Community Party to usher in holidays

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What: 30th annual Community Holiday Party

When: 6 to 8 p.m. today

Where: Howelsen Hill and Olympian Hall

Cost: Free

— Winter Carnival and the Fourth of July parade are among the Steamboat Springs traditions that Chris Wilson holds close to his heart, but what he finds most special is the annual Community Holiday Party.

"As you will find in community, there are some special times during the year when you get the chance - like the summer concert events - to meet with folks you don't see every day," said Wilson, the city's director of Parks, Open Space and Recreational Services.

"It's one of the first community gatherings of the holiday season at Howelsen," he said.

About 250 people are expected to gather tonight for the 30th annual free party to usher in the holiday season at Olympian Hall at Howelsen Hill.

"It's also one of the few times of the year you can tube over at Howelsen," Wilson said.

The party, which is open to everyone in the community, also will include hot cocoa, cider and cookies, along with caroling and a Nativity scene.

Children can visit with Santa Claus and share their wish lists, said Brooke Lightner, recreation coordinator for the city.

"Seeing kids with Santa is always the highlight for me," she said. "I am usually with them front and center, and hearing that exchange between kids and Santa - that is always special."

Lightner noted that recreation staff will be on hand to take photos of the Santa visits. Interested families can have copies of the photos for free.

Wilson said his favorite Community Holiday Party memory isn't quite as innocent as sitting on Santa's lap, but just as much in the spirit of the holidays.

"What I remember most is twisting my back while catching kids coming down the tubing hill," he said. "Seeing all the families out there in the cold, and how excited the kids are, just makes the day perfect."

Wilson added that no sleds or metal runners will be allowed on the hill because of safety reasons.

"It's a very good example of how we are a community in Steamboat," Lightner said about the party. "It's definitely a family-orientated event where everybody knows everybody, and it's fun to see the kids come year after year."

Comments

wissbecklarry 7 years ago

1487 Angels can dance on the head of pin.

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Michael Brumbaugh 7 years ago

A Nativity scene and caroling (will there be Hanukah carols as well)? Will we be having Menorahs, Yule logs, pagan symbols, and displays of other religious heritages there as well? Santa has been successfully commercialized and is no longer really considered religious, so no issue there. If this is truly a "community" holiday party (and not a Christmas party), hopefully it will be all-inclusive.

Or, could we just leave the religious trappings to the places of worship and stop the government from promoting the idea that this is a Christian town ONLY?

Hey, I love a good party, but I don't think this kind of exclusiveness is ok for our City government to display...

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Michael Brumbaugh 7 years ago

Calling folks names doesn't really get us anywhere in a civil dialogue, now does it?

Happy holidays to you, too!

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kingsride 7 years ago

sbvor; keep telling it like it is and keep up the good fight. Merry CHRISTmas to you as well.

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JustSomeJoe 7 years ago

Yes, yes. Let's get into the "my religon is the best" discussion. My idol can kick your idol's butt and don't forget it. Wait, let me throw in a quick link to a unabomber-like screed somewhere on the internet, maybe even one of my own. Because if you can find it on the internet, it's the truth! You will read the truth at that link and be converted to the truth.

The Truth

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grannyrett 7 years ago

mountainmike-your rights end right where they start stomping all over mine. Have you read the 1st amendment at all? "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for redress of grievances." Freedom of religion is a right in this country. No where in the first amendment does it say that we do not have the freedom to celebrate Christmas. People of all faiths have the right to celebrate their holidays. Unless you have a different calendar than I do, December 25 is Christmas day. It does not say Holiday-it says Christmas. If you do not want to celebrate the real reason for this holiday, that is your right, just as it is mine to celebrate it with God in my life. Study the reason for the first amendment. In other countries, people did not have a right to worship as they wished. Some were persecuted for their beliefs. This amendment said that the government could not tell us how to believe, so that even you mountainmike can believe whatever you want. It does not give you the right to stomp all over my beliefs.

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Michael Brumbaugh 7 years ago

Ah, my dear friends. Straw people are SO easy to destroy, aren't they? I could really care less about Marx's ideas. My ideas are my own, after many years of examining many angles to our world. Please, again, stop putting words into my typing.

None of you have any idea what my particular spiritual beliefs are, so please don't sit in judgment over them (Jesus certainly had MUCH to say about that!). One doesn't need to tear down others' points of view to show that yours is the "right" one.

The issue here is simple. If our Parks and Rec or whoever in our City government determined that we should have a Nativity scene and carols at the party, then THEY are the ones "establishing a religion" there. If they had an open invite (which I never saw advertised anywhere, did you? Is there such a thing?) for ANY religious symbol to be promoted at the party, then more power to them! I am DEFINITELY in favor of "freedom of religion".

