristic, and I just can't understand why it didn't also evolve in some other species by random chance.
Hunter,
I haven't said one thing about a supernatural entity being involved in the advent of human intelligence. I'm simply asking why billions of generations over millions of years have not resulted in mutations resulting in higher brain functions for other species. If saber-toothed cats had evolved a higher brain in North America while humans were doing the same in Africa, we might have different continents dominated by different intelligent species.
Is the genetic coding which results in the growth of the frontal lobes of the brain something that could have randomly been switched on by an identical mutation in numerous individuals? Or, is it something very complex that required a number of mutations which were unlikely to be repeated in the same order in other members of the species? Is 65 million years enough time for us to evolve from something like a rat into what we are today?
We know that there are genetic switches which cause cancer to develop. Some can be traced to a single gene.
I'm only saying that, if evolution is the source of our higher brain functions, then it shouldn't be too long until science is able to understand them in terms of genetics and biochemistry.
I say the jury is still out, and I'm interested to see what is discovered in the next few decades given our recent advances in mapping the various genomes.
February 14, 2008 at 2:32 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seven (anonymous) says...
Godhunter oops Hunterdog
The search before you is helping the unspoken with no blog comments. Basically this is the thrashing floor as explained in scripture. Pros and Cons need to be brought forth.
Would you answer this please?
Imagine being in a car accident . The emergency ambulance is at the scene. Hunterdog is barely alive. The paramedic says he's not going to make it. This Hunterdog already knows within himself. What would you do?
-Take a chance satan is real and decide to join him. After all satan was once an angel in heaven and was able to convience one third of heavens angels to follow him. Must be a smart guy who works for the good of others and would sacrifice his life to serve the people unselfishly.
-Call upon all that you have written in this blog for help such as the evolotion theory letting others convience you there is nothing reserved for your eternity and fold to it.
-Plead for your life? Father in the name of Jesus, I don't even know if you are real. If you are real come into me now. Forgive me of all my sins. My life is about to end here. If you truly died for all and see every sparrow fall and know every hair on my head I need help. Send the Angels to come get me. God you promised Angels would walk before me and after me ,you said I would be the head and not tail. The wonderful annointing could flow from the top of my head to the bottom of my feet. That my eternity would be with you. Please open the eyes of all my family and friends that I have misled while on earth, as I myself ascend into Heaven. I did not mean to lead anyone astray and could have easily been cheated by the Worlds influence. Thank you for sending someone bold in my undeserving life that told me about Jesus. A peace that passeth all understanding. Yes I feel it . I see ......
Please answer truthfully my brother and add any choices that may better fit you.
February 14, 2008 at 4:23 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jester1cp (anonymous) says...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKis54...
February 14, 2008 at 5:12 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Hadleyburg_Press (anonymous) says...
7,
I would hope that the accident occured near a Level 1 Trauma Center with lots of highly evolved apes present.
Sorry I know the question was for Hunterdog, but this reprobate couldn't resist...
February 14, 2008 at 5:40 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seven (anonymous) says...
This is a place where All are welcome. Religious or not religious. No boundries (unless the Pilot referee bounces us out). Basically a question and answer session.
Really enjoy the study of all beliefs. Would like to request in put on Routt Countys most popular religion called Wicca. Know this out rages some. Sorry you may have to leave this site but here we will get down to the grit of all beliefs.
These are only a few insites about Wicca I need some help with it.
-No God or satan.You are your own god.
-Most spend whats called a year and a day in black clothes and rituals before becoming a real witch.
-Cast spells both good and bad.
-Excepts anyone into the Steamboat covet . South Routt covet not as large.
-Must have sexual relations with some one that's not your partner.
-Out of the body experiences such as turning into a bird.
February 14, 2008 at 6:55 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seven (anonymous) says...
More Wicca information
-Prefer to worship creation and not the creator(God). This reminds me of some of the previous blogs,please enlighten and help correct any wrong info.
-Refer to themselves as pagan.
-Astrology directs ceremonies such as moon stages that influence the better times to cast spells.
-Defines witchcaft as a spiritual system that fosters free thought and will of individual, encourges understanding of earth and nature.
-Prefered symbols the pentagram,5 sided star with circle around it used in satanic ceremonies for centuries but wicca does not claim satan.
- Celtic knots-oval pointed circles,partly forming a triangle.
-Turtles as bumper stickers. This is the Eypqtian turtle.
-Butterflies as bumper stickers. This symbol represents partly the freedom gays can finally have because wicca encourages gays to be in wicca.
-Crystals used to see out of body experiences and healing.
One of the may parts that bring me heart ache is limiting our brother and sisters that are gay to just one religion. Should we not welcome anyone? Thats why He said Whosoever may come. If the religion you belong to does not welcome whosoever then why? The church body is suppose to a mixture of all. Its like an intensive care room. No one in there is with out sin. Yes, I know the Leviticus and other scriptures but faith comes by hearing, how else can our bro./sis know the direction He sees for all? This is not saying let anyone who comes through the door today, preach today. But saying get whosoever in to sample the goods.
If today you belong to a group that does not love and welcome all, consider leading them to the whosoever scriptures. If that fells consider changing fellowship groups.
February 15, 2008 at noon ( permalink | suggest removal )
seven (anonymous) says...
Hd
thanks for earth, wind and fire info. Forgot another major wicca symbol is the 3 dolphins in a circle usually a necklace but locally a bumper sticker more popular. Each person is said to favor more in one of those directions personality wise such as water being calm.
As for the question
I think it is sad and not fair gays are not welcome in all religions.To just be pushed into a few with hardly no choice breaks my heart. Love one another went right down the toilet.
Se ya Monday try to round up real life wicca input so we can all better learn about each others lives and therefore respect one another.
Have a great weekend.
February 15, 2008 at 1:02 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
emmalee (anonymous) says...
I won't debate religious beliefs with anyone. There are many differing view points and faiths that all put trust in a higher being. Each person should be free to worship this "God" as they see fit. Nobody can dictate another's faith views. However as a Christian we state that the great mystery of faith is that "God has died, God has risen, God will come again." Based on that we know that faith is, just that "a belief in that which we can not tangibly deal with". I pity anyone who believes that they are the end all of existence and that there is nothing greater than themselves. If for no other reason but that it must make for a miserable and lonely existence to be taking on life all alone and to know that this is as good as it gets. Besides how self absorbed must someone be to think that there is nothing greater or more powerful than themselves. Anyhow... Great Article
February 15, 2008 at 3:03 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Hadleyburg_Press (anonymous) says...
I've got a lot of wicca furniture. Great for kicking back in and drinking killer banana daquiris while sun worshipping....
February 15, 2008 at 3:04 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Token (anonymous) says...
LOL
February 15, 2008 at 4:10 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bandmama (anonymous) says...
I am not even going to touch this one....but I do want to make a point...
id- How dare you insult our teachers as you did on your 2/13/08 9:16 post??????? You should be so ahamed of your self! Education is an honorable profession and those that are willing to do so on a sh*tH*ole salery and continue for years deserve praise, what exactly is your degree in, besides oral anal leakage?
I wont argue religion, Hunterdog and his 10th grade son seem to being to a fine job of enlightening others to possibilities. but please stop insulting those fine folks who teach our kids. I sure in Hell (if per above arguements, it exists) wouldn't want most of you to explain the history of the world to my child..
BTW....Hadley...I like the wicca furniture and daquiris theory....goes back to the ape thing, right?
February 15, 2008 at 4:36 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
kielbasa (Matthew Stoddard) says...
Apes? Only if it's a Banana Daquiri! And all the hair fits thru the wicca furniture perfectly, but can get caught every once in a while.
February 15, 2008 at 4:38 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bandmama (anonymous) says...
Ouch..........
February 15, 2008 at 5:32 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Hadleyburg_Press (anonymous) says...
"Cornelius: [reading from the sacred scrolls of the apes] Beware the beast Man, for he is the Devil's pawn. Alone among God's primates, he kills for sport or lust or greed. Yea, he will murder his brother to possess his brother's land. Let him not breed in great numbers, for he will make a desert of his home and yours. Shun him; drive him back into his jungle lair, for he is the harbinger of death."
"George Taylor: A planet where apes evolved from men? There's got to be an answer."
"George Taylor: I'm a seeker too. But my dreams aren't like yours. I can't help thinking that somewhere in the universe there has to be something better than man. Has to be..."
"Dr. Zaius: You are right, I have always known about man. From the evidence, I believe his wisdom must walk hand and hand with his idiocy. His emotions must rule his brain. He must be a warlike creature who gives battle to everything around him, even himself."
-Planet of the Apes 1968-
February 15, 2008 at 5:52 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jester1cp (anonymous) says...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgTdN6...
February 16, 2008 at 11:19 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jester1cp (anonymous) says...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6G1bL...
February 16, 2008 at 6:45 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
id04sp (anonymous) says...
Bandmama,
Bachelors in Engineering, Masters in applied math.
I think that people of my generation are all pretty much aware that the dumbing down of the school systems during the 60s and 70s so that "disadvantaged" students could compete has thrown the United States back about 50 years in our ability to compete on a global basis. Even the SATs had to be radically changed to compensate for the erosion.
When your 9th grade science teacher has to sound out the word "retina" as he reads it from the textbook, things are pretty sad. And that was BEFORE things went completely to pot.
February 16, 2008 at 7:28 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
id04sp (anonymous) says...
"Soylent Green is people."
February 17, 2008 at 10:31 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
oneski (anonymous) says...
Having scanned these posts, I am proud to be an Atheist.
February 17, 2008 at 11:20 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
424now (anonymous) says...
Faith is Faith
Lack there of is lack there of.
Live and let live and get back to the more important threads.
February 19, 2008 at 2:32 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
outsiderlookingin (anonymous) says...
Id And Sbvor you could have saved a bunch of typing by suggesting that people read "Guns Germs and Steel' and that would explain alot about who and why certain things evolved the way they did.
Oneski--- see you in that smokey hallway and see if your still an atheist.!!!!
February 20, 2008 at 2:47 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
oneski (anonymous) says...
Outsider You sound just like all the other brain-washed lemmings
February 20, 2008 at 6:47 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
michyah (anonymous) says...
colorado123
Good chance they will pray for you first.
February 20, 2008 at 7:54 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seven (anonymous) says...
colorado123
This is a learning zone about all religions even the ones no one wishes to talk about much. Glad for input would like to hear more.
February 21, 2008 at 11:11 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
techno_babble (anonymous) says...
And hunter dog,...
LiIke most rodents, they taste much better after
being battered and fried. Preferable with a Tempura
batter.
February 25, 2008 at 8:09 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
techno_babble (anonymous) says...
Enough with the poor lemmings already!!
They really don't commit mass suicide.
They just have a strong urge to merge.
"While many people believe that lemmings commit mass suicide when they migrate, this is not the case. Driven by strong biological urges, they will migrate in large groups when population density becomes too great. Lemmings can and do swim and may choose to cross a body of water in search of a new habitat"
Hmmm, that reminds me of a few other threads here....
February 25, 2008 at 8:05 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
michyah (anonymous) says...
liberal lemming dog hunterdog
Why are the postings that smell of lemming liberal news also your views? Why do you follow instead of lead? Those lemmings like the real lemming rodents that follow one after the other directly off a cliff or into the sea seem to be able to easily mislead hunterdog. Better think for yourself my friend, the others are laughing at those so readily in position to follow. Deep study and confirmation of the truth instead of copying their thoughts may be a path to look at. Best Wishes.
February 24, 2008 at 8:52 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
michyah (anonymous) says...
lemmingdog
Remember we also study the stagies of liberals. This includes the always present and repeated phrase of "calling anything that seems religious ignorant/illiterate". Non-liberals are quite interested in any information because it is so easy to refer most anything directly back to the Bible. Must say I truly care just as much for all the liberals as anyone else. As for simple writings notice people will read comments if they assume the writer is less educated than they are. But gloss over what maybe presumed an educated fools writings. Remember this is exactly in the Bible.
Friend be open minded read all information available. Appearance of a callused heart would at this junction descibe hunterdog. Very sorry someone has broke the updated continued learning cycle to cause closed mindedness.Break the cycle and imagine having directives of knowledge not influenced by the crowd. Knowledge truly ends fear .
February 25, 2008 at 9:18 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
michyah (anonymous) says...
hunterdog
More than once before excepting Jesus Gods Son into my life tried to understand what the Bible was saying. Confusion and despair. Stumbled blindly.
After the choice to freely except Him MUCH understanding flowed. No, overflowed.
Before reading scripture hunterdog pray for wisdom.
Personally I prefer reversing to Hebrew and going back centuries. Artifacts in Jerusalem keep surfacing and it will not be possible to comprehend without knowing all the Jewish traditions back in time. Leaving no stone unturned and absorbing knowledge gained from all sources and especially my liberal friends[normally a good challenge,but must be honest hunterdog seems more of a follower] from even the far west.
Everyday amazed at how someone like me is not perfect but absolutely forgiven.
With one hand up we grab His Hand with the other hand out we are suppose to help others . But it does not happen sometimes. Much apologies we are so full our cup runneth over. When His spirit comes over one. Well cannot even put words to it. Maybe someone else has the message for hunterdog to visualize better. Holy,Holy,Holy. Bless His Precious name . To God be all the glory and nothing of me.
Summary
From my experience NO COMMITMENT NO KNOWLEDGE
Only hunterdog can choose to have God remove the cloak of darkness blocking knowledge. None of us can do it for you. Much prayer sent your way hunterdog. Ever wonder why your eyes keep being focused on this site? The annointing of Gods Holy spirit calls to those reading. It is nothing of the writer. The writer only prays for what simple words are suppose to reach those who visit for a some kind- not sure what kind of a message. He accepts anyone at anytime period. The confirmation for hunterdog and "proof" you seek will be seen and felt in never being able to forget these words and some nights you may even wake up remembering that quite surely He actually cares and seems to really be the only one who does in hunterdogs circle of friends.
February 25, 2008 at 1:39 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
techno_babble (anonymous) says...
Wow, michya, am I to understand you read the original Hebrew version? Having English as a second language might explain some of your language issues in the posts.
God Bless.
February 25, 2008 at 3:48 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
michyah (anonymous) says...
babble
Good to see a few recognize michyah is a Hebrew word.
February 25, 2008 at 4:10 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
emmalee (anonymous) says...
God/ No God: Bible/ No Bible: Creation vs. Evolution....
Quick question for thought; Anybody ever found or dug up the remains of a fish/human/cat/bird??????? Hmmmmmmmm
February 25, 2008 at 5:22 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
michyah (anonymous) says...
hunterdog
If for some reason His words did not penetrate, sorry my friend please walk away the words were for some one who reads the site but never comments. We all get to choose our destiny. Loudly you have chosen the way for hunterdog. The Bible promised this but its still heart breaking to see a very few refuse Him .Would prefer all to at least get a sample of the Glory...... Just thankful someone helped me else I could have been you.
Answers:
Old testament was before Jesus came. In the New Testament he changed around some laws etc. to clarify.
Slavery
Words in those days do not have the same meaning as today. Master then would be director/boss today.
Slave back then would be worker/team player today.
Today we use master/slave as terms to explain a master and slave cylinders.The master cylinder on the firewall actuates the secondary/slave cylinder to engage the clutch. Basically means part 1of 2.
Glad to answer these but do not expect to understand the Biblical answers without divine[nothing in me-talking about Gods intervention] guidance. Thats why hunterdog circles the camp but cannot force his way over to eat the lambs. The Shepard always keeps watch over his sheep day and night.
February 25, 2008 at 5:48 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
suckerfreeforlife (anonymous) says...
Hunterdog
Valiant effort, but its futile.
Do you think you could get some jihadi kook to reject the quran? Its a total waste of time.
It brings to mind the old adage, "Don't confuse me with the facts, my mind's made up."
Think of all the fruitcake ideas that have traction. Its embarrassing. Indigo children? Scientology? The book of Mormon? Its all total insanity. Yet people swear by it.
Think about this discourse, its an online forum. Any goofball freakshow can pipe up, and they do. You're probably arguing with one of Steamboats many narcissists, know-it-all prophets trying to salve the pain of their own dysfunctional existence.
But, if you want to fight the good fight, know two things...
1) You're absolutely correct
2) You're not alone.
February 25, 2008 at 7:06 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
emmalee (anonymous) says...
Hunterdog/Don't think so, most archaeological finds reveal fairly clear cut species. I was just wondering while there are small changes, the general species tend to remain the same. A dino-dog is still some form of canine: if per say we ALL (all living organisms)evolved from the same gene pool as you say, wouldn't (without a perfect God) there be some screw ups along the way? Remember we would be leaving this process to chance without a God. Hence is there any evidence of the "cathippohumanfishdog" or any other combination thereof ever being found? What is there to misrepresent????
February 26, 2008 at 8:09 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Hadleyburg_Press (anonymous) says...
The Platypus (Ornithorhynchus anatinus)
February 26, 2008 at 10:59 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
egoeater (anonymous) says...
hunter dog
The Bible says the earth is round. Sounds empirical to me.
Big Bang theory needs tinkering. A large release of energy has never been shown to lead to anything organized. Yet a controlled release of energy can. Europe after WWII was evidence of large uncontrolled energy releases. No evidence it organized the land, cities or politics. The Marshal Plan after WWII is evidence of a controlled release of energy. Europe rose from the ashes land and cities restored. Hunterdog would have to bury his head in the sand to avoid the truth evident here in recent history. Why? A controlled release of energy requires an organizer, a Creator. That is the problem with evolution. It claims everything slowly over time got more complex and that defys common sense. No degrees required. That is why college professors that are athiest or agnostic struggle with the Bible. God and creation are a challenge to their false god of gnosis. Knowlege is good, but with all your getting get understanding.
February 27, 2008 at 7:03 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
colobob (anonymous) says...
to believe or not to believe in God is one's personal choice. As for me, I choose to believe!
While there are two sides to every coin my coin faces heads up, now and always.
February 26, 2008 at 4:33 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
424now (anonymous) says...
Little lemmings marching off to their doom. Over the cliff to fall hundreds of feet to their apperent doom to be drowned or battered to death be the sea..... waitaminute.....battered.. by.. the, battered?
Battered and fried?
LOL
February 26, 2008 at 5:03 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
techno_babble (anonymous) says...
Mmmmmmmmmmmm....
Battered rodent!
February 26, 2008 at 5:17 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
egoeater (anonymous) says...
hunterdog
The Bible does not say the earth is flat it says it is round. Isaiah40:22. Don't your read?
February 26, 2008 at 6:43 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
egoeater (anonymous) says...
Hunterdog
You misused Ephesians 6:5. That verse does not condone slavery. The Apostle Paul was writing to the church at Ephesus in the Roman Empire where slavery was condoned. Paul was addressing the facts as they were. Many gentile christians came out of the Roman pagan system. Some were slaves, some were scholars who worshipped knowledge or gnosis like yourself.
February 26, 2008 at 6:55 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
egoeater (anonymous) says...
Hunterdog
You should read all of Matthew 10. Jesus was not condoning slavery here. He was using it as a literary device to get His point across. You should handle God's word better. He does describe it as sharper than any two edged sword and you appear to be cutting yourself with it.
February 26, 2008 at 7:04 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
egoeater (anonymous) says...
Hunterdog
You should read all of Exodus 21. You loosely use the term slavery to try and bring all of historical world slavery against the Bible, but you failed to read the part in Exodus 21:2 "If thou buy a Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing". Hunterdog this narrows slavery down to just Hebrew people not the entire world and how the world abused slaves as you imply. You should read the Bible carefully.
February 26, 2008 at 7:14 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
egoeater (anonymous) says...
Hunterdog
You should read Deuteronomy 15:12-15
Look at how the Jewish people were commanded to treat servants that were let free in the seventh year. "And when thou sendest him out free from thee, thou shalt not let him go away empty: Thou shalt furnish him liberally out of thy flock, and out of thy floor(most likely threshing floor grain), and out of thy winepress (notice how He commanded them to give fresh food right out of the wine press or flock not last years reserves): of that wherewith the Lord thy God hath blessed thee thou shalt give unto him." Basically the former slave went away with a share of the bounty he helped his master acquire during his enslavement. The master was to bless his exservant as he was blessed by God. In Deuteronomy 15:15 God reminds Hebrew slave owners that they were once slaves too in Egypt. The pagan Egyptians treated slaves quite differently than the Hebrew people did.
February 26, 2008 at 7:31 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
colobob (anonymous) says...
if I am a lemming marching off to the sea because I believe in God then so be it, I'll be a lemming, fried, grilled, or devoured raw.
God Bless all, even those that have choosen not to believe.
"the meek shall inherit the earth"
The wealthy shall inherit Steamboat!
February 27, 2008 at 8:45 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
osiyo (anonymous) says...
If what you believe is not true, would you want to know the truth? Really?
February 27, 2008 at 2:08 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
egoeater (anonymous) says...
Hunterdog,
Circle:
3: something in the form of a circle or section of a circle: as a: DIADEM b: an instrument of astronomical observation the graduated limb of which consists of an entire circle c: a balcony or tier of seats in a theater d: a circle formed on the surface of a sphere by the intersection of a plane that passes through it e: ROTARY 2 4: an area of action or influence : REALM (Merriam Websters online dictionary)
Imagine if you could look down on earth like the astronauts did from the moon, which is like what God describes when he likens people as the size of grasshoppers. Basically He is describing His point of view. From this view the earth does look like a circle we can only see one hemisphere which corresponds to definition D above. I also noted definition 4. The earth is His realm and compared to Him we are like grasshoppers.
Proverbs 8:27 "drew a circle"
The NSRV uses the words drew a circle while the KJV says "set a compass" and footnotes it to "drew a circle" both describe an action and what do you draw a circle with? A compass.
Compass (Merriam Websters online)
1: to devise or contrive often with craft or skill : PLOT 2: ENCOMPASS3 a: BRING ABOUT, ACHIEVE b: to get into one's possession or power : OBTAIN4: COMPREHEND
So this agrees with God creating the earth or should I say "devise or contrive often with craft or skill"
February 27, 2008 at 11:10 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
egoeater (anonymous) says...
Hunterdog
Main Entry: straw man
Function: noun
Date: 1886
1 : a weak or imaginary opposition (as an argument or adversary) set up only to be easily confuted 2 : a person set up to serve as a cover for a usually questionable transaction
Hunterdog I think you lack imagination. I'm not the one who cuts and pastes from "talk origins" for ninety percent of my discussion per previous posts. You seem to be very upset about the big bang theory. WHERE is your "empirical" evidence that the large uncontrolled release of energy like the big bang led to matter in the universe organizing into stars, constellations, solar systems and other heavenly structures. Common sense. Here I'll show you in a lab. I'll take your pocket watch and set it in the petri dish. Then I pull out my five pound sledge and smash it. Wow ohh ahhh! The watch is quite a bit more dis-organized not more organized. Oh I'm sorry the watch is too complex for you. Let's see. We'll take a rock and drill a hole in it and pack it full of stick dynamite. Bang! Big Bang! Wow look at all the little rocks scattered around and dust and smoke. Every one knows those rocks are not going to get back together again. If this is a strawman argument why have you not "easily confuted it". Or is this strawman to tuff for dah wee wittle dog who huffs and puffs (oops to close to home hunter?) and can't blow this straw house down? (THEY DON'T "ST5RUGGLE" WITH IT...THEY , FOR THE MOST PART, SEE IT AS A SOCIOLOGICAL DOCUMENT, NOTHING MORE. CERTAINLY NOT THE INFALLIBLE WORD OF "god"
Should I go get the definition of narrow minded Hunterdog?
Your Daniel 4:10-11 argument is poorly interpretted. Center of the earth. Not the core of the earth as in location, but the center of the room, in the midst of the room. The tree reached to heaven. "to" does not have to mean all the way up into heaven it means towards that direction and in this context of the dream that Nebuchadnezzar had it is implying that the tree was the tallest in all the earth, but what you really missed is this is a dream. The tree is symbolic of king Nebuchadnezzar. "end of the whole earth" does not imply a flat earth circle or square. In the Strongs concordance "earth" in hebrew can be defined as the whole earth or a portion of land or country or nation. Basically the king was the most powerful man in all of his known realm. Webster's agrees on this too.
February 27, 2008 at 11:15 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
egoeater (anonymous) says...
For you Hunter you are fueling your unbelief towards the Bible by attacking it with knowledge from athiest websites, agnostic websites. Stop Hunter. I mean it STOP. Think. You have taken on the spirit of those websites. Lay them aside for awhile. Use your own head unbiased by evolutionists and christians- yes even christians. God delights in those who seek after Him. Even Paul was proud of the Bereans who never took him at his word, they listened and then researched for themselves to see if he was right or wrong. God loves when we pursue Him. I took up the Bible and the first thing I looked for was Easter, Christmas, Lent and I was shocked. What! The Bible doesn't have the "christian" holidays I thought. I didn't give up. I wanted to KNOW why they were not in there. It turns out those holidays are pagan holidays mixed with christian words to appear christian. The real holidays of God or festivals are Passover, Pentecost, Tabernacles. Now I UNDERSTAND why they did it. Some people thought they could win converts by incorporating aspects of the local theology into the church theology. Unfortunately it got away from them and was made into doctrine that was false. The road to ruin is paved with good intentions. I don't want you to believe because I said so. I don't want you to not believe because they (talk origins etc.) said so. Believe because YOU know so(not them or me). Consider the views of as many anti-God websites as you can find, I have. Consider as many pro-God websites as you can find. Listen, compare, dive in, But don't do it with hate and vengence. They can blind a person. I've been there.
February 27, 2008 at 11:20 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
egoeater (anonymous) says...
The prophet Jeremiah wrote "Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord." Jeremiah 17:5 People will betray you, steal from you, lie to you, manipulate you for their own personal gain. Watch people closely. You will know them by their fruit and fruit takes a while to ripen. Trust in the Lord He will never leave you or forsake you.
February 27, 2008 at 11:38 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
katrinkakelly (anonymous) says...
WOW! Tremendous amount of posts here. No comment on Isreal but-
Only one man split time in our history. Like it or not.
The book of Kings, in the Bible, has a mathematical probability rating of 10 to the tenth power!
I bet if your plane was going down you would probably scream JESUS!....................................................
February 28, 2008 at 8:50 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Hadleyburg_Press (anonymous) says...
egoeater,
doubt is what sets men afoot to explore both externally and internally.
You are welcome to pray for me and I shall shall pity you. I shall pity you the same way that I would pity the existance of a happy drunk.
I'm sorry, but I find it difficult to converse with you anymore. It reminds me of pulling the wings off of a fly as a child. It is momentarily entertaining, but then one realizes that it is cruel and unneccesary.
