Our View: Planning for housing

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The Steamboat Springs City Council faces perhaps its most important challenge in working with Steamboat 700 LLC on plans for housing developments west of the city.

Steamboat 700 LLC is a consortium of developers who purchased 700 acres that had been owned by Steve and Mary Brown. The Brown property has been considered the linchpin in Steamboat's housing future, since it makes up about 90 percent of all land in the West of Steamboat Springs Area Plan. For years, city and county officials have agreed that it is the most logical site for the development of affordable housing on a broad scale, but there could be no movement on the housing front until the land sold.

On Thursday night, more than 170 people came to Olympian Hall to get a glimpse of preliminary plans for the property. Some of the people were developers and Realtors. Some were city officials. But the overwhelming majority were simply homeowners or prospective homeowners, eager to see what options might open for them in the future.

So far, Steamboat 700 LLC and its project manager, Danny Mulcahy, have done all the right things.

Mulcahy has embraced building 20 percent of all housing units as deed-restricted affordable units, as the West of Steamboat plan requires. Beyond the affordable housing, he has said the group wants to develop neighborhoods with housing in reach of working families. Plans include a village center with retail, including a grocery store.

That's music to the ears of many.

But there's a difference between conceptual plans and what gets built. The Steamboat market is undergoing a significant expansion that most never anticipated. Take, for example, the Silver Spur subdivision, which Mulcahy often cites as a model for the type of housing Steamboat 700 intends to deliver. At the turn of the century, Silver Spur featured a handful of modest single-family homes, most of them modulars, selling for less than $350,000. But as the lots sold out and available homes became scarce, prices in Silver Spur soared.

The last phase of Silver Spur features several homes of 3,000 square feet or more. A home in the neighborhood is on the market for more than $1 million and several others are under contract for just under that barrier. The days of finding a home for less than $500,000 in the neighborhood are behind us.

What's happened in Silver Spur is a natural evolution of Steamboat's housing market, but it's doubtful that county officials anticipated homes would become this pricey this quickly when the subdivision was approved in the late 1990s.

That's the City Council's challenge as it works with Steamboat 700 LLC on development plans. We know the city of Steamboat Springs needs what Steamboat 700 is proposing - an increased supply of attainable housing and new retail on the west side of town. But the speed at which this development occurs will be critical. Go too slowly, and the upward pressure on home prices will continue unabated and short-circuit Steamboat 700's vision; go too quickly, and the influx of new inventory could disrupt equity and appreciation that many Steamboat homeowners have worked to build.

At Thursday's meeting, Councilman Towny Anderson made a telling statement. "It took us 106 years to get where we are now," Anderson said. "And now we're going to nearly double in size in 20 years. It deserves considerable thought."

We could not agree more. We like what Steamboat 700 LLC is bringing to the table, but we're counting on the City Council to make sure this critical growth plan comes together the right way.

Comments

another_local 7 years, 4 months ago

Deed restrictions are not a panacea. In the end, they are a bad deal for the buyer in comparison to conventional ownership. In any case, deed restrictions should "sunset" for owners who stay in their homes for some length of time like 10 years or more so that they can gain from the ownership in a meaningfull way.

One approach that would prevent the movement to higher prices such as was seen at Silver Spur is to limit the size of the homes on some lots. Smaller lots and smaller homes will not rise so quickly to the stratosphere. It is important that a significant amount of the development that is NOT deed restricted be of a nature that will be within reach of paycheck earners while still appreciating over time.

Another option would be for the housing authority to buy a significant number of lots and lease the lots to homeowners who would build NON DEED RESTRICTED open market homes but without the land cost. The lease on the land would cover the debt service on the land purchase. Combine this with a high level of density and a cap on home size and you will end up with moderate home values but maintain free market appreciation that is crucial to personal wealth over time.

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id04sp 7 years, 4 months ago

Look at Aspen. Lots of cheesy little houses on small lots over there. Guess what they go for?

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ThreeJobs 7 years, 4 months ago

Another Local,

See how complicated things get when you try to fix a BAD idea?

Silver Spur prices are where they are because DEMAND has greatly exceeded SUPPLY. Why? Because the City Council has LIMITED supply. They haven't approved a new subdivision since the Silver Spur in 1998!

The City Council got a F in Economics 101. When Supply exceeds Demand the price goes down. By limiting supply with all the attempts to control the market they HAVE DONE MORE HARM THAN GOOD.