Is it really that hard to keep discussion online civil?

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CoJustice 7 years ago

Government stays out of religion, (separate church from state), but religion does not stay out of government, "In God We Trust", "One Nation Under God". Nearly every country has some kind of religion based foundation. I hope people that don't like the foundation that this country was build on, can find somewhere to live that will give them some peace.

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mud 7 years ago

Just as it is easy to know what svor is going to say about any article involving affordable housing, your response to any article that even remotely touches on religion, culture, race or sexuality have become just as predictable. Its almost as if you're a character from a book of stereotypes.

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Hadleyburg_Press 7 years ago

You seem to claim that "America was founded on Judeo-Christian principles and thus the government can promote those principles. The history of the U.S. Constitution shows, however, that the Founding Fathers intended to create a government that is neutral toward religion. At the Constitutional Convention, the delegates did not open their sessions with prayer and never acted on a proposal to do so. And when a minority faction proposed that Christianity be recognized in the Constitution, their views were also rejected. Instead, the document produced at the Constitutional Convention granted the federal government only limited powers - and did not include any power to enter the field of religion. As James Madison explained after the Constitution was drafted but prior to its ratification by the states: "There is not a shadow of right in the general government to intermeddle with religion." Nevertheless, at the state conventions held to ratify the Constitution, demands were made to have this lack of power enshrined in a specific constitutional guarantee of religious freedom. So Congress produced the First Amendment and sent it to the states for approval. The result was a secular Constitution that does not contain the words God, Christianity, Jesus, Christ, or Judeo-Christian. The Constitution's only references to religion serve to exclude it from the government, by providing that there shall be no law respecting an establishment of religion, no law prohibiting the free exercise of religion, and no religious test for any public office. Thus, they opposed the doctrine of the "divine right of kings," which had enabled monarchs to wield absolute power in the name of God for centuries. The framers intended that political power flow upward from the people, rather than downward from the heavens or those who claim to represent the heavens. Not surprisingly, therefore, in 1797 the U.S. Senate unanimously approved the Treaty with Tripoli. That document was presented to the Senate by President John Adams, who in 1776 had served with Thomas Jefferson on the committee assigned to draft the Declaration of Independence. The treaty contains the statement that "the government of the United States of America is not founded in any sense on the Christian religion. . . ." When considering this document, the Senate was composed of many persons who had participated in the Constitutional Convention and the state conventions that ratified the Constitution. If they had thought the U.S. was founded on Judeo-Christian principles, there is no way they would have allowed such language in the treaty. The lack of a religious foundation for the Constitution was obvious at the time of its adoption and caused theocrats to revile the document. "

The Founding Fathers' precious gift of church-state separation should be cherished and upheld. This principle has given Americans more religious freedom than is possessed by any other people. "

Merry Christmas!

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Hadleyburg_Press 7 years ago

CoJustice, "One nation under god", as versed in the Pledge of Allegiance, was inserted by Congress after lobbying by the Knights of Columbus in 1954. Is this the foundation that you were thinking of?

Again, Merry Christmas to you and yours.

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Hadleyburg_Press 7 years ago

Sbvor, My word limit had been reached, ergo no salutation. All seriousness aside, go to the party and build a snowman or better yet celebrate the works of Christ the mortal and other such noble humanistic philosophers. Just be nice to each other, show mutual respect, common courtesy, dignity, and caring. Who really needs a god to be able to share these virtues in a true community anyway?

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Hadleyburg_Press 7 years ago

Sbvor, What does the nativity scene represent?

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Michael Brumbaugh 7 years ago

sbvor, "Nobody has said one thing about your 'spiritual beliefs'. " How about "Christian hating face" and "Christian hater"? I guess I couldn't be Christian then, could I? You definitely ruled out ONE spiritual tradition I might be part of (as though you knew), so yes, you were saying something about my spiritual beliefs.

And, it's so funny that twice you referred to me as a Christian hater, when many of my remarks on several threads include Jesus' teachings as a guide for my own life. Again, straw people, dude, are so easy to knock down! You're not really seeing me, you're seeing some construct you've made in your mind.

So, if you had REALLY read my post, you would have seen that I called my philosophy my own AFTER saying I had looked at many things in the world...um, that would INCLUDE various philosophies, economic systems, etc. Again, please base your comments ABOUT ME on what I actually say, not some boogie man you've dreamed up.

mud -- if your comments were directed at me, I'd be REAL interested to know what kind of "stereotype" I fit into. Many of my comments I make (and I have put VERY few in these online discussions, compared to those who seem to LIVE here) are questions to clarify or requests for us all to think deeper about issues, instead of beating people over the head with their ironclad beliefs.