February 29, 2008 at 6:54 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
osiyo (anonymous) says...
Hunterdog - if what you believe is not true, would you want to know the truth? simple question, simple yes or no answer.
February 28, 2008 at 11 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
osiyo (anonymous) says...
One may want to first read verses 1-7. It talks about Love. Without Love...our actions, our words, our predictions & prophesies, our knowledge, our speech will all be meaningless. Verse 8 was not a prediction.
February 28, 2008 at 12:27 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Hadleyburg_Press (anonymous) says...
Having just returned from Utah I am confused as to which remnant of the House of Israel I should be praying for? How about the Lamanites which are supposedly residing in the four corners region? I can't seem to figure out which book is true. Egoeater, you seem to talk to god frequently, so could you ask which version of "his" book is correct? and then be so kind as to have him explain why. I really love the desert so I hope he picks Edward Abby's - Desert Solitaire - unless that doesn't qualify as a religiously pious text in his eyes...
February 28, 2008 at 1:02 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Hadleyburg_Press (anonymous) says...
If posts were inches of snow, would today be a powder day?
February 28, 2008 at 1:34 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
techno_babble (anonymous) says...
Dog, I'm gonna call you on that LOL
See this for information about accuracy
http://nomorelol.com/
LOI
February 28, 2008 at 5:38 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
QuitYerWhining (anonymous) says...
Hadley
That definitely will not qualify. He shoots the stupid snake and doesn't question why God sent it to him the first place.
February 28, 2008 at 5:47 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ColoradoNative (anonymous) says...
Meanwhile..............
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080228/a...
February 28, 2008 at 6:39 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Hadleyburg_Press (anonymous) says...
"People are trapped in history and history is trapped in people"
No one should have to die in conflict, especially children.
February 28, 2008 at 6:50 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Hadleyburg_Press (anonymous) says...
Suggested reading:
"The Painted Bird" - Jerzy Kosinski - 1968
February 28, 2008 at 7:16 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
egoeater (anonymous) says...
Hunterdog
Sorry to upset you so bad this morning. Seriously I see there is a bigger issue at play here. In several previous posts of yours you talk about what you call God's infatuation with people's private parts. This mornings post of yours begs the question; Were you abused, even sexually abused in your fundamentalist christian childhood? If so I see the pain and understand your hatred towards anything of God. I know God does not condone this.
February 28, 2008 at 7:20 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Hadleyburg_Press (anonymous) says...
We ARE drifting into a South Park episode!
February 28, 2008 at 8:21 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
egoeater (anonymous) says...
Hadley
Never heard of Edward Abby. You appear to be mormon. As for "which book"? Genesis through Revelation. This set of books the Roman Catholics set up as the canon, but I have learned enough about the Roman Catholic history to not stop there and or trust them. The Bible does mention Jasher. From what I've read so far it seems right. I've read some of the Book of Thomas and my gut feeling was something was amiss so I don't trust it. I'm always on the look out for more info. It seems though Hadley that you are leaning towards a finding for a particular denomination on my part. I don't have one. I claim no denomination. Few churches are free from traditions of men. Many churches are social clubs. People only go to see other people, not God. They have social hierarchies. Soft tickly speeches to tickle your ears and make you feel just right with where you are. Some churches are really just a local branch of a larger corporation and take their marching orders from headquarters thousands of miles away. They require canned sermons. The Holy Ghost is not there. My church? He says that if two or more of you are gathered together in my name there I am with you. A good real Holy Ghost filled church is rare and highly prized by me. If people say they have such a church great, but in your heart wait and look for the fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.
February 28, 2008 at 8:22 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Hadleyburg_Press (anonymous) says...
My dear egoeater,
The only thing that I believe in is doubt.
February 28, 2008 at 8:55 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Hadleyburg_Press (anonymous) says...
and a treed bear is bad for the fruit...
February 28, 2008 at 8:59 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
egoeater (anonymous) says...
Katrinkakelly is right.
God bless Israel.
God bless the descendants of Abraham, Issac and Jacob.
Everyone who sets their hand to destroy Israel, Jerusalem and the Jewish people will be destroyed.
God is upset no doubt with the world today, soon the day is coming when He calls for the wheat harvest to come in, afterwards He is going to take the world through the twilight zone.
February 28, 2008 at 9:05 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
egoeater (anonymous) says...
Hadley,
Merriam Webster
Main Entry:doubt
Function:noun
Date: 13th century
1 a: uncertainty of belief or opinion that often interferes with decision-making.
Sounds like a personal problem Hadley I'll pray that you figure it out.
February 28, 2008 at 9:18 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ColoradoNative (anonymous) says...
I say God bless powder days...What are you yapping about ego?
February 28, 2008 at 10:32 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
QuitYerWhining (anonymous) says...
HunterDog
See that's the problem... you don't play by the "rules" of fundamentalist Christianity (what ever that actually is). See you have to think in absolutes. Either you love God or you hate him. You either believe or you don't. The Bible is either true or it isn't. Im sure you know Dog but for the benefit of others, the Bible is actually more meaningful if you read it for all of its' metaphorical meanings and it actually makes it more pertinent if you do. However doing so does rear the ugly axiom head of the absolutist approach of "if you question faith, you have no faith". Its not a matter of questioning faith but exploring its' true meaning rather than as the great Joseph Campbell said "Getting stuck in the metaphor" Campbell said that if we look at all religions from a metaphorical stand point we would see that the basis for all religions is the same. Instead of taking the literal translation of the "words" of a religious document figure out what they "mean". Once people figure this out they will realize that the religious institutions of the world have been manipulating these religious doctrines since their inception through various interpretaions to keep the poor from eating the rich and to justify unspeakable human atrocities, wars and greed
February 29, 2008 at 9:04 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
QuitYerWhining (anonymous) says...
Suggested reading: "Hero with a Thousand Faces" Joseph Campbell
"...mighty God is the living man. You can fool some people sometimes but you can't fool all the people all the time... so now you see the light...stand up for your rights"- Bob Marley
February 29, 2008 at 9:13 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Hadleyburg_Press (anonymous) says...
egoeater,
Fearing knowledge is no way to go through life. Again, you have my pity.
Beelzeburg
March 1, 2008 at 7:15 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
colobob (anonymous) says...
Bob Marley? It's no doubt that Marley is high enough to reach the heavens. The problem is that if he were to open his eyes while there and see where he actually was he would most likely bleed to death "Mon." I and I Believe!
March 1, 2008 at 9:56 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
QuitYerWhining (anonymous) says...
Ooo OOo can I have a go Hunter?....
Biblical Interpretation #1
When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. Then Joseph her husband, being a just [man], and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily. But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins -Matthew 1:18-25
Essentially before Joseph and Mary did the deed she found out she was pregnant and swore up and down that she had no idea how. To keep from being public humiliated Joseph kept his fiances infidelity to himself and had an epiphany and decide to keep the child as a miracle child. This powerful stuff because Jesus is essentially an illegitimate child whose "call to adventure" is to save all of the illegitimate children of God from the injustices of the "self proclaimed righteous" and save us from our sins:like infidelity.
February 29, 2008 at 11:47 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
osiyo (anonymous) says...
Re: Biblical absurdity#10......You forgot to mention that Noah was in the ark for 53 weeks countering your extinction theory. He took of every clean animal and beast (not killing each and every offspring produced during the time on the ark) and offered a sacrifice to the Lord. The Lord smelled the soothing aroma, symbolic of a smell of satisfaction. Genesis 6:5 "Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts on man's heart was continually evil."
February 29, 2008 at 4:01 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
QuitYerWhining (anonymous) says...
oisyo wrote:
"Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts on man's heart was continually evil."
So explain this one to me.... if Christians do not necessarily believe in "free will" ie God has a predestined plan for all of us... they why when he "created" us did he make us inherently evil? Amusement? Orrrrr... maybe that's what theologians tell us to keep the "enlightened" in their place. Repent and accept your lowly role on earth as part of your penitence and ye shall be received in heaven and it will have all been worth your misery on earth.
":if you know what life is really worth you will look for yours [heaven] on earth.."- Bob Marley
February 29, 2008 at 4:27 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
egoeater (anonymous) says...
Quiter
God did not create us inherently evil. We made a choice.
February 29, 2008 at 11:54 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
egoeater (anonymous) says...
H-dog
Sorry you don't know what praying really is.
February 29, 2008 at 11:58 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
egoeater (anonymous) says...
Dunderdog
I knew you couldn't read but now you tell me you can't add. Of every clean beast Noah took on by sevens. I thought you said you read the Bible more than any of us. Does reading for comprehension mean anything to you? oh yeah Genesis 7:2
March 1, 2008 at 12:05 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
egoeater (anonymous) says...
Hadley-dog or is it Hunterburg-Press
Your bi-polar half slipped up. The only prayer I mentioned was to Hadley.
March 1, 2008 at 12:14 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
egoeater (anonymous) says...
Hunter-Burg
The first seperation of darkness and light was the spiritual not heavenly bodies.
March 1, 2008 at 12:20 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
egoeater (anonymous) says...
Hunter-Burg
I thought you read the Bible more than us. Its Luke 11:24 not Mark 11:24
I'm glad you qouted this though. You and your father have much in common. You both like to twist scripture and skew it against God. You twist and set it up as a stumbling block to place in the front of others. You are not content to deny His existence but to also blind others who look for him and guide them into the ditch. You twisted it for Eve and you made them stumble as the so called "religious" did in the 1st century. You still mislead people with cunningly devised fables in these end times. You should have read all of Luke 11 and you would have seen that the Holy Spirit keeps the unclean spirits out when he indwells you. John 8:44 "you are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murder from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own: for he is a liar and the father of it."
When I hear you Hunter I also hear him that is in you.
March 1, 2008 at 12:53 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
osiyo (anonymous) says...
Reference Genesis 7:11 and Genesis 8:13-14 for the time Noah was in the ark.
March 1, 2008 at 11:14 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
osiyo (anonymous) says...
Genesis 8:13 begins with...Now it came about in the six hundred and first year, first month....
Genesis 8:14 begins with...And in the second month, twenty-seventh day of that month, the earth was dry.
A little over a year had passed.
March 1, 2008 at 3:32 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ColoradoNative (anonymous) says...
http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnew...
March 2, 2008 at 12:24 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nibbler (anonymous) says...
whoa whoa whoa
egoeater caught hunterdog in a flat lie. Major foul up on hunterdogs part about being prayed for. At least have the decency to admit it hunterdog. I respect people who admit they are wrong. I worry when they hide it and quickly change the subject. Hunterdogs responese remind me of someone who has shifty eyes. You know they are lying to you. This conversation about creation and evolution is amazing. I used to think christians had a poor arguement, but after watching how the evolution crowd has presented themselves I get sick. Especially hunterdog. The christians have argued diligently and directly and hunterdog never once said "you are right on that part" when caught in a flat lie. When wrong hunterdog quietly drops the line of questioning and loudly proclaims a new problem as if that could cover up his foolishness. I say the christians are winning this argument very well because they at least maintained good character, and I am surprised by their convincing arguments. Hunterdogs method of debating evolution casts a bad light on all those like him. I've seen this tendancy to attack like this before but never so bad. Watching hunterdog debate is like watching a kid drive square peg in a round hole. It just makes you shake your head and wonder are all athiests this dumb?
March 1, 2008 at 7:46 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jester1cp (anonymous) says...
I posted this in the Nerney forum.A suggestion to all the people on all these forum.Step outside breath some fresh air.I know cabin fever sux but get out from behind your computers and live life.
From earlier post people know my views on Israel.I dont have to keep flaming/ taking jabs at each other.I dont have to jusitfy my views.I know where you stand,you know where i stand.
March 1, 2008 at 8:05 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
suckerfreeforlife (anonymous) says...
Nibbler
I must respectfully disagree. Hunterdog is raising reasonable points regarding the veracity of the bible. His adversaries then claim the devil is in him, and he is the son of the devil. These are ignorant, childish, and fear-mongering remarks. It is laughably adolescent, and arrogant, to claim someone is working for the devil. Yet, you give these same people the "character" high ground? I strongly disagree.
There are MANY highly moral, and highly intelligent atheists. Too many to list, but a quick internet search will provide ample esteemed examples. Generally speaking, these people find ethical behavior its own reward. I find that connotes a more admirable character than behavior that is driven by the carrot and stick approach of religion.
March 1, 2008 at 10:52 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nibbler (anonymous) says...
-Hunterdog flatout lie #1-
In your posting of Feb 26 @ 6:51 you state "You see, Jesus never spoke out against slavery, he condoned it as well."
A few postings later egoeater called you on it and you never replied and actually loudly proclaimed a new atack line.
-Hunterdog flatout lie #2-
In the same posting you continue to rail about "biblical slavery" and once again egoeater called you on it citing several verses that outlined how slaves should be treated.
Hunterdog never responds and loudly carries on about "strawman" and "watch" arguments.
Hunterdog, maybe I'm wrong, but through all your postings I never see where you say "you're right" or "I was wrong on that, sorry" when you are clearly and directly shown to be wrong especially on how you qoute the Bible, you never respond. You just dig up something else to divert attention to a mistake or flaw. There is nothing to be ashamed of. I used to have that problem too. To always be right and never admit wrong when your wrong causes people to lose respect for you. Especially in a debate, if people see you lie or subvert on one thing they will wonder what else have you lied or tried to subvert them on.
Lastly
If christianity was "created by men to control men" then why did they create it to focus worship and devotion to God. If man had made it they would have directed devotion to man like most if not all the other religions in the world.
March 2, 2008 at 11:43 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ethan (anonymous) says...
"The greatest act of faith takes place when a man finally decides that he is not God."
Johann Wolfgang Goethe
March 3, 2008 at 9:02 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ethan (anonymous) says...
Hunterdog,
Thank you for the time and ideas you've offered regarding your perceptions on the credibility or lack thereof of the Bible. In my experience discussions such as this often compel people to conduct research for themselves that they wouldn't otherwise undertake. Given the vital importance of the topic, I believe a personal and thorough examination is a good thing - so thank you for keeping the discussion alive.
A little background on me, for what it's worth.
Perhaps like you now, at one time I had very skeptical and cynical ('intelllectual', I thought) views of religion, spirituality and Christianity in particular. However, after reaching many of my educational goals, embarking on a challenging and gratifying professional career, marrying the 'woman of my dreams' and then starting a family, I decided to confront head-on the issues I'd considered for years regarding religion. I started with Christianity, mainly because it seemed to be a sitting duck - it was intrusive and offensive, and, I believed, likely to be very easily debunked. My intention was to reveal the fraud that I was sure existed using my training and education in historical research, and then move on to analyzing other religions and moral/ethical belief systems. However, after nearly 6 months of research, I was in for a surprise. You see, I was also an attorney, trained to objectively analyze and identify strengths and weaknesses in conflicting arguments, and I came to this stunning realization: although neither side's argument was without serious flaws, the stronger argument was that Jesus Christ was who He (and the Bible) said He was and that He did indeed rise from the grave to save us from our sins. In fact, I ended up on my knees, tears in my eyes, begging for the forgiveness of a creator and savior that in my previous arrogance and misguided thinking believed did not even exist. In an amazing (yes, magical) turn of events, I'd gone from self-assured purveyor of 'facts' to convicted follower of Jesus Christ.
BTW - tying this back into your focus - this conclusion that I had reached led me to cease questioning those topics that you now seem fixated upon. For example, Jesus had incorporated the Old Testament in his teachings - and that is now good enough for me to believe by faith their veracity. In a sense, I've quit sweating and debating the molecular makeup of the dirt on the forest floor and am now enjoying the view of the valley from the mountain top.
March 3, 2008 at 10:29 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ethan (anonymous) says...
(con't)
I'm not illiterate, uneducated nor naive, yet I believe without hesitation or doubt that you are 100% wrong in many of your views on Christianity. Granted, I will be in the front row at the question and answer period that I very much hope will be a part of orientation on day 1 in heaven - because so much doesn't make sense to me. Nevertheless, I believe without reservation. ('Delusional', is probably your critical and arrogant judgment; 'blessed with the gift of faith' is my perception.) And, as a tremendous bonus to my understanding and beliefs, I now seem to posses (most of the time, at least) the 'peace that surpasses all understanding' that comes with faith. Let me tell you, it alone is worth the pursuit of Christ.
My suggestion to all those who have read this thread and have any doubts whatsoever about what they should believe, is this:
Do your own research. A good place to start may be the foundation upon which Christianity is built i.e. validity of the hisorical evidence of the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Please go about your research with an open-mind, and not intending to find evidence to support whatever you already believe - because that is what you'll find. Follow the evidence wherever it may lead you. I'd also suggest try to stay clear of whatever sites, books authors etc to which any extremists (e.g. hunterdog) may direct you.
If you conclude the resurrection did not happen, so be it. You can join hunterdog in his curious choice to attack and mock those of us who have reached different conclusions, or you can agree to disagree and move on in your search for meaning and truth. On the other hand, if you conclude as I have, that the preponderance of the evidence supports the likelihood that Jesus did indeed rise from the dead, just as the Bible says He did, rejoice.... and you then may want to read the Book of John - it's a good overview of Christianity. Based upon my personal experience, your life will forever be changed for the better, and the 'joy that surpasses all understanding' will be yours.
March 3, 2008 at 10:32 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ethan (anonymous) says...
(con't)
One last thought, Hunterdog: You're obviously amazingly intelligent and very self-confident, so I imagine you've allowed yourself to do some worst-case analysis regrading your beliefs and hypotheses. If so, have you considered this question:
'What if I'm wrong?'
What if the Bible is the word of God the creator and Jesus Christ was the son of God and did die on a cross for our sins and arose from the dead and the only way to eternal life is through belief and faith in him?
On my side, if I'm right in my faith - well there's life eternal in a very real place filled with love and loving people, worship, hanging with God and of course very real, beautiful scenery (and yes, I do believe I'll be skiing). But if I'm wrong - what have I lost? I've tried to emulate Jesus and that has led to my being more loving, compassionate, productive and oriented toward helping others in any way that I can. My children look up to me, peers seem to respect me and best of all, I walk around feeling peace despite chaotic and horrendous circumstances - all due to what I've believed is the love of Jesus. If it turns out I was wrong and fell for the greatest hoax of all time, I'm ok with this 'price' I've paid.
Now, Hunterdog, back to you. if your ego's allowed you to consider the unthinkable - what if you
are wrong.?
Ouch.
March 3, 2008 at 10:35 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
oldskoolstmbt (anonymous) says...
'if, if's and but's were candy and nuts, we'd all have a better christmas'
hunterdog-being a "recovering cathholic"(me) ...i love ya man!your comments are right on, thanks!:)
March 5, 2008 at 11:12 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
oldskoolstmbt (anonymous) says...
hunter- i wonder if seven, ethan, faith,ego, mic, etc..believe in santa, the easter bunny and the tooth fairy as well..you see, i have this REALLY old book that says so!:) ur feb.8 at 9:53 blog...wow,i never laughed so hard!and now i know many think i will go to h*!! for saying such a thing, however, to my advantage, i don't live my life according to the unknown question of "what happens when we die"...this whole blog thing has become quite entertaining..just a little bone i thought i'd throw ya!
March 5, 2008 at 3:33 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
drumski (anonymous) says...
Hunter,
It's a shame that you don't open up to organized religion......Sunday morning services are unbelievably entertaining......hysterical in fact. I recommend it to everyone when the football season is over.
March 5, 2008 at 8:39 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
oneski (anonymous) says...
let them bomb each other of the face of the earth---problem solved
March 6, 2008 at 7:28 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
emmalee (anonymous) says...
Hunterdog- Really enjoying your knowledge of the Bible, curious however if you do not believe in God (or a "gawd"). How you have come to be, in my opinion such a fabulous philosopher in this area. Your knowledge of the Bible and it's contents (although I don't necessarily agree w/ your views) is awe inspiring. I have met many devout Christians that are unable to quote verbatim or even find specific scriptures for a cause yet you can. At first I thought that you were sitting around referencing direct quotes to make a point however (and you may be) you appear to be someone who has spent many hours looking for answers (apparently not yet found) to have obtained this ornate array of Biblical knowledge. What drives you to do this when you claim this text is all false??? Please don't say to prove we are all wrong I feel as if to do so demeans both of us. (You appear to be much more of a deep thinker than to spit out an answer such as that). One more thing I will say your earthworm to ponder question was a hoot and even as a Christian something to ponder Lol.
March 6, 2008 at 12:02 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
colobob (anonymous) says...
No quotes, no rebuttal, just my declaration of my belief in God, now and for eternity.
Have a good day everyone!
March 6, 2008 at 1:20 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
emmalee (anonymous) says...
Hunter; For lack of time, (need to be somewhere) are there not holes in both theories? are the scientists not as narrow minded as some believers. Depending on the virtues of those who raised you and circumstances that I gather you could not control as a child it appears to me that you have and almost angry (sorry don't mean to be harsh) view for both sides and that saddens me. Even as you profess to be a non-believer I sense that you crave answers. Regardless of which side they rise from.
March 6, 2008 at 1:24 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
emmalee (anonymous) says...
Dog-we are to assume you are human as the rest of us. Since when is taking a human approach strictly just an appeal on ones emotions. While humans I agree don't always make clearly drawn lines where their emotions and their brains conflict. As humans that line might find its shady area even in the "logical" as the old quote goes "to error is human". Plainly because of our fallibility we (you,I or anyone) can't decide in all absolute the truth what someone else might find elusive and another consoling. That is the beauty of faith it is the peace of believing in what steers you.
For some it is Biblically based, for others it could be in many "gods" or in auras etc. etc.. What I find perplexing is that as humans we naturally have a need to obtain answers to the unknown yet some of us don't realize that the answers we rely on are only as good as the imperfect beings that we are.
This concept is applicable for science and the faith community.
DO we really know???? We must choose to believe in what "jives" with us. So while you may choose evolution, I may choose creation or something entirely different. I really wouldn't tell you that you are wrong (I think you insinuated Christians were kooks) I don't think you can in all honestly call me totally incorrect either. So my question to you earlier was based on emotional appeal perhaps but that usually is what drives us as the humans we are. Why do you seem so interested in our faith beliefs yet turn your back on all you explained was the foundation of your youth? Maybe the failure was not in Christ but in the message you received, it did come from humans who are not always right and are not only emotionally driven but often self serving. Look into your heart and realize that not everything in life has an answer and sometimes we don't like the one we get. Maybe you just have never found a presentation of our Lord that suits you.
March 6, 2008 at 11:07 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
emmalee (anonymous) says...
Dog- One more thought, Who we are in our hearts and how we choose to believe (or not to)is based largely on our perception of the world around us. To a 300lb woman who loses 150lbs and becomes a size 14 she may feel indescribably beautiful and the world to her is alive but to a woman who was always 125lbs and gains 25lbs more after the birth of a baby and becomes that size 14 even with all of the beauty of a new baby she is so depressed she hates herself and everything around her. Both woman weigh 150 both are a size 14. These woman view their surroundings differently. Is one right or wrong????
March 6, 2008 at 11:28 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
emmalee (anonymous) says...
Hunterdog/ DUDE........um ....like ....I um ... expected a much more educated response than a quote of a dead rocker. But oh well.....soooooooooo disappointed Lol ; Not that I have a problem w/Zappa but hardly a life module that I would care to emulate. But far be it for me to stop you. I can already sense a dead theologians joke around the corner.
March 10, 2008 at 9:59 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
egoeater (anonymous) says...
hunterdog
better study history of zappa and what happened at his death. he was a zero. hunterdogs wit? zero.
John Hagee and Pat Robertson annointed men of God. Step out to stomp Gods annointed? Better read what will follow. Just ask zappa.
March 10, 2008 at 2:25 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Hadleyburg_Press (anonymous) says...
Frank Zappa was perhaps the greatest musical genius of our time. History, long into the future, may reflect upon him as our times provocative Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart.
Personal favorite:
-Listening to "Catholic Girls" while lounging in wicca furniture, worshipping the sun, drinking killer banana DaiquirÃ, and being greatful that I don't reside in that man forsaken place called the Middle East...
March 10, 2008 at 5:39 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
suckerfreeforlife (anonymous) says...
Zappa was a zero?
Is that because he was a Grammy award winning musician? Or is it because he was inducted in to the rock and roll hall of fame? No? It must be because the city of Baltimore has named a day after him. No? Is it because Rolling Stone included him in the 100 greatest artists of all time? How about the fact that he was a prolific composer of Jazz and Classical music arrangements? Any of these right? No? Must be because he was invited by Vaclav Havel to be a consultant to the Czech government. Only a real zero would get an offer like that! Wait wait, ive got it, is it because, politically, he refered to himself as a practical conservative? No? damn, i was sure that was it.
Wait, im sorry...its because he died of cancer. Thats it. And if ive got your "logic" correct, people who die of cancer are being smited by the all mighty smighter. Damn, instead of all the yellow Livestrong bracelets, we should just wear ones that say "Die, Sinner"
March 10, 2008 at 6:28 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nibbler (anonymous) says...
Hunterdog(aka hadley) suckerforlife
Looks like birds of a feather flock together,
Frank Zappa
DUMB ALL OVER
Whoever we are
Wherever we're from
We shoulda noticed by now
Our behavior is dumb
And if our chances
Expect to improve
It's gonna take a lot more
Than tryin' to remove
The other race
Or the other whatever
From the face
Of the planet altogether
They call it the earth
Which is a dumb kinda name
But they named it right
'cause we behave the same...
We are dumb all over
Dumb all over,
Yes we are
Dumb all over,
Near 'n far
Dumb all over,
Black 'n white
People, we is not wrapped tight
Nerds on the left
Nerds on the right
Religious fanatics
On the air every night
Sayin' the bible
Tells the story
Makes the details
Sound real gory
'bout what to do
If the geeks over there
Don't believe in the book
We got over here
You can't run a race
Without no feet
'n pretty soon
There won't be no street
For dummies to jog on
Or doggies to dog on
Religious fanatics
Can make it be all gone
(I mean it won't blow up
?n disappear
It'll just look ugly
For a thousand years...)
You can't run a country
By a book of religion
Not by a heap
Or a lump or a smidgeon
Of foolish rules
Of ancient date
Designed to make
You all feel great
While you fold, spindle
And mutilate
Those unbelievers
From a neighboring state
March 10, 2008 at 9:19 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nibbler (anonymous) says...
Continued: From Frank Zappa
To arms! to arms!
Hooray! that's great
Two legs ain't bad
Unless there's a crate
They ship the parts
To mama in
For souvenirs: two ears (get down!)