Bottom line is that you can't have it both ways. If you limit growth (supply) and people what to live here (demand) then you got what you got. Rapidly rising prices.

The best thing the city council could do to make housing more affordable is to GET OUT OF THE WAY and let the FREE Market level things out. Let Steamboat 700 move forward.

Unless, ofcourse, it was their plan all along to limit supply to insure sky rocketing real estate prices? Hummm......

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id04sp 7 years, 4 months ago

Everybody needs to stop and take a look at what real estate is doing across the country. Any area that has jobs and incomes to support it is experiencing huge increases in housing costs. People are buying just to get "something" they can still afford, and many are going house poor as a result.

Retail clerks, civil servants and school teachers in other places don't live in $500,000 houses. Forget about $1M.

The problem with the local market is that Steamboat and the surrounding area are highly desirable to people from outside. If you are living in a $1M two-bedroom apartment in Manhattan, wouldn't a stick-built house in a subdivision in Colorado look like a desirable retirement home? You bet it would.

Local rates of pay which depend on the tourist dollar simply cannot support the income required to buy a $700,000 house. On the other hand, there are easily 700 people standing by to sell their modest homes in the New York and New Jersey areas and bring that, plus their retirement incomes, to Colorado.

Locals are going to pay top dollar for the homes rejected by outsiders. That's how it is. The more desirable custom homes with views, etc., are going to bring high purchase prices from outsiders.

There are plenty of places in this country with income tax rates high enough to make living in a resort town, and paying resort town prices, desirable. Some people would have MORE disposable income if they moved here.

The local desire to provide affordable housing is just not going to happen. The free market will see to that. If you want to be able to afford a nice house in a nice subdivision, move down to Denver, or Kansas City, etc., and get a real job. You can go skiing on your vacation. That's what all the outsiders used to do before they could afford to buy second homes up here.

Routt County does not have the economy to support wages to service the debt on $700,000 mortgages for working people. The long-term answer is one dirty seven-letter word: Commute. Every house built by 700 LLC will have people from other places, who don't have to go to work every day (i.e., retired, or who work remotely via the internet) standing in line to buy.

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zirkel 7 years, 4 months ago

A naive question from someone who has never studied economics or the real estate market:

If the free market is left to it's own accord, how will entry-level housing be provided in Steamboat? It seems to me that builders will build what provides the greatest profit -- that is, high end customs homes and townhomes for second home owners. Just how will the free market allow incentives for builders to build homes for residents who need them the most?

If someone can please enlighten me. Thanks!

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id04sp 7 years, 4 months ago

Zirkel,

Entry-level housing must be paid for, just like any other. It costs just as much to build an "entry level" home per square foot as any other home.

HUD housing has provided "entry level" digs for low-income people in other parts of the country. The government spent money to provide housing, and then rented it out below the local market rate.

Entry-level housing is available in Craig. The commute is no longer than in most other parts of the country where working people live far from their jobs. That's just how it is.

The question is not, "Where is the entry-level housing in Steamboat?" It should be, "where can I afford to buy a house?" Once you find "where," go "there."

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routty 7 years, 4 months ago

Deed restrictions are one tool for permanent housing affordability but why doesn't anyone talk about apartments as another piece of the puzzle? For the newly-arrived to Steamboat, or the young "transitional life phase" resident of Steamboat fill many of the service jobs in town, and many of whom need affordable housing and but can't buy or don't want to buy. . .doesn't rental apartments make sense? Apartments should be part of the supply but nobody's talking about it.

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id04sp 7 years, 4 months ago

Zirkel,

The flaw in your question is that you expect people to build homes for residents who "need them most."

What makes an intentionally underemployed person "needy?"

What logic says that a person who could live and work within their means elsewhere shouldn't do so?

If we were going to build houses for "needy" people, I think the wounded soldiers from Iraq and Afghanistan would be the most deserving. Why not let THEM enjoy the benefits their blood paid for? Holding down a job with an artificial arm or leg would appear to me to be a real disability worthy of special consideration.