I don't feel a great need to PROVE I'm right about anything. I speak simply from my thoughts and my experience. That is what a person of "character" would do. I easily admit when I don't know all the answers.

I don't call people names, I try and stay open-minded and civil, and I've been called a Christian hater, Illiberal, Left-winged, victim, whiner and a patsy. None of which could be farther from the truth to anyone with even a cursory knowledge of me. As Hadley says, perhaps we can all get farther in the world if we are indeed respectful, courteous, and caring. If that's a "stereotype", mud, then so be it!

By the way, the Party was certainly a lot of FUN!! Hope you all got to go...

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Michael Brumbaugh 7 years ago

For the record, sbvor, I wasn't making a "case". I wasn't trying to prove someone was right or wrong. I was raising a question and stating an opinion.

You're correct in that I gave no facts about WHO made the decision to have a Nativity scene because I didn't know this. But, I'm hoping to discover that tomorrow. I'll keep you posted!

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Michael Brumbaugh 7 years ago

sbvor -- I love you, man! And, god bless us every one...

In the name of the joyous holidays ahead, big Lefty hugs and kisses to you and all of my beautiful name callers and Christian-hating order of "ILKS" out there -- victim no more! MWAH!!

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Hadleyburg_Press 7 years ago

Sbvor, Does the nativity scene depict the birth of Christ the man or Christ the son of god? Assuming that it is the latter, would you be okay with a billboard on public land, erected by public officials, that stated that Christ was the son of god? Do you think that Jewish taxpayers might have a problem with this sign? So you would then say let them erect a billboard tauting their beliefs. Invite the whole pantheon of beliefs for that matter, until we have all of these competing billboards. How could all of the various beliefs of the taxpayers trully be represented in a non-arbitrary and non-capricous way?

Seems like a silly waste of public space to me and certainly something the government should keep clear of don't you think?

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dimwitiguess 7 years ago

I think the founding fathers of our country were not white they were a darker color, maybe a darker shade of red. They respected their country until someone took it from them and rewrote history. The Indians did have their god or gods and their beliefs. You all need to remember that this was not the whiteman's land until they stole it.

Of course Steamboat will have a lovely community gathering with their dogs, and children, and mutual caring and love of the season that's the reason. Then they'll all show up here and berate others and run off their mouths anonymously (as I) and then they will attend church as expected of good christians, and then blog here and put down everyone who doesn't think like they. And then they'll go to church and the winter carnival, and smile and love one another until they get in their cars and cut off everyone they can to get one car ahead to get away from the crowd. ANd then they'll go to church and beat their breasts and pray outloud and beseech their god for a quick victory over the enemies that face us even if it calls for torture, then they'll go to church again, and later show up here on the blog again.......

Get my point? their is no santa claus there is no caring for everyone in the community. There are lights on the trees but no lights in the hearts of those who think they are the community. They represent themselves alone certainly not their god. God is too much of a burden to deal with day in and day out, minute by minute. She's there to support your own beliefs only and not others.

Pray to your god(s) that this community wakes up to its own agony. Anyone reading this so-called paper and these self-righteous bloggers know what kind of community we really have but then again, I'm just the same old dimwitiguess.

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Hadleyburg_Press 7 years ago

Dimwitiguess, What one sees often depends on ones vantage point.

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dimwitiguess 7 years ago

Yes, and your god sees everything, doesn't she - omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent? What do you think her vantage point is? Heaven?

dimwitiguess

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sportzmama 7 years ago

WHO FLIPPIN CARES ABOUT ANY OF THIS RHETORIC!!! People, let's celebrate this time however we see fit!!! Man I moved up here to get away from this kind of thing! None of this really matters. What matters is being with the one's you love and celebrating how you see fit.

Here's what matters: I have a young friend who turned 21 last Friday, therefore he's not on his parents insurance anymore, and on Saturday he had to be evacuated to Denver due to kidney/liver failure and at this moment, a young man who was healthy when I fed him and 5 other friend Thanksgiving dinner, is on a ventilator and in an induced coma, fighting for his life due to a very rare disease! His mom went from one moment wishing him a happy birthday, to the next moment fighting with United to get a decent fare to get from NY State to Denver so she could be with her youngest child who might not have made it through the night.

That's what's important not what kind of symbol or manner in which you choose to celebrate. The holiday celebration was for kids and families and no one was mandated to attend. If you don't want to attend, fine, don't attend. But everyone, please remember what is important TO YOU this holiday season and for pete's sake, please stop this silly arguing!