Not his, not hers, (but what the hey? )
The good book says:
("it gotta be that way!")
But their book says:
"revenge the crusades...
With whips 'n chains
'n hand grenades..."
Two arms' two arms?
Have another and another
Our God says:
"there ain't no other!"
Our God says
"it's all okay!"
Our God says
"this is the way!"
It says in the book:
"burn 'n destroy...
?n repent, 'n redeem
?n revenge, 'n deploy
'n rumble thee forth
To the land of the unbelieving scum on the other side
'cause they don't go for what's in the book
'n that makes 'em bad
So verily we must choppeth them up
And stompeth them down
Or rent a nice French bomb
To poof them out of existence
While leaving their real estate just where we need it
To use again
For temples in which to praise our god
("cause he can really take care of business!")
And when his humble TV servant
With humble white hair
And humble glasses
And a nice brown suit
And maybe a blond wife who takes phone calls
Tells us our God says
It's okay to do this stuff
Then we gotta do it,
'cause if we don't do it,
We ain't gwine up to hebbin!
(depending on which book you're using at the
Time...can't use theirs... it don't work
...it's all lies...gotta use mine...)
Ain't that right?
That's what they say
Every night...
Every day...
Hey, we can't really be dumb
If we're just following God's orders
Hey, let's get serious...
God knows what He's doin'
He wrote this book here
An? the book says:
He made us all to be just like him,"
So...
If we're dumb...
Then God is dumb...
(an' maybe even a little ugly on the side)
March 10, 2008 at 9:23 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nibbler (anonymous) says...
Yeah! Frank Zappa was a real big zero.
Hunter, sucker
Certainly people have done bad things claiming God or the Bible or the church told them or influenced them to do it, yet when you look close you find they were really representing themselves, their prejudice, hate, bitterness, etc. You guys need to seek things out for yourself. Don't cling to personalities like Zappa. Hunterdog's postings are quite like Zappa's lyrics. What about the Real Hunterdog? I would rather debate you not the reflection of Frank Zappa, he's dead after all and the dead know nothing.
March 10, 2008 at 9:37 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
suckerfreeforlife (anonymous) says...
The idea of a religious nutjob like yourself telling anyone to think for themselves is laughable. Your mind is as closed as they get.
That said, believe whatever you want, no skin off my nose. Just as long as you don't plan on flying any planes in to any buildings, like your oh so faithful brethren.
March 10, 2008 at 10:59 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
suckerfreeforlife (anonymous) says...
You know, i'm really not a HUGE fan of Zappa's work. Most if it is too avante garde for my mainstream ear.
However, Over-nite Sensation, Apostrophe, and Joe's Garage are brilliant.
He really was a singular musical talent. Gifted, intelligent, inspired, un-afraid, and entirely his own man.
Here's to Frank.
March 11, 2008 at 8:55 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bandmama (anonymous) says...
Hunterdog-be careful of asking for dates....dude. Remember
your Black Napkins.....................
March 11, 2008 at 5:54 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nibbler (anonymous) says...
Hunter-dog
Wherein was God prejudiced towards you?
Wherein was God hateful towards you?
Wherein was God bitter towards you?
March 11, 2008 at 7:37 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nibbler (anonymous) says...
Hunter-dog
If you were an eyewitness:
Name one thing you saw God do that was hateful.
Name one thing you saw God do that was prejudiced.
Name one thing you saw God do to develop bitterness.
Name what you saw God do.
March 11, 2008 at 7:51 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jeep (anonymous) says...
everyone on this subject, you all have your believes ,now you are fighting on the INTERNET not face to face why can't we take this blog off . plezzzzz
ps god is my friend..forever
March 11, 2008 at 9:49 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
emmalee (anonymous) says...
Two quotes to ponder:
"No structure can possibly be raised in our soul unless,
first, the foundations of true humility are laid in our hearts"
~St. John Cassian
"Pride dies twenty minutes after death"
~St.Francis De Sales
Religion or lack there of do not create injustices: Pride is the root of all evil. True Christians do not do anything with out first removing the "self". It's never really about you.
March 12, 2008 at 2:28 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
emmalee (anonymous) says...
If you read and interpret the Bible or any other sacred text with your own selfish motivations attached you may never grasp the true meaning of what written. It is easy to slurrrrrrr the message when you have selfish intentions. Hunterdog: if you are truly as self actualized as the wish us to believe, try removing your need to prove us wrong and live with a will to serve others. Then; Christian or not you may come close to emulating some of the behaviors that your "Blessed Zappa" possessed. Yes, I did agree with some of your "mumbo jumbo" as I stated earlier I wouldn't tell you or anybody else they are wrong to believe the way they choose. Selfish interpretations of any belief however can only lead to trouble. I think you are a person of deep insight, use it wisely.
March 12, 2008 at 2:52 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
prayerrequests (anonymous) says...
Hunter-dog
In my post I asked for eyewitness- by you. Empirical if you will, information. Not your straw man argument of quoting the Bible to defend your position that God is hateful prejudiced and bitter. That is just circular reasoning and I will not accept it for my question that I posed to you. Share with me a life experience that you witnessed with your own eyes where you saw God being hateful, bitter or prejudiced with out quoting the Bible. If it is the book of lies you claim it to be than it would certainly taint your testimony. If you persist in quoting the Bible to defend your beliefs than I would necessarily have to follow your logic through and say you are defending your lying lips with more lies. Circular logic.
March 12, 2008 at 9:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nibbler (anonymous) says...
Hunter-dog
EYE witness
EYE
WITNESS
March 12, 2008 at 10:12 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nibbler (anonymous) says...
Hunter-dog,
Sorry about posting at 9:41. User name wrong. Didn't realize computer was not logged out when I sat down to it at internet cafe.
March 12, 2008 at 10:21 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
suckerfreeforlife (anonymous) says...
That is such an inane request, I can't believe an adult human being is making it.
You want someone who vehemently denies the existence of God to point to an action by said non existent God?
The ONLY "evidence" of God is the Bible, which is supposed to be His/Hers/Its word. Yet the Bible is not sufficient to characterize Gods temperament? Absurd.
Of course, the list of bitter, hateful and prejudiced atrocities committed in the name of God is well documented and ever growing, but you no doubt sanitize that by claiming those are perversions of faith. In fact, those are the predictable consequences of faith.
March 12, 2008 at 10:27 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
emmalee (anonymous) says...
Hunterdog/ May I start "my" defense with secular definitions? Great, while you sniff and tinkle allow me.......As defined by Mr Webster himself....
*Evangelist-1. an author of the gospel. 2.itinerant preacher
*Apologist- 1.one in confession of fault in search of forgiveness through ones faith. 2. who uses a renouncement of faith to defend ones actions.
Now in both definitions I see no reference to stuffing one believes selfishly down someone else's neck. Therefore lets just remove for the sake of discussion those organized religious zealots who do this. As I stated earlier a true Christian would not. Since it never has been my intent nor will it ever be to attempt to convert, save or in any other way convince others to do as I do I feel I do apply this "rule" to myself. By todays general assumption of the definition an Evangelist is one who not only professes ones faith but selfishly feels everyone should believe the same. An Apologist however professes and may even share how they believe frequently leading by example to others but would not "brow beat their beliefs onto another". An example of this would be that certain churches even consider it a sin to interfere with the relationship that someone else holds with their "maker" or lack there of. This practice of "saving" others is really all about making some "dude" in a suit rich and feel good about himself. I can see why you along with many others have a sad interpretation of the church body. NO ONE is ever saved by these or other feel good conversions or professions of such. A true Christian (who does fail frequently *per earlier discussion) continues to always do what is right, just and as unselfish as possible. Then when death befalls us and if we arrive at the gates ONLY our maker can truly "save us". I love people who ask me if I'm saved. My patent answer on that is "working on it I'll get back to you after death". They really don't know how to answer. The only being there for that truly can save us (if you believe or profess to) is God and there for to interfere with his relationship what ever it may be is plainly a sin or black mark on our souls. So yes Hunter I do my best to apply these to my daily life and I do proclaim to be a Christian and if you also follow these rules then you my friend are closer to the "golden gates" and God's hand then you realize.
March 13, 2008 at 12:08 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
emmalee (anonymous) says...
Hunter/- I would not ask you to defend your position on God or the Bible. As everybody including our dear protestant etc... friends have different takes on these issues. Quoting the Bible is no different then quoting anything else to someone it is all in how it strikes you at that moment. There for every passage could mean something literal, paradoxical or even useless to each individual. So stop using scripture quotes to beat up others beliefs up and defend your stance if you must based on your experiences. Why could there be no God? I'm not criticizing but asking. Why are each of us with almost matching DNA all such independent thinkers of each other and other animals. Do you really think it is by chance that I am I and you are you? I think this is what others are also asking of you.
March 13, 2008 at 12:23 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
emmalee (anonymous) says...
H-dog: Almost forgot, "mumbo jumbo" Recitation of scriptures with your own interpretation attached. Just in case you wondered what I meant.
March 13, 2008 at 3:48 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
emmalee (anonymous) says...
H-dog/ What is your calling? What is your own definition of "faith"? (secular please:).
March 15, 2008 at 9:16 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
424now (anonymous) says...
To all the believers-Judge not lest ye be judged.
To all the non believer-Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
March 14, 2008 at 5:25 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
emmalee (anonymous) says...
H-dog/
~" Heb.9:13-14,22
Speaking such may not be a literal text but one of asking us to self sacrifice of our own loves to become less selfish (there it is again:) and more self actualized. The Bible is a series of parables and stories told and sensationalizes by man but handed down by God as a guide for moral living. It is possible to love another more than ourselves and by being asked to "sacrifice" others even the most innocent we are being asked to THINK. Did it occur to you that it is not a literal translation you are being asked to hear but simply a never ending question to ponder through out life's journey? Even if there is no existence of "God" would this question be out of line?
~ 1st Corn.14:34-35
All men answer to their maker (or lack there of) eventually. Nobody is in a place to judge others. I'm not judging you either. I have my reasons you have yours. Mine are based on the idea that when I put God's word into action in my life things seem less out of sorts. Chance ? maybe but I'll take my chances. When I don't things always go astray. I feel that even with out "seeing a tangible God" it seems so awe inspiring that so much "possibly handed down by him" seems so true and applicable to peace in my life and in my family.I'll run with it. Back to ALL men answer.... no one judge lest he be judged. No woman judge her man as she was placed on earth to be his "help meet". Our society today seems to have a blatant disrespect for our men and our women seem to have taken this and run with it whole hog. Our men are supposed to be providers, protectors, lovers share the house work and childcare evenly and when they fall short; the all mighty finger is pointed. Yet when women do the same we are fed by society a tousle of excuses to use for our failures is it no wonder why our men today doubt their very existence as being true. They (even at their best) usually feel as failures do to the women in their lives. If we as women honored, cherished and revered the men in our lives then this is what God is asking. How much peace would befall upon our families. (be clear I am not speaking of taking advantage of women but of respect)Are you the head of your household? How does your position in your home make you feel. And would taking a closer look at this scripture based on these principals and appling it at home make you a better man and if your wife (if you have one)would she be more cherished by you?
~ Deut. 13:6-10
Death of a man can take many forms (for one refer to last para).Besides the literal which is that of the living flesh, man can die also by his own shortcomings or those placed upon him be others (last paragraph again :). We are asked by God to admonish the sinner; to teach, to lead and if still in sin to turn our heads (shame). "So that we may rise again in glory to serve the living (our life on earth) and the dead (our Maker). Not really an issue of dirt and ashes but of morality.
March 15, 2008 at 12:22 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nibbler (anonymous) says...
Hunter-dog
I questioned your circular logic because you offer no tangible evidence of God being hateful, bitter, prejudiced. I merely applied the same logic you applied to your Christian family when you questioned their beliefs. You obviously saw something with your own eyes that caused you to question and then doubt. It obviously drives you now. Yet you will not bring it into the conversation. I see no point for you to pose scriptural questions to me when you obviously do not want an answer. You only want a spectacle. Why is this debate personal for you instead of scholarly?
March 14, 2008 at 8:28 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
emmalee (anonymous) says...
nibbler/ Thank -you for the eloquent bit of verbiage directed at H-dog. I too will wait for his answer. p.s. To H-dog, not all who believe want your money. Besides it's not yours, mine or anybody else's. It (everything) belongs to God. Possessions are only yours on loan.
March 14, 2008 at 8:40 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nibbler (anonymous) says...
Emmalee,
I agree with you about the money. Especially your honesty. No doubt there have been and will be people who steal, secular and religious. I often think of how Enron management cheated their own employees of there 401ks and manipulated electrical markets in California for personal gain. I would not be surprised if many people outside of Enron watched their own 401ks more closely after that scandal. I would be wrong to take the Enron scandal and apply it to all companies and call them thieves, but wisdom is learning what happened at Enron and watching my own employer closely for same flaws and calling them on the carpet if I see corruption. I think the same applies to believers. We are supposed to use discernement and good judgement to avoid wolves in sheeps clothing in all things.
March 14, 2008 at 9:20 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
emmalee (anonymous) says...
Nibbler/ The wolves are in all sects you are right. whether it's the teacher, minister or stranger that defiles : the worker, employee or employer that steals; or even if it is our own parents that lead us astray with their own examples or misdirected morals. Corruption is EVERYWHERE. No where in the Holy text are we asked to follow these leads or to do things of immoral standing as H-dog seems to believe. We are asked only to use these words to lead by example. "We are ALL called to Holy lives". Even if you are not a believer in the Bible or other texts. Those that stray in their vocations by not using all that precedes them as examples: or by not trying to better ourselves are doomed to relive history and that in it's self could be considered "H" on earth. So you need not believe, to burn or to be Holy. It's in you to hear your own calling
March 15, 2008 at 9:14 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Hadleyburg_Press (anonymous) says...
*mle believes god exists
*nibbles believes god exists
*mle believes nibble's belief in god validates her belief that god exists
*nibbles believes that mle's belief in god validates his belief in god
ERGO: god exists
-Christian version of a Peer Reviewed Theory-
PS. mle and nibbles, your amazing powers of logic and reasoning are needed on a another blog titled "we are all collateral". Stompk has used your hloy book to discover that the mark of the beast is VISA. Go help explain why he is wrong or right given his logic is precisely akin to yours.
March 15, 2008 at 9:16 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
emmalee (anonymous) says...
Hadley/ Your comments seem to reflect that which you and H-dog could also be congruent with. Surprising to me is that you would post for us to answer when you two have not come up with the answer. Lol. By the way question to H-dog: You too????
March 15, 2008 at 9:23 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
emmalee (anonymous) says...
Had/ To owe any man even that which is even an enormous debt of gratitude could gnaw away at another man soul if he has the humility to know that he could not repay if asked. When these debts become ones derived of selfish intent (read back several days) then the burden is even greater. One needs not to be a believer in God to feel a burden of debt weigh heavily upon his shoulders. Since we (humans) are self serving beings VISA is not using us with out our own consent. It's like the old saying "guns don't kill people;people kill people. If you don't like the "beast" (VISA)no one but you built the relationship."Just say no" Lol.
March 15, 2008 at 9:38 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
emmalee (anonymous) says...
H-dog/ Awe... "scholarly fairy tales". I believe that both sides of this issue could consider this "self contradictory" text. I have not failed to answer you nor am a afraid to do so. Impatience is the death of a good debate. Anger is a sign of frustration. To answer your inquiry at least by what a regard as "my" reasons for belief; I need you to answer with "secular and reasonable approach" the question I posed to you a few posts ago.
March 15, 2008 at 11:21 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nibbler (anonymous) says...
H-dog
It is interesting how you and Hadley jumped on Emmalee and I right away after one shared post. Is this paranoia?
I have read all your previous posts and see no point in answering your scriptural questions because you refuse to answer my questions posed to you about what drives you to such hatred against the Bible and God and Jesus. Your posts no doubt strong declare your ability to read the Bible, yet there is something inside your spirit that makes you read it to hate it. I know from your posts that this spiritual mechanism did not originate from your reading of the Bible or what you read from it but it clearly came from outside sources.
March 15, 2008 at 11:49 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
emmalee (anonymous) says...
H-dog sorry about the long post but you asked me to answer your questions. My interpretations may not be those of others and that's ok. However H-dog while you have a great ability to "quote " scripture your ability to "apply" these words to your life seems to not work for you. Hey, love ya man but try again :)
March 15, 2008 at 12:27 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
emmalee (anonymous) says...
H-dog/ "scholarly fairy tales" my verbiage not yours. No lack of comprehension sorry. Simply meant that both "phrases" could be applied to both sides of the discussion. I missed YOUR answer (not a restatement of mine)to what faith is to you and the answer to my other questions? Still curious? Not asking you to believe or defend just let us know what makes you tick. Hope I answered to your first scriptural quotes satisfactorily. have a few chores to do and if you REALLY need me to I'll answer your others. Anybody else care to give these a whirl Lol???
March 15, 2008 at 12:56 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
emmalee (anonymous) says...
H-dog/ While you are correct that I can not prove the existence of God (especially to you, certain aspects of scripture appear to make you squirm and pick and choose as well). Niether can you prove your theory beyond a reasonable doubt. Hello... that is why BOTH are considered theories. Kielbasa's answer to you earlier was right on). Prayers are offerings of deep thought, thanks and sometimes questions that need answers. I doubt that anybody who meditates, journals or ponders life's mysteries (prayer) either aloud or to ones self is insane.Sometimes we arrive at the answers we seek just through this process but simply doing these things does not make them "magical incantations" One who never does this would scare me. I never said that I believed in reincarnation ( did you mean The Koran)"the cow". Why does belief in God make us unstable and your lack there of make you not? Again I ask you what is YOUR calling in life? and let me add to that, "do you honestly believe that there is NO power greater than yourself?
March 15, 2008 at 1:54 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
emmalee (anonymous) says...
H-dog/ Never claimed to be for the degradation of of women.You are insightful when you want to be. Read what I wrote again maybe you missed something (sniff, sniff.....).
March 15, 2008 at 2:01 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
emmalee (anonymous) says...
H-dog stated I was guilty of "cherry picking" look who is calling the kettle black? I may be guilty as charged but look hard at yourself:)
March 15, 2008 at 2:13 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nibbler (anonymous) says...
Emmalee
This is my last post. Notice h-dog's march15 11:58 am post.
See his qoutes of scripture for King David on how Goliath was slain? H-dog is wrong. 1 Samuel 17:45 Tells us Goliath had a sword. After David knocked him out with the stone from a sling he ran up and drew the giant's own sword and decapitated him. This is deliberate on h-dog's part. Just as much as he ignores the truth about himself in previous posts he also ignores verses previous to the ones he qoutes in the Bible. H-dog never has read the Bible. He mishandles the scripture to us because his sources mishandled it to him. If you go way back up in the posts you will see initially many different people conversed with h-dog and many sickened by the illogic of his comments. In these later posts the commentators are you, me and h-dog. Hadley is just h-dog talking to himself, why? Because he is lonely. When one like h-dog is lonely they crave attention. Good or bad, deserved or undeserved any will do. Therefore misqouting scripture intentional or not is his goal. Crude characterizations of the children of the King are not done because they are true or false, but to push a button and harvest a reaction. Attention.
This is where it all starts to come home for h-dog. He seeks attention because he did not get it as a child. The God hating aspect comes in from his family life as a child (look to h-dog response to ethan above). H-dog blames all his problems and faults on his christian family upbringing. I don't know if it was good or bad or if the fault lies only with h-dog and he needs a scapegoat so he does not have to face himself and heal. H-dog is athiest because he needs it to live (in his own mind).
The athiest persona is some one he can be codependent on. Athiesm reassures him that all christians are messed up and God is bad and the Bible is full of lies. Athiesm needs people like h-dog. They need people to agree with them and believe in them and spread their gospel otherwise they would disappear like a vapor.
March 17, 2008 at 2:22 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nibbler (anonymous) says...
Whoever h-dog is he closely identifies with his username and probably in more ways than he realizes. Hunterdog is like a dog hunting for attention. Ever been to the Steamboat animal shelter? Notice the puppy dogs. They crave attention from any who walk into the room they will do anything for attention, good or bad. Unless they are loved on, disciplined with love and brought up-right, they will continue to jump all over you and nip at your fingers and heels, bark at you, throw their body at you well beyond puppyhood. All for what purpose? Attention.They need love but don't know what it is or how to get it. Hunterdog goes to great lengths to gather any attention/love just like this puppydog hunting for attention. The biting of the puppydog is like Hunter misqouting scripture it is done deliberately for attention at the expense of any fruitful discussion. Children like this act out in class and disrupt it purely for attention and are satisfied even if disciplined. Athiesm is a great source of attention and going out and bashing God the Bible and Jesus (see h-dogs response to ethan) gives h-dog much satisfaction, it matters not if he is right or wrong. In fact the more people respond to h-dogs bashing the more excited the puppydog gets and jumps and nips all the more.
Any master whose dog misbehaves is also at fault. Perhaps h-dogs master is also at fault for his behavior. Maybe he had a dysfunctional family, no father figure or a bad father figure. Something cut off the love, attention and discipline that H-dog should've got. Many children don't realize their families are dysfunctional because it is the only family they know and therefore it must be right. They go on to be adults and have families and commit the exact same mistakes their parents did and not even realize it, but are rather apt to blame some one else for the dysfunction. In this case God the Father.
March 17, 2008 at 2:27 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nibbler (anonymous) says...
Speaking directly to h-dog: you had a dysfunctional family weather you admit it or not. It is functional in your mind because it is all you knew. You attack God because the family He offers to you appears dysfunctional in your eyes.Your eyes have only seen your family and anything different is offensive and threatens to uncover all the skeletons in the closet of a dysfunctional family. I know. I have been there. I do pray for you Hunter-dog. I pray that God is gracious towards you even while you attack Him. I pray that Jesus will never cease to knock on your door. I know God will always be ready to reach down and lift you up if you ask Him. Not flippantly but when you have tired of shining your own light on yourself, when your tired of the bitterness, the hatred and the tears. I know God has more love for you than He does me. How could that be? Read the prodigal son in the NT. The one son who stayed at home with his father was jealous of all the attention his father showered on his lost son when he came home. The fathers response to his son jealousy was that he knew the one was safe but the other was lost and his heart yearned for his lost son. God has a heart Hunter and He yearns for you. He has so much love to shower on you that it would stun you, absolutely stun you. So much love that he would send His only Son to die for you. So much love that every angel shouts for joy when you ask Him to save you. He has a family that loves you so much that it is beyond words to describe.
March 17, 2008 at 2:30 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
emmalee (anonymous) says...
Nibbler/ I agree with your post in all aspects. I think you are more on the money than "we" will ever know in regards to H-dog. H-dog/ keep ski'n and do'in what ever you do. I feel confident that you will do well and hopefully you will be richly blessed. I know you have talents and an intense heart for knowledge and answers in life, it is obvious we will not agree. However you are in my prayers as well. Nibbler/ Peace be with you :)
March 17, 2008 at 12:53 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
colobob (anonymous) says...
dogdiogenes7, wondering if you are one and the same with _________?
dogdiogens7 not posted here but elswhere.
CURIOUS!!
March 17, 2008 at 1:05 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
emmalee (anonymous) says...
"Let us be silent that we may hear the whisper of God"
~unknown
March 18, 2008 at 11:35 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
hippiehunter (anonymous) says...
In my opinion (in fact, in any intelligent person's opinion), nibbler's tactics are completely despicable. Whenever H-dog asks him (or her) a reasonable question about the logic of the bible, not only does he answer back with the same old "the bible is true because the bible says it is" argument (not even a real argument), he starts to attack H-dog's personal life and his family life in an attempt to hide his own foolishness. The last defense of a desperate man: God made it happen. The second-to-last: attack the credibility of your opponent instead of answering the friggin' question. Nibbler has used both of these.
March 19, 2008 at 8:32 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
hippiehunter (anonymous) says...
Colobob, i though you said earlier that you weren't going to get involved in this debate, that you just wanted to proclaim your faith in a gawd.
March 19, 2008 at 8:43 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ethan (anonymous) says...
I expect this back and forth dialog has convinced few readers of anything, other then that some lucky folks have an abundance of free time on their hands.
As I stated above in more detail, I believe the pivotal question for each of us to decide for ourselves is: what am I going to do about Jesus? Again, my suggestion is that you do not rely upon your feelings, random thoughts, twisted information or experiences from childhood or the arguments presented here. Instead, conduct your own extensive historical research on the key question of whether historical evidence better supports the argument that Jesus lived, died and arose from the dead as the Bible says he did, or does the preponderance of the evidence support that it was all a hoax. If you conclude His resurrection was a hoax, you can join the crowd mocking and ridiculing Christians. But if you conclude as I did that He is who the Bible says he is, get ready for the ride of your life.
I know I wasn't the first person that put extensive (secular) education in historical research as well as legal skills to use in trying to debunk the Christianity myth, only to come away a believer and a follower of Jesus Christ, and I imagine I won't be the last. My research was how I came to believe what I believe, and what's happened to me in my life as result of what I now believe is all the proof that I need. My belief and faith are as solid as the rock (Jesus) upon which they are built.
As an aside, when I just skimmed the last few hundred posts here (!) it made me think of an analogy that once occurred to me: if Jesus were to appear today in the sky over NYC, were to preform several miracles (think parting of the Atlantic ocean magnitude) and then spoke clearly to the world for several hours, having his presence, miracles and words captured by the networks, newspapers and all the technology in existence, I think it is nevertheless extremely likely that the following day a school of thought would quickly gain momentum that it was all a hoax.... i.e. denying God's existence and/or Jesus resurrection from the grave as is supported by the preponderance of historical evidence, does not mean He didn't die for your sins, doesn't love you and isn't waiting for you to 'discover' him.
March 19, 2008 at 12:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
424now (anonymous) says...
Faith in an unprovable belief does not instantly equate to delusion. It more readily can be described as a moral conviction.
April 24, 2008 at 2:48 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Jay_K (anonymous) says...