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buck 7 years, 4 months ago

Deed restricted housing will result in a new type of middle class - the home-owning slaves to Steamboat. This is exactly what the chamber and many local businesses want - long-term, locked in employees who cannot move and cannot quit their jobs. It has happened in Denver, and I'm sure many other places. Someone buys a home that is both deed-restricted and subsidized by the government. If demand slows down, the government can now subsidize each home even more, effectively lowering the price of a new home. So Joe buys a home subsidized $30k by the City. Demand drops in half the next year, but the City still has the same pot as last year to subsidize housing, so now the house next door is subsidized by $60k. Then Joe gets a good job offer elsewhere, has twins, or needs to move to be closer to is aging parents, but cannot sell his home for his 100% mortgage. Foreclosure and ruined credit is the only way to move. It has and still is happening in Denver.

The only solution is free market housing with policies that allow an appropriate amount of growth. In fact, if you eliminate growth policies and let the free market deal with it, we wouldn't even be talking about affordable housing - except for those Socialists that were screaming about affordable housing in the '70s, when most homes were under $50k.

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thecondoguy1 7 years, 4 months ago

there is some terrific thinking going on here, this is great input from a lot of angles............

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zirkel 7 years, 4 months ago

id04sp,

From my perspective, I see a flaw in YOUR reply with respect to a person being "intentionally underemployed."

I would argue that most people just aren't smart enough to earn $100K/year, or to flip real estate, or have other pending life issues like raising a family that prevent them from being financially secure. I'll bet many contributors to this forum who argue from your point of view are themselves financially secure and/or (second) home owners.

But, as I understand your perspective, because I earn $12/hour, have no health insurance, and will never be able to own a home in Steamboat -- it's my fault.

Sbvor's intro to Marxism should provide some interesting reading tonight.

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Zalobar 7 years, 4 months ago

We are surrounded by Lands owned by the Govt. Correct? BLM, Forest service, State Parks and what ever have you of Public lands. Along comes the Yampa Valey Land trust. Effectively reducing available development land in and around SS thereby being much of the cause of skyrocketing realestate values. Who are the Gainers in this missguided venture? The people living on the surrounding hillsides looking over acre after acre of the pristine Yampa Valley Land Trust Holdings. Im sure that these lands are also off the property tax roles as well. Another negative side effect of social engineering gone awry. Although I wouldnt trade all those hay fields for tract homes, You?

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zirkel 7 years, 4 months ago

id04sp,

OK, I've read your comments a little closer.

I just don't agree that the kind of community a free market will create is right. People shouldn't have to commute from Craig to teach your kids or to take care of your parents at the hospital. I just see that as being inherently wrong. And selfish.

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Matthew Stoddard 7 years, 4 months ago

Zirkel- Just ask SBvor which Socialist programs he/she uses, such as Social Security and Medicare. It's funny to see a vein pop online!

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another_local 7 years, 4 months ago

I have to say that, while I rarely agree with sbvor, I think he is right on point in this case, perhaps blunt and borderline rude, but right never-the-less.

With general construction labor paying $20 an hour and even the most basic trades paying twice that and more, adults making $12 an hour are making a choice.

Most people in Denver commute 30-60 minutes or more. Commuting from Hayden, Oak Creek or Craig is no different.

Start earning $20 by changing jobs, build that to $50 by learning a skill that is worth more and don't spend all the money, save as much as you can. (BTW, $50 per hour is 100K per year) Sure there are folks that have been given a golden ticket, but most people that own homes did it the old fashioned way; they earned it.

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id04sp 7 years, 4 months ago

Zirk,

I understand your argument completely.

If you want to make your life better, get a job for $12.00 per hour in Craig and live over there.

Anybody is free to visit Steamboat and ski, or bike, or whatever they want during their time off, and you don't have to spend $700,000 on a house five miles from Mt. Werner to make it possible.

It's not about smart. It's about being willing to work for what you get. Settling for $12.00 per hour is simply not a way for anybody to get ahead, so either find a way to make more, or be content with what you have.

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Matthew Stoddard 7 years, 4 months ago

Anyone see the Sinclair sign on the door saying they were closed this morning due to lack of employees? Guess people stopped settling for $12/hr.

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id04sp 7 years, 4 months ago

Kielbasa,

Didn't see it, but you may be right. Will 'Boaters pay $4.92 per gallon to support the staff at the filling stations? I guess we'll find out.

If a gas station stays open sixteen hours a day, and the clerk is making $20.00 per hour, how much gas does the station have to sell to make the $350 or so needed to pay the help? (Yeah, it costs the employer more than he pays the help because of the employer's social security tax, workmens comp, etc.). If the difference between cost and selling price is 20 cents per gallon, that means the station has to pump 1760 gallons every day just to pay the help. 88 cars have to come in for 20 gallons in 16 hours, or about one fill up every 11 minutes all day long.