If this celebration was that offensive to you, maybe you shouldn't live here.

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Hadleyburg_Press 7 years ago

Dimwitiguess, I was speaking metaphorically of all of us, not some deity. Sportsmama, You are more than correct. It is a time to reflect on something that we should be actively engaging in at all times, which is to enjoy life to its fullest and to show kindness, compassion, love, and respect to others. I sincerely hope that your friend pulls through.

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armchairqb 7 years ago

Too Chey Sportzmama no wait it's french touche you get the idea. Speaking of what's important this holiday season what about the employee's of the Pirates Pub. Are they unemployed ? just when money gets tight?

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dimwitiguess 7 years ago

sportz,

Move back or don't read any of this. Now you know how nice this town is.

dimwitiguess

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Michael Brumbaugh 7 years ago

Sportz,

Have to disagree with you somewhat on this. Does the issue of our government promoting certain religions over others matter (if that happens)? I certainly think so.

Does it matter as much as someone's life hanging in the balance? I don't think too many people would disagree with you on that one, including myself. Is it as important as our national involvement and assent to possibly torturing other human beings? I don't believe so. Is it as important as trying to find answers to helping those in our society with serious emotional or addiction issues. Not to me. Does it matter to me personally as much as my grandfather's recent death? Definitely not.

Isn't it, though, a matter a degree and priority? It's not just a "this is important, but that is not", is it? We all choose how much time we spend devoted to a situation or event at any given moment of our lives. It's not empty rhetoric. Your issues are not necessarily my own, and vice versa.

How about we agree that you can discuss topics that are important to you and we'll discuss topics important to us. Isn't that more charitable, in this proportedly charitable time of year? It doesn't have to be all or nothing, does it?

I didn't realize that it was for "kids and families". I thought it was for EVERYONE in the community to come together and feel welcome. Why do we need to tell people to "move somewhere else" if we don't like the way they think? Wouldn't it be more productive and charitable to say, "Hey, I don't agree with you, but I'd like to know MORE about what you believe so I can better understand you." I personally wouldn't want to be surrounded just by people who believe exactly as I do.

Happy holidays!

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dimwitiguess 7 years ago

MtnMike, hope you're not Forney. WHERE ARE YOU FORNEY?

Anyway, back to my thought, Had and sportz, I was just depressed this holiday season and I had to work when the biggest celebration of the year was going on and I missed one of the treats of life here in Steamboat. I have no family or children and I knew that if I had gone I would have felt out of place and would have been found with frozen tears running down my frostbitten cheeks. Thank goodness for work! I hope you all had the funnest time. Don't worry about my feelings. It's the family and kids I care about.

Love and joy come to you and to you some mountain dew and think of those bartenders and wait-people not working at the Pirate's. There is no ho, ho, hoing there this season (maybe down on east Colfax though).

God bless you, tiny Tim! God bless us one and all!!

dimwitiguess

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dimwitiguess 7 years ago

Has anyone seen Mike Forney? MIIKKEE FOORRNNEEYY where are you?

dimwitiguess

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foodchain 7 years ago

I mistakenly read this headline as:

"COMMUNIST PARTY TO USHER IN HOLIDAYS!"

...and I assumed that it was going to have something to do with "Affordable Housing" and perhaps no doc 150% financing for those who by no fault of their own are having a hard time making ends meet in this resort town.

Turns out it was just a false red scare. Whew!!!! Calling Dr Freud....

Now that I think of it, Santa does wear Red pjs. Ok....here goes

Dear Santa: I would like you to deliver the deed to some beach front Malibu property for me. And make it fire-proof. G.D. it, I DESERVE it even though I have not earned it yet. It really sucks having to live out in the middle of nowhere where a dinky home in town costs over 1 mil. I want that 6 million dollah beach house, dammit. And an 8 car garage with a lift and a carriage house. And pay all of my insurance while you are at it. Thankyouverymuch.

Merry X Mas, SBvor

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just_tom 7 years ago

Mike,

I'm all in favor of you celebrating ANY holdiay you choose.
So demonstrate the power of your conviction by organizing a celebration of your chosing. I would be very supportive. But in the meantime, why do you need to rain on everyone elses' parade?

Until you demonstrate the power of your conviction through this or some similar positive action, I can only assume that your comments are simply "hate speech" and that you are not very "tolerant". Please prove me wrong!

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Michael Brumbaugh 7 years ago

OK, tom, my friend, I'll bite. Please explain to us how a government entity not promoting a specific religious point of view would be "hate speech" or "intolerant". I certainly don't wish to put a damper on ANY celebration of humanity in its fullness.