Wow, I haven't been on here in a month, and this thread's still going strong... Okay, where to begin?
emmalee- You do not understand what the term "species" entails, obviously. It's a man-made construct. *WE* assign the term to any group of animals that can breed with each other and produce viable offspring. That's it. Quite obviously, every fossil is going to be a species, as there would have been other animals to breed with it. The term you're looking for is "transitional form". And there are *LOTS* of transitional fossils. Archaeopteryx is the most famous one, for starters. It had the wings and feathers of a bird, and the teeth and scales of a reptile. A lizard/bird, in short. So, to answer your question, yes, we've dug up a lot of those. As for this comment of yours: "...are the scientists not as narrow minded as some believers." why, yes, at times they are. That's why science has developed things like peer review, double-blind testing, statistical analysis, etc. Religion, on the other hand, has no such system of checks and balances.
michyah- I'll give you the benefit of the doubt when you say you've read your holy book in the original Hebrew. I'll point out, though, that we don't have any of the New Testament in Hebrew. The earliest translations we have were in Koine Greek. Read that too, do you?
egoeater- "...God describes when he likens people as the size of grasshoppers. Basically He is describing His point of view." He's not very high up in the air, then, is he? A hundred feet or so? Or maybe he's just really tall.
katrinka- "Only one man split time in our history." Incorrect. Before posting, look up the facts, please. We use the Gregorian calendar (which was flawed in its starting date to begin with), and as we're Americans and the world's only remaining superpower, international business goes along with us. Other calendars in use around the world make no mention of (or allusion to) Joshua of Galilee.
H_Press- "and a treed bear is bad for the fruit..." That made me grin.
Is egoeater seriously suggesting that his devil is Hunterdog's father? o.O
ethan- Hunterdog, again and again, has underscored this: If you make an extraordinary claim, you need extraordinary evidence. You claim your god exists. You claim that the early Christian writers (whom *ALL* lived long after the events which purportedly took place and wrote everything by hearsay) got the details right. Where is the empirical evidence of this? Your appeal to emotion is invalid in debate, as are anecdotes. You say the Bible is true because it makes you feel all warm inside. Sorry, the real world doesn't work like that. To requote Nietzsche, "A causual stroll through an insane asylum shows that faith does not prove anything."
Hunterdog- Props and kudos to you for keeping up the good fight.
March 20, 2008 at 9:26 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bandmama (anonymous) says...
First, I know when not to join a discussion....
Second, I can vouch that Hunterdog and Hadley are not the same person...
Third- Hippiehunter- you rock dude.
Lastly (for now) Although I personally feel that ones beliefs will never be changed by faith based discussions, ignorance prevents intelligent thoughts. Blind faith is "faith"
If you have kudos to you, if you dont you wont.
Hunterdog- nice comments about the earthworms....I had never thought of that...wow what a concept- my whole belief system has changed.............
March 20, 2008 at 12:04 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
hippiehunter (anonymous) says...
Wow hunterdog, that's some pretty philosophical stuff for an online comment about an editorial in a small town newspaper:).
ethan, you continue to throw your "research" into your belief of the xtian myth, yet if you really did any such research, you would realize that nothing in this world points to the existence of a supreme deity that watches over us all. Please, enlighten me, what great secret did you learn that made you believe in xtianity?
March 21, 2008 at 8:58 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
hippiehunter (anonymous) says...
thnx for the nice comments, bandmama.
To me, the main difference between the religious community and the non-religious community is this: Those who believe in a god are fine to just stop there; they don't want to seek more answers. They believe in what they are told from the day they are born and are not taught to ever question it. This is probably comforting to them on one hand, but the reality of the world is that it IS full questions, full of doubt. Athiests and agnostics have the cojones to ask WHY, to actually question what they are being told. They seek answers to life's great mysteries instead of blindly following the writings of their ancient text. When it comes down to it, most xtians are afraid to participate in a real religious discussion because, deep down, they know that they can and will be proven wrong when facing logical thought.
March 21, 2008 at 9:49 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ethan (anonymous) says...
Well what a shocker! I see that I've been challenged by the bullies in the back of the bus and now if I don't play be their rules they're going to mock, ridicule and ....what next, threaten me!? Oh my oh my, what a fright.
Sorry dudes, I've no interest in a debate or even further discussion with you. (Headsup - this is where you should scoff in an all-knowing kind of way.. wink, wink, nod nod). At this point I'd no sooner attempt a serious discussion with you (let alone share my unique personal work and experiences) then I'd attempt a serious dialog with the twenty drunk guys sitting behind me at a ballgame in the Bronx who are belligerently screaming 'Red Sox suck!' and actively looking for Sox fans to ridicule, harass and/or fight. Like with the topic at hand, I have all the evidence i need to firmly believe in the validity of a very different conclusion then the one being arrogantly espoused. I think the Red Sox don't suck, and for me, there's sufficient evidence to make that a reasonable belief. Similarly i believe that Jesus is the son of God and is who the Bible says He is, and that He died on a cross and rose again to save me (and you knuckleheads too) from eternal death, and for me there is sufficient evidence to make that a reasonable belief. But why in the world would I waste any more of my time interacting with belligerent and disrespectful 'experts' whose very behavior demonstrates they aren't worthy of my respect or the attention that they are desperately seeking?
March 21, 2008 at 12:44 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ethan (anonymous) says...
(con't)
Also, like you, they seem a little confused.
You both seem to think that you have the right to not only be rude and disrespectful, but to also pass judgment on the conclusions reached by those of us who've looked at the evidence and drawn a different conclusion. And strangely, you also seem to have constructed a paradigm where you believe that I have the burden of proof to convince you of the logic and evidence supporting why I came to believe what I believe. I have no such obligation. Standards of evidence, burdens of proof... any other rules for this board that you've all agreed to in your mutual fantasy?
I posted to suggest that interested but undecided readers should look into the historical evidence supporting the Christian belief system before reaching their own conclusions, rather then defer to arrogant bullies who are suggesting that their atheistic views alone are correct, that their standards regarding the evaluation of evidence are the only ones that matter and that anyone who doesn't reason and believe the way they do should be attacked and ridiculed. Like the drunk punks at the ballpark, you deserve the same response - being ignored either until you run out of steam or reap what you've sown. (HD- I wonder what type of person has read your posts, watched you attempt to mock and belittle others and thought to themselves, 'gee, I want what he has... think I'll become an atheist and start acting like a rude dog'... which is what you're trying to role-model, right?)
Ok smart guys, here's where you howl, scratch, and then do whatever else it is you dogs do when you're excited. I expect you'll now need to amp up your efforts to more vehemently force your distorted paradigm and flawed agenda down the throats of the unsuspecting reader. But I, for one, am done being distracted and plan to move to those open seats behind the plate so I can watch what's turning out to be a masterpiece of a game.
Good luck with that atheist thing, guys... hope it works out for you.
March 21, 2008 at 12:47 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
playa46 (anonymous) says...
nibbler,
praying for someone like Hunter Dog for what you say is "forgiveness" is a load of crap. As a christian myself, I know what i am talking about when i say, GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT. However, this pretty much cannot be possible because of the idea of "faith". Seriously your "faith" just shows how weak and scared a human can be if they feel cornerd and out of luck when they cannot overcome a situation.
If the Bible is sooo correct, why is thier so much evidence against it? Did you ever look back when the roman catholics controlled europe and scared people to BUY thier stuff?
The Bible therefore canot possibly be correct. There have been to many poeple re-writing it to make your so called "truth" worse than it really is. And this my friend, is what we call FACT.
Good lick with your big man in the sky.
March 21, 2008 at 3:54 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
playa46 (anonymous) says...
oh, and ethan, i see you calling people athiests, however i am a christian and have also opened my eyes to what the world can really be. Ya know, if you believe that christianity is the most peacfull religion their is, why are you so comftorable with the fact that Millions of people where slaughtered during the crusades.
If you want more evidence, read the book of Exodus, it states that an angel of death will come and KILL every none christian that is a first born.
And to add to that, the only way to stop the angel from killing your child is spray BLOOD over your door.
So next time, think about it when you call a person an athiest, because trust me, they may seem against everything you know, but one reason why is because your religion is whole lot worse than their facts.
As for the peacfull thing, i recomend you becoming a buddhist, but that'll send you straight to hell anyway. Have a nice day. :)
March 21, 2008 at 4:03 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
424now (anonymous) says...
Chukle
March 21, 2008 at 4:34 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
playa46 (anonymous) says...
uhhhh thanks hunter dog.......... sorry for backing you up
March 21, 2008 at 5:01 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
playa46 (anonymous) says...
oh hehehe :P
March 21, 2008 at 5:24 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
hippiehunter (anonymous) says...
Seriously playa, spellcheck is on your computer for a reason :).
ethan, i'm hurt. i really am. do you find me so insignificant that you won't even answer my question? That doesn't seem very xtian (oh, wait, nevermind...), and i don't think god would like that disrespectful behavior.... :>
March 21, 2008 at 8:14 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Hadleyburg_Press (anonymous) says...
"If Jesus had been killed 20 years ago, Catholic school children would be wearing little Electric Chairs around their necks instead of crosses"
-Lenny Bruce 1965-
March 22, 2008 at 9:37 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
424now (anonymous) says...
The current common practice in that region is to either sever ones head or to put a bullet through it. The head severing would be more likely, saves ammunition. We would be wearing kalishnakoffs or scimitars.
Or as the early Christians did we would meet in secret.
March 23, 2008 at 9:45 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
hippiehunter (anonymous) says...
Not cool, playa. No matter how much we dislike and disagree with these people, we try not to dish out too much verbal abuse; try being more subtle with it, or else ur probably going to get blocked.
March 23, 2008 at 9:46 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
QuitYerWhining (anonymous) says...
Ethan said-"Similarly i believe that Jesus is the son of God and is who the Bible says He is, and that He died on a cross and rose again to save me (and you knuckleheads too) from eternal death, and for me there is sufficient evidence to make that a reasonable belief.....And strangely, you also seem to have constructed a paradigm where you believe that I have the burden of proof to convince you of the logic and evidence supporting why I came to believe what I believe. I have no such obligation.
Au contraire mon frere :when you go to the polls and elect some self serving dimwit who has aspirations or one upping his daddy and is hell bent on global domination because you think he will help you with your narrow minded goal of legislating morality for the rest of us sinners:.you have an obligation not to just the citizens of the US but the rest of the world.
March 24, 2008 at 3:48 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
QuitYerWhining (anonymous) says...
My favorite bumper sticker:
"The last time we mixed politics and religion people got burned at the stake"
March 24, 2008 at 4:13 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Hadleyburg_Press (anonymous) says...
One does not need religion to have morals. Regardless, I respect anyone who leads a moral life. Primarily one that involves a compassion for the needs of others and mutual respect.
April 24, 2008 at 6:20 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
playa46 (anonymous) says...
I have to agree with Quityerwhining. I also believe that Jesus is our savior and that we will all be saved one day, even the athiests. People who think non-christians go straight to hell cannot be correct. We need more evidence besides the bible to tell us what is what.
March 24, 2008 at 6:30 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
hippiehunter (anonymous) says...
playa,
You say that we need more evidence than the bible "to tell us what is what." However, the only evidence that Hayzeus was our savior IS the bible. Please, are you just picking the parts of the bible that you want to believe? Besides, the bible has been altered so much over the past 1500 years that Jesus could have actually been a common thief with an unusually convincing cover story (if he actually existed, which no one has yet to prove).
March 24, 2008 at 10 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
hippiehunter (anonymous) says...
Heeelloooo? ethan? nibbler? aren't you interested in proving the logic of your belief systems anymore?
March 24, 2008 at 10:03 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
playa46 (anonymous) says...
hunter dog,
You are right, I am just picking parts of the bible. And I know as a christian that I have such little proof and that I can only have two things to say that there is a God, the Bible and Faith. However when you say that the bible has been altered over the past 1500 years, it could point to that "hayzues" could indeed have been a theif. But your idea can also backfire, being altered for over 1500 years, it could also mean that all of the sayings that the bible is not correct disproofs that theroy.
The reason why scientists say they have found "Hayzues" whilst the Bible states that he departed to heaven can point to either one or the other. Someone 1500 years ago could have decided that, "No, this is incorrect" and changed that in the bible making it his or her version of the story, thus blinding us from the truth.
So you could be right, and I mean COULD. But your idea can still backfire. And who knows? Maybe I am just worshiping some invisible man in the sky, but when I ask, where did the first Big Bang come from, could you explain to me that?
The only thing I wish is that people accept what I believe, that's it.
March 25, 2008 at 10:05 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
hippiehunter (anonymous) says...
playa,
Okay, you want to know about the Big Bang? Here, let me explain it to you. At one point in time, around 17 billion years ago, the universe was packed into a tiny particle, smaller than an atom, that was insanely dense and insanely hot. Now, as I understand it (from watching SCIENTIFIC documetaries, not by reading a book with absolutely no basis in fact), the four forces of nature (gravity, electromagnetism, lesser nuclear force, and greater nuclear force) were all joined in this one miniscule particle. At one point, gravity broke off from the other forces and caused a kind of turmoil. This discord caused the explosion known today as the Big Bang.
March 27, 2008 at 8:41 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
playa46 (anonymous) says...
HH,
After hearing lots of facts, I understand that the big bang was the most realistic way we all came. But tell me, what created the first big bang, knowing that this process has repeated over and over again?
March 27, 2008 at 9:51 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
424now (anonymous) says...
OK,
I considered the multiverse and it just made sence. So I bought it! Put down an initial payment negotiated terms and moved in, been making payments ever since. Great view.
Wave theory now, whats the deal with that? Is it a plane or a wave? I just got used to all those flat planes with a celestial body sinking down into it. Now that plane undulates like a wave?
Saw a discovery channel show where the black hole was diagrammed as a funnel. At the end of the vortex, the singularity was squeezing out X-rays at an incredible rate. They were attributing a large portion of the background radiation noise measurable in the universe to this event. If mattter and energy are relative, couldn't the Energy be all the light, matter, radiation, ... going into the funnel, spit out as X-Rays?
I imagine the black hole as a cosmic twister dropping out of one plane/wave of space/time to stand on a second plane/wave of space time sending all that energy along the second plane/wave. The ripples go out away from the impact until they stike the edge of the pond. Ahh but there is no edge. Does the space- time plane wave only exists as long as the ripples undulate?
March 28, 2008 at 1:23 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
QuitYerWhining (anonymous) says...
424- uuuuh...would like fries with that? ;>
March 28, 2008 at 2:40 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bandmama (anonymous) says...
playa46- if you had been paying attention in science class you would have known what hippie so nicely explained to you......
hippiehunter-spellcheck yourself boy!
Hunterdog-just curious, you busy this weekend, lets get together and discuss sin......
March 28, 2008 at 2:53 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
hippiehunter (anonymous) says...
lol lol, 424now
March 29, 2008 at 1:22 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
424now (anonymous) says...
Yeah yeah I get a little out there sometimes.
The more I learn the less I know. I ask questions to gain understanding. Its how I came to have a little unstanding of many things. As I age
As I age, I intend to increase my understanding until I acheive complete ignorance. As you can see I am well on my way.
March 28, 2008 at 6:18 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
playa46 (anonymous) says...
Bandmama,
I am pretty sure I understand hippie hunter's explanation clearly, tell me what I am saying wrong. (I am not meaning this in a bad way, I just want to know what I am missing.) Oh and by the way, I have an A- in science now, don't tell me I don't pay attention in that class. :)
March 28, 2008 at 8:05 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
hippiehunter (anonymous) says...
Playa,
Yes, you must be a scientific expert, considering that about 3 weeks ago, you didn't even know how evolution worked.
Considering the Big Bang, i like the theory that it was created by a black hole in a previous universe, one that swallowed everything, including other black holes. this hole would have consumed every piece of matter and anti-matter, and when these two types of matter came into contact with one another, they let loose a massive release of energy, which created the Big Bang. BTW, "Big Bang" is a misnomer. Since there was no oxygen to be consumed by fire, there was no "bang", and considering the finite size of the universe at that time, it was by no means "big".
March 29, 2008 at 1:20 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
424now (anonymous) says...
Awww HH,
Don't take away the bang! Where is the fun in visualizing an explosion the size of a universe with absolutely no audio?
OK kids in the beginning there was this Big Flash!
Can we at least point out that was like a monster shock wave?
March 29, 2008 at 5:43 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
playa46 (anonymous) says...
HipieHunter,
Thanks for the explanation, and yes, I did not know how evolution SPECIFICALLY worked, but just because I don't know much about it doesn't have anything to do with the BB theory, and for some reason, you think that since I have an A- in science, you think I am supposed to know everything don't you? Grades only consist on what we have learned IN CLASS. Were not even able to discuss religion in school because science has much more evidence than christians do. So when christians are trying to prove that their religion is true, they pretty much will not be able to find any answers.
What I think is funny, is why Athiests are always trying to get ride of christians because:
1. Why do you even care if there is a religion? The way I see it, if science is true (which it probably is), people in religion are safe, because they won't be going to a "Dark Abyss" or something like that and they will just rot in the ground.
2. No matter how hard you try, people will not open their minds or even consider the facts of nature.
However for me, I feel as if most have you have given me more options to the meaning of life, as I feel more as an agnostic than a thiest. I have seen in HH's other posts that athiest and agnostics actually ask "Why" the things are the way they are. I feel like I agree with this.
March 30, 2008 at 5:11 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
424now (anonymous) says...
playa46
I am a Christian.
I have direct experience in the medical, aerospace. electronic and now the home building fields. I have learned the scientific method first hand through my vocations. Science is my tool of choice for discovery. Faith has no place in my scientific method. Science has no bearing on my faith. This is my choice.
I still believe in God and I have a faith in Christ as our savior. I have done my due diligence in reference to other religions. I studied Buddhism, Taoism, Catholicism, Islam and the Jewish faith. These things I did because I had a faith inside me. I just believe that God exists. To explain that feeling adequately I don't think is possible. I do believe it has a lot to do with my Southern Baptist upbringing.
I take all of those religious assertions for their moral value. Some of these assertion I accept on faith as correct and true. That is my faith, my choice and my decision.
March 31, 2008 at 7:35 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
emmalee (anonymous) says...
h-dog- Speaking of sin I met your wife(you must be human, you have a spouse Lol) and a friend of yours out this weekend .Wow. You should keep track of your possessions
April 1, 2008 at 1:04 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
oldskoolstmbt (anonymous) says...
emmalee....show some class..or at least some of that "christian" attitude you posses
April 1, 2008 at 2:24 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bandmama (anonymous) says...
playa46-just messing with you, you know I love you!!!!!!! I was pointing out another know it all.....y'all.
emmalee-were you there also?
oldskool- I think emmalee was showing that attitude....
hippiehunter- ever consider that maybe the big bang was just an angel farting?
April 1, 2008 at 5:27 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
playa46 (anonymous) says...
424now,
As a good friend once said, "faith is for the weak," however, like you I believe that Jebus was resurected and that thier could be a a god. I was not saying that christians are fake (I am an also) I was just pointing out that the big bang THEORY, could be a hoax, or an angel fart (hehehe). I was also asking why athiests go to such trouble to prove to christians that they are inncorrect.
In short, I feel as if you're putting words in my mouth that I never said.
April 1, 2008 at 8:55 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
emmalee (anonymous) says...
H-dog, April Fools; however get checked out man!!!
Old skool, lighten up
April 1, 2008 at 8:59 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
424now (anonymous) says...
Playa
You can call me 42. My mom called me 424now when I was in trouble.
If ever I say something that misrepresents another one of your's or anyone elses comments, I ask that you call me on it. I will as in this case promptly apologize for the transgression.
Sorry about that.
but,
My premise in my last post was this.
Science can not prove or disprove a matter of faith. It is wrong of some of those intellectual folks out there to condemn faith in others. To say that God does not exist with absolute certainty in your tone is a statement of belief. Ergo these intellectuals have faith that god does not exists. They choose to have faith in a negative. To say faith is for the weak is not a statement of fact. It is an opinion. As with body parts everyone has one. Their faith in the negative intimates a weakness in them also.
We do not know absolutely. We have faith or a lack there of and that is all we have. For me faith is enough.
The more I learn about the multiverse and all its workings the more impressed I am with God. This is circular reasoning that I based it on my faith in the existence of God.
Whateva!
Keep the faith!
April 2, 2008 at 1:26 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
oldskoolstmbt (anonymous) says...
emmelee...ur right, i'll try to lighten up if you give the-cramming-of-the-holy-book a rest.
April 3, 2008 at 3:13 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
emmalee (anonymous) says...
hey oldskool... Hello.... last post to entertain you folks was on March 18 had better things to do than argue with a bunch of school kids and people who think regardless of their vision for a gawd that they are the end all on earth. That said, I do find you all very entertaining (kinda like Sat. Night Live: Live). So upon reading your post for the first time in several days I couldn't help but post a funny from a friend of H-dog's for April fools. He knows I was kidding and you really need to get a life.
April 3, 2008 at 5:39 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bandmama (anonymous) says...
oldskool-fyi, emmalee is not the only holy book crammer here.... and her comments were directed to hdog, about his wife, he should be the one to repsond.
Just had to give my input here.
emmalee- believe me, the dog checks out just fine!
April 3, 2008 at 5:51 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
emmalee (anonymous) says...
Bandmama/ Glad to know he is feeling better. Jokes aside :)
April 3, 2008 at 5:54 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
emmalee (anonymous) says...
To general readers h-dogs health issue had nothing to do w/ my comment about his wife. A friend of his was messing w/ him. How ever he was under the weather and his friend was concerned. O-skool Try on those Christian walk'in shoes for size!Guess what things aren't always as they seem.
April 3, 2008 at 6 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
playa46 (anonymous) says...
42,
Actually, I should be apologizing. I read your post wrong and thought you meant something different (my bad). I now look at your latest post:
"The more I learn about the multiverse and all its workings the more impressed I am with God. This is circular reasoning that I based it on my faith in the existence of God."
I like that reasoning, in fact saying that "time" has always existed (which is what scientists say started the big bang) is pretty much faith itself. I am talking to you sbvor.
Again my bad! :(
April 3, 2008 at 7:50 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
hippiehunter (anonymous) says...
Playa,
The reason that athiests are always trying to prove xtians wrong is because they make an extraordinary claim yet provide no evidence. Think about it. I could tell you that it was raining potatoes, and you would require proof that this was a truthful claim (incidentaly, this scenario is about as believable as the whole xtian myth anyway). Yet you still believe this myth. Basically, the whole reason why your beliefs are questioned is because you blindly follow the your faith, when if you make any major decisions in your life, you should make sure that you have some evidence to support them.
BTW, I would like to present you with a scenario of my own invention. Your belief system has about as much evidence as the Harry Potter series (and probably less followers :)). Is it not possible that in two thousand years someone finds these books and creates the First National Church of Harry Potter? If this is possible, then is it also possible that this is the same thing that happened with Jebus?
April 4, 2008 at 9:03 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bandmama (anonymous) says...
hippiehunter-"Jebus" or "Jesus"?
I can provide evidence that "Jebus" is real......
April 4, 2008 at 11:56 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
emmalee (anonymous) says...
Hippiehunter, Do yourself a favor..... :)
Go do some extensive reading on St. Thomas of Aquinas and get back to me after some considerable research. I have a feeling that you are very young and have a lot to learn still.
April 4, 2008 at 3:11 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bandmama (anonymous) says...
emmalee- just curious as to the suggestion of this particular Saint?
the teachings of Aquinas still state that God is neither self-evident nor beyond proof.
The quinquae viae provided five "rational proofs" of Gods existence,
(no, these are not exact but,)
God is simple, God is perfect, God is immutable, God is infinite and God is one
Thus according to teachings, Gods essence is the same as Gods existense
simply put, same arguement. Different Saint.
I also believe that the teachings of Aquinas considers Theology a Science.
He also believed that truth is known through reason......AND faith....
Supernatural revelations are only revealed through prophets, scripture and tradition.
Why am I asking?
Because it only backs up hippiehunters point.
April 4, 2008 at 4:18 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
424now (anonymous) says...
sbvor,
I actually got giddy over those last links. I literally said out loud "Oh Boy!"
I have a faith in more than the existence of God.
I have the faith that M-theory will lead to a more generlized unified field thory. Oops! There I go again spouting off at the mouth about a theory of everything.
April 4, 2008 at 5:59 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
424now (anonymous) says...
I aspire to a state complete ignorance, and I am well on my way.
April 4, 2008 at 7:19 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
playa46 (anonymous) says...
Sbvor,
Since Christians are so fake and have absolutly no proof, tell me. In your last posts if you notice, everything you throw at us has something to do with what we call THEORY.
emmalee,
knowing who hippiehunter really is, he has lots of reason and fact. Visiting that chruch you were saying doesn't actually prove any point.
hippiehunter,
You are still missing the point. So what if xtians feel that they know the truth? Do you just feel so angry that you would do anything in your power (which in your case is rotting in the ground) to shove your evidence in their faces? As I said in one of my last posts, you cannot get rid of every single xtian, they have too much faith to let it all go.
And by the way, I really wish you would stop singling me out, I admit I go to church and believe in a God, but that doesn't mean I am open minded. :)
April 5, 2008 at 7:23 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
hippiehunter (anonymous) says...
Playa,
You wonder why I single you out when you openly admit that you close minded. I find this extremely amusing. Anyone who is not only close-minded, but also actually realizes that they are and does nothing about it deserves to be "singled-out." THAT is why I take aim at xtians. They ignore or manipulate every bit of scientific evidence dug up in the past thousand years our so, all of which points to the non-existence of a supreme deity. I would call that close-minded.
Now, as for your post, emmalee,
As I just stated above, I greatly dislike close-mindedness, but I admit that I am a bit prejudiced when it comes to religion. Therefore, I will do your little research project just to show that I am not a hypocrite. After that, I would gladly discuss that particular saint with you.
P.S. I am proud to say that I have just written the six-hundredth post on this article. BOOYAH!!!! Let's try to bring that number up to 700... but then, of course, we'd need to get nibbler or ethan to come back on....
April 5, 2008 at 11:14 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
hippiehunter (anonymous) says...
Playa,
Just to answer a few of the questions you posted a few weeks back; I just never got around to it. My bad.
Now, you ask me why I care if people believe in a religion. There are a couple of reasons for that. The first is pretty apparent. There are way too many, and by way to many I mean more than none, things (not just atrocities, but THINGS) done in the name of a god. Just to name a few of the bad ones: 9/11, the Crusades, the Inquisition, witch burnings, Manifest Destiny, and most of the Mel Gibson movies. Good things that could never have been done WITHOUT religion: ................. I got nothing. Second, the whole mentality that goes with religion goes against one of my highest principles, which has to do with ignorance. Now, I don't hate ignorance; I accept it as a part of life and I pity those with it. What I hate is those who have no desire to gain knowledge, who actually choose to live in ignorance and do nothing about it. To me, nothing is more loathesome, yet this is exactly what is taught at places of worship around the world. Just think of how many centuries our species has been set back scientifically, technologically, and philosophically because anytime we come up with a new theory or idea, it is deemed blasphemus and is thrown into the trash bin. That is why I care about religion, playa, and why I see it as a major problem.
April 5, 2008 at 11:58 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
hippiehunter (anonymous) says...