P.S. Look for "self checkout" at a supermarket near you. I've seen it at Wal-Mart and Lowe's in other towns recently. You either learn how to check yourself out under the gaze of a single employee who watches four checkstands, or you wait in a big ol' long line.

When it comes to stuff like gas and groceries, rich people don't spend much more in a month than us regular people spend. As the rich move in, and housing prices go up, it just gets to be unaffordable for retail employees to hang around. The stores can't raise prices enough to pay what it takes for employees to live in town. You're going to need a debit card to buy gas, which means -- uh oh -- no more taking cash under the table to hide it from the IRS.

On the plus side, I was getting tired of listening to all the checkers in Safeway jabbering at each other in Russian anyway. It's sorta rude, ya know?

People are worried about us going "Aspen?" Heck, we're going "Santa Barbara!" Can't wait until my personal concierge meets me at the door, takes my shopping list, and selects my purchases while I go for a "happy ending" at the spa.

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Matthew Stoddard 7 years, 4 months ago

ID- City Market has a U-Scan with 6 machines, but unfortunately, WalMart doesn't. I waited 15 min for a Mgr override in the "Speedy" line today.

I doubt people will pay much more for gas. I'd be surprised, but since just as many people are driving this summer (at least in Steamboat) at $3.25 a gallon, you never know.

Still, when a corporate-owned gas station/convenience store can't even find enough clerks, what does that mean for the hospitality industry which already has a shortfall of employees? Seeing that Steamboat is a hospitality industry-town, it doesn't bode well.

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another_local 7 years, 4 months ago

Just because a gas station has national brand gas does not mean that the station is owned by the national brand.

Not being able to hire an employee for $12 is not the same as not having $12 employees available. Some businesses can not hire at wages at which other businesses have no problems. We don't really know why there was no employee at the station.

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Matthew Stoddard 7 years, 4 months ago

another_local-

I could be wrong, but I believe the Sinclair in question is corporate owned. Otherwise, whomever owns it would have been there working the register, I would think, if they really wanted the business to stay open.

Plus, this isn't an isolated incident; it's just hit a different type of business. The paper is full of want ads just waiting to be filled. With all the supposed illegals taking everyone's job, why is the paper full of people looking for employees?

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id04sp 7 years, 4 months ago

Kielbasa,

you are 100% right

I never go in City Market. I'll drive to Hayden and go to the little market over there first. As a matter of fact, I prefer the market in Hayden. The owner is in there working with the staff, and it shows.

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id04sp 7 years, 4 months ago

Kielbasa,

following up . . .

Steamboat has become a real estate town. When I first moved here, you never saw a fat person in town, because almost everybody was an outdoorsy ski bum type. Not so anymore. Fatties everywhere.

Steamboat is becoming a town that will have to support the needs of the affluent second-home and retirement home owners who are taking over. Tourists are becoming a bother to the full-time residents. Our world would be a lot better if you had to drive another 5 miles out of town to get to Mt. Werner. Squaw Valley and several other Lake Tahoe area resorts used to be that way; don't know if they still are.

Steamboat's various bedroom communities are going to have to develop their own retail stores and services and staff them with "local locals." Put a market in Oak Creek for example, and staff it with people who live there.

It sorta makes sense. Go to any big city's downtown area. Do you find a grocery market there? Not usually. Gas stations? Rarely.

I guess it's a case of business going where it can afford to operate because it can't stay close to the demand. When sources of supply dry up, the demand pulls from more distant sources.

Like Hayden.

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Zalobar 7 years, 4 months ago

Interesting blogs, I must agree with sbvor, Socialist programs are doomed from the get go. While making many FEEL GOOD, They exacerbate the underlying problems. Catering to those who wont do for themselves what others, like the roofer has done only invites more selfimposed NEEDY to demand more from those programs and from those who are working their asses off to keep up or excell. Someone has to pay for those programs directly or indirectly. Let those programs funding be totaly volunteer. Subscription wont work, never has never will. If everyone wants to ride the wagon who will pull it? George Bernard shaw said " The rational man will adapt to his environment, The irrational man expects to alter his environment to suit his needs. Therefore all progress depends on irrational men. Rather than getting into some cushy socialist program because its the easy way out go out and be irrational. Many more will beneit from your efforts in the end. Like the roofers employees, his customers, the tax collector, the community. Because he is providing a needed community service, But for profit. Not on the backs of taxpayers who dont even know some such socialist program exists.