And, I'm curious what makes you think "everyone" wants to see a nativity scene at a government sponsored event (that is the specific point I was discussing)? I can certainly see where Christians might want to see that. Can you really speak for "everyone" here in town?

Even if a majority of citizens in our community claimed to be Christian, my question is, should our local government officials promote that particular religion above others? I don't believe it should, based on what I think our country was founded upon. I don't believe government should be in the religion business, and if I'm going to "prove" anything, it would be to work toward keeping religion and the state separate. Please don't twist my words into anything more than that.

Thanks!

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just_tom 7 years ago

Well, Mike I'm glad that you don't want to put a damper on ANY celebration--and neither do I. I think you read a lot more into my comments than were really there--for example I don't claim to speak for everyone in the community, and as I said before I would support your right to a celebration (yes and sponsored by the town). I think the operative word that you missed in a rather common figure of speech was "elses", and yes I am perfectly sure that there are others that believe that somehow government should be kept out of all religions.

But what I find fascinating is that we run into the "my way or the highway" mindset in pretty much every social discourse--I frankly would rather see everyone just relax a little and learn to get along. I hope that clears it up for you. So as I said before where is the tolerance? Christian ideals seem to be under attack and yet Christians are supposed to remain silent. Does this make sense? Liberal treatment applies to all. Why single out Christmas and Christians for "special" treatment good or bad? I'm all for equal treatment when it comes to celebration of holidays. The reason I used the term "hate speech" is because it is pulled out like a bus pass whenever one group or another has something said about it--but it doesn't seem to exist when it comes to Christmas/Christians, etc.

My wife was wondering, "Are you personally offended, or do you know anyone else who is offended by Christmas or Christians? And if not why are you fighting against it? If we are all supposed to be toleratant of other people's traditions and celebrations, why the exception for Christmas." She said that sounds "one-sided" to her. She also suggests that you re-examine history and what the founders of this country believed in and why. She went on to say "You may have your opinions about the founding of our nation, but "thinking" or having an opinion about it is not the same as having accurate knowledge. Study history, and you will find that 'separation of church and state' was to keep the government out of religion, not to keep religion out of the government. The founding father's would have had a fit! No one studies history anymore, they just have opinions...the sign of a nation in decline."

Your thoughts? As I've said I'm in favor of complete inclusion not complete exclusion.

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foodchain 7 years ago

Right now I am really teed off that we did not have a public Ducth celebration on Dec 7. Those of us with family ties to the Low Countries are extremely offended.

I hereby demand a make up public celebration of the Dutch Holiday "SINTERKLAAS", FOR what we failed to celebrate in public THE WHOLE FIRST WEEK OF dEC.

SINTEREKLAAS IS THE DAY Saint Nicholas sails from spain on his big boat with his slave 'Back Pete' in order to reward the good dutch children with oranges in their wooden shoes. The best part may be that the bad kids are treated to nice hell ride in black pete's burlap sack as he beats them with reeds.

funny thing in the news lately is that the uber-tolerant netherlands is trying to downplay its racialist image (black pete) by having petes of many different colors. they call them 'gekleurde piets' but that translates literally to 'colored petes', effectively negating the attempted political correctness. SINTERKLASS! W00t!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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foodchain 7 years ago

dang it.

I STILL read this headline as "COMMUNIST PARTY TO USHER IN HOLIDAYS"

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justathought 7 years ago

After reading these comments I believe it is time for the government to get out of the holiday business, period. Not just religious holidays like Christmas and Easter but all holidays. NO one in the USA will get paid days off at the taxpayers expense nor at the business owners expense because there will no longer be any LEGAL holidays. It is beyond comprehension that so many will except all the blood and gore in movies, xxx rated material, and illegal use of drugs (among other things), but find Christ in Christmas to be offensive. What the hell do you think Christmas is all about? During all of this political correctness you are trying to take away our identity and our traditions. Those of you spouting the Constitution as an excuse to take religion out of Christmas could interpret murder to be one of your inalienable rights if you cared to. The nativity scene, angels, candles, etc. have been a part of government's Christmas decor for a lot longer than my years on this earth and I know of no one that has died from it's presence on the courthouse lawn, nor do I know of any "government churches" being formed because of it. We are being pushed into a corner by political correctness and those idiots that can read whatever suits their purpose into the Constitution, if we want to remain One Nation Under God it's time for the "American People" to push back.

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just_tom 7 years ago

As Tom's wife, I want to make a comment on sbvor's statement about: "anyone with half a brain would know that this agenda has nothing at all to do with being inclusive."

So what is the agenda?

I think Christ says it best when in John 7:7 He says " The world...hates me because I testify that what it does is evil".