(cont.)
As for your second question (or statement, rather), there are people out there who will see the inaccuracies and contradictions of their beliefs and say, "Hey, these charming fellows named hippiehunter, hunterdog, Hadleyburg Press, and quite a few others (sorry people, I'm feeling a bit too lazy to scroll 600 comments up and get your names right) have a point. Maybe I have been brainwashed by an ancient system designed to keep me under control, and I should now take a clearer look at the world." I speak out for those people, playa, and I really hope that I haven't spent irreplaceble hours of my life speaking to such non-existant beings. If so, perhaps someone like yourself, who have a lot of experience in that area, could tell me how to cope with it.
April 6, 2008 at 12:08 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
424now (anonymous) says...
HH
How exactly does,
"every bit of scientific evidence dug up in the past thousand years our so",
"point to the non-existence of a supreme deity."
?
April 6, 2008 at 4:17 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
emmalee (anonymous) says...
bandmama/ St. Thomas of Aquinas is known as the doctor of the church. I felt that maybe some education based on one of the great theologists who was also a scientist might add some flavor to h-hunters limited views on religion. I have a specific work for him to read in mind I'll get back to him when I find the title:).
playa46/ First I never suggested H-hunter visit a church, just that he expand his mind with some literature and (shocking I know) I
have known who h-hunter is for a very long time and actually he is someone very close to my heart.
~Again people things are not always as they seem.~
Not really up to arguing w/ anybody on this topic anymore. Really I had resigned to writing on this post but do enjoy the debate that has been ensuing. So now and then the temptation to comment gets me.
April 6, 2008 at 7:07 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
424now (anonymous) says...
A comment struck out at me from the blogosphere. As a writer and man of science that happens to have a faith in God I couldn't help but take a second look at the words HH had in his post.
"I should now take a clearer look at the world"
This statement is a great piece of writing. It truly applies to every single human that reads it.
Your position in the debate would seem to deny your own statement. You would seem to be a man of no little experience and a considerable intellect. How can you limit the possibilities you will allow yourself to consider by lumping a faith in God in with the actions of radical religion.
The tempest of a discussion on religion is predetermined by the presence of opposing belief systems being present. In that radical religion tends to condemn any other contradicting belief. All religion reinforce a belief in God. Elders in a majority of beliefs actually have conferences where the opportunity to discuss and exchange views with other religious leaders can take place. This tolerance leads to a peaceful coexistence. All these religions are tip toeing around the one unifying theme that flows through them all. A belief in God.
Every human being has a religion. Your stated views in this thread would lead me to believe you do not believe in a God. This is your religion. Your belief system is in the negative or lack there of God. Whats more in that you deny anyone the right to their belief system, your's is a radical religion. I close with another great piece of writing.
"There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of your philosophy"
April 7, 2008 at 12:11 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
oldskoolstmbt (anonymous) says...
emmalee...i have a wonderful life, but thank you for the suggestion...as for you, you should get a life outside of these forums..by the looks of the length of your posts, you have a lot of time to fill.
bandmama...i'm well aware that emmalee isn't the only one to have the need to cram the holy book, and you also suggest for only the person comments are directed to should respond?...yet, you turned around and had to put your input in comments directed at someone else..hmmmm
April 7, 2008 at 10:39 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
hippiehunter (anonymous) says...
424,
Forgive me, you are right. I was feeling a bit too hot and riled up and wasn't thinking completely straight. What I should have said is that every scientific fact in the past thousand years shows the inaccuracies of the bible, the only "evidence" pointing to the existence of a god, thus weakening the argument as a whole. The bible makes many extraordinary claims, all of which have been proven scientifically false. When all of these claims are actually proven wrong, then it makes me wonder about the truthfulness of its most amazing claim, which is of course the existence of an invisible guy in the clouds who enjoys watching us in the bathroom. As I said, you are right, science does not prove that there is no god. It does, however, give us more and more evidence each day that the one document that tells of his/her existence is flawed. Basically, if so many parts of this book are flawed, how can the argument that they build up to be any stronger? And please, I beg anyone that answers this, don't say that god made it so. I just might go crazier than I already am :).
April 7, 2008 at 5:26 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bandmama (anonymous) says...
oldskool-just a thought, perhaps some of us know each other outside this forum and respond here......like duh....
hippiehunter-I just wont say it it, but you know I am thinking it.
424- you are right, HH is a remarkable young person. I firmly believe HH is here to open our eyes to many things and will.
emmalee- Thanks for the study info....knowledge is a good thing.
playa46- Just want you to know I really respect your views!
April 7, 2008 at 5:47 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
emmalee (anonymous) says...
Hippiehunter/ Good Evening, As promised, I told you I'd get back to you when I found an accessible piece for you to read. Here is the web info:
http://www.catcheticsonline.comsummai...
This is the Summa Theologica, It is written for those well grounded in Aristotelian philosophy and logic. I realize that this text is most likely to be rejected by most relativists however it is a starting block to the challenge I posted for you. Hope you enjoy this piece it should be one to inspire great conversations when read with an open mind.
April 7, 2008 at 10:36 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
hippiehunter (anonymous) says...
424,
I do not limit the possibilities to myself by denying the existence of a god. On the contrary, I open up more. If we accept that there is a god, then we have the "answer" to how the universe was created, how it works, all that good stuff, and, as a result, we wouldn't really need to look more into the subject. Without this conclusion, however, we are left with a lot more questions than answers and we must find the solution to those problems. I say again, I do not limit myself. I open up more possibilities, all of which seem far more interesting and beautiful than the simple idea of "god made it happen." Also, there can be no truly peaceful coexistence in religion. You are somewhat right in saying that not all religious people are radical, but where there is religion, there will be radicals who think they are doing something in the name of their god. Even with this small population of radicals, it is still far to dangerous to have them in the world. Just look at al Queda. They are a very small part of the Islamic community yet they killed 3,000 American citizens in the name of Allah. Every religion has these (in my opinion) insane individuals, and these few have caused far too much destruction in the world for thousands of years to go unchecked. Also, I have no religion. The term "religion" refers to the belief and subsequent worship of a higher power, of which I have none. Plus, I would not call my beliefs "radical." Searching for different answers is not radical, it is human nature. Every child, from the time they can talk, looks for answers. Speaking of children, I have a question. No child believes in a god before they are told by their guardians that there is one, and up to that point they look for answers. Would classify infants or very young children as "radical"?
April 8, 2008 at 8:48 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
emmalee (anonymous) says...
H-hunter, Please keep in mind that; a radical need not be religious at all to be extreme. EVERY Human has something (or several things) that he/she feels so intensely about that the potential for unrest exists. Even in our world today much of the turmoil is fed by selfish motives, misdirected ideas and immature thinking masquerading as the religious.
April 8, 2008 at 9:12 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
424now (anonymous) says...
Here goes a little sbvorish pasting (I just made up a new word) on the definition of religion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion
The first part of the first sentence is what I want to point out. "A religion is a set of beliefs and practices" A religion does not have to be focused on a supernatural force. Most of them are but they do not encompass all religion. I stand by the statement that "Your stated views in this thread would lead me to believe you do not believe in a God. This is your religion."
Ergo, your denial of the (in your view) however improbable existence of a God is a limitation of the possible explanations of the multiverse and its origins. I am not saying you limit all possibilities just those that proffer an existence of God.
I choose to not only allow that there could be a God but to place my faith in that possibility.
I also take every infinitesimal piece of evidence presented to me in considering to validity of the Old and New testimate's of the Bible, Quran, Bhagavad-Gita, Dead Sea Scrolls,...As I stated earlier,
"I take all of those religious assertions for their moral value. Some of these assertions I accept on faith as correct and true. That is my faith, my choice and my decision."
As to my radical statement, how should one classify a belief that counts itself as the one true path to enlightenment?
April 8, 2008 at 1:09 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
playa46 (anonymous) says...
HippieHunter,
I find it hard to believe that you say that you consider the possibility of a god when each day, you clearly continue to disprove the fact of god. You have also told me that even in your dying breath, you will not admit to a god.
Any you also must have not read on of my last posts, it clrearly says that I have OPENED my mind to the possibility of thier not being a god.
I also admit that 9/11 and the crusades are fueled by religion, but we have learned much after the crusades and we accept other religions now and 9/11 wasn't done by xtians. I am not saying Islam is bad, I am saying that their beliefs caused this to happen. (There are Islamic people that do not kill.) You seem to be saying that because I am somewhat of a christian now, you think that I would walk up to your house with a gun and blast your brains out because of my belief. In fact, to be more specific, I am Lutheran, and we are against the past actions of the Roman Catholics.
And still, as I have said before, you pretty much cannot eliminate all christians. I still feel you are making me the enemy here, I am just contributing to a small debate we are having.
Emmalee,
Please, you are telling HippieHunter to basically convert to xtianity. The church is a big fraud because it teaches nothing but the bible. HH is right, the church is not open minded. It hardly talks about science and when it is backed down, it simply changed the subject. Think about it.
April 8, 2008 at 4:17 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
emmalee (anonymous) says...
Playa 46/ No conversion, just education. The truly religious did not cause most of the worlds upset it is done as I stated in earlier post by those masquerading under various religions for the effect it has on human emotions. How can you call yourself a Lutheran and then state that "the church is a big fraud..." in a later statement. It is people like you that have no true meaning of what the faith you claim teaches that cause war and unrest in our world. It is because of hypocrites like you that people like H-dog and H-hunter have such a bad impression of Christianity and other faiths. You are no more Lutheran than H-hunter based on your own verbiage. I would also wager that h-hunter actually has a better knowledge of Christianity than you do even though he claims not to be a believer. Maybe you should spend some one on one time with your minister and get your facts straight.
April 8, 2008 at 4:48 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Eve (anonymous) says...
HH, curious what is your families religious background?
April 10, 2008 at 3:55 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
hippiehunter (anonymous) says...
Playa,
Not only can you not read my posts accurately or correctly, it seems that you cannot read your own.
"I admit that I go to church and believe in God, but that doesn't mean I am open minded." -Playa46
I never said that just because you are Christian you are going to come up to my house and "blast my brains." I said that with every religion comes extremists and radicals, and even this small percentage is too much. Now, personally, I think that anyone who believes in a god is radical, seeing as how no one believes in a god when they are born; they have these beliefs forced into their heads until they believe that there is an invisible man in the clouds. Conveniently, whenever some scientific evidence comes along to prove that his existence is less and less probable, it is because he makes it like that, I guess just to screw with us. Seems kinda sadistic to me. Either that, or when your flawless God made the world, he was either pretty sloppy or just wasn't thinking of those kind of things in that ifinitely large brain of his/hers. Hmmmmm. For someone to believe those things instead of proven scientific fact seems pretty radical to me.
April 10, 2008 at 8:35 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
emmalee (anonymous) says...
H-hunter, Nobody believes in or knows about the scientific ideals when born either. A great thinker such as yourself should know that the only inherit traits we are born with are our natural survival instincts. Beyond our instincts EVERYTHING ELSE is a learned behavior. Learned behaviors are emulated and taught by imperfect beings (humans) which means that either scientific or not there is room for error. Are you reading (Summa Theologica) :)?So much to learn. Love you man.
April 10, 2008 at 9:36 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
meethinks (anonymous) says...
Eve- it is obvious, HH must have a 666 birthmark somewhere.........
how dare HH express on opinion about God, what is this, America or something?
April 11, 2008 at 3:50 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
playa46 (anonymous) says...
ohh whoops, sorry HH, i meant to say closed minded. Anyway, back to your other post.
"Now, personally, I think that anyone who believes in a god is radical, seeing as how no one believes in a god when they are born; they have these beliefs forced into their heads until they believe that there is an invisible man in the clouds."
Please, are you telling us that babies just instantly think "Hmm, Science is correct" and then somehow are converted to xtianity? When you say, know when believes in a god when they are born, it doesn't mean that they agree with science either. Each of us chooses are own paths. Yes, I admit that the church is a fraud, but it doesn't literally brainwash children. They still have their own beliefs, regardless of what the church tells them to do. For example, since the word of god is to not do drugs, why are there so many kids doing all sorts of them, yet are christian? Another example is that the word of god states no sex untill marrige, why are their so many teen pregnancys?
April 11, 2008 at 3:56 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
emmalee (anonymous) says...
46/ I see you have been doing some thinking. You are on the right track. Had a discussion with your clergy yet? Your post is much more thought out. "The Church" meaning the institution of God may or may not be a fraud. However, you are right that there are some churches run by people who are frauds. Back to square one here.... Selfish Motives. Keep searching for answers 46 you are getting warmer:)
April 11, 2008 at 6:05 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
emmalee (anonymous) says...
HH/and46/ The belief in God is not based on what you get out of that relationship(Even if he doesn't exist), that is a residual you get later. Your prayerful and contemplative actions are the side of you that might cause you to believe or ponder what you can do for others and how can you leave/make the world a better place. You must remove the "I" to see God and to find out what you believe. Then, even if you find he doesn't exist you are still a better being. This is the true basis of Christianity and many other religions. The problem is that most followers are not self actualized enough to forget their needs and care for others. So does it really matter whether or not we can prove "His" existence if you can be selfless? "Be radical" and care for others, be gracious and you might find the "God" you are looking for or you may not. Are you any less for searching? Remember in your search that you are human and therefor not infallible so the journey may be long (but the promise is worthwhile)
April 11, 2008 at 6:26 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jester1cp (anonymous) says...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uf9Eks...
April 12, 2008 at 7:45 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
emmalee (anonymous) says...
46/ (and I think H-hunter also) Earlier 46 asked about why people do things that are directly in opposition to their faiths etc..
There is a thing called Divine Providence and Free Will. Bare with me this will be long and probably use more than one post but I think you will find the info insightful in your quest for an understanding of faith. According to Scriptures, Creation is the work of the Holy Trinity. Having created His work, God is present in all His creatures. Saint Augustine wrote "In Him we live, and move and have our being". God is with us to uphold us and sustain us,enabling us to act and helping us to achieve salvation. Believing that recognizing our total dependence on our Creator is a source of wisdom, joy and confidence.
Stay with me here.......Creation is not perfect, remember it is a journey.
God guides his creatures on His journey by means of divine providence. This is His way of governing creation. Scripture teaches that this providence is concrete and immediate, and that God cares for all, from the greatest to the smallest, here and now. Jesus taught His followers not to worry:"So do not worry and say, 'What are we to eat or drink or wear?...Your Heavenly Father knows that you need them all. But you need to first seek the Kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things will be given you besides"(Mathew6:31-33)
Keep reading as this is important information to the rest of this story which I hope will answer your question. Cont.....
April 12, 2008 at 9:21 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
emmalee (anonymous) says...
Last post cont....
It requires humility and faith to begin to feel or draw close to God's power. The Virgin Mary modeled this faith with her words:"Nothing will be impossible with God."
To be faithful one needs to accept that God's power is mysterious. and we don't always understand His ways.Human beings often question why God; who created the world and cares for everything in it, allows evil and suffering to exist. The answer to this complicated question lies in the fact that God also granted Human beings the free will to act on their own, to make their own decisions and to interact with each other in ways in which they choose. Physical evil, suffering, disease, and natural calamities exist because human beings and angels, both both intelligent creatures with free will, have the power to make choices and hence go astray.
It is true that through out history that God Himself has allowed suffering in the world~ He even allowed His own Son to suffer and be crucified. However, the Church teaches that God, through His providence, can conquer suffering and bring good from evil, even a moral evil caused by His creatures. From the murder of Christ, caused by the sins of human beings, God brought about His glorification and the redemption of Human kind.
The qualities of God as revealed in the Old Testament are mercy and graciousness.
He asks that these be the qualities that we as Christians and as His creations try to exemplify.
`jester/ The video you posted is one of great shame and also of great pride and beauty all in one. May we learn from our mistakes. Peace be with you :)
April 12, 2008 at 9:46 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
playa46 (anonymous) says...
emmalee,
While I agree with you on the statement that god governs all people through the holy spirit or ghost, let me ask you this:
There are people in this world who are athiests/agnostics and people who commit sucide. According to scripture, you instantly go to hell if this happens. Since God controlls everything their is, did he specifically decided something like "I think I will make this guy do everything against scripture and then send them straight to hell"? Here is another reason why I think the church is a fraud. Since the Roman Catholics did some things that changed the wording of the Bible, is it possible that when other branches struck out of the catholics, they must have fallen under the same spell? I just simply cannot believe that God has total control over us, although I do believe in the holy spirit dwells within every one of us.
(P.S., thnxs for the kind words!!!! :)
April 12, 2008 at 9:58 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
emmalee (anonymous) says...
46/ I believe that the answer to your question about people doing things in direct opposition to scripture has the words of "Free Will" written all over it. Don't misunderstand this statement as being harsh but know that this is the "Key". The "key" being that God did not create evil, all He created is good. Man creates evil through free will. Man chooses evil through his own actions and ONLY through Gods merciful heart are we allowed to humbly redeem ourselves. PLEASE discuss this issue with your clergy or a minister of your choice because one can not accept God as the merciful and mysterious creator that he is with out a full understanding of this concept. It is good that you have questions but seek answers till you hear the "Truth". As for the second part of your post, I was not aware of the Catholics changing scriptures. I checked with both a Lutheran Minister and a Catholic Priest on this (who are friends of mine) and I am curious as to your reference for this. If you would let me know how you believe this to be true then I can more precisely answer your questions on this subject. As for going to Hell ALL of us no matter how holy we try to live should probably be sent to hell. It is only through God's kind and merciful heart that we are given hope of redemption. He lives with in us but does not control our actions.It is through our actions that we choose to see and know Him. You and h-hunter are truly on a pilgrimage of the heart. Ask questions not just of me but ask many different clergy and people and most of all ask yourself daily. Getting to know Him is the hardest and most rewarding thing you will ever do in this life and it will need to be done over and over again. The Truth is always worth it. Truth sometimes makes people uncomfortable because it is what it is: "TRUTH".
p.s. Have you ever read any of C.S. Lewis? Give some consideration to the book, "The Four Loves" by C.S. Lewis. It will take you on a miraculous journey into the mirrors of the human soul :)
April 13, 2008 at 2:55 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
playa46 (anonymous) says...
Emmalee,
First of all, I do not go to a clergy or minister for answers. In fact, when I look for answers, the church is probably the last place I would go to.
While on the subject, my last post was incorrect. The Catholic church did not change scripture, however it did do quite a bit to xtianity. If you want good examples, watch the movie "Luther" or some movie called that. It shows strong examples on how the Catholic Church poisined the minds of christians to buying things in order to do to heaven or having a strict list of rules. When people branched out of the Roman Catholic Chirch, we all based different religion upon THEIR teachings.
The Church in a way still performs this, such as giving bibles to schools, giving papers or bibles to children during halloween, and let us not forget Jehova's Witnesses. Why does the church even bother? Some people will never accept God in their hearts.
As for my going to hell statement, the reason why God gives us free will is because HE HAS FORSEEN EVERYTHING. So this points back to the bible and the church. Did God just create us and decide "You go to heaven, you don't, you go to heaven, you don't". The bible, states that no one who believes that Hayzues if our savior, they will not enter heaven. It also states over and over and over again his undying love for us. This pretty much counteracts each other. I believe that on judgement day, we are all givin a second chance. It also says that every knee will bow before him. This is probably because they all have a second chance.
As for the book...................................................no.
April 13, 2008 at 8:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
emmalee (anonymous) says...
46/ Wow!. Apparently I underestimated how much misinformation you have in your soul. I am sorry that you did not get more meaning on the subject of free will but you totally missed my point. Since it is my understanding that you are still very young, and have a lot to learn about life. Might I suggest you sit down with one or both of your parents and speak with them about the topics that we discussed. Share your posts and mine too if you wish and maybe they can directly answer your questions with a reference to the faith that they are raising you and in a frame that applies directly to you. I've enjoyed talking to you but I think that you need information on a more personal basis than any of these blogs can offer. I wish you peace and luck in your journey to find what you are looking for :).
April 13, 2008 at 10:37 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
emmalee (anonymous) says...
H-hunter/ Haven't heard from you in a bit :) Of course you know how to reach me if you have further questions. I am going to stop posting on this for a while as my posts were meant to answer your questions and we kinda went astray. Have a great week,
Peace man :)
April 13, 2008 at 10:43 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Eve (anonymous) says...
First things first... methinks & hh, didn't mean to offend you in asking about your religious background.
bmama, you are right information is good it is sad that people don't realize this sooner in life.
hh, even though I don't know your faith background I admire your zeal for knowledge and your ability to understand what is given you.
player46, There is an old saying that says that if you don't stand for anything; you stand for nothing at all. I must agree w/"em" that you are not understanding the info you need. It's a shame that you won't go to your minister or another source for that help. You need knowledge to know where you stand on religion and it's a shame that it sounds like "em" has given up feeding you really good stuff.
em, hope you decide to write later, I started Lewis today for the second time and I never read it w/ the image you gave.
thanks.
April 13, 2008 at 11:01 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
hippiehunter (anonymous) says...
Playa,
Once again, that is not what I said. I was making the point that someone called me radical for my lack of faith in a higher deity, and my subsequent questioning of the workings of the universe. Children also have these questions and this same lack of faith; are they considered radical as well?
Eve,
Don't worry about it, I wasn't offended. My mother was raised Roman Catholic and my father's parents both had very strong Protestant beliefs, though my dad became an athiest/agnostic pretty early in life. My mom, while still believing in a higher power, does not have any specific religion; she just thinks that something must be out there.
emmalee,
I see what you mean about God being really kind and merciful in the Old Testament. Let's see, there was flooding the world and killing about 99% of the population just to make Noah's faith a little stronger, that was cool. There was also how he kicked Adam and Eve out of Paradise because they ate an apple, how he killed all the firstborn sons in Egypt just to prove a point, and endorsing mass genocide just for the hell of it. Yeah, he seems like a great guy. I'd definitely want to get my morals from him.
April 14, 2008 at 9:36 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ritzbitz (anonymous) says...
Hippiehunter,
This kind of thinking is quite refreshing in an unstable, war-ridden time such as today. In today's society It is all to frequent that leaders make decisions based on the country's majority religion. Futhermore the practice of one' s faith is perfectly fine and dandy, but when it affects others in any unsatisfactory or negitive way there is something very wrong with this. Too often in today's society the majority religion is the one getting the social and economic benefits, this doesn't just go for islam but for America, in fact I beleive that America is actually where this sort of thinking happens most. So thnk you hippiehunter your insightful thinking has ispires me. I hope to someday have the pleasure of meeting you.
April 14, 2008 at 9:50 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
thalgard (inactive user) says...
to all...patriarchal religions are all about control...the lies they tell you are all about control over what goes in and out of women's vaginas...the catholic church is a run by a pile of pedophiles and mass murderers who are still trying to wipe out any cultural group that differs from there own...quit being sheep...think for yourselves!
April 15, 2008 at 6:54 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Eve (anonymous) says...
ritz, and hh, I am not a Christian but my heritage is based on the beliefs of the American Indians (my grandparents). You are right that there is much to take in an offensive way in organized religion. However to be fair I must state that I was raised in a Christian/Jewish household (ya, I was messed up)and I have studied several religions both in the states and abroad (to find my believe basis) and there is so much in the foundations of these practices (like scripture) that can be taken out of context and used in a negative manner. I think that "em" had a valid point about selfishness and when it gets involved at whatever level or in whatever faith things get ugly. hh, you are insightful but only when it involves proving someone else's faith foundation wrong and this way of thinking has through out history proven to cause much unrest. There are gray areas in life and that's ok. You don't have to believe what someone else does for it to be right or wrong. That is like telling someone else what they think..... no can do sorry.
April 14, 2008 at 2:42 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
playa46 (anonymous) says...
Eve,
So what you're saying is that I am wrong for standing up for what I believe. After all, I am not saying I don't understand Emmalee's statements, I simple keep asking her questions. Why is it that I am suddenly the bad guy here?
As for your second statement, I happen to discuss this debate with my confirmation teacher (yes, I am confirmed.) But if you were to READ my later posts, it clearly says why I do not agree with the church. Next one:
"There is an old saying that says that if you don't stand for anything; you stand for nothing at all." Please, are you telling me that people such as Martin Luther King Jr. was sided by white people the entire time? People in Religion such as Martin Luther were not sided at all, yet you see them still striving to great accomplishments.
Emmalee,
I hope you return soon, I enjoyed our little discussions on religion. You changed my ways of thinking, although I do admit I was a little harsh on my last post. Looking back at it, I do realize that perhaps I do need more reaserch, yet I do discuss these questions with my parents and they (at times) agree with me. And thanks for the kind words you gave to me when I didn't return the favor. God bless! :)
HH,
So all of hunterdog's posts were erased eh? That's harsh. Anyway, I think I see a flaw in your ideas. Perhaps one of the reasons you are not very accepting of the teaching of xtianity is beacuse humans always like to be in control. (I know you know I see you act like this at school.) But what happens when you believe in god? You lose that control and must accept something beyong your power. Your thoughts?
April 14, 2008 at 4:59 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
424now (anonymous) says...
Whoa!
What did HH do to deserve complete censure?
I realize that this is SP&T's playing field and they get to make the rules but WOW! To completely erase an identity gives one the Willie's.
Have I mentioned how much I like SP&T today? If not let me just say what a great forum you have here. I like all the poignant and provocative articles.
don't delete me....
April 15, 2008 at 2:28 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Eve (anonymous) says...
player46, You are never wrong for standing up for what you believe. You should be proud of this character trait. What I meant was that, I am not sure you understand some of the posts here as well as you think. No, I do not think you are stupid I just think that sometimes you jump to respond before fully educating yourself (I believe others have mentioned this to you). Sometimes you make contradictory statements in the same post about your own beliefs which tells me you are still searching for too many answers to have confirmed in a church you appear to not fully understand and believe in. I have no problem with Martin Luther or for that matter the Pope or Billy Graham or whoever almost all churches do have some great leaders in them. It is ok to be searching for answers in fact I would encourage it. Try not to make such harsh judgments about things that you yourself have doubts about. It is sad that you confirmed when you still seem to doubt some of the aspects of the church you defend. I myself confirmed do to pressure from my parents and later found the faith they chose for me didn't fit who I was. I am not saying that you should disobey your parents or that you may not remain Lutheran I am just saying "learn more".
"Who you are is a gift from God, Who you become is your gift to Him"
April 15, 2008 at 2:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
playa46 (anonymous) says...