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thalgard 7 years, 4 months ago

sbvor is not right, some social welfare programs do work...just take a look at sbvor's social security check!

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Matthew Stoddard 7 years, 4 months ago

LOL, Some more! Everyone knows you have Social Security. Don't want the number; don't care. You use the program you condemn.

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sunflower 7 years, 4 months ago

Sooner or later svbor is gonna need a big hug......maybe sooner.

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Zalobar 7 years, 4 months ago

Anyone who has attended school, public or private has been subject to a load of brainwashing, slanting in favor of socialist tenants. PUBLIC Education? Our Representative Republic is being eroded from within by frevent socialist republic admins. This is why so many of us are asleep at the wheel when voting by default to support these programs. Religion is another socialistic sleeper. Bravo to SBVOR for knowing the difference. Hugs to you.

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Matthew Stoddard 7 years, 4 months ago

So what Zalobar said is EVERYONE who went to school has been subject to brainwashing. Gee...looks like Zalobar's brainwashing went awry. Zalobar thinks everyone but SBvor can't think for themselves.

That's pretty hilarious when SBvor can only point to links to other peoples' thoughts & theories.

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zirkel 7 years, 4 months ago

That guy has more links than a downtown construction site fence!

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to_teach_or_not 7 years, 4 months ago

I am looking for some local advice. I have been offered a job to teach in Steamboat. According to my salary I'll be earning $27/hr. Based on a number of the comments I've read, I get the feeling that I am better off working elsewhere, starting a new career or plan to live in Craig. Would you all suggest I take the job?

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Zalobar 7 years, 4 months ago

Im Lazy! Human Nature! Also a Fatty! Was skinny most of my life then one fat year El-blimpo! Dont know why. Just happened. maybe cause of an age/genetic marker. Dont really care enough to trouble my mind about it much. Dont judge others who are Blimps on feet either. Not anymore. Just like me. So get over it. Anyway, Back in the middle 80s in a book store in Aspen, nice old house downtown, the livingroom was the book place. I pulled a book off the shelf. the one next to it came with and fell on the floor. I picked it up and bought it and took it home. been reading it ever since. Its only 70 something pages or so. Just today I found a link to this author. He was on acid when he wrote this or so I would guess. No one in their Right mind could come up with this stuff. Take Shaw, Rand, Budah. Duh, Marx, Muhammad, Jesus, who ever and throw them all in the can. This guy IS the WAY, The LIGHT, The LIFE. I dont know where he came from or where he went to, and he never asked me for a nickle or said if Im not with him Im against him. You can find him here. Please Dont be too crule when making coments. Yes Im talking to id04sp and kielbasa. spvor might be a little crube in presentation sometimes, but not personal bashers like you guys. "In any event" To quote a dear teacher friend from Cleveland, Try this link and please do comment. To the teacher thnking of moving here, maybe this will help you analize yourself to a decision without any of us having to tell you what to do.

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id04sp 7 years, 4 months ago

to-teach,

Routt County is a wonderful place to live as long as you arrive with enough money to obtain housing. It is incredibly expensive. Everything is higher because we are off the beaten path. Groceries are always a big shock to people who come from larger towns.

Basically, it's a nice place to visit if you like the mountains and are outdoorsy. There are a couple of six-point bucks that come through my yard every evening to get a drink and eat the wildflowers. You just don't get that in Orlando.

Please obtain a firm commitment for housing you can afford before you arrive. Also, if you decide to live in Hayden, Craig, Oak Creek, Phippsburg, Yampa, Clark, etc., you will need reliable four-wheel drive transportation for the winter. A subaru would do the trick. You might get away with front wheel drive and studded snow tires, but sometimes getting out of your driveway is the hardest part.

Plan on at least 25 cents per gallon more for fuel than most other places.

Before I moved to Routt County, I did my homework and knew what things cost. Some things were higher than where I came from, and some things were lower (like state income tax). I never held an hourly wage or salaried job in Routt County, which is both good and bad (good when you can jump on an opportunity, bad when business is slow).

Come prepared. Know what you're getting into. Realize that housing prices are going to continue to increase (despite the nationwide housing slump) because places like Aspen are well over one million and Steamboat is becoming first choice for an alternative.

$27 per hour is enough to live comfortably if your housing is covered some other way. That's the rub.