Please refer to that verse for the complete context. Tom also adds: "So much for Jesus not being judgemental." This is why some people want to eliminate Christmas and anything having to do with Jesus.

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grannyrett 7 years ago

Just_tom's wife-At last a voice of reason. Thank you! The first amendment was given to us so that the government could NOT force us to belong to any ONE religion. We have the right to believe anything we want. We have the right to gather to celebrate our beliefs. We do not have to meet in secret for fear of prosecution for our beliefs. That is what the first amendment gives us. We are a diverse nation-one with many beliefs. That is how it should be-that is what the first amendment guarantees us. To say that the founding fathers did not include religion in their plan is to be misinformed. Why else would they have included in the Declaration of Independence that-ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL and that they are ENDOWED BY THEIR CREATOR certain rights? The founding fathers were men who believed in God. They just wanted everyone to be able to be able to practice their beliefs if a manner of their own choosing. If you don't want to believe, you are free to do that too. That's what the first amendment gives you. But, while you are not believing, don't forget that others do have the right to believe, and practice their faith. That is what we are guaranteed in the first amendment.

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Hadleyburg_Press 7 years ago

Please give me one example of how Christians are being persecuted in this country excluding mental case anomalies? If every example you site in some way involes my taxes then I suggest that your are asking for me to fund YOUR belief system. Since paying my taxes is not voluntary you are using the power of government to force me to fund your belief system. I can't opt out. And yes, I pay for public land, and its use for the promotion of religion does offend me. One thing I will do is offer up my son for military service to protect your right to engage in whatever belief system you want in the private sector. I value the US Constitution to this degree, do you?

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just_tom 7 years ago

Does the Orwellian doublespeak ever end? I find it interesting that people have such a hard time believing that Christians are more than willing to have all religious beliefs recognized and yes funded by government.

Furthermore, if we are going to talk about the so-called "proper" role of government in religious/moral issues, why do you believe that there aren't things that Christians have to fund that they don't believe in? For example, why do we fund sex education in the public schools which promotes a particular and un-Christian moral framework? Where is the "choice" argument when it comes to this?

What I have learned over the years is that liberal language simply isn't, and that the language has been so thoroughly corrupted, that it is almost impossible to have civilized discourse when having different viewpoints and opinions. What is apparently difficult for all people to understand in this politically charged environment, is that everyone has something that is funded by the government that we don't particularly like or agree with, but I don't take my marbles and leave the playgroiund when this happens. The political system is played by the rules, where we elect people to represent us, we pay our taxes, and we allow the cauldren of differing viewpoints, much as we are doing right here, serve to pull society in the direction that (to the extent that we can) bring people the fairest treatement possible, however imperfect.

I will support your right to petition your government for any change that you believe is appropriate, and I hope you allow that for people with differing viewpoints. And finally, we all have the right to vote to change our representation to one that suits us.

For those who like to go further into this subject, I recommend reading "Language in Thought and Action". Further for a non-Christian's viewpoint on this issue, I suggest reading Ben Stein's comments on this. As I'm sure some of you know Ben, besides being an actor, author, and businessman, is a former presidential speech writer, and lawyer. I think you will find his ideas interesting, and well supported whether or not you agree with them.

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Hadleyburg_Press 7 years ago

Sbvor, Are you trying to tell me that if I don't allow my tax dollars to go the promotion of Christianity on public land that Western Civilization is in jeopardy? That's a strech even for you my friend. I think maybe you are confusing the European approach of cultural pluralism with anti-christianity. I too am against cultural pluralism as expressed by say the French. I also agree that culture and religion are entertwined as to be almost inseperable. I don't see that level of Cultural Marxism occuring here least of all government sponsored. Perhaps somewhat in todays Democratic camp, but still don't you think that our culture has more to offer than some religious expression. Can't our morality,ethics , and sense of justice stand on their own regardless of the religious and non religious historical tributaries that gave rise to them? Remeber, that the founding fathers also drew from the ancient Greek and Roman political structure. Are we to worship polytheism in their honor. And better yet, are the tenents of christianity so frail as to require government assistance to prop them up? If the power of the belief system lies within the individual then why the commotion over public pronouncements? Doesn't this by its very nature imply prostilization? So here we are back to square one.

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Hadleyburg_Press 7 years ago

Just-Tom, In response to your comment about public education all I can say is that I agree. This is why I support the voucher program. To you I assume, science is a belief sytem, and you should have the ability to not have to fund it or expose your children to it if it violates your belief system. As for the morality element, I would suggest that your morality is subjective although you and I would probably agree on many universalities. I would also challenge you to show me a study that shows that children who have attended parochial school versus public have lower teen pregnancy, drug abuse, arrest records ect. You would need to take into account economics, ethnicity, US generational longevity, and geographical location (urban vs rural).
Regardless, I deeply value the opportunity to civilly discuss these and other issues with you.