Eve,
Yes I do jump to conclusions, (a lot) but I suppose that is who I am. What's wrong with being confirmed and still having doubts about the church? Not to be mean or anything, but I hear the same stuff over and over again from the church. Things such as "Hayzues loves me" and "God is our savior". When I ask questions, people seem to always go back to one idea: faith. I attend church every sunday to show devotion to god, yet everywhere I go, people seem to do the same thing: try and convert me even further. That is all I have to say.
April 15, 2008 at 5:11 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
hippiehunter (anonymous) says...
Playa,
That's exactly the problem. I am very disturbed by the way that so many people are so willing to accept how little control over their lives. To me, that shows low self-esteem. Don't they usually treat that with therapy? If people do indeed "lose control", which is absolutely true, then it just goes to show how the church has tricked you into accepting that you are nothing and that you have to give into the will of a higher power. Incidentally, the only way that you can communicate with this higher power is through the church, and then they tell you what God wants you to do. Sounds a little suspiscious to me. Why doesn't God just talk to you himself? I can only think of two explanations: one, he doesn't care all that much; or two, the church made up a clever ruse that helps them tell people what to do with there lives. Now, some people, such as our President, say that God himself talks to them. There's a name for that too. When someone hears and sees things that only they themselves can see, it's called schizophrenia. It seems that either people are being lied to, or they are insane.
April 16, 2008 at 8:40 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
hippiehunter (anonymous) says...
424,
I believe hunterdog made a comment about the Pope being a Nazi sympathizer in his youth, which he was. I guess someone was "offended" by that sort of thing. Funny, I would like to think that most people get over offensive language or truths by the second grade. Then again, I would also like to think that most people have the common sense enough not to believe in an invisible man in the clouds, but there you go....
April 16, 2008 at 9:36 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
424now (anonymous) says...
Oh it was hunterdog I thought it was you. Either way it is a humbling thing to see a personality completely erased from the blogosphere.
SP&T Staff
The sense of logic in the threads gets destroyed by removal of a participant. The continuity of the thread is disrupted. Is it not possible to remove the offensive post and delete the account without removing every single post they ever made?
April 16, 2008 at 11:05 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
playa46 (anonymous) says...
HH,
This does sound wierd, but praying to god shows faith. And also waiting for your prayer to be answered if out of faith. Basically, God waits for faith, he may not answer your prayer as quick as you want him to, but he hopes he trusts you.
And as for your other statement, people find it conferting knowing your going somewhere great, regardless of what you do. Which is why I ask you again why you care about religion. I can see you getting angry about people making a claim, but there are some people (like me) who think there is something out there and that's it. I too get mad when people constantly try to spread the word of god, but I guess sometimes, we must say "this is what I think, and this is what you think, I am glad we got that out of the way." But that's just me.
April 16, 2008 at 9:27 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
emmalee (anonymous) says...
player46/ Congratulations, I think in the first part of your last post you conveyed that you are starting to understand. Keep thinking deeply and asking questions about the spreading the word of God part. Some people are overbearing in this aspect. However, if know one spoke "His" words or on "His" behalf where would your security in God be ? There is an older country song I can't remember the title that has the sediments of "what if he quit trying, what if nobody cared, wouldn't you quit trying if nobody believed in you" (this is not the exact quote but..close".
Keep trying, keep believing, keep learning, in everything you do. Live Passionately.
April 17, 2008 at 10:27 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Eve (anonymous) says...
I was thinking about why we choose to believe in a higher being than ourselves and about heaven or life after etc.. I am not sure if I believe for myself or for those I care about. Let's face it most of us really don't relish the idea of ourselves, our mom, dad or other loved one becoming a maggot habitrail and lawn fertilizer. I think it is just comforting to want to and look for something more in life (or after if you will). So regardless of what faith you choose, I think we all lead more insightful and purpose driven lives when we find ourselves accountable to a being that is higher. So I'll take my chances that science may prove this wrong but IF science is wrong I pity those who didn't at least try a search for truth.
April 17, 2008 at 8:26 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
playa46 (anonymous) says...
Thanks emmalee, your words have made feel closer to God.
Eve,
You've made me think about this as well, I shall look into this. But.........
I AM GOING TO ENGLAND HAHAHAHAHA. SEE YOU GUYS IN A WEEK. I could do some reaserch while I am there.
April 18, 2008 at 7:20 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Hadleyburg_Press (anonymous) says...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20080418/...
April 18, 2008 at 3:05 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
424now (anonymous) says...
Oh yeah?
http://www.law.cornell.edu/constituti...
#1
Key Phrase,
"an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"
They said Government can not control religion. This a good thing. The inverse however holds some dire prospects. When the Religion is the Government Very bad things follow.
However...
When Men who hold their religion as a guiding light in their lives try to apply a high moral reasoning to legislature some good can occur. It is when tenant becomes statute that we should bar the doors or head for higher ground.
April 21, 2008 at 5:03 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
katrinkakelly (anonymous) says...
No Christianese for me but the fact is:
10x10x10x10x10x10x10x10x10x10 people in the book of Kings?!
Uhhuh............................true, true!
April 22, 2008 at 9:34 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
corduroy (anonymous) says...
I have NO clue what you are all arguing about here.. but I found it very amusing that before this post I'm making it states there are 666 posts
Can't we stop now and move this over to the forums instead??
April 22, 2008 at 12:28 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
oldskoolstmbt (anonymous) says...
actually hunter dog made the 666th post...but for some reason he has been removed (again)...it seems as though these blogs are one sided...can anyone tell me why HD's posts are entirely removed????
April 22, 2008 at 1:23 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
424now (anonymous) says...
Complete banishment to the netherworld of the Pilots blogosphere.
April 22, 2008 at 4:40 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Joe_Mama (anonymous) says...
Joe thinks it's bordering on facism when a newspaper, who should be committed to the 2nd amendment, chooses to censor these forums. Before he was removed, along with all his comments, Joe read what appeared to be Hunterdog's last post, which stated that the Pope was a member of the Hitler Youth during WWII. Maybe that's what did it.
However, Joe agrees with Hunterdog that if you're an adult and you have an imaginary friend, there is more than a little delusion involved.
April 23, 2008 at 9:19 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Joe_Mama (anonymous) says...
Joe agrees that faith in an unprovable belief does not instantly equate to delusion. Joe thinks that it takes a couple of seconds for his mind to equate it to delusion, but delusion it appears to be.
April 25, 2008 at 4:52 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
steamboatsconscience (anonymous) says...
I think Jimmy Buffett said it the best
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wHs9Y...
"You know I was talking to my friend Desdemona the other day she
runs this space station and bake shop down near Boomtown. She told
me that human beings are flawed individuals. The cosmic bakers
took us out of the oven a little too early. And that's the
reason we're as crazy as we are and I believe it."
"Religion! Religion! Oh, there's a thin line between Saturday
night and Sunday morning. Here we go now.
Alright, alter boys."
Mea Culpa Mea Culpa Mea Maxima Culpa
Mea Culpa Mea Culpa Mea Maxima Culpa
Where's the church, who took the steeple
Religion is in the hands of some crazy-ass people
Television preachers with bad hair and dimples
The god's honest truth is it's not that simple
It's the Buddhist in you, it's the Pagan in me
It's the Muslim in him, she's Catholic ain't she?
It's the born again look its the WASP and the Jew
Tell me what's goin on, I ain't gotta clue!
And guess what?
None of you all do either, and if you think you do, you are nuttier than a fruitcake.
April 25, 2008 at 9:59 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
424now (anonymous) says...
I found a quote site. ergo
"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."
Galileo Galilee
"One man's theology is another man's belly laugh."
Robert A. Heinlein
"It's wonderful to climb the liquid mountains of the sky. Behind me and before me is God and I have no fears."
Helen Keller
No one can know if in fact there is a God. Some have taken their personal experience in near death as a sign that something occurs after we die. This still gives no quantifiable proof of God's existence. I have not spoken to God nor has he taken the time to speak with me directly and if you believe the bible (the old testimate) that conversation would destroy me with the first uttered syllable.
However,
You have no right to discriminate against me on the basis of my belief in God. In much the same way that I have no right to discriminate against you because you do not.
Religious freedom, it's a beautiful thing.
"All theory is against freedom of the will; all experience for it."
Samuel Johnson
April 25, 2008 at 12:57 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
424now (anonymous) says...
And my parrot flew south years ago.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0---Q...
April 25, 2008 at 1:01 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Hadleyburg_Press (anonymous) says...
Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear.
Thomas Jefferson
April 25, 2008 at 3:18 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Hadleyburg_Press (anonymous) says...
They [the clergy] believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly; for I have sworn upon the altar of god, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough, too, in their opinion.
-Thomas Jefferson to Dr. Benjamin Rush, Sept. 23, 1800
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT., Jan. 1, 1802
History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.
-Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813.
The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, January 24, 1814
Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814
April 25, 2008 at 3:23 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bandmama (anonymous) says...
oldskool- FYI, Hunterdog was banished because he honestly pointed out that the current Pope was once enrolled in Hitlers School of...............
seems that that offended someone. sure does make it hard to have an honest open discussion sometimes when someone throws out a FACT instead of the many opinions....we must be oh so careful what we write, someone forgot about that little freedom of speech thing....I seem to recall it had something to do with something called rights or amendments or something like that. I hate to be specific... I may get booted.........
April 25, 2008 at 5:33 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
carel (anonymous) says...
Can we puleeeeeeeeeez get off of this subject??? It's been discuss way too long!
April 26, 2008 at 5:30 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
424now (anonymous) says...
carel,
Is that pronounced like Kal El? Ca Rel hmm whoops back to the subject at hand,
A thread devoted to the discussion of religion, faith and/or the lack there of.
April 26, 2008 at 8:22 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Joe_Mama (anonymous) says...
Joe is not a fan of discrimination, but however, since there is no evidence that empirically supports the existence of a supernatural being, he thinks that belief in said being is the chimpanzee in us talking.
Joe has no problem with delusion, just keep it to yourself, out of Joe's schools and Joe's government.
April 27, 2008 at 8:53 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Joe_Mama (anonymous) says...
Joe wholly supports freedom fighter/writer Hunterdog, and misses his posts terribly.
April 27, 2008 at 12:11 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
424now (anonymous) says...
Hey Joe,
Agreed, and how do you feel about the pledge of allegiance?
April 28, 2008 at 11:09 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Joe_Mama (anonymous) says...
Joe thinks it's just fine to subscribe to a "mission statement", as he would describe the pledge, however, the addition of the "under god" part was possibly a bad choice for an addition in the 40's or 50's or whenever it was added.
Joe has no problem with patriotism, but thinks that if you need to repeat a mantra over and over, you probably didn't get the essence of it in the first place.
April 28, 2008 at 2:32 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jester1cp (anonymous) says...
Dont take for granted your life in the boat.You sit on your computer and write stupid little comments about this and that.All the while the Israel people and there children have to suffer this kind of hell.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJ5Ctz...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_NNfq...
April 29, 2008 at 7:51 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
424now (anonymous) says...
Hey Joe!
How about the "In god we trust" stamped and printed on our currency? You could note the absence of the words "Jesus" or "Christian" from those. Simply indicating that as a young country when some of the best thinking was done for the establishment of our great nation, the men involved were by and large deeply religious. They were mainly Christian to be exact. Do you believe simply due to their lack of information they chose to incorporate this symbolism or is it that they were placating the radically religious among them?
This is the fun part,
Owing to the symbolism permitting our society to date and allowing for the radical element that will occur in any model,
(Imagine the Quakers bent on enforcing their views on those around them)
As history has shown the administration of religion has kept piece in many ways. It is the allowance of the radically religious to have there way that has lead to the barbaric mistreatment of humans throughout the ages.
Do you suppose this generic reference to simply "God" had any intentionally subduing effect on the portion of the population that was radically religious?
April 29, 2008 at 12:40 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
424now (anonymous) says...
oops "permeating" not permitting
April 29, 2008 at 12:42 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
424now (anonymous) says...
K so Joe isn't as omnipresent as I thought.
April 30, 2008 at 3:23 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Hadleyburg_Press (anonymous) says...
The motto IN GOD WE TRUST was placed on United States coins largely because of the increased religious sentiment existing during the Civil War. Secretary of the Treasury Salmon P. Chase received many appeals from devout persons throughout the country, urging that the United States recognize the Deity on United States coins. From Treasury Department records, it appears that the first such appeal came in a letter dated November 13, 1861. It was written to Secretary Chase by Rev. M. R. Watkinson, Minister of the Gospel from Ridleyville, Pennsylvania, and read:
Dear Sir: You are about to submit your annual report to the Congress respecting the affairs of the national finances.
One fact touching our currency has hitherto been seriously overlooked. I mean the recognition of the Almighty God in some form on our coins.
You are probably a Christian. What if our Republic were not shattered beyond reconstruction? Would not the antiquaries of succeeding centuries rightly reason from our past that we were a heathen nation? What I propose is that instead of the goddess of liberty we shall have next inside the 13 stars a ring inscribed with the words PERPETUAL UNION; within the ring the allseeing eye, crowned with a halo; beneath this eye the American flag, bearing in its field stars equal to the number of the States united; in the folds of the bars the words GOD, LIBERTY, LAW.
This would make a beautiful coin, to which no possible citizen could object. This would relieve us from the ignominy of heathenism. This would place us openly under the Divine protection we have personally claimed. From my hearth I have felt our national shame in disowning God as not the least of our present national disasters.
To you first I address a subject that must be agitated.
As a result, Secretary Chase instructed James Pollock, Director of the Mint at Philadelphia, to prepare a motto, in a letter dated November 20, 1861:
Dear Sir: No nation can be strong except in the strength of God, or safe except in His defense. The trust of our people in God should be declared on our national coins.
You will cause a device to be prepared without unnecessary delay with a motto expressing in the fewest and tersest words possible this national recognition.
April 30, 2008 at 3:29 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Hadleyburg_Press (anonymous) says...
continued,
It was found that the Act of Congress dated January 18, 1837, prescribed the mottoes and devices that should be placed upon the coins of the United States. This meant that the mint could make no changes without the enactment of additional legislation by the Congress. In December 1863, the Director of the Mint submitted designs for new one-cent coin, two-cent coin, and three-cent coin to Secretary Chase for approval. He proposed that upon the designs either OUR COUNTRY; OUR GOD or GOD, OUR TRUST should appear as a motto on the coins. In a letter to the Mint Director on December 9, 1863, Secretary Chase stated:
I approve your mottoes, only suggesting that on that with the Washington obverse the motto should begin with the word OUR, so as to read OUR GOD AND OUR COUNTRY. And on that with the shield, it should be changed so as to read: IN GOD WE TRUST.
The Congress passed the Act of April 22, 1864. This legislation changed the composition of the one-cent coin and authorized the minting of the two-cent coin. The Mint Director was directed to develop the designs for these coins for final approval of the Secretary. IN GOD WE TRUST first appeared on the 1864 two-cent coin.
Another Act of Congress passed on March 3, 1865. It allowed the Mint Director, with the Secretary's approval, to place the motto on all gold and silver coins that "shall admit the inscription thereon." Under the Act, the motto was placed on the gold double-eagle coin, the gold eagle coin, and the gold half-eagle coin. It was also placed on the silver dollar coin, the half-dollar coin and the quarter-dollar coin, and on the nickel three-cent coin beginning in 1866. Later, Congress passed the Coinage Act of February 12, 1873. It also said that the Secretary "may cause the motto IN GOD WE TRUST to be inscribed on such coins as shall admit of such motto."
April 30, 2008 at 3:30 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Hadleyburg_Press (anonymous) says...
continued,
The use of IN GOD WE TRUST has not been uninterrupted. The motto disappeared from the five-cent coin in 1883, and did not reappear until production of the Jefferson nickel began in 1938. Since 1938, all United States coins bear the inscription. Later, the motto was found missing from the new design of the double-eagle gold coin and the eagle gold coin shortly after they appeared in 1907. In response to a general demand, Congress ordered it restored, and the Act of May 18, 1908, made it mandatory on all coins upon which it had previously appeared. IN GOD WE TRUST was not mandatory on the one-cent coin and five-cent coin. It could be placed on them by the Secretary or the Mint Director with the Secretary's approval.
The motto has been in continuous use on the one-cent coin since 1909, and on the ten-cent coin since 1916. It also has appeared on all gold coins and silver dollar coins, half-dollar coins, and quarter-dollar coins struck since July 1, 1908.
A law passed by the 84th Congress (P.L. 84-140) and approved by the President on July 30, 1956, the President approved a Joint Resolution of the 84th Congress, declaring IN GOD WE TRUST the national motto of the United States. IN GOD WE TRUST was first used on paper money in 1957, when it appeared on the one-dollar silver certificate. The first paper currency bearing the motto entered circulation on October 1, 1957. The Bureau of Engraving and Printing (BEP) was converting to the dry intaglio printing process. During this conversion, it gradually included IN GOD WE TRUST in the back design of all classes and denominations of currency.
April 30, 2008 at 3:32 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Hadleyburg_Press (anonymous) says...
lastly,
As a part of a comprehensive modernization program the BEP successfully developed and installed new high-speed rotary intaglio printing presses in 1957. These allowed BEP to print currency by the dry intaglio process, 32 notes to the sheet. One-dollar silver certificates were the first denomination printed on the new high-speed presses. They included IN GOD WE TRUST as part of the reverse design as BEP adopted new dies according to the law. The motto also appeared on one-dollar silver certificates of the 1957-A and 1957-B series.
BEP prints United States paper currency by an intaglio process from engraved plates. It was necessary, therefore, to engrave the motto into the printing plates as a part of the basic engraved design to give it the prominence it deserved.
One-dollar silver certificates series 1935, 1935-A, 1935-B, 1935-C, 1935-D, 1935-E, 1935-F, 1935-G, and 1935-H were all printed on the older flat-bed presses by the wet intaglio process. P.L. 84-140 recognized that an enormous expense would be associated with immediately replacing the costly printing plates. The law allowed BEP to gradually convert to the inclusion of IN GOD WE TRUST on the currency. Accordingly, the motto is not found on series 1935-E and 1935-F one-dollar notes. By September 1961, IN GOD WE TRUST had been added to the back design of the Series 1935-G notes. Some early printings of this series do not bear the motto. IN GOD WE TRUST appears on all series 1935-H one-dollar silver certificates
-United States Department of the Treasury-
April 30, 2008 at 3:34 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Hadleyburg_Press (anonymous) says...
424now,
Just for the record, earlier currency had the secular motto, "E Pluribus Unum" ("One from many"), which was Jefferson, Franklin and Adam's suggestion. That slogan was formaly adopted in 1782, five years before the Constitutional convention of 1787.
April 30, 2008 at 3:43 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
424now (anonymous) says...
HP,
You have deftly and admirably demonstated that you moniker is well deserved.
With your information which stands up to research the questioons I posed is still a valid one.
Was the phrase included as a consesion to the deeply or radically religious elements in order to align them with a young country?
April 30, 2008 at 5:22 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Hadleyburg_Press (anonymous) says...
Yours remains a good question. I doubt the answer is yes in terms of intent. However, that may have been a secondary cultural effect and warrants more study.
April 30, 2008 at 5:53 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seven (anonymous) says...
Bottom line on this DAY OF PRAYER
By free choice
With God all things are possible.
Notice what is offered by those w/o God-----nothing because they have NOTHING.
For those forgiven a new reborn life. Its indescribable. Notice those w/o God have never got to see anyone ever healed, seen amazing miracles, felt the presence of Angels walk before them and behind them, witnessed a precious soul except Jesus into their life---oh yeh--- it means nothing to this world but every Angel in heaven stops and rejoices when ONE soul is saved.
Many have tried to decieve. Everyone gets their chance to seek facts for themselves. Remember whosoever can call upon the Lord just as you are. Denomination means nothing. He will call up one body. We are all equals in His eyes. Only people separate people. God loves each one of us.
The same folks write postings to rob others and attempt to sway thought. The hope is to make everyone as miserable as they are.
Heres the best part. This article was prayed about by many locals. The annointing of God was placed upon it to reach those in need. The posting site has been visited by some really unique critters of darkness. They now cannot stay away but do not know why. They to feel a spiritual presence but are not allowed yet to see it is the Holy Spirit of God. Jesus said when He left that He would leave His Holy Spirit as a comforter. He is real and I say to You reading, by my witness the Spirit is real.
Only the eyes being called too will be reading this. All others have long gone no one will read this that is not suppose too.
Know that He is more real than life. As long as You have breathe in your body You have hope and a chance to consider Him into your heart and soul. Joy unspeakable and full of glory.
May God Bless You
May 1, 2008 at 9:15 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Hadleyburg_Press (anonymous) says...
Seven,
I'm actually pretty happy and I think you ment to say accept jesus instead of except jesus.
Have a great night.
Sincerely,
H_P
May 1, 2008 at 9:46 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Joe_Mama (anonymous) says...
Wheeeew !
May 2, 2008 at 10:23 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Hadleyburg_Press (anonymous) says...
Unique critters of darkness? I think we are being called Lemurs...
I think they are finally getting it Joe_Mama!
Lemurs' Evolutionary History May Shed Light On Our Own
ScienceDaily (Feb. 27, 2008) - After swabbing the cheeks of more than 200 lemurs and related primates to collect their DNA, researchers at the Duke Institute for Genome Sciences & Policy (IGSP) and Duke Lemur Center now have a much clearer picture of their evolutionary family tree.
Found in nature only on the island nation of Madagascar, off Africa's southeastern coast, lemurs and their close relatives the lorises represent the sister lineage to all other primates. And that makes lemurs key to understanding what distinguishes us and the rest of our primate cousins from all other animals, according to Julie Horvath, a post-doctoral researcher in the IGSP.
"If we find a trait or characteristic shared between lemurs and other primates, it can tell us what is or isn't primate-specific and when those traits arose," said Horvath, who works in the laboratory of IGSP director Huntington Willard.
The new "phylogenomic toolkit" the researchers developed will also play into conservation efforts aimed to save the critically endangered lemurs, by helping to define the number of existing species, said David Weisrock, a post-doctoral researcher working with Duke Lemur Center Director Anne Yoder.
Scientists uncover evolutionary relationships among species based on similarities and differences in their genetic codes. The increasing number of fully sequenced genomes available for major evolutionary groups has allowed resolution of relationships that had been considered unmanageable before.
But except for humans' close evolutionary ties to chimpanzees, many of the relationships among other apes, monkeys and pre-monkeys called prosimians have remained somewhat murky, according to Horvath.
To find out where Madagascar's lemurs fit in, the Duke team first needed to develop the tools for comparing sequences from the many lemur species to one another, and to those of other primates including humans.
The researchers identified stretches of DNA sequence held in common between the genomes of the human, the ringtailed lemur and the mouse lemur. These "conserved sequences" served as primers, allowing them to sample comparable bits of sequence across the genomes of the various primate species.
May 2, 2008 at 12:15 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Hadleyburg_Press (anonymous) says...
continued,
Their analysis confirmed that the first to branch off from the rest of the lemurs, some 66 million years ago, was the aye-aye--a nocturnal primate that taps on trees with its fingers to listen for insects inside, making it Madagascar's version of a woodpecker. They also resolved the relationships among species within the remaining four evolutionary lineages, which includes a diverse cast of characters: the sifakas, named for the hissing "shee-fak" sound they make; the sportive lemurs, which are strictly nocturnal; the mouse lemurs, the smallest of all living primates; and the many so-called "true lemurs," including the blue-eyed black lemur (one of only three blue-eyed primates in the world) and the ringtailed lemur, which is often found in zoos.
"By throwing this much data at the problem, we have absolutely confirmed, beyond any statistical doubt, that the spectacular array of lemurs all descended from a single ancestral species," said Yoder, noting that lemurs account for about 20 percent of primate species and live on less than one percent of the earth's surface. "It further highlights the importance of Madagascar as a cradle for biodiversity."
The study lays the groundwork for doing future studies of lemurs and other primates. The methods the group developed for this study can also be applied to understanding evolutionary relationships among other animal groups for which genomic sequences are hard to come by.
The researchers report their findings in the March 1 issue of Genome Research.
Collaborators on the study included Stephanie Embry, Isabella Fiorentino, Gregory Wray and Huntington Willard, all of Duke; Peter Kappeler, of the German Primate Centre; and James Balhoff, of the National Evolutionary Synthesis Center.
Adapted from materials provided by Duke University.
May 2, 2008 at 12:16 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
424now (anonymous) says...
HP,
I do appreciate your posts. Kudos
May 2, 2008 at 1:21 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Hadleyburg_Press (anonymous) says...
As do I yours, and if truth be known, I really appreciate everyone's posts. I cherish the open discussion. Anger, humor, education, rant, rave, and all.
May 2, 2008 at 1:29 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
424now (anonymous) says...
Amen to that.
As long as I can see a balance to the views. As this is a public domain and warrants a modicum of self control, I can see why the recent rash of over zealous posters were shown the cyber/door. Although I found some of the more over the top statements generated excellent debates.
May 2, 2008 at 11:09 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
playa46 (anonymous) says...
woah, did I miss out on a lot in my past weeks gone.......
May 3, 2008 at 10:23 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
424now (anonymous) says...
lol
May 4, 2008 at 3:54 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jester1cp (anonymous) says...
Shine
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71GMrG...
May 7, 2008 at 6:11 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
424now (anonymous) says...
More than this,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfgU4i...
May 8, 2008 at 2:12 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
id04sp (anonymous) says...
Is there a Starbucks around here anywhere? I need to download some e-mail.
Thanks
May 20, 2008 at 9:39 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
424now (anonymous) says...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9iMgS...
May 20, 2008 at 11:08 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
424now (anonymous) says...
As of this post seven hundred eleven posts in this thread. Just goes to show what kind of conversation a debate on religion can be.
May 20, 2008 at 11:09 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seven (anonymous) says...
Jester1cp
thank you for the may 7th post.
Tashmas song "SHINE" has a great anointing on it. listening to it brings the soul around to thoughts of Him and how we are nothing without Him. its currently the number one song in my life and listened to daily. may He Bless you mightly for continued courage to stand for His precious Name. A Name above all others.
as for others--jay_k and party
cursing God and His Holy word and blastpheming is all yours by choice. guessing the big bang evolution theory is true will will get you nothing because there is no truth in it. this path will only prove guillability. the price only costs ones soul. expendable in todays world. yes , have been to your my space blog. we do understand lifestyle choices go against the Bible. but the truth is all of us have problems in our own lifestyles. we are all equal lackys together. none better than the other. obviously someone has torrmented you over your choices. forgive them and move on. you are loved no less by Him no matter what others say. we are clay in The Potters hands. by the way you mention yourself about working at the bookstore---national number one book seller has always been the Bible and always will be. do you believe everyone to be fools and you to be the wise one?
for those who havent yet felt His presence and ask about proving there is a God. one easy way to find out exactly right now is to go to the may 7th post of Jester1cp and play the Shine song.
as i am the least among you, i say unto you this song has an anointing that i myself can confirm as real. can feel it . able to compare to other powerful Blessings He is able to bestow upon us.