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id04sp 7 years, 4 months ago

Zalobar,

I will try the link when I have a chance.

Several years ago I met a guy in Steamboat who was absolutely ENTHRALLED with the Celestine Prophecy. He was absolutely CRUSHED when I told him it was all fiction.

Star Trek. Star Wars. Vampire stories. The state lottery. People are always looking for something to grab onto to make a religion and believe in. Judeo-Christian traditionalists will tell you that a soul bound to a false God is a victory for Satan -- no further temptation required.

"Personal bashers?" How so? Does pointing out the folly of your ways offend you? The most common mantra of the sadder but wiser is, "nobody told me."

So, why do I post? Partly, because I care. Some people need a wakeup call. Also, I'm waiting for batch jobs to run, or taking a break to clear my mind and go back to some complex problem. I'm a very lucky person in that my job involves figuring out how to do things that have never been done before. No two projects are ever the same. I'm in a constant state of not knowing what to do, and having to figure it out as I go along. I wish there was somebody around giving ME advice about what to do next, without me having to make all the mistakes along the way.

We are all God's children, and I want every one of you to be safe and happy. Sometimes that makes me point out buffoonery in the hope that people will be offended enough to remember the lesson, even if they hate me in the process. (It's an old Drill Instructor trick, by the way. Give them something to hate; it will bind them together against you.)

I used to be a straight-shooter guy who believed in the law; truth, justice and the American way. Then I moved to Routt County and learned about lies, injustice, money laundering, cheating, and obstruction of justice. Some people who post here (Dundalk, for example) think I'm a conspiracy theorist with no facts to back up my claims, but in fact, I have everything in writing and the facts just don't make a difference when you are dealing with a corrupt state court system. That's just how it is, I guess. The problem is that it doesn't make a very exciting story unless you're the guy being robbed by the system in return for, at least, political favors.

As long as nobody is bleeding, law enforcement doesn't care. Federal on down, the criteria for criminal prosecution is violence, or the threat of violence. Anything else, they're too busy to bother unless it's making the news. That is their official, stated policy (Google up the Department of Justice policy and see for yourself).

Don't take what I write personally unless you know I'm on the mark. If I am, then maybe it's YOUR problem, not mine?

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Matthew Stoddard 7 years, 4 months ago

Zalobar- What you are missing about SBvor's posts is that SBvor also uses attacks on anyone who disagrees with what's left of SBvor's mind.

See, in SBvorland, words like "Liberal, Socialist, etc.," are the equivalent of bomb-tossing. If you say "sh!t" or "doo-doo" both mean the same thing. One is just more "proper" in open conversations to use. They both mean something that stinks. Any word can be used as bashing if the intent is behind it. If I called you a piece of zuchinni and I happened to hate zuchinni with a passion (which I do) that would be me calling you a name that I associate with something I hate. May not mean anything to you personally, but it gets said with the same vitriol. That's why SBvor uses those terms...you can say them without getting censored, but they mean the same thing to SBvor.

Now: to the heart of SBvor's "debates." There is no such thing debating SBvor since when you find something to dispute SBvor, it gets rebutted by saying it's "liberal science" (junk is the term SBvor prefers) or something to that matter. That means it doesn't matter the science involved; it just doesn't agree with SBvor's already made up mind. That's the mind of a fanatic. SBvor keeps challenging people to dispute the links SBvor provides. Then, SBvor puts the extremist blinders on and disputes it by repeating over and over what SBvor holds to be truth. Repeating over and over is not debating: it's just being a parrot.

The main problem with SBvor's science (since Global Warming is SBvor's pet peeve) is that it's rooted in looking at the past. It doesn't look forward, with new variables such as 6 1/2 billion beings changing the way you have to look at things in the past. Every science has to adjust to new evidence and variables. SBvor doesn't believe in that.

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Matthew Stoddard 7 years, 4 months ago

Why aren't you working as an interpreter for the U.N.?

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Matthew Stoddard 7 years, 4 months ago

I have no clue what you just said. My eyes started to bleed trying to read that post.

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id04sp 7 years, 4 months ago

I only speak a little French, and I don't like them very much.

Did you know the French have seventeen distinct ways to say, "I surrender?"