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just_tom 7 years ago

Well Hadleyburg_Press, you read a lot into my comments, but I didn't give you much to go on, so here's some clarification.

My training is in the hard sciences, and in business. I have three degrees and over 9 years of university education. I firmly believe that science should be based on the scientific method, and that some of what is being passed off as science cannot be "proved" by the standards imposed by the scientific method and so some but not all does in fact fall under the category of belief system.

So far as public education goes, I don't need to supply the burden of proof that you seek. The assumption in the United States is that citizens are granted "by their creator" certain "inalienable rights". Unfortunately, our society seems to be drifting more and more into the attitude that people (more specifically people's children) are the property of the state--and this is anathema to me.

As for my beliefs, I prefer to stay as much on topic as possible, and since my beliefs don't fit on a bumper sticker-I will keep it down to the essentials.

I hope we'll continue the discussion, I am enjoying it.

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Hadleyburg_Press 7 years ago

just_tom, My apologies for assuming your stance. I agree with you on the topic of education. It is a conundrum to have a publicly funded system "teach" our children. And yes, even "science" is subjective and never absolute as we both have learned.
Could you elaborate on your comment that: "I find it interesting that people have such a hard time believing that Christians are more than willing to have all religious beliefs recognized and yes funded by government." Thanks

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sportzmama 7 years ago

You know what y'all? I might just move from here as you people don't have enough to do except complain! The Chamber of Commerce doesn't market this community correctly at all! I have never in my life seen so much babble about something that was meant to be enjoyed by all. YES it was billed as a community festival, but c'mon you freaks - if you took the time to go to it as I did you would have seen mostly families with little kids. If you have enough time on your hands to pick apart every single word someone says, then something's wrong. The point of my first post was to combat this kind of stuff and relate a life and death story to hopefully shock some of you bored people back into the meaning of the holidays - it's about families and celebrating however you choose to celebrate with those you are close with - NOTHING ELSE!!!!!! I have no ulterior motive here.

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays.

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shortbus 7 years ago

Please allow me to apologize for the fellow Christians posting on this. I really do believe that they mean well and are fervent (as am I) about their faith.

I absolutely believe that Jesus Christ is God incarnate and did come to Earth in human form to show us the only path to salvation and communion with the God (big G) of all existence.

I also believe that the teachings of Jesus Christ were inclusive and are very relevant for our world today.

As for how my fellow believers have treated you (mountainmike, sbvor, etc.) I am truly sorry and do sincerely apologize for any misrepresentation of who Jesus Christ is, that does not represent the God that I know and by my own free will serve.

However, I do wonder why you are so passionate about a Christian symbol when you so viemently defend others right to show or be free from theirs.

If it has no relevance to you, who cares if a community of individuals want to show it during a season and a holiday that has been adopted to represent the birth of one of the greatest men in history (ok, so I may have some bias on that one).

Had, I think you said it best "It is a time to reflect on something that we should be actively engaging in at all times, which is to enjoy life to its fullest and to show kindness, compassion, love, and respect to others."

Wow, that sounds like the kind of thoughts that got a man crucified 2,000 years ago... that and telling the popular religious culture of the day that they "just don't get it". I am all for celebrating the birth of a man like that (even if it isn't his real birthday).

I would gladly have my taxes go to support that. Before you start asking if I would pay to have statues Buddah and other gods on public display, I would argue that I do. Every time I go to a multicultural exhibit at any museum within the US I pay for it.

By the way, Santa Claus was also there... talk about a pagan god. A man flies across the world in one night breaking in to homes undetected to deliver toys to boys and girls; oh yeah he is several hundred years old.

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just_tom 7 years ago

Dear shortbus,

For whom are you apologizing?

Tom's wife

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just_tom 7 years ago

Hi Hadley,

No problem on the misunderstanding....that's life on the internet.

To answer your question, I don't think we have to go much further than these postings to see where I'm coming from. From the start to the end of this thread, we have seen (from both sides) pressumptions/assumptions about what others think/feel/believe. At the end of the day, the motivations for this are probably all over the map, some benign, and some not so benign.

As this is my last posting for awhile, I wish all who have posted the best for the season and the upcoming year.

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Hadleyburg_Press 7 years ago

just_tom, Merry Christmas to you and yours. My eggnog is calling as well!