WARNING: believing music must only be good with lots of instruments or hugely talented singers goes out the window. music that has His anoited presence penetrates the soul and is very addictive. do not play this song if you are totally convinced there is no God. this song is for those trying to find and confirm that indeed He is real and want to actually feel what an anoiting is so they can identify it more easily in other areas of their lives. for seekers of truth.
lastly
the beginning article holds true today. now everyone has had a chance to see the economy start to fall towards a depresion--all because americans are going against Israel. clean this political mess up. STAND UP FOR ISRAEL. God promised to bless those who bless Israel and curse those who curse Israel. factually it is that simple.
June 5, 2008 at 1:37 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
knee_dropper (anonymous) says...
Seven, factually, you sound like your off your respective rocker. I think I'll do what George Carlin suggested and worship the sun. You can see the sun, it creates life and you can feel it anointing me in it's presence. Unlike your invisible Old-Testament bogeyman that's somehow sending the American economy into recession because it's "going against Israel." Maybe we should cut off the annual subsidy Israel receives and spend it here in country
June 7, 2008 at 7:20 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Joe_Mama (anonymous) says...
Joe agrees with knee dropper, seven exhibits the rationality of exactly what his/her/it's name implies, a seven year old.
Joe also thinks that seven either is ignoring the real reason evangelicals want Israel to exist, or is too ignorant to understand what is written in his/her/it's book of nonsense.
According to the deluded one's holy book, Israel MUST exist so that it can be wiped from the face of the earth when - don't laugh- "armeggedon" finally happens.
It's just this sort of thinking that is detrimental to humans, hopefully seven has not reproduced.
June 7, 2008 at 8:40 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seven (anonymous) says...
same old same old
always impling those that know Him are ignorant to intimadate and hopefully scare those seeking away. remember we also read your stategy books. the word ignorance always gives you away.
all of us were once more ignorant than even today. remember someone had to teach us how to even say our own name then be able to write it.
besides the "you tube"access to the song by Tshma "Shine" another has a strong anoiting. check out the McKameys old song"Under His feet".
seekers
nothing of this world can satisfy like Him. read the comments of others who bash Him. think about their words and compare what your gut feeling is. feel or see anything good? does it feel Holy? then check out the music just mentioned.
undeniable nothing compares
June 7, 2008 at 11:35 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seven (anonymous) says...
forgot
its the logan, west virginia version of "under His feet" for the McKameys song. other versions not the same.
June 7, 2008 at 12:04 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Joe_Mama (anonymous) says...
Joe sees that seven has avoided the point of Joe's post to instead post more self-serving nonsense, rather than have an intelligent discussion.
"same old same old" is exactly right. Just what Joe has come to expect from the likes of seven.
June 7, 2008 at 2:15 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
424now (anonymous) says...
The song is cool anyhow,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1lyNx...
June 12, 2008 at 9:16 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seven (anonymous) says...
424now
wrong version. there are many. the correct one is live in logan, west virginia. scroll down a bit.
very glad you enjoyed it though.
so many on this blog hunger to see or at least feel His presence. you may have a song to share that for fact has a great anointing on it or a clip of a spirit filled preacher or just a good word of encouragement. would love to hear it.
June 13, 2008 at 4:54 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
424now (anonymous) says...
As you wish,
Make a joyful noise!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdK-HU...
June 14, 2008 at 1:14 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seven (anonymous) says...
424now
thx for the blessing of good music. was good to see the daddy of Crabb family. a wonderful preacher.
June 14, 2008 at 2:19 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Joe_Mama (anonymous) says...
joe thinks that since seven just continues to spout nonsensical religious catch phrases, he must have some empirical evidence to support the existence of his version of a creator being.
Joe would love it if seven would come forth with that evidence, and include why his particular devotion to his imaginary friend is different and/or more correct than say, a sunni living in Iran, or a Buddist living in Tibet. Or even a catholic living in Milan.
joe suspects that seven has no idea what he's talking about, that he is nothing more than a victim of geographical circumstance and/or poor thought processes.
seven, your response please ?
June 16, 2008 at 11:24 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Joe_Mama (anonymous) says...
Joe only has minute, and will delve further into 424's posts deeper at a later time.
Joe will respond to 424's ending question with a question:
Why is it any more or less "crazy" to think that the universe created itself as opposed to a god creating the universe? Especially since evidence points to the universe - as we are able to perceive it - creating itself, and none that points to a creator being ?
Joe thinks 424 is halfway there, now just move past the religious dogma that keeps us as a species from progressing.
;->
June 19, 2008 at 4:25 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
standup (anonymous) says...
joe_mama
the answer lies many times over in former posts.
the soul of seven is not for sale is yours? would it be to the lowest form of bidders who seeks those easily fooled.
dont be so guillable. at least joe_mama asks. one day joe_mama will find. until then all these religious people will seem like crazies only to those still without truth.
June 16, 2008 at 8:32 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Joe_Mama (anonymous) says...
Joe thinks that standup apparently hasn't throughly read Joe's previous posts.
Joe would ask standup the same question he has asked seven.
"Evidence, please !"
"Evidence that there is such a thing as the soul. Evidence that your particular version of an imaginary friend is true. Please don't bother with "personal experience" stories, mental wards are full of people who have "personal experiences". Evidence that supports your version of "truth", which you just mentioned. Evidence that someone named Jesus ever existed. Evidence that your holy book is actually the unequivical word of a creator being. "
Joe thinks that's enough to start with, and awaits either of you two *derogatorydescription*'s responses.
June 17, 2008 at 9:52 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
standup (anonymous) says...
joe_mama
might i suggest starting joe_mamas journey with the routt county pilgramage.
many have started here.
go from sboat on 40 towards hayden. turn left before hayden power plant(name rcr 27 or rcr 37 some call it 20 mile but there are 2 20 mile roads confusing). go about one and a half miles and on right way over will see 3 huge crosses. sits way of the main road. this area has a history you wont understand right now but will later. on the pilgramage up the hill people hear gospel music thats unexplainable. the ground has been anoited with oils from jerusalem ,alabaster can be seen on the ground. the baptismal is a pond named israel pond at foot of crosses. hear in routt county? who would have thought any thing holy would be anywhere but the belt of the good book.
this is a start for u. faith comes by hearing. joe_mama/hunterdog/jay_k stay on these posts not knowing their soul hungers for truth.
June 17, 2008 at 11:35 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
424now (anonymous) says...
Hey Joe!
Circular reasoning anyone?
In the face of your repeated request for proof. I respectfully ask for yours.
"Evidence, please !"
Evidence that there is no such a thing as the soul. Evidence that any particular version of an imaginary friend is untrue.
Evidence that someone named Jesus never existed. Evidence that any holy book is actually not the unequivical word of a creator being.
Hey, what if they are all correct?
Is that enough to start with?
June 17, 2008 at 5:10 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Joe_Mama (anonymous) says...
Joe thinks 424 has forgotten one important fact :
It is not Joe's responsibility to disprove the assertation of religious wackos.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. Those who make the claim have the onus of proof.
What evidence would 424 like that supports Joe's assertations ? Years and years of scientific study ? The same results proven on a daily basis ? Those same scientific methods reveal no evidence that supports the claim of the existence of an imaginary friend, creator being, however you would like to phrase it. Especially the christian version, or the islamic version, or whichever strain of this particular virus you care to name. Joe has simply repeated, [I know, over and over again] the fact that no empirical evidence supports the existence of any "god".
Quite frankly, Joe will take proven scientific fact [until disproved, usually by other scientists, which reveals another flaw in the religious dogma argument- unwillingness to challenge "known" concepts, no matter how ridiculous] over sitting back and guessing this is the way things are.
Joe thinks that a healthy skepticism is very important to the survival of our species. Sounds overly dramatic, I know. However, Joe would say that blind faith, rather than rational thought, is at the core of many of the problems that exist.
Joe, although, IS having some difficulty understanding the last part of 424's post ........."What if they all are correct?".........
Joe is going to assume that 424 is going with the Pascal's Wager argument [better off to believe than not, 'cause if Joe's right, what has 424 lost ?]. That line of thought has been debated for some time, and Joe is quite capable of heading down that road as well, if need be.
At least Joe is capable of having a thought-prevoking debate with 424, quite unlike certain others on this particular thread.
June 17, 2008 at 5:40 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Joe_Mama (anonymous) says...
Although, Joe must admit, he LOVES it when George Clinton sings " Swing down sweet chariot, stop, and let me ride".
June 17, 2008 at 6:05 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
424now (anonymous) says...
Hey Joe!
What I mean by "all correct" is precisely that. What if every individual religion from every facet of human civilization was in some manner correct.
If in fact GOD is the universal and all powerful creator. It must be allowed that he can do anything. This would include apearing and apealling to diferent peoples as a differing entity. Carrying a different face outbound to all the corners of the world.
After all, all things are possible with God.
June 17, 2008 at 6:40 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
424now (anonymous) says...
Wiki Wiki wikipedia,
Existence of God
"The debate concerning the existence of God raises many philosophical issues. A basic problem is that there is no universally accepted definition of God. Some definitions of God's existence are so non-specific that it is certain that something exists that meets the definition; in stark contrast, there are suggestions that other definitions are self-contradictory."
&
"An ontological argument for the existence of God attempts the method of a priori proof, which uses intuition and reason alone."
Then there are proof of God Arguments. Such as,
1. "God" means "Creator of the Physical Universe."
2. Time passes, from the past, into the present, and on to the future.
3. The past was either finite or infinite in duration. That is, the amount of seconds, days, years, etc. before the present moment (day, year...) must have been either infinite or finite in number.
4. History has its end in the present. (The future is not history.) So if the past was of infinite duration, an infinity came to its end. But this is a self-contradiction.
5. Therefore, the universe did not have an infinitely long past; but a past of finite length. Therefore, it had a beginning.
6. The universe was created.
June 17, 2008 at 6:42 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
424now (anonymous) says...
If no Man walked the earth named Jesus, teaching the gospel as is reported by multiple witnesses in the book we currently refer to as the Bible,
then why did all these seperate people write in the first place?
June 17, 2008 at 6:45 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
424now (anonymous) says...
My personal logic is this, and you can poke at it all day. I have come to peace with my philosophy a very long time ago,
The world I have come to know is to sematrically perfect for me to simply assume randomn chemical combinations evolving over billions of years, powered by the energy from the sun, leading to the emergence of life on this planet, then adaptation of species to be a randomn sequence of events. To many other planets are baren.
http://www.writing.com/main/view_item...
June 17, 2008 at 6:59 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
424now (anonymous) says...
And thread this is Pascal Wagner,
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/pas...
June 17, 2008 at 7:02 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Joe_Mama (anonymous) says...
As Joe reads 424's latest posts, a few thoughts come to mind.
As for the first post, Joe would respond, " Yes, and if 424 had a wheel, he or she would be a wheelbarrow." Gods and godesses are nothing more than the primitive mind attempting to understand what it doesn't know. As science learns more and more about our universe, the space a "god" can exist in shrinks.
Second post: Joe thought at first this was a misfire, since Joe seems to remember 424 accusing him earlier of circular reasoning. Using the bible to prove the truth of the bible is the epitome of circular reasoning.
How about a little independent verification that a jew named Jesus, who was also the son of god existed ? Other than Josephus Flavius, whose mention of Jesus has long been shown to be an interpolation, probably by an overzealous christian.
Moving on to the third post, Joe would point out this fatal flaw in 424's argument : 424 seems to be saying that the universe is so spectacular and [ironically, since this is the environment we evolved in] this planet is so well suited for us, that it must have been created. However, if it had to be created, who created the creator ?
In other words, the creator would need an even more sophisticated creator, and so on, ad nausem........this is simple logic, not necessarily religious folks' strongpoint, but nevertheless.
At the end of the 3rd post 424 writes "to[sic] many other planets are baren[sic]"......."Wow", is all Joe can say to that...there are 8 planets in our solar system, as far as we can tell, or depending on who you believe. EIGHT out of billions of other solar systems, many like ours, unexplored by humans, trillions of other planets, ect.
Therefore, how can you make a statement like that ?
Joe respects 424's right to believe whatever he or she wishes, however, Joe thinks that if a person decides to have "faith" that something is true, or to post in a public forum said person's personal beliefs, that same person should be better prepared to defend that belief to skeptical scrutiny. Joe bears no ill will towards 424, but too long have simple religious beliefs been off-limits for discussion.
June 18, 2008 at 12:50 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
424now (anonymous) says...
Hey Joe!
Re; June 17, 2008 at 6:40,
No matter how many wheels I pile at my feet I will never attain the honor of being a wheelbarrow.
Where the agnostic, atheist or simple unbeliever sees a world present through the emergence and then evolution of life, the religious see a reality present through the divine action of God.
I make no attempt to dispute the hard science that I have come to trust when it comes to existing systems available for review. I simply have a different idea of how the entire construct came to be. We differ on this and never the twains shall meet.
Re; June 17, 2008 at 6:42,
My circular reasoning comment was my warning to anyone reading my comments that my reasoning is circular in some of this matter. To date I have yet to here Joe get circular. Now me on the other hand, I will at least admit it.
Now as to a Jew named Jesus Christ and refered to by historians and not simply Christian people. I will name some names.
Roman Historians; Cornelius Tacitus, Suetonius, Thallus and Phlegon. All these men refered to a man the Jews were worshiping as the Chrestus a common Roman misspelling of the word Christ.
RE; Josephus or Yosef Ben Matityahu' credibility. Hey I love Josephus he is one of my favorites!
Who showed Joesephus was misstating any of his historical accounts to the Romans he was working for? Those accounts were a function of his Job. As a Jewish military leader and later a roman citizen living in the time period he had the vantage needed to give an accounting of the events. His convenient positioning and later sympathetic comments do not automatically discount his writings. I have to qualify this guy eventually refered to Jesus as the Christ.
Re; June 17, 2008 at 6:59
I admit it, that one is simply sloppy. Let me rephrase for the sake of debate.
I believe we humans have a design error in our genetic structure the shows itself in our inability to conceive the infinite. We pay infinity lip service but deep down we tend to assign finite values to everything in our experience. Our best minds use catch phrases when explaining cosmological concepts to the rest of us in hopes of imparting an inkling of understanding. We get words like the "Big Bang" and the "Great Crunch" thrown at us in a vain attempt to over simplify the latest mathematical proofs they have worked out. I am not saying that any of this work is incorrect although some of it ultimately will be proven to be false. That's just the nature of Mathematics. It is an emerging science. Apply it to Cosmology and it is a hoot!
So, may I humbly begin with a question,
Why does their have to be a beginning and an end to all things?
June 18, 2008 at 3:42 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
424now (anonymous) says...
42 looks around himself with a curious countenance set in his expression and say's out loud, "Half way where?"
Hey Joe!
You're not crazy in the least to take a completely scientific tack on a basis for a personal belief system. You are following your path. You believe what you believe and you will debate it openly in the face of opposition. This, my friend is an honorable stance. In my humble opinion you are taking the possibility of magic out of the equation. I am simply not willing to let that go. I have to quote the bard, "There are more things in Heaven and Earth Horacio than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
So many folks defend a dogma as opposed to a faith in the almighty. Why? Because your fathers fathers father said so? I can't abide blind faith in the face of opposing proofs. This is a main reason I decided against following devoutly Catholicism, Buddhism, Taoism... after studying their teachings. I found contradictions galore in their lessons. I thought I would be doomed to a faithless life. I found myself a deeply religious man without a church. In the end it was only me in my own skull working over the question. How do I worship my God? I have this drive in me. It will be my ruin if I don't master this motivation. I can't blindly follow someone who asks me to close my eyes. What can I do? That is when I started to see that every human that has this built in sense of faith in the almighty needs an outlet for that feeling. I say feeling because I have no other words to describe my faith. It is what it is.
With that said let me reconfirm, I believe in the one and only Almighty God. Given the opportunity I will shout it from the mountaintops! As a matter of strict fact I enjoy that pastime. If you listen real intently at dawn on Christmas day on the south side of town, you will here a acoustic guitar playing "Oh come all ye faithful." I am a man who has accepted Jesus Christ into my heart and soul as my personal savior. I choose to follow the teachings of the new testimate of the bible. I do this quietly and personally. As is my choice and right. I occasionally spend time in the presence of other Christians but a majority of my life is spent with people of differing beliefs. My path is and has been a long and winding road. Today it leads me to this blog.
Someone at NASA needs to set a tiny china teapot into an elliptical orbit around the Sun between Earth and Mars.
June 19, 2008 at 6:38 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Joe_Mama (anonymous) says...
Joe would pass on this information to 424 concerning the historicity of Jesus of the bible, noting:
First, obviously the bible is not credible evidence to support his existence. Although Joe could even use those accounts to debunk the claim, or at least cast doubt on them.
Second, the only evidence we have is heresay. Courts do not accept heresay as evidence.
Josephus Flavius, the Jewish historian, lived as the earliest non-Christian who mentions a Jesus. Although many scholars think that Josephus' short accounts of Jesus (in Antiquities) came from interpolations perpetrated by a later Church father (most likely, Eusebius), Josephus' birth in 37 C.E., well after the alleged crucifixion of Jesus, puts him out of range of an eyewitness account. Moreover, he wrote Antiquities in 93 C.E., after the first gospels got written. That is a notable fact. Therefore, even if his accounts about Jesus came from his hand, his information could only serve as hearsay.
Tacitus, the Roman historian's, birth year at 64 C.E., puts him well after the alleged life of Jesus. He gives a brief mention of a "Christus" in his Annals (Book XV, Sec. 44), which he wrote around 109 C.E. He gives no source for his material. Although many have disputed the authenticity of Tacitus' mention of Jesus, the very fact that his birth happened after the alleged Jesus and wrote the Annals during the formation of Christianity, shows that his writing can only provide us with hearsay accounts.
Suetonius, who was a Roman historian, was born in 69 C.E. He mentions a "Chrestus," a common name. Apologists assume that "Chrestus" means "Christ" (a disputable claim). But even if Seutonius had meant "Christ," it still says nothing about an earthly Jesus. Just like all the others, Suetonius' birth occurred well after the purported Jesus.
Pliny the Younger, a Roman official, was born in 62 C.E. His letter about the Christians only shows that he got his information from Christian believers themselves. Regardless, his birth date puts him out of the range of eyewitness accounts.
There were about 40 historians who wrote during the first two centuries. With the exception of the above, none stated that Jesus existed in the 1st century.
June 20, 2008 at 10:53 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Joe_Mama (anonymous) says...
Con't...
Preeminent among the Jewish historians of the first century is Philo Judaeus of Alexandria. His dates, 30 BCE - 453, include Jesus' alleged life span. Among his writings is a history of the Jewish people. It is still available today. Philo was particularly interested in contemporary religious movements and sects of which there were many. Yet he never once mentions Jesus or any of the extraordinary events associated with him in the New Testament.
Justus of Tiberius, another contemporary Jewish historian, also wrote a history of the Jewish people covering this period. Although the work is now lost, we know that it was extant at least until 891 because Photius, the Patriarch of Constantinople, read it and expressed astonishment that it contained not one reference to Jesus (Photius' Bibliotheca, code 33) .
Here's Joe's summary regarding the chance of there ever being a Jesus as described in the bible. .............
June 20, 2008 at 10:59 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Joe_Mama (anonymous) says...
Con't...[sorry, Joe's a little long-winded today, gotta lay off the caffeine]
1. Jesus' early life is obscure. We do not know his birth date, or even the year. We don't have the year of his death. If you are claiming Jesus was just a man, of course nothing exists to prove a natural birth so this evidence is non-existent. We know nothing of his childhood, save at 12, and then he vanishes again. And we know his parents first names.
2. Jesus never wrote one book, one sentence, not even as much as a letter.
3. None of Jesus' supposed teachings are original. Justin Martyr also admits to Trypho that Jesus' teachings and that of the Christians were documented earlier in the Greek philosophies of Aristotle (ironically), Socrates, and Plato. All of the teachings of Jesus can be found in religions that existed hundreds if not thousands of years earlier. For example, in John 1:1, a similar passage can be found in Heraclitus.
4. No major figure in History ever had direct contact with Jesus. No historical commentary about any major figure in history ever places them near or around Jesus in any fashion. In all the volumes of Josephus, never once does it state that Herod murdered a great multitude of infants at the birth of some savior figure. Nor does it state anywhere that Pilate killed Jesus in any Roman record.
5. No great work of science or philosophy ever came from Jesus, or one of Jesus' followers. All are void of intelligent thought, and contain evidence of following in the footsteps of servitude.
6. In the trial alone of Jesus, there contains anywhere from 14-27 infractions of Sanhedrin and Roman law [depending who you believe]. This does not include a large number of historical contradictions outside of the trial, which reach into the hundreds.
7. In every aspect of Christ's supposed life, there is reason to question his existence because of the errors, contradictions and fallacies not only within the Bible, but concerning the utter lack of evidence concerning the events of his life.
again, Joe respects 424's right to believe however he wishes, but these are some of the reasons that point to the non-exsistence of jesus as desribed in the bible.
June 20, 2008 at 11:02 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Joe_Mama (anonymous) says...
One more, although Joe has indicated that using the bible to prove the truth of the bible is not credible, Joe will explain one reason why Joe thinks the even the bible doesn't prove Jesus' existence.
Let's look closer at the epistle of "James" :
Now, James was allegedly the BROTHER of Jesus,
so we would expect his letter to be chock-full of personal details about Jesus.
Well, guess what?
June 20, 2008 at 11:24 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Joe_Mama (anonymous) says...
Con't [stupid 3000 character limit]....
The letter of James only even MENTIONS the name "Jesus" twice in the whole letter.
It has NO personal details at all. NOT one shred of historical information about Jesus can be found in the letter allegedly from a member of his FAMILY.
The person who wrote the letter of James had OBVIOUSLY never even HEARD of a historical Jesus.
Let's examine the letter to see what Joe means -
The ONLY 2 places to use the name Jesus are here:
1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are in the Dispersion: Greetings.
The introduction of the letter, mentions he is a "servant" of God and of Lord Jesus Christ (ie. a typical faithful phrase invoking their highest names) - totally FAILS to mention he is brother to Jesus.
2:1 My brothers, don't hold the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ of glory with partiality.
Another faithful phrase telling us nothing about Jesus. No mention James is his brother.
June 20, 2008 at 11:25 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Joe_Mama (anonymous) says...
Con't [this is a little irritating, I know]
What DOESN'T Joe see in James :
NO mention of Jesus' family at all - NO Mary or Joseph or siblings.
NO mention of the birth stories - NO Bethlehem, Nazareth, Magi, Herod, the flight...
NO mention of teachings Jesus - NO sermon, Lord's prayer, food regulations
NO mention of miracles - NO Lazarus, feeding the multitude, healing the sick...
NO mention of any Gospel event - NO Teaching at the Temple, Temple Cleansing, Triumphal Entry, Temptation, Baptism in Jordan etc, etc...
NO mention of the trial of Jesus - NO Pilate, Sanhedrin, Judas etc...
NO mention of the empty tomb, the crucifixion, the resurrection.
Joe can not find a SINGLE PIECE of information about the life of Jesus in the whole epistle of James.
From a person who was supposedly in Jesus' very family and probably would have experienced many of these events if they had really happened.
Even worse, if you do read James, there are many places where you would expect him to mention Jesus or his teaching -
Chapter 1 talks about resisting temptation - NO mention of the temptation of Jesus !
Chapter 2 starts like this in some versions - "do you .. really believe in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ?" (a different translation of the phrase which in the Greek goes something like this: "do not with partiality believe in Jesus Christ the glorious").
Here is James trying to convince them to believe in Jesus Christ, and he totally fails to even mention he knew Jesus, let alone was his brother - instead all he gives to try and prove Jesus is some preaching about the poor and the rich WITHOUT mentioning anything Jesus said about the poor.
James quotes "Love Thy Neighbour as Thyself" - but NOT from Jesus, just "scripture".
James preaches about adultery - NO mention of Jesus' teachings.
James argues that faith without works is useless - when he provides examples, it's from the OT - Abraham, Rahab - NO mention of Jesus.
James reminds people not to curse or speak evil - NO mention of Jesus' teachings on that.
James preaches about suffering and patience - NO mention of Jesus as example, just Job and the prophets.
James talks about the church elders bringing healing and forgiving sins - NO mention of Jesus doing that.
James even invokes Elijah who was a "human being like us" - NO mention of Jesus.
James never knew any Jesus.
In dozens of places, James preaches something that CRIES out for a mention of Jesus or his teachings - but it looks like James has never even HEARD of Jesus of Nazareth - just the risen Christ, a spiritual being.
Note that James uses the phrase "my brothers (and sisters)" DOZENS of times - NOT the slightest hint that HE is the brother of Jesus anywhere in the letter.
There simply is NOTHING about the life of Jesus in the letter of James.
This is another example that leads Joe to suspect that there was never a Jesus.
June 20, 2008 at 11:26 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
424now (anonymous) says...
Hey Joe!
A suspicion is not a proof. Athough dillegent and well thought out, your reference work has the same weakness in disproving the existence of Jesus Christ as it does in providing proof of his existence. Its weak at best I like to think of this tack as the "Much to do about nothing" defense. You quite easily deny the gospels and any writings of a devout Christian as biased. This denial eliminates all of the professed first hand accounts of Christ's existence. Then quite contentedly you point to a lack of information regarding Christ in the first place. When you do this you push any reference to Christ out past the time he was on earth. The references you end up with are related to Christianity and not the man.
This tack leads us to a null. I say the gospel is evidence of Christ's time on earth. You oppose. Again these are two twains destined never to converge.
June 20, 2008 at 1:50 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
424now (anonymous) says...
Now to the talking points,
1. Jesus' early life is obscure? Due to the success of Christianity Jesus Christ is one of the best known religious figures in all of history. When was the last time you spoke the name Zoroaster? Again the only purported documentation of eye witness accounts of Christ are considered by you biased and off limits.
2. Jesus never wrote, ANYTHING. In the time period we are referring to very few people wrote ANYTHING. That kind of education was rare in the first century AD.
3. None of Jesus' supposed teachings are original. I am completely alright with that statement. In that I write, I understand the need for revision. The concepts framed in the Bible are tenants worthy of clarification and repetition.