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Zalobar 7 years, 4 months ago

Thank you both for the enlightenment. I take to heart your words, esp. because they are directed to me. I must be lucky or living head in sand, I havent seen directly anything about lies, injustice, money laundering, cheating, and obstruction of justice. But then I get my news from the Pilot - Today grins, and I spend most of my time working or staying home. I agree, Blood or Media are the spurs of the justice system. Money problems (thievery) forgery, etc. Oh well. The lawyers dont even want to work on many of these problems, unless they are sure $$ winners, Like in divorce disputes. I dont always believe all of what I spew. But my opinions do need some other slant,(feedback) so I can wiew from new perspectives. Housing. A noble cause to want affordable housing for the working class. The initiatiors of this program must have something to gain (loyal or trapped employees/workforce). Now if the gainers are also the $ backers for this program then all is well. But the moment they expect everyone who pays taxes to support said program, we have altruism. Taxing those who dont qualify for the housing being created, either they make $10 too much @ year or make too little to qualify for the financing required, are all paying for this program to help those who gain. The empoyers and qualifying participants. Any time conscription is resorted to for the benifit of a few, many who are trying to squeek by are hurt. Rand knew this and was very outspoken against this altruistic socialism. Volunteer socialism hurts no one. I do at times volunteer $/effort without a thought of whats in it for me. This is not altruism, because I wouldnt do it if I couldnt take care of myself first. Geese that lay golden eggs will keep laing them as long as we dont eat these Geese. People who are just getting by with out relying on social programs are those Geese, making them pay higher taxes for social programs they cant participate in will Force THEM out of the work force that the program is trying to secure. They will move to a better economic climate. So we help one family with a social program and lose five families Geese whose backs were broken by higher taxes and were eaten. Then the Gainers get a new 3+Mil Tennis center, New Golf clubhouse. New Community center, new schools for THEIR kids, remember the golden egg laying workforce geese and their kids were eaten. The Yampa valley land trust buys another 10,000 acres to protect it from development. The gainers living on the hillsides wont have to look down on the Geese who arent here anymore. Then a whail of thundering proportion comes accross the Pristine valley, from the employing chamber members. Where have all our employees Gone? This is what I hear comming from SBvor. He/She like Rand has trouble getting this accross because of their passion for their beliefs. It is frustrating. What IS left of SBvors Mind?

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id04sp 7 years, 4 months ago

He said the difference between generosity and altruism is whether or not you pay the bill. Generous people pay for benefits for others with their own money. Altruists pay with other peoples' money (tax dollars). I don't know if it's right, but that's what he said.

Then he said the people who make just a little too much to qualify, and those who don't quite make enough, still pay for the benefits obtained by the people who do qualify. It's not the rich and affluent who pay most of the taxes, but the wage earners who cannot take advantage of income-sheltering schemes.

He also said that building a tennis center, golf clubhouse, etc., using tax dollars only benefits the people who can afford to use them, but everyone who pays local tax pays for the facilities. So, like, the guy pumping gas who pays sales tax is funding the golf facility used by the guy who sells real estate or makes loans at the bank.

The final result is that the people who work for low wages will be forced to move away in the end, leaving all the service jobs unfilled, and there will be nobody to cut the grass on the golf course, sweep the tennis courts, clean toilets in the community center and serve lunch at the schools.

So everybody learn RUSSIAN! They're coming to Colorado in DROVES, and they will work hard and get ahead and ultimately run the place by sacrificing and investing. It's the American way.

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Zalobar 7 years, 4 months ago

id04sp Thank you?!! For translating my rant into english. I am one of the Geese, Having things pretty well figured out here, and am comfortable. I still cant afford to use the Golf, Tennis, facilities, or have the time or energy. I make just a litte too much to qualify for other benefits. Dont use Liftup, dont need it. So, any more pressing social issues that will cost more in taxes very well could send me packing. Off to a better economic climate. Every time realestate values double, every 2 or 3 years? Your housing dollar is worth half as much. Unless you are a gainer who could buy 10 lots at Heritage Park and 10 more at Silver Spur, There is no way to keep pace with housing. The only thing left is to move on. Or start qualifying? I gotta keep these things short. Did your eyes bleed too?

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ColoradoNative 7 years, 4 months ago

I don't understand all this talk about I should be able to afford a home. If you can't afford one there are hundreds of other cities in Colorado to live in. Nobody forced you to move here.

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Matthew Stoddard 7 years, 4 months ago

Actually, ColoradoNative, my parents forced me to move with them when I was 12yrs old. It was my choice to stay since it's where I grew up.

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