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Michael Brumbaugh 7 years ago

sbvor -- Did you miss me so badly that you had to sling mud this filthy to get me to respond? Sorry, mate, on this one you definitely crossed the line.

Yes, I stated I am gay in comments I made related to a Pilot article a year ago mentioning a gay stereotype. I am open by putting my name out there on this forum (more than can be said for most here). Please explain how in the world does that relate to this particular discussion thread? And, please, if possible try and do it without referring to Marxist anything...

My "ID" here comes from the fact that when I first moved to the West from back east, I loved the mountains so much that I tried to pick "mountainmike" for my then new Hotmail address, but it was already taken. The closest was "mountin" which I thought was kinda cute and colloquial. I use it for many of my "nom de plumes" or IDs in electronic communications, and you are the FIRST person I've encountered who saw something that wasn't there. If there's a "double entendre", my friend, that is simply something you "imagine".

You really gotta stoop that low to "win" an discussion? Sheesh...

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Matthew Stoddard 7 years ago

Mike- maybe the 'bor will try out for Monty! LOL!

Actually, 'bor- you had stated before you were agnostic. Waaaaayyy back when you were Pilotwatch.

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Michael Brumbaugh 7 years ago

Cool as a cucumber here, buddy...but thanks for the condescension, nonetheless...

And, Matt, I'd welcome anybody, even sbvor, to audition for "Monty"...cause I'm inclusive...

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grannyrett 7 years ago

had-I agree that our tax dollars go to fund things that most of us do not like. It angers me that we send foreign aid to countries that hate us and would like to see us gone from the face of the earth. I would disagree that you "offered up" your son to military service. I too have a loved one in the military. That was a decision my grand daughter made of her own free will. We, as her family did not "offer her up. There is a reason for the season. If God had not "offered up" His Son to save humanity, there would be no Christmas. So, however you celebrate this time of year, God is the reason behind it. If that had not happened, there would be no Christmas. Merry Christmas everyone.

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AmebaTost 7 years ago

I'm sorry God we let you down, when we let all these freaks in our country and let them change it for the worst. No wonder schools have so many problems, no more pledge of allegiance. Maybe it's time for you all you folks to go home now!!!

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just_tom 7 years ago

Ameba Tost

Some encouragement. You don't have to apologize to God for what humans do or don't do. He is bigger than that. He is in charge:

In Isaiah 46:10 God says:

"I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say : My purpose will stand and I will do what I please."

In John 16:33 He tells us as Jesus Christ:

"I have told you these things so that you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world."

He tells us in 2 Timothy 3:1-6 about godlessness in the last days.

"But mark this: there will be terrible times in the last days. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobediant to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God - having a form of godliness but denying it's power. Have nothing to do with them."

Read Jesus' report on the end of days in Matthew 24 for further enlightenment.

For God's end plan for redeemed humanity in Rev. 21: 1-8 John the Apostle reveals:

"Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying: 'Now the dwelling of God is with men and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain for the old order of things has passed away.' He who was seated on the throne said "I am making everything new!' Then he said 'write this down, for these word are trustworthy and true.'

You don't have to fret about the way things are going, just believe God at His word. Things will get worse before they get better, but these present sufferings will seem insignifigant when compared to an eternity in the presence of God on an uncorruptable earth.

Take Heart!

Tom's wife

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matmaster 7 years ago

Good luck folks...looks like you could grind the grin out of anything...including a happy holiday. Peace!

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just_tom 7 years ago

matmaster

The grace (unmerited favor), mercy and love of God for humanity IS something to grin about, and is more valuable than anything else in the world. That's why Christmas IS so joyous, we are released from the penalty of our sins by Christ's sacrifical death on the cross for repentant humanity. That's why believers in Jesus as the Jewish Messiah (God come to earth in flesh to reconcil man to God as promised in the Old Testament) celebrate His birth. Could God show any greater love for us than that; by taking on flesh and dying in our place so we can live forever with Him? His mercy for our imperfections. Sounds great to me. A believer won't have to pay for his imperfections because Christ already did. Fatih is believing God at His word. Any good I do now is a result of gratitude for what God did for me. Pardon is available for anyone who asks it of God.

I wish you that blessing of peace and joy for this Christmas.

Tom's wife

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STEMBOATwannabe 7 years ago

Steamboat Whatever your holiday is.... have a merry time.

When you see that college kid working at one of the Steamboat establishments, wish them a happy holiday. I couldn't afford to pay for the airfare home this year for my child. He/she is working the holiday in Steamboat. I will miss him/her very much. My child being able to work the holiday so you can spend it with your family is my gift to you. Please appreciate my child in your wonderful town this holiday season.

To all..... Have a Happy, Merry!

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