4. No major figure in History ever had direct contact with Jesus. Do the heads of state always deem it necessary to socialize with the local pastors? Things like this;
http://www.medaloffreedom.com/JesseJa...
may have happened but there was no photography core to immortalize in a color glossy.
5. Servitude; Joe, I will say this as I live by this tenant: Be the one to help simply because you are present and able. When I pass from this earth I pray the one thing I can leave behind is a lifetime of service to my fellow man. At present 42 years and counting.
6. I have to assume that the procedures that were followed is where the infractions of Sanhedrin and Roman law occurred. The other historical contradictions you refer to sound intriguing. If you care to I would enjoy a more specific delving into them.
7. Faith.
8. The lack of any reference by James to Jesus, excepting in salutations, bares the same lack of weight in that his writing was included in the bible due to the tenant's he was preaching. Not as witness to the actions of his brother. No harm, no foul. When was the last time I mentioned my brother in my writings?
June 20, 2008 at 3:53 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
424now (anonymous) says...
To be fair, I need to point out that I don't fall into line with a majority of the religious organizations I have come into contact with. I have found in my time a very few Christian preachers, usually of small congregations, that have a realistic approach to the promotion of Christian fellowship. These few have taken the information gathered and proven by science into account. They did not attack Anthropological, Archaeological or Geological discoveries in the sermons. They have tended to preach the moral lessons as opposed to dogmatic doctrine. The one clear and present exception is of course the life of Jesus Christ. I happen to be in agreement with that approach.
The sad fact is that very few religious leaders fit this description. Most I have met have some very serious misconceptions included in their lesson plan that they continue to teach as fact. The frightening part is people accept it as fact! People like this idiot.
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news...
The world is changing and unfortunately we have more and more easily led humans being manipulated by mass media every day. There should be a lesson plan for third grade students that explain mass market advertising techniques. There are groups out there willing to preach a generalized doctrine to a large audience in order to maintain the largest possible base of support. In the generalization of the original information a possible misrepresentation of the content or spirit of the lesson occurs. This is where faith gets corrupted. People close their eyes and follow the leader. This blind faith is where religious zealotry is born.
June 21, 2008 at 12:25 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Joe_Mama (anonymous) says...
Joe would reply, firstly, to 424's post of 6/20 @ 1:50 thus:
If it is OK for 424 to use what he calls "first hand accounts" from the bible to prove the truth of the existence of a person called jesus, who was also the messiah as predicted by the OT [which is also quite open to debate], then Joe felt that he [being quite familiar with the writings in the bible] could use the same text to cast doubt on on jesus existence. In all honesty, Joe thinks that all writings in the bible are suspect and very few stand up to intense scrutiny.
June 23, 2008 at 9 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Joe_Mama (anonymous) says...
Now to address what 424 refers to, and rightly so, as "talking points":
1] I referred to Jesus' early life as "obscure", and that was correct. There is nothing that indicates, even according to the text written [supposedly] by his followers, of what his early life was like. A brief mention of the age of 12, of him being disobedient to his parents, ironically which would have gotten him stoned to death, if you follow the OT rules to the letter, then nothing until his 30's. Interesting that you would mention other gods. I would argue that you are agnostic to Zoroaster, or Zeus, or Mithra, in the same way I am to Jesus.
How do you think that happens ?
Along those same lines, Joe thinks by some of your posts you would consider yourself an evangelical christian, with perhaps some progressive leanings. I deduce that from your "born again" comment, but i could be mistaken. Using that as an example, there are about 22,000 sects of christianity in the world. That would mean that if you do adhere to those beliefs, that gives you about a .00045 chance of being correct. Seems to shoot down the Pascal's Wager argument. I personally would never gamble on anytrhing that only had that percentage rate of success.
June 23, 2008 at 9:22 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Joe_Mama (anonymous) says...
On to point #2:
If Jesus were the Messiah, and you could make this argument about any of the supposed gods, wouldn't he want everyone to follow his teachings ? Considering the miracles that were supposedly performed by him, how difficult would it have been for he himself to put his words down ? Remember he was supposedly the son of god, and in fact [again depending which sect of christianity you believe in] was god, how difficult would it have been for him to make sure everyone on the planet heard his teachings. Joe thinks your argument on that point doesn't hold water.
Point #3] We agree on this one, except that I used it in the context of showing how suspect the claim of christianity of being the one true religion is.
Point #4, with all due respect, is simply a strawman argument. We're talking about a leader of a large population under Roman rule, who performed miracles and was crucified. Joe thinks there should be a very good possibility that that incident would have made it into the record.
Point #5] Servitude and blind faith without just cause, to Joe seems dangerous. Having said that, Joe highly respects 424's comment "When I pass from this earth I pray the one thing I can leave behind is a lifetime of service to my fellow man." Joe thinks if more christians lived by that tenat, we'd be much better off. Joe finds much to admire in that statement.
It is a good explanation for why Joe seems so quick to debate the "god" issue, in his own way, Joe sees it as a service to his fellow man. Remember this is an open forum, and despite the lack of intellegent input from others, this isn't just a discussion/debate between us. Others read these posts as well. I hope [and I bet you do to].
June 23, 2008 at 10:09 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Joe_Mama (anonymous) says...
Con't....
Point #6] Joe would be happy to supply some starter reference points regarding this point, if 424 would like.
Point#7] "Faith"....Faith=belief in things unseen. 'Nuff said.
Point #8] See Point #4
Regarding 424's last post........Using a device to burn the image of a cross into a child's arm is reprehensible. there is no excuse for the abuse of children.
Where do you think that thought got embedded in that particular teacher's mind ? Was he just insane [of course]?
To use a very extreme example, and pardon the graphic and crude description....at some point, Jews and other religious sects decided, apparently under the guise of cleanliness,
" Let's get a sharp object and mutilate our children's genitals".
Perhaps that sort of extreme behavior desensitized this particular believer to the point of committing this act. Obviously it's not uncommon for believers of all stripes to practice self mutilation, and the genital mutilation is required in the OT.
Thoughts ?
June 23, 2008 at 10:22 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Joe_Mama (anonymous) says...
Joe has one more thing, a few personal pointers Joe likes to operate by in these debates with religious apologists:
Question everything.
Do not be offended. If you stand on firm ground you will not be easily shaken.
Analogies have powerful eyes but weak backs.
Be open-minded but do not let your brain fall out. Being open-minded does not mean being vacant.
Skepticism is the intellectual immune system. Nurture a healthy skepticism.
Skepticism should be applied evenly. Apply the same skepticism to your own views that you do the views of others.
The more holy or sacred something the less likely it is to be true.
Faith means never admit when you are wrong.
God/s are another way of saying "I don't know."
Faith, theology and apologetics are rationalizations to propagate ideas that could not otherwise stand the light of day.
If you are bored it is because you are boring.
June 23, 2008 at 10:30 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
424now (anonymous) says...
I have a stack of work I have to get through but when I am done I wil address the very well presented and thought out responses of Joe. I look forward to the opportunity.
June 23, 2008 at 11:03 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seven (anonymous) says...
on saturday night a lady was healed from liver cancer by the spirit of God working in an old fashioned preacher. another recieved the Holy Ghost-spirit of God with evidence of speaking in tongues. about 4 to 5 of the youth gave their lives to the Lord.others heeled from several day migrain headaches, stomach problems instantly heeled and pain removed. to God be all the glory. the service was outdoors. the preacher has a gift also to sing. the building was once a liquor store. the old sign was torched off and 3 crosses placed in the air. the preacher was standing under the crosses. on the left was a closed strip club. a little ways down on the right was a huge drive thru alchol business. it was lit up and doing business while the preacher could be heard over the loud speaker. sometimes as the praise intensified old satan would send by a noisy train. cars passed by some slowed, some circled back. people were laying on the ground passed out in the presence. blankets were on the ground. the make shift alter was only about a foot high. normal 3 foot not needed since they sometimes rolled from there to the ground over come by the presence of the holy spirit. He promised He would leave His spirit as a comfort for all of us. He is real , His promises are real, i witness to you i can feel it and see it manifest among His people.
the night was unplanned and was surprised where the less traveled road can take one. found out after the service which went very late, that God stepped in to close the strip club. an old law on books said neighbors had to approve of it. new neighbors the church did not approve . this caused strife with strip club owner who also owned the alcohol drive thru. He offered the church pastor(not the evangelist) 250,000. not for sell. recently got pushy offered 350,000. not for sell.they paid approximately 35,000 for it. reminded me of a song on youtube by micheal combs "Not For Sell".
have requested a old fashioned Holy Ghost tent meeting from this blessed servant of God and requested an outpouring of His spirit for those about to recieve it. for those who know Him please pray for his devine will for routt co.
as for those above who say the Bible is not true and Jesus never existed-----------your dont yet know what your missing.
June 23, 2008 at 12:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
424now (anonymous) says...
The Bible (OT) and the New Testimate are often refered to as the Good Book "AKA" the word of God in print. I have a few differing versions. My favorite copy is the serviceman's version that was given to me in 1983 when I was in line waiting for a bus to the airport to leave the MIPS Station in LA. I also own some older copies of Shakespeare that was taught as text in turn of the century America, the Bhagavad-Gita and I collect comic books too.
When comparing the Bible, the Bhagavad-Gita, the Koran or any other piece of positive religious writing to other works or taking them to task for their inherent logical errors one can find you do the spirit of the work disservice. The men who wrote these works were inspired and attempting to help or guide their fellow man. In the vast majority of application of all these religions the end result was a more peaceful member of society after the introduction of a religious component. Yes there are and have been aberrations of the given philosophy but alas avarice and greed will remain the central motivating factor for some humans. These humans will forever be the Bain of the more tolerant masses.
Every Religious Statement makes a Spectacular Claim. It relates an encounter with the infinite. It attempts to anoint a message with a more than human or holy quality. This is the nature of all religious statements. They are attention grabbers. The spirit of the document will make itself known through the instructions that are intimated or directly advised. Are they truly inspired? If in fact they are worthy of immortality through continued repetition and devout practice they will be. If not then they fade from view or get twisted around in a vain attempt to achieve something more lasting.
That being said, Joe I have to agree that yes the exact events as portrayed in the bible do have logical issues for anyone attempting a literal dissection of the message. It the spirit that touches the heart and soul of the devout follower.
June 23, 2008 at 12:53 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
424now (anonymous) says...
More discussion on the talking points.
1) You are correct in that Jesus Christ has a childhood unknown to history. To that statement I wish to ask the question, "What were the childhoods of Socrates, Plato or Aristotle like?" We know their teachings and works but we have no account of their 12th birthdays at all. We accept their existence why not Jesus?
2) The fact that you have Jesus Christ to debate proves the ability of a Son of God to get his message out to the world at large. It is not my bucket that has a hole in it.
3) Indeed we do. Excepting that I never said it was the one true religion. I said Christianity is my chosen faith and I further stated that no man has the right to insist any religion is the one true path. "Judge not lest ye be judged."
4) Hey Joe! THIS IS ME 42! WAY OVER HERE ON THIS TWAIN! I AM USING A MEGAPHONE TO REITERATE THAT IT DOESN'T LOOK LIKE OUR TWAINS WILL EVER MEET!
5) I agree that blind faith in any religion that through coercion, violence or threat of death forces adherence to a doctrine is to be not only discouraged but completely eradicated from the face of the earth. Radical religion is the greatest threat we as Americans and people of religious tolerance are facing today. Have I mentioned South African Muslim extremist in this thread before?
6) Let's take up six after a little more work on these other points. ;-)
7) Wikipedia says it so clearly,
"Faith is a belief in the trustworthiness of an idea that has not been proven formally. Formal usage of the word "faith" is usually reserved for concepts of religion, as in theology, where it almost universally refers to a trusting belief in a transcendent reality (therefore spirituality and spiritual immortality), or else in a Supreme Being and their role as a guide for people moving into an experience of such reality."
I won't bore you with my experience on this topic. I will say in as few words as possible that I have faith in the human race.
8) Twain? What Twain? I don't see a twain.
I have to say that the genital mutilation you refer to has had it fair share of medical support and opposition. I myself was not only circumcised but Baptized at birth. Having had no ill affects and at the time no advise in opposition, I had my sons both circumcised. I suspect the practice will follow on down the line of descendants as a taught legacy. Granted a uniquely Judeo/Christian one but a legacy none the less.
June 23, 2008 at 3:25 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
424now (anonymous) says...
42 likes common sensicle tenants also. So to the list of tenants suggested by Joe, 42 would like to add.
In your investigation of the universe allow that you do not now or ever will have all the answers to every question. I am not saying you don't need to search for the truth. I am saying that there is a time and a place for everything. I may not have a proof of the almighty in hand today or tomorrow but God willing one day... Patience is a virtue.
A thick skin is cheaper than a suit of armor. To which I would like to add, Tell the truth. It is easier. When you lie there is just more to remember and your memory may not be up to the task. And finally, once branded as a liar your word is worth nothing.
A parable can help to communicate an idea where a rule can be too general.
The world is full of stumbling blocks, ever so carefully arranged and intentionally placed in your path. Keep your eyes open and your mind sharp.
There are ideas that are truly divine in nature. There are places where man should tread lightly. This life is gift to each of us, a valuable thing to be cherished and preserved.
Faith is a rock you can lean on in troubled times, a shield during tribulation and a solace in grief. Nothing in this world can take away your faith.
To say you know for certain that any one path to God is absolutely the only way to follow God is to say that God is not all powerful and all knowing. There is no way for a human to prove that God exists.
To believe in something more than is present in this universe is to open your mind to the possibility of God.
Every human has a talent. Every talent has a purpose. Every purpose has a need.
June 23, 2008 at 5:12 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Joe_Mama (anonymous) says...
Joe reads 424's post of 12:53 and thinks while reading :
When comparing the Bible, the Bhagavad-Gita, the Koran or any other piece of positive.... "
[stop right there...while not being that familiar with the Bhagavad-Gita, Joe's experience being about 50 pages ages ago, Joe is QUITE familiar with both the bible and the quran. Both books have enough common sense in them to be palatable to the masses, but to claim that the OT is "positive is too funny.....]...
"religious writing to other works or taking them to task for their inherent logical errors one can find you do the spirit of the work disservice". ...
[That's like saying, and I say this because of the fervent nature of most christians belief in this book, ""I have this medical book that has a few mistakes, but you can't discount it as the true word of the medical community because the spirit of the message is correct""]
"The men who wrote these works were inspired and attempting to help or guide their fellow man....." [again, highly doubtful....more like control over others.]
"Every Religious Statement makes a Spectacular Claim"....[Which requires extraordinary evidence..]
"It the spirit that touches the heart and soul of the devout follower."
[Joe would say, "Then why the need for a belief in a doctrine? 424's argument actually strengthens Joe's point. Morality is not dependent on religious affliation.]
June 24, 2008 at 5:27 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Joe_Mama (anonymous) says...
Talking points to follow when Joe have a little more time.
June 24, 2008 at 5:37 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
424now (anonymous) says...
Man! I am long winded today.
Thread, this is my opinion. I just like saying that every once in awhile.
What a majority of the religiously bent does not typically understand or at least attempt to understand is that the doctrine will always be second place to the faith one has in the almighty. If one chooses to believe in a higher power and furthermore specify that the higher power is the all powerful God, then this belief is the primary focus. All doctrines or religions are secondary to the first priority. God is the reason you have this religion not the other way around.
This next part always drives my Catholic best friend over the edge.
The specific religion does not matter. (I can literally feel hackles rising around me when I say that.) Each religion advocates a belief in God. As long as no one is injured and the end result is a faithful belief in the almighty the priority requirement is fulfilled. The Jews, Muslims and the Christians all claim the same God in the first place! Religion is a vehicle allowing an individual an avenue to satisfy an inherent feeling or desire to affiliate one's self with God. This desire is typically present in most of us. Joe, I have to say your opinion is atypical. I am not saying you are wrong. I am saying I believe you are wrong. Even if I am right I have no method of proving it to you.
As I have stated before, I choose to believe in Jesus Christ. I choose to believe in the one all mighty God. These are decisions I have made without any corroborating evidence that will satisfy any scientific investigator. My reasons are mine and mine alone. This is the religious path I chose. Any other would have done just as well but mine suites me. I tell you I believe in God and Jesus Christ. You say my entire reasoning is false. I smile and in my own irrational mind forgive you and pray for a salvation you don't want or believe you need. You won't be the first or the last Non believer I have spoken with.
Now back to those talking point,
June 24, 2008 at 7:26 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Joe_Mama (anonymous) says...
This Joe's opinion.
Thread, as you've seen, Joe is quite frequently long winded......Bear with him one more time, this time as he spouts his opinion phrased in the anecdotal sort.
Has 424 or anyone ever heard of Pierre-Simon de LaPlace ?
Perhaps if, you were an astronomer, or a true seeker of knowledge.
LaPlace, dead since 1827, was [some think] a brilliant French scientist who took Newton's work a step or two further and showed through calculus how the motions and operations of our solar system were certainly those of bodies revolving systematically in a vacuum.
Think of how huge in the development of our understanding of our solar system this was..... At that time....Certainly contrary to the teachings of the church [earth was the center of the universe, blah blah blah, until they got embarrassed into coming out otherwise....in the freakin' 60's, as Joe remembers], who resisted his conclusions for
years.
He also used the same method to prove the existence of what we call black holes, by the way.
At any rate, LaPlace brought attention to himself in Napoleonic France because he used what was then called [still sometimes, in fact] an orrery, which essentially was a working model of our solar system, much like what we see in science museums today, but the difference from other models being used by his peers was...........It was seen, for the first time, from the outside.....
So, as Joe remembers, LaPlace was summoned to the palace to either- and the stories vary-bring set of his recently completed books laying out all of his discoveries [called, by the way, if anyone would care to begin a real education, Celestial Mechanics, which Joe thinks you can find online as part of the Guttenberg Project, not sure though] or, a version of the aforementioned orrery. I would bet that Napoleon, being the ridiculous little murderer that he was, wanted the toy, but who knows ?
So, as the story goes, Napoleon demanded to knoow why the figure of, or a least a representation of god wasn't included in the model.
LaPlace replied, "Je n'ai pas besoin de cette hypothese".......
Which Joe believes means..... "I do not need that assumption."
Neither do we.
Joe appreciates 424's faith, but he doesn't need his own. Truth will suffice.
Joe will return, just for fun, to our talking points later.
June 25, 2008 at 5:31 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
424now (anonymous) says...
Re: The Bhagavad-Gita, Skip the book of gods and refer back to later when they are mentioned later simply for clarification.
June 26, 2008 at 11:54 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
424now (anonymous) says...
Heard of the principles and not the man. So I did the research and now I know of Pierre-Simon de LaPlace
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre-S...
June 26, 2008 at 4:54 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
424now (anonymous) says...
"Laplace went in state to beg Napoleon to accept a copy of his work, and the following account of the interview is well authenticated, and so characteristic of all the parties concerned that I quote it in full. Someone had told Napoleon that the book contained no mention of the name of God; Napoleon, who was fond of putting embarrassing questions, received it with the remark, 'M. Laplace, they tell me you have written this large book on the system of the universe, and have never even mentioned its Creator.' Laplace, who, though the most supple of politicians, was as stiff as a martyr on every point of his philosophy, drew himself up and answered bluntly, 'Je n'avais pas besoin de cette hypothÃse-là .' [I did not need to make such an assumption.] 'Napoleon, greatly amused, told this reply to Lagrange, who exclaimed, 'Ah! c'est une belle hypothÃse; ça explique beaucoup de choses.' [Ah, but that is such a good hypothesis. It explains so many things!]"
June 26, 2008 at 6:14 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Joe_Mama (anonymous) says...
Joe thinks it only explains things to the ignorant.
June 27, 2008 at 11:23 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
424now (anonymous) says...
I believe Lagrange was dismissing Laplace's model due to its lack of a theistic component. I also believe Laplace's model was and still is a standing model.
Do I misinterpret Joe's post?
June 27, 2008 at 12:02 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nibbler (anonymous) says...
Joe-mama,
I came across a man the other day and he told me about how he was saved and came to know Jesus.
I thought of you after he talked to me because what he told me does not use the Bible to prove the Bible as you say.
The first thing I noticed about this man is his right hand was missing.
I asked him what happened to his right hand.
He told me when he was a teenager about 30 years ago he was at home with a friend. They were in the garage reloading shotgun shells and they thougth it would be fun to put some of the powder in a piece of pipe with one end open to use as a crude cannon.
June 29, 2008 at 11:02 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nibbler (anonymous) says...
continued
When they lit the fuse the pipe ruptured through the wall of the pipe in the expolsion. He said his hand was just shreds of meat. He said as soon as he saw his hand he thought "what a stupid thing to do". He went over to his house carrying what was left of his hand and even in all the pain of the moment trying to not get blood on his moms carpet. He went into the bathroom and put his hand under the faucet and turned on the water.
He said the pain increased severely as the water hit all the raw nerves and he pulled his hand out. His friend who was barely hanging onto sanity came in then and wrapped a tourniquet around his wrist joint. He remembers his friends face going through all kinds of severe contortions as he wrapped his wrist next to the shredded flesh.
June 29, 2008 at 11:12 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nibbler (anonymous) says...
continued...
Then the shock, and panic started to set in. He told me the ambulance was on its way as he sat on the couch in the living room. He said he was scared to death. Shock was setting in the pain was severe. People were arriving and running around adding to the fear he was feeling. Then he remembered many years ago the family use to attend church. He enjoyed going to church and remembered they taught him who to call on when he was in trouble.
He told me he said "Lord Jesus help."
June 29, 2008 at 11:21 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nibbler (anonymous) says...
continued...
Then he said he heard a voice behind him say, "I am here, I have been waiting." and he felt a hand on his left shoulder pressing gently but firmly on him and he felt all the fear, panic and pain leave out of him. He said he was sitting there on the couch with his shredded hand and felt only peace and joy.
He was touched by the Holy Spirit.
June 29, 2008 at 11:29 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nibbler (anonymous) says...
One might argue that this kid was just having a "spiritual experience" based on his childhood upbringing around a few born again christians.
To that I would say Praise God!
because God responded in a tangible physical way to this child who cried out to him in his fear and pain and delivered him.
June 29, 2008 at 11:39 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Joe_Mama (anonymous) says...
Joe would respond to that rather gruesome and pointless story thus :
Good thing the person in that story decided to rely on a tourniquet, a tool brought to us by medical science, rather than just sitting there and praying everything would be OK.
Ironic that this person's longevity can be credited to science, and that nibbler would somehow equate this person's extrasensory experience, no doubt brought on by shock and loss of blood, to some sort of god.
Remember, this god, being omnipotent - supposedly - could have prevented the accident in the first place.
This god - supposedly - could have healed him afterwards.
Joe wonders why god doesn't heal amputees.
Because he can't.
Because he doesn't exist.
June 29, 2008 at 1:52 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Joe_Mama (anonymous) says...
Joe thinks 424 may have misunderstood.
Joe's point was that introducing a god into the equation adds nothing, and is only an explanation for things we are too ignorant to understand.
That is referred to as the "God of the Gaps" theory, in which we give responsibility to things we don't understand to a "god".
Unfortunately for the devout - actually fortunately, it's good for everyone in the long run - , as we learn more and more about how our universe works, the less "gaps" remain for a "god".
June 29, 2008 at 2:02 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
424now (anonymous) says...
Ahh, here is where my particular belief comes to light.
You have heard me say I do not agree with a majority of organized religions. You have heard me state that I believe a majority of the religious written works out there need to be taken for their moral and ethical values not their historical accuracy. You have heard me say I believe in God, Christ and I believe that there is a living God at work in this cosmos we inhabit.
I propose that God created this entire construct in the flash of an eye.
I equate the big bang to "Let there be light". I believe we are the children of God in that we are from God. We are from God as is the whole of creation. I propose that the cosmos is not only God's creation but God in a physical form of which we are an integral part. Not only is God in the physical but the ephemeral, unseen and unknown too. God is in the attainable and the impossible. There is no place that God isn't. I believe we are more than stardust.
Now all the previous is my belief. The preceding comments were my opinion and nothing more. I have stoked the coals and I contentedly continue on my twain.
July 1, 2008 at 3:44 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Joe_Mama (anonymous) says...
424 my friend.....Why isn't it enough to just be stardust [a word, in this context, that the wonderful Carl Sagan coined] ?
There's no need to make it more than what it is. Especially in the absence of any evidence that a supernatural being exists.
I don't get it.
July 1, 2008 at 4:26 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
424now (anonymous) says...
Hey Joe!
I only disagree with "There's no need to make it more than what it is."
I write to you from a place where there is a need. A desire deep within my soul to connect and converse with God allmighty. I can't prove to you the he is there. My simple personall experience is another in a long line of stories that appear to indicate that he is. These are all subjectuive and quite possibly misstaken. However That inherent desire dwelling within me will not allow me to forsake my faith.
It is a spiritual drive.
It is my faith.
July 1, 2008 at 5:27 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Joe_Mama (anonymous) says...
Joe would make these couple of observations.....
Joe is a lot more forgiving and understanding of 424's position than many other atheists or agnostics. joe has been - mentally - where 424 is now. However, Joe got over it and is much happier for it.
Secondly, Joe would say this about the concept of "faith"....
Joe thinks faith, at it's best [and it rarely is], leaves otherwise kind and rational people, like 424, incapable of thinking rationally.
Joe thinks Mark Twain described it perfectly when he wrote, ""Faith is believing what you know ain't so."
July 2, 2008 at 8:49 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
424now (anonymous) says...
Ah, but I will never suppose to know that absolute truth about the origin of the cosmos. At least not with the information currently available. To date observations deal with everything post "Bang" What was pre-bang?
July 2, 2008 at 10:25 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Joe_Mama (anonymous) says...
Joe has no idea, as is true with all scientists.
Therein lies the principles of honest inquiry. Science, with all the evidence it has found regarding the origins of the universe, could be proven wrong in some aspects. And honest scientific inquiry would welcome that.
Religious, or faith-based belief starts with an assumption, totally unfounded, and then tries to find evidence to support that assumption. And it has failed utterly, so far.
Which is why Joe calls himself an agnostic, because he believes pure atheism - at least as we define it, although the common definition is incorrect - is very hard to prove, and perhaps intellectually dishonest.
July 2, 2008 at 10:41 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Hadleyburg_Press (anonymous) says...
Science = "I'll believe it when I see it"
Religion = "I'll see it when I believe it"
Again, the only thing I trully believe in, is doubt.
HP
July 2, 2008 at 11:05 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Joe_Mama (anonymous) says...
Good old Hadley
July 2, 2008 at 12:18 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
424now (anonymous) says...
Yup.
July 2, 2008 at 12:29 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